Chauncey Billups vs Jason Kidd

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Who would you want in your team?

Billups
7
21%
Kidd
19
56%
is this a serious question? Kidd is an ATG!
8
24%
 
Total votes: 34

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Re: Chauncey Billups vs Jason Kidd 

Post#21 » by prophet_of_rage » Fri Jul 31, 2020 2:31 pm

Ryoga Hibiki wrote:
prophet_of_rage wrote:
Lost92Bricks wrote:Funny how being a winner isn't important to you here.

Chauncey not only won a championship and Finals MVP in 2004 but he outplayed and eliminated Jason Kidd out of the playoffs on the way. Then in 2005, he was one Robert Horry shot away from another Finals MVP.

In 2006, Chauncey and the Pistons won 64 games and Chauncey was top 5 in MVP voting. Kidd wasn't anywhere close to that.
Both players won championships as key pieces. So that's not really a factor. We're looking at 5 year peaks. So we're looking at talent. Billups isn't as talented as Kidd. Nice try being slick, though.

If we're talking equal talent then you look at winning. That's why the Horry has to be better than Jordan arguments are pathetic attempts at discrediting the winning argument.

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Billups had a much, MUCH bigger roles than Kidd in those finals teams. It's just ludicrous to suggest otherwise.

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Neither was a clear number one. Billups wasn't the focal point of the offence or defence. He just orchestrated it all and exploited a 4th quarter mismatch.

That Pistons team was great because the whole was greater than the sum of its parts. No superstars really but each complemented the other and a perfect defensive bench.

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Re: Chauncey Billups vs Jason Kidd 

Post#22 » by Leslie Forman » Fri Jul 31, 2020 2:54 pm

Ryoga Hibiki wrote:Am I the only one going for Billups?

Nope. Billups for me too.

I think he might be the most underrated historical player ever. You look at how much of an impact a guy like Kyle Lowry makes, well, Billups was better than that. It's not a coincidence these super portable, high IQ, high efficiency scoring point guards just seem to have a tendency to be on winners.
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Re: Chauncey Billups vs Jason Kidd 

Post#23 » by Ryoga Hibiki » Fri Jul 31, 2020 3:14 pm

prophet_of_rage wrote:
Ryoga Hibiki wrote:
prophet_of_rage wrote:Both players won championships as key pieces. So that's not really a factor. We're looking at 5 year peaks. So we're looking at talent. Billups isn't as talented as Kidd. Nice try being slick, though.

If we're talking equal talent then you look at winning. That's why the Horry has to be better than Jordan arguments are pathetic attempts at discrediting the winning argument.

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Billups had a much, MUCH bigger roles than Kidd in those finals teams. It's just ludicrous to suggest otherwise.

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Neither was a clear number one. Billups wasn't the focal point of the offence or defence. He just orchestrated it all and exploited a 4th quarter mismatch.

That Pistons team was great because the whole was greater than the sum of its parts. No superstars really but each complemented the other and a perfect defensive bench.

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Well, he was the best offensive player and the one taking over in 4th quarter, and that makes you either the best or the second best player in a team.
Moreover, it's something Kidd had no chance replicating, in any stage of his career.
And you're comparing this to Kidd to averaging 9/7 and playing very good defense on Dallas? He was a role player at that point!

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Re: Chauncey Billups vs Jason Kidd 

Post#24 » by Texas Chuck » Fri Jul 31, 2020 4:44 pm

therealbig3 wrote:I think if both came up today, Billups would get a lot more support in this comparison. Kidd would probably be seen in the same light as Rubio.


I get what you are trying to say, but you took it way too far. Kidd was just a vastly superior player to Rubio in every aspect. And Kidd was a passable 3 pt shooter as far back as 03-04 which is only halfway through his career. He's 10th in history in 3 pointers made and 9th in attempts so its not like those make numbers are bolstered by lots of bad 3PA when he couldn't shoot.

I love Chauncey and he fits great in this modern NBA where wing-sized players are more and more the point guards. He can play off-ball with great effectiveness and still provides a secondary playmaker. Him with Lebron or Luka or Simmons or Harden or Giannis or Butler or Kawhi just seems perfect.

But Jason Kidd was just a special basketball player. On whole different level. And one Rubio has never remotely approached.
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Re: Chauncey Billups vs Jason Kidd 

Post#25 » by Texas Chuck » Fri Jul 31, 2020 4:48 pm

Ryoga Hibiki wrote:
prophet_of_rage wrote:
Lost92Bricks wrote:Funny how being a winner isn't important to you here.

Chauncey not only won a championship and Finals MVP in 2004 but he outplayed and eliminated Jason Kidd out of the playoffs on the way. Then in 2005, he was one Robert Horry shot away from another Finals MVP.

In 2006, Chauncey and the Pistons won 64 games and Chauncey was top 5 in MVP voting. Kidd wasn't anywhere close to that.
Both players won championships as key pieces. So that's not really a factor. We're looking at 5 year peaks. So we're looking at talent. Billups isn't as talented as Kidd. Nice try being slick, though.

If we're talking equal talent then you look at winning. That's why the Horry has to be better than Jordan arguments are pathetic attempts at discrediting the winning argument.

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Billups had a much, MUCH bigger roles than Kidd in those finals teams. It's just ludicrous to suggest otherwise.

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You are suggesting Billups had a bigger role than 02 and 03 Kidd? Uh that's a hard no.

You are suggesting he had a bigger role than 11 Kidd? Maybe, but Kidd played 35 mpg, was the primary point guard and was constantly defending the other teams best offensive players especially at the end of games. He was old, but he wasn't remotely finished.

Not close to much MUCH for damn sure
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Re: Chauncey Billups vs Jason Kidd 

Post#26 » by Ryoga Hibiki » Fri Jul 31, 2020 7:31 pm

Texas Chuck wrote:
Ryoga Hibiki wrote:
prophet_of_rage wrote:Both players won championships as key pieces. So that's not really a factor. We're looking at 5 year peaks. So we're looking at talent. Billups isn't as talented as Kidd. Nice try being slick, though.

If we're talking equal talent then you look at winning. That's why the Horry has to be better than Jordan arguments are pathetic attempts at discrediting the winning argument.

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Billups had a much, MUCH bigger roles than Kidd in those finals teams. It's just ludicrous to suggest otherwise.

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You are suggesting Billups had a bigger role than 02 and 03 Kidd? Uh that's a hard no.

You are suggesting he had a bigger role than 11 Kidd? Maybe, but Kidd played 35 mpg, was the primary point guard and was constantly defending the other teams best offensive players especially at the end of games. He was old, but he wasn't remotely finished.

Not close to much MUCH for damn sure
I am obviously talking about '11, as he mentioned that both won a title in a similar role.
I stand on the "much MUCH", as good as Kidd was during that run for the reasons we know.
The role Billlups had in those Pistons, as the only creator off the dribble and primary closer is just way more important and difficult to fill that the one Kidd was covering at the time, at 37.

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Re: Chauncey Billups vs Jason Kidd 

Post#27 » by Lost92Bricks » Fri Jul 31, 2020 11:06 pm

prophet_of_rage wrote:Both players won championships as key pieces. So that's not really a factor. We're looking at 5 year peaks. So we're looking at talent. Billups isn't as talented as Kidd. Nice try being slick, though.

If we're talking equal talent then you look at winning. That's why the Horry has to be better than Jordan arguments are pathetic attempts at discrediting the winning argument.

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You said "at no point was Billups better than Kidd".

And I just gave you a bunch of years...where Billups was better than Kidd.

And Jason Kidd was a role player when he won a championship, not the leader and star that Billups was.

Billups won Finals MVP over prime Shaq, Kobe, Wallace.
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Re: Chauncey Billups vs Jason Kidd 

Post#28 » by HeartBreakKid » Sat Aug 1, 2020 5:26 pm

Actually, I think Jason Kidd was/is horribly miscasted as a role player since he was clearly past his prime when he was a Mav. If we are talking impact, Jason Kidd must have had the impact of a low tier all-star - he could hit 3s, he was legit as hell on D so at the very least you have a really good 3 and D guy. Typically speaking elite 3 and D guys are pretty much low tier all-stars impact wise, or as good as you can be without being a star.

Add onto Kidd's passing and playmaking ability and it's pretty clear he was better than many players who have been designated as all-star over NBA's history.

Dallas Jason Kidd is very underrated. Some people make it seem like he was taken along for the ride, but he was better than other all-stars who have won rings.
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Re: Chauncey Billups vs Jason Kidd 

Post#29 » by Ryoga Hibiki » Sat Aug 1, 2020 9:22 pm

HeartBreakKid wrote:Actually, I think Jason Kidd was/is horribly miscasted as a role player since he was clearly past his prime when he was a Mav. If we are talking impact, Jason Kidd must have had the impact of a low tier all-star - he could hit 3s, he was legit as hell on D so at the very least you have a really good 3 and D guy. Typically speaking elite 3 and D guys are pretty much low tier all-stars impact wise, or as good as you can be without being a star.

Add onto Kidd's passing and playmaking ability and it's pretty clear he was better than many players who have been designated as all-star over NBA's history.

Dallas Jason Kidd is very underrated. Some people make it seem like he was taken along for the ride, but he was better than other all-stars who have won rings.
3&D low tier all stars?
Let me ask you this, who was batter, that version of Kidd or this year's Marcus Smart?

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Re: Chauncey Billups vs Jason Kidd 

Post#30 » by HeartBreakKid » Sun Aug 2, 2020 4:09 am

Ryoga Hibiki wrote:
HeartBreakKid wrote:Actually, I think Jason Kidd was/is horribly miscasted as a role player since he was clearly past his prime when he was a Mav. If we are talking impact, Jason Kidd must have had the impact of a low tier all-star - he could hit 3s, he was legit as hell on D so at the very least you have a really good 3 and D guy. Typically speaking elite 3 and D guys are pretty much low tier all-stars impact wise, or as good as you can be without being a star.

Add onto Kidd's passing and playmaking ability and it's pretty clear he was better than many players who have been designated as all-star over NBA's history.

Dallas Jason Kidd is very underrated. Some people make it seem like he was taken along for the ride, but he was better than other all-stars who have won rings.
3&D low tier all stars?
Let me ask you this, who was batter, that version of Kidd or this year's Marcus Smart?

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Yes, a really good 3 and D guy will be better than the worst all-star, typically speaking. There are years where Danny Green was better than DeMar DeRozan who is a perennial all-star. If Tony Allen could hit 3s at 37-39% at high volume he would have earned huge contracts and been a very dominant player for someone who can't dribble worth a salt. He would have been better than say, DeAndre Jordan, who most people agree deserved his all-star spot when he was in his prime.

I'm not sure who is better between Kidd and Smart because I'm not that familiar with the 2020 season, I would think Kidd is. Marcus Smart is actually a legitimate defensive juggernaut and the only thing that held him back was his shot selection, so now that is fixed and he stays healthy he is going to have a semi-prestigious career when it's all said and done. It would be unwise to merely look at him as a run of the mill role player. Marcus Smart is a defensive juggernaut, who can run point and can hit 3s to keep defenses honest, that makes him better than some players who's skill set usually resembles a franchise players.

There are players whos play styles are "similar" to a role player but their impact is more of a core player than a supplementary guy. Jason Kidd and Tyson Chandler (at least 2011 version) were better than roleplayers even if they never got the all-star designation (actually, Chandler would get more accolades once he went to NY and the media looked at him more closely).


Look at some of the players this year - Khris Middleton, Sabonis, Tatum, Ingram, Booker, Abedeyo; not all those guys are that impactful, they just have glamor stats or are on highly publicized teams. In fact, someone like Khris Middleton has been labeled a 3 and D guy for years and he was always better than some all-stars (and yes, Middleton is not a real 3 and D guy because he can create, but Smart/Kidd aren't 3 and D guys either).


We have to acknowledge that low tier all-stars are not the centers of their contending teams, they are usually there to help the main guy and the secondary guy. In those regards they're not that different from elite 3 and D guys, just their skill sets usually are.
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Re: Chauncey Billups vs Jason Kidd 

Post#31 » by Ryoga Hibiki » Sun Aug 2, 2020 7:47 am

HeartBreakKid wrote:Yes, a really good 3 and D guy will be better than the worst all-star, typically speaking. There are years where Danny Green was better than DeMar DeRozan who is a perennial all-star. If Tony Allen could hit 3s at 37-39% at high volume he would have earned huge contracts and been a very dominant player for someone who can't dribble worth a salt. He would have been better than say, DeAndre Jordan, who most people agree deserved his all-star spot when he was in his prime.

I think this opens up a more complex discussion that I am not ready to take on now.
I have no problem saying that an elite 3&D is more instrumental to winning than a high usage borderline all star.
But then we should expand the discussion on:
- what is an elite 3&D? what is the 3 and what is the D we are expecting?
- how much more impactful is it than a merely good one? especially from the PG position
- what's the difference between the best and 10th or 20th best? it changes a lot, depending on how hard to replace it is
- how does this compare to Billups, who could fit the 3&D role as well BUT also provide on ball creation at good enough level to be the closer for a contender?
- and, of course how good of a 3&D 37yo Kidd actually was
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Re: Chauncey Billups vs Jason Kidd 

Post#32 » by prophet_of_rage » Sun Aug 2, 2020 5:00 pm

Funny the 2008 poll of this question went handily to Billups. But that was comparing 08. No chance in 5 year peaks. Billups shooting numbers were better but everything else is all Kidd all the time.

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