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Exactly what the title says.

How many of Kobe’s playoff runs would you take over Kawhi’s 2019 playoff run? Please also include the season of Kobe’s you are taking. (e.g. Kobe in 08’ > Kawhi in 19’)

I would take 2001 and 2009.

01, 08, 09

08 is probably about the same level, could see it going either way, but 01 and 09 for sure though.

Not sure if I would take any, but I'd consider 2001, 2008 and 2009.

Maybe my Kobe memory is starting to fade, but I don't recall Kobe every doing anything as monstrously dominant as Kawhi's 2019 run. Even at his best, Kobe could be hot and cold in the playoffs. Kobe's playoff career is much more extensive than Kawhi's, and he had many more big moments and bad moments. But 2019 was a total domination of everyone in Kawhi's path. Yes he faded in the finals, playing injured as the Warriors fell to pieces, but the total body of work... I just don't remember Kobe every being that dominant in one single playoff run. Especially when you think about defense, Kobe's best defensive playoffs come super early in his career, his best offense comes around the end of his prime. Kawhi was having consistently big moments on both ends (even if 2019 is not Kawhi's best defensive year by any stretch) in his big boy championship run.

The bbref numbers say 0. (I'm not in love with these numbers, but I do use them for quick analysis because they are by far the easiest to look up for comparisons across in different years)
Kawhi's advanced stats in 2019 are all individually higher than anything Kobe ever hit across all his playoffs, in any single category.

Kobe's career highs mostly came in the 2009 playoffs.
Kobe PER of 26.8 in 2009 (< 2019 Kawhi at 27.9)
Kobe with 4.7 Win Shares in 2009 (< 2019 Kawhi at 4.9)
Kobe with a BPM of of 9.1 in 2009 (< 2019 Kawhi at 10.1)
Kobe with a VORP of 2.6 in 2009 (< 2019 Kawhi at 2.9)
Kobe with a TS% of .587 in 2006 (<2019 Kawhi at .619)

Some of the 2019 are career highs for Kawhi, but he had a higher BPM, TS% and PER in his 12 games 2017 run before Zaza-gate.

I quickly checked RAPM:
Kawhi's 2019 playoff RAPM: 2.87
Kobe's 2009 playoff RAPM: 2.76
Kobe's 2001 playoff RAPM: 2.34 (led the NBA)
most other Kobe seasons I looked up were negligible (I didn't go through every season, mostly the ones considered his best)

I'd say 09 and maybe 01. 08 is about equal or slightly worse, 2010 is slightly worse.

I would honestly take '19 Kawhi & '06 Wade over any playoff run Kobe had

Zero. Kawhi reached that MJ/LeBron level of inevitability that year when you just knew there was nothing that could stop him from getting to all of his spots and rising up to score whether it was at the rim, the midrange or from three. He seemingly made every single big shot and scored as many points as he needed to or more whenever he needed to. He was just so much stronger and bigger than Kobe. He looked stronger than Giannis, which is saying something. Kobe never seemed unstoppable in this way.

Stan wrote:I would honestly take '19 Kawhi & '06 Wade over any playoff run Kobe had

Why bring Wade into this?

2001 and 2009

Not sure if I'd take any.

And I still think Kawhi's run is overrated.

jamaalstar21 wrote:Maybe my Kobe memory is starting to fade, but I don't recall Kobe every doing anything as monstrously dominant as Kawhi's 2019 run. Even at his best, Kobe could be hot and cold in the playoffs. Kobe's playoff career is much more extensive than Kawhi's, and he had many more big moments and bad moments. But 2019 was a total domination of everyone in Kawhi's path. Yes he faded in the finals, playing injured as the Warriors fell to pieces, but the total body of work... I just don't remember Kobe every being that dominant in one single playoff run. Especially when you think about defense, Kobe's best defensive playoffs come super early in his career, his best offense comes around the end of his prime. Kawhi was having consistently big moments on both ends (even if 2019 is not Kawhi's best defensive year by any stretch) in his big boy championship run.

Kobe's 01 playoff run was not at all "hot and cold", and neither was 09 unless you use his Rocket series against him. Either way, even if Kawhi was a bit more consistent shooting the ball that doesn't mean his offensive impact was automatically higher. The 01 Lakers were historically dominant, and Kobe was nearly as good as Shaq was in those playoffs, that's not something to just gloss over.

Honestly seems a bit disrespectful to call Kawhi's a "big boy championship run" while downgrading Kobe's to something lesser.

jamaalstar21 wrote:Kobe's career highs mostly came in the 2009 playoffs.
Kobe PER of 26.8 in 2009 (< 2019 Kawhi at 27.9)
Kobe with 4.7 Win Shares in 2009 (< 2019 Kawhi at 4.9)
Kobe with a BPM of of 9.1 in 2009 (< 2019 Kawhi at 10.1)
Kobe with a VORP of 2.6 in 2009 (< 2019 Kawhi at 2.9)
Kobe with a TS% of .587 in 2006 (<2019 Kawhi at .619)

Let's be honest these are pretty negligible difference we're talking about, especially considering how much easier it is to score today than it was in 09 or especially 01.

jamaalstar21 wrote:I quickly checked RAPM:
Kawhi's 2019 playoff RAPM: 2.87
Kobe's 2009 playoff RAPM: 2.76
Kobe's 2001 playoff RAPM: 2.34 (led the NBA)
most other Kobe seasons I looked up were negligible (I didn't go through every season, mostly the ones considered his best)

Again seems like a pretty small difference as if playoff RAPM really means much.

Two runs. 01 and 09.

The 08 run was very good but I can't forget his finals performance. Usually with disappearing acts after the 1st quarter or 1st half, blowing a big lead and really not playing well. The Celtics were a strong team but even taking that into consideration he didn't perform well.

Kobe 01/09 and Kawhi 19 is pretty much a toss-up. Having a really tough time ranking those 3. No issues with anyone ranking those in any order.

2008 is a notch below. His final 2 series just weren't good enough.

2009 Kobe vs. 2019 Kawhi:
I think this comes down to Kobe's ability to step up and be the primary ball-handler/creator vs. Kawhi's better shooting and size/strength advantage helping him on defense.

Kawhi averaged 30.5 PPG on .619 TS% (+5.9)
Kobe averaged 30.2 PPG on .564 TS% (+2.0)

So from a scoring-only perspective, it looks like Kawhi's efficiency edge is hard to get past. But Kobe was such a versatile perimeter offensive threat that he could be the sole perimeter playmaker as well as the go-to volume scorer. Take a look at the APG between the two teams during the playoffs.

2009 Lakers Playoffs
1. Kobe ------- 5.5 APG -- 2.6 TOV
2. Pau --------- 2.5 APG -- 1.9 TOV
3. Ariza ------- 2.3 APG -- 1.7 TOV
4. Fisher ------ 2.2 APG -- 1.1 TOV
5. Walton ----- 2.1 APG -- 1.0 TOV

2019 Raptors Playoffs
1. Lowry ------ 6.6 APG -- 2.2 TOV
2. Kawhi ------ 3.9 APG -- 3.1 TOV
3. Gasol ------- 3.0 APG -- 0.9 TOV
4. Siakam ----- 2.8 APG -- 1.4 TOV
5. VanVleet --- 2.6 APG -- 0.9 TOV

Whereas Kobe averaged more than twice as many assists as anyone else on his team and had the BEST AST/TOV ratio among the top 5 playmakers on his squad, Kawhi was a distant 2nd in APG on his team and had the WORST AST/TOV ratio among the top 5 playmakers on his squad.

I know the Lakers had a great frontcourt which the Triangle emphasized, but Kobe's diversity of skills is why they won 65 games and a Championship with a complete lack of playmaking from the perimeter. The next best creators on his team were Bigs in Pau and Odom.

Offensively, I think 2009 Kobe was a superior run to 2019 Kawhi because I value his playmaking enough to make up for Kawhi's scoring efficiency edge.

But Kawhi's performance as the primary defender on Giannis when the Raptors shut him down was something else. It wasn't like Kawhi did it by himself, the Wall formed by Gasol + Siakam and co. was a team effort, but he was one of the few people in the league strong/quick enough to give Giannis resistance on the initial move to the basket which is why the wall was so effective. Kawhi also led the Raptors in RPG (both DRB and ORB) while Kobe was 3rd on the Lakers in RPG (3rd in DRB and 5th in ORB).

Kobe was a good defender and tough dude, he was battling with Denver Bully-Ball Melo in the post which was no picnic. And I'm sure he could've grabbed more boards if the roster construction of the team was different. But as tough and fearless as Kobe was, he wasn't capable of guarding the freakshow that was MVP Giannis. He just wasn't strong enough.

It's just so hard. Kawhi as a pure scorer, Kobe as an overall offensive force, Kawhi for his two-way impact at his best. Ultimately I side with Kobe because although Kawhi had brilliant defensive moments, he also struggled at times and looked like the weakest defender on the floor for the Raptors during certain stretches (after all, it was an amazing defensive roster). It's really a tie but gun to my head, I'd go with Kobe due to his greater offensive responsibility.

2001 Kobe vs. 2019 Kawhi:
I think this thread created by s0ciety was really cool and gave even more perspective on how dominant the 2001 Lakers were during the playoffs. They had a ridicuclous 18.28 SRS which was #1 All-Time among playoff teams that made the Finals, compared to the 2019 Raptors' 9.83 SRS (32nd) or the 2009 Lakers' 11.06 SRS (21st).

https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1977066

I think the 2001 Lakers' run was a historic moment in the sport when for the first and only time in league history, one team had the Top 2 players during the playoffs. Kobe's performance in the Finals was a little weak but if you treat the 76ers as the 4th best team they faced in that playoffs (which they were by SRS) and treat the Spurs/Kings series as the two most dangerous series of that playoff run, you could argue that Kobe was the MVP of that playoff run. Even before weighting the Finals performance less, he was tied with Shaq in a lot of advanced metrics + led the league in Playoff RAPM. Against the very best team in the league besides themselves in the Spurs, Kobe was CLEARLY the MVP of that series and put on a historic performance.

'00-'02 Shaq is a player on the shortlist for most dominant peaks ever. '01 Playoff Shaq might've been the most overpowering offensive version ever, based on what he did vs. DPOY Mutombo in the Finals. So for '01 Kobe (22 years old at the time) to be arguably better than THAT version of Shaq during the playoffs is just insane.

I know '01 Shaq makes it tough to compare '01 Kobe to a lot of runs by clearcut #1s like 2019 Kawhi or even 2009 Kobe. But to me, this was a special performance by Kobe and the monster WCF run ending with the epic Spurs series was the greatest moment of his career. As much as I respect '19 Kawhi and '09 Kobe, I'd rank '01 Kobe as the best run of the 3 by a tiny margin.

2008 Kobe may have been the best version of Kobe all things considered. I think '08 Kobe would've been in the mix had they won the title that year, about on the same level as '19 Kawhi and '09 Kobe. But he just completely fell apart during those final 3 games in that series and because of that, I can't put that run above '19 Kawhi.

2010 Kobe had my favorite series of his career against the '10 Suns. And the series right before vs. the Jazz was incredible as well. Probably the 2nd best multi-series stretch of his career besides '01 vs. the Kings/Spurs. But the Thunder series wasn't too impressive and the Finals vs. the Celtics was once again an absolute grind. Great playoff run but I'd rank it 5th behind '01 Kobe, '09 Kobe, '19 Kawhi, and '08 Kobe in that order.

...

TLDR: 0/1/2, I think you could go with any of those as the right answer. I went with 2 but it was tough.

jamaalstar21 wrote:Maybe my Kobe memory is starting to fade, but I don't recall Kobe every doing anything as monstrously dominant as Kawhi's 2019 run. Even at his best, Kobe could be hot and cold in the playoffs. Kobe's playoff career is much more extensive than Kawhi's, and he had many more big moments and bad moments. But 2019 was a total domination of everyone in Kawhi's path. Yes he faded in the finals, playing injured as the Warriors fell to pieces, but the total body of work... I just don't remember Kobe every being that dominant in one single playoff run. Especially when you think about defense, Kobe's best defensive playoffs come super early in his career, his best offense comes around the end of his prime. Kawhi was having consistently big moments on both ends (even if 2019 is not Kawhi's best defensive year by any stretch) in his big boy championship run.

The bbref numbers say 0. (I'm not in love with these numbers, but I do use them for quick analysis because they are by far the easiest to look up for comparisons across in different years)
Kawhi's advanced stats in 2019 are all individually higher than anything Kobe ever hit across all his playoffs, in any single category.

Kobe's career highs mostly came in the 2009 playoffs.
Kobe PER of 26.8 in 2009 (< 2019 Kawhi at 27.9)
Kobe with 4.7 Win Shares in 2009 (< 2019 Kawhi at 4.9)
Kobe with a BPM of of 9.1 in 2009 (< 2019 Kawhi at 10.1)
Kobe with a VORP of 2.6 in 2009 (< 2019 Kawhi at 2.9)
Kobe with a TS% of .587 in 2006 (<2019 Kawhi at .619)

Some of the 2019 are career highs for Kawhi, but he had a higher BPM, TS% and PER in his 12 games 2017 run before Zaza-gate.

I quickly checked RAPM:
Kawhi's 2019 playoff RAPM: 2.87
Kobe's 2009 playoff RAPM: 2.76
Kobe's 2001 playoff RAPM: 2.34 (led the NBA)
most other Kobe seasons I looked up were negligible (I didn't go through every season, mostly the ones considered his best)

Isnt playoff rapm ridiculously unreliable considering it takes like 2-3 seasons for regular rapm to stabalize and even then individual results themselves can still be wonky

MyUniBroDavis wrote:

jamaalstar21 wrote:Maybe my Kobe memory is starting to fade, but I don't recall Kobe every doing anything as monstrously dominant as Kawhi's 2019 run. Even at his best, Kobe could be hot and cold in the playoffs. Kobe's playoff career is much more extensive than Kawhi's, and he had many more big moments and bad moments. But 2019 was a total domination of everyone in Kawhi's path. Yes he faded in the finals, playing injured as the Warriors fell to pieces, but the total body of work... I just don't remember Kobe every being that dominant in one single playoff run. Especially when you think about defense, Kobe's best defensive playoffs come super early in his career, his best offense comes around the end of his prime. Kawhi was having consistently big moments on both ends (even if 2019 is not Kawhi's best defensive year by any stretch) in his big boy championship run.

The bbref numbers say 0. (I'm not in love with these numbers, but I do use them for quick analysis because they are by far the easiest to look up for comparisons across in different years)
Kawhi's advanced stats in 2019 are all individually higher than anything Kobe ever hit across all his playoffs, in any single category.

Kobe's career highs mostly came in the 2009 playoffs.
Kobe PER of 26.8 in 2009 (< 2019 Kawhi at 27.9)
Kobe with 4.7 Win Shares in 2009 (< 2019 Kawhi at 4.9)
Kobe with a BPM of of 9.1 in 2009 (< 2019 Kawhi at 10.1)
Kobe with a VORP of 2.6 in 2009 (< 2019 Kawhi at 2.9)
Kobe with a TS% of .587 in 2006 (<2019 Kawhi at .619)

Some of the 2019 are career highs for Kawhi, but he had a higher BPM, TS% and PER in his 12 games 2017 run before Zaza-gate.

I quickly checked RAPM:
Kawhi's 2019 playoff RAPM: 2.87
Kobe's 2009 playoff RAPM: 2.76
Kobe's 2001 playoff RAPM: 2.34 (led the NBA)
most other Kobe seasons I looked up were negligible (I didn't go through every season, mostly the ones considered his best)

Isnt playoff rapm ridiculously unreliable considering it takes like 2-3 seasons for regular rapm to stabalize and even then individual results themselves can still be wonky

Ya, I'm not hugely swayed by numbers. But I know people on this site love RAPM. Even pretty basic playoff numbers can be wonky, because of the small sample size. From my quick non-thorough research though, every number I could find seemed to like Kawhi in 2019 (and 2017) better than pretty much any Kobe run.

I see the Lakers logo under your team, so I tread carefully...

jamaalstar21 wrote:

MyUniBroDavis wrote:

jamaalstar21 wrote:Maybe my Kobe memory is starting to fade, but I don't recall Kobe every doing anything as monstrously dominant as Kawhi's 2019 run. Even at his best, Kobe could be hot and cold in the playoffs. Kobe's playoff career is much more extensive than Kawhi's, and he had many more big moments and bad moments. But 2019 was a total domination of everyone in Kawhi's path. Yes he faded in the finals, playing injured as the Warriors fell to pieces, but the total body of work... I just don't remember Kobe every being that dominant in one single playoff run. Especially when you think about defense, Kobe's best defensive playoffs come super early in his career, his best offense comes around the end of his prime. Kawhi was having consistently big moments on both ends (even if 2019 is not Kawhi's best defensive year by any stretch) in his big boy championship run.

The bbref numbers say 0. (I'm not in love with these numbers, but I do use them for quick analysis because they are by far the easiest to look up for comparisons across in different years)
Kawhi's advanced stats in 2019 are all individually higher than anything Kobe ever hit across all his playoffs, in any single category.

Kobe's career highs mostly came in the 2009 playoffs.
Kobe PER of 26.8 in 2009 (< 2019 Kawhi at 27.9)
Kobe with 4.7 Win Shares in 2009 (< 2019 Kawhi at 4.9)
Kobe with a BPM of of 9.1 in 2009 (< 2019 Kawhi at 10.1)
Kobe with a VORP of 2.6 in 2009 (< 2019 Kawhi at 2.9)
Kobe with a TS% of .587 in 2006 (<2019 Kawhi at .619)

Some of the 2019 are career highs for Kawhi, but he had a higher BPM, TS% and PER in his 12 games 2017 run before Zaza-gate.

I quickly checked RAPM:
Kawhi's 2019 playoff RAPM: 2.87
Kobe's 2009 playoff RAPM: 2.76
Kobe's 2001 playoff RAPM: 2.34 (led the NBA)
most other Kobe seasons I looked up were negligible (I didn't go through every season, mostly the ones considered his best)

Isnt playoff rapm ridiculously unreliable considering it takes like 2-3 seasons for regular rapm to stabalize and even then individual results themselves can still be wonky

Ya, I'm not hugely swayed by numbers. But I know people on this site love RAPM. Even pretty basic playoff numbers can be wonky, because of the small sample size. From my quick non-thorough research though, every number I could find seemed to like Kawhi in 2019 (and 2017) better than pretty much any Kobe run.

I see the Lakers logo under your team, so I tread carefully...

Lol its opinion dw about that, but RAPM is way more noisy of a data set than other kinds of stats like points of box score derived stuff

I like rapm and am a numbers guy to an extent but i think there are alot of contextual differences between both the types of teams they played in era wise (id say iso stars thrive now more than before for various reasons) and to a greater extent how kobe functioned within his team vs how most stars did, which partially was due to him taking more shots than other stars anyway but also due to system stuff. Theres a tendancy to try to control for era by using relative TS% that i dont really agree with since it assumes role and workload are the same and i disgree with that. (Ex, early 90s superstar wings were significantly more effecient inside the arc than in 05 pre 06 changes, prolly cuz of illegal defense rules or something. As an example, there wasnt a single wing player who shot above 50% inside the arc and scored more than 20ppg in 05, whereas 6 did in 91 and 9 did in 92 (50% is arbritary but there def was a significant difference). Otoh whereas most players effeciency increased the following year in 06 due to certain rule changes allowing for either more penetration, or more effecient finishing, or both, kobe (who people did say was hacked constantly versus other stars at the time) didnt really follow that pattern and only became a higher volume more effecient scorer in 06 from his midrange game being more effecient, which one could argue meaning theres merit to the idea that he didnt benefit from the rule changes as much as some other stars did. not to mention today where offensive systems and modern spacing enhance iso bball more than ever before

Otoh the one time we did see kobe in a more modern-ish offensive system (and they were playing playground ball aft awhile, it was mostly just that kobe was using ball screens more and the spacing was better in terms of positioning) kobe, who had been declining pretty steadily by then, suddenly had his most effecient year inside the arc in his career, along with an offensive rapm good for third in the shotcharts database (which was far better than any of the three years prior)

Iirc someone made a stat called cpoe, and the concept for it is interesting in terms of defining effeciency in role, and they used it for kobe and got that hed be a top 10 effeciency player today based off of that, but they were comparing it to todays game instead of the game back then (since it basically gets your play types from synergy and calculated how much more points u produce than someone who would be league average at all your play types with a similar distribution). If you compare kobe to the 2016 data instead of 2019 (which would still underestimate how good he was relative to his peers) it becomes otherworldly good, not only that but it doesnt take into account shot quality and all of that.

Essentially i think that Kobes raw impact might notve been as high as some perrenial ATGs but his impact in his position considering various factors (even considering some of it was his own fault for ballhogging too much at times) was pretty high, and hed be incredibly effecient today. (I mean, if im being honest scoring wise i dont see anything leonard is better at than kobe outside of being stronger on the drive, although peak kobes signficiantly faster, and a better three ball. Maybe ball handling but im not too sure about that. The main difference in their effeciency imo comes from the quality of shot they take, but personally i think thats more of a product of system+era than skillset, and i really doubt kobes bar for quality shot would be as low if he played on a team more consistently able to give him quality looks or where he got to "go to work" more without worrying about help as much.)

I guess one example ill go into is postgame, which obviously kawhi is very known for. Kawhis points per possesion on post ups is near kobes (2020 0.99ppp, 2019 0.96). Kobes for reference, other than 06 when it was 0.91ppp, generally was at 1.00 or above throughout his prime (2010 kobe was at 0.98, 07-09 kobe was around was between 1.00-1.03) However, avg ppp for post ups in 2020 was 0.92, and 0.93 in 2019. There isnt data for mid 2000s available for free, but we know in 2016 (which definately was more spaced out than 2008) was 0.84. If we use that as an average (which is conservative btw, as we know at the very least, from 2004-2020 duncan was sixth in CPOE in post ups overall (it rewards frequency + how much better than aberage you are) and kobe kind of smokes duncan in effeciency in post ups (kobe from 2006-2010 beats duncan and garnett in terms off effeciency in 3/5 of those years, and in terms of average)

So essentially, in terms of just in the post, kobe effeciency relative to his peers is a great deal more impressive than kawhi's (kawhis is elite while kobes is historic) and this kind if applies for a whole bunch of their play types

Ill prolly make a post about it one of these days but essentially once u take that into account its hard to say kobe wouldnt be absurdly succesful today, esp when u consider that theres alot CPOE tells you about how kobe was misutilized throughout his career, to an extent