Julius Erving/Kareem Abdul-Jabbar or Kobe Bryant/Hakeem Olajuwon

Moderators: Doctor MJ, penbeast0, PaulieWal, Quotatious, Clyde Frazier, trex_8063

New Team?

Dr.J/Kareem
17
53%
Kobe/Hakeem
15
47%
 
Total votes: 32

Matt15
Analyst
Posts: 3,456
And1: 124
Joined: Aug 27, 2008

Julius Erving/Kareem Abdul-Jabbar or Kobe Bryant/Hakeem Olajuwon 

Post#1 » by Matt15 » Fri Jul 31, 2020 2:00 am

Which duo would you rather build around?
JordansBulls
RealGM
Posts: 58,548
And1: 4,239
Joined: Jul 12, 2006
Location: HCA (Homecourt Advantage)

Re: Julius Erving/Kareem Abdul-Jabbar or Kobe Bryant/Hakeem Olajuwon 

Post#2 » by JordansBulls » Fri Jul 31, 2020 4:10 am

Kobe and Hakeem
Image
"Talent wins games, but teamwork and intelligence wins championships."
- Michael Jordan
tihsad
Junior
Posts: 299
And1: 105
Joined: Dec 23, 2007
     

Re: Julius Erving/Kareem Abdul-Jabbar or Kobe Bryant/Hakeem Olajuwon 

Post#3 » by tihsad » Fri Jul 31, 2020 5:07 am

KAJ is the best overall player imo, but mostly based on incredible longevity. Peak for peak I'm not sure I see Cap having an edge over Dream. KAJ was fluid and had a borderline unstoppable shot, but Dream moved in a manner I'm not sure I've ever seen a big man play. I ultimately have to give it to early/mid 70s Kareem on O, but it isn't a wipe out. On D, peak Kareem could be very impressive, but not like Hakeem, who I have second only behind BR regarding total defense. Peak for peak I'm leaning towards Hakeem, but can easily call it a draw, so it comes down to the wings.

Doc was one one of the most impressive open court players I've ever seen, and not a slouch in the half court. He was strong, and again had that almost magic fluidity about his movement. His ball movement was perhaps above average, handles solid, and his shooting nothing to write home about. His defense could be good in spots, but tended towards slightly above average. Kobe, while good in the open court, wasn't Doc, but his half court game, ball movement, handles, maybe D, and certainly shooting was superior. I'll take peak Kobe over peak Doc.

Nice comparison. I'll go with KB/HO, but in a very, very close game.
The Rodzilla wrote:He has all the ingredients of a superstar, he banged the Madonna, he is in the movies, he is in the hall of fame, he grabs all the rebounds etc
70sFan
RealGM
Posts: 12,654
And1: 8,652
Joined: Aug 11, 2015
 

Re: Julius Erving/Kareem Abdul-Jabbar or Kobe Bryant/Hakeem Olajuwon 

Post#4 » by 70sFan » Fri Jul 31, 2020 5:49 am

Erving and Kareem gives you better peak, longer prime and better longevity. Bryant and Hakeem are likely a bit better on-court fit, but I'd go with 1970s duo.
xinxin
Sophomore
Posts: 125
And1: 97
Joined: Jul 01, 2018

Re: Julius Erving/Kareem Abdul-Jabbar or Kobe Bryant/Hakeem Olajuwon 

Post#5 » by xinxin » Fri Jul 31, 2020 6:02 am

Kobe & Hakeem


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
User avatar
rrravenred
Retired Mod
Retired Mod
Posts: 5,991
And1: 486
Joined: Feb 24, 2006
Location: Pulling at the loose threads of arguments since 2006

Re: Julius Erving/Kareem Abdul-Jabbar or Kobe Bryant/Hakeem Olajuwon 

Post#6 » by rrravenred » Fri Jul 31, 2020 6:17 am

Defensively both combos are outstanding, but I think Erving's help D shades the *cough* economy with which Kobe approached D post-Shaq. You definitely hand it to Hakeem as the stronger, more mobile defender, but Kareem's length and fluidity certainly prevent it from being a wipe out.

On O, J is perhaps the only "stoppable" player in the half court, but his amazing transition game and athleticism absolutely maker up for threat overall. Think Kareem is also the better post passer, and also has a range advantage on Hakeem, opposing up more offensive space for cutters and shooters. Kobe's own range, post game and technical passing ability also outshine Erving, although his tendency to believe he is always on, even when he's not, can be disruptive, especially for a player so able to work the post like Hakeem.

Think K&H have the highest game-to-game ceiling, but think I slightly prefer the more modular excellence of K&J



Sent from my SM-A305YN using Tapatalk
ElGee wrote:You, my friend, have shoved those words into my mouth, which is OK because I'm hungry.


Got fallacy?
User avatar
henshao
Senior
Posts: 546
And1: 195
Joined: Jul 29, 2018

Re: Julius Erving/Kareem Abdul-Jabbar or Kobe Bryant/Hakeem Olajuwon 

Post#7 » by henshao » Fri Jul 31, 2020 6:49 am

Hard to say how Kobe and Dream would get along, particularly the younger versions. Don't think Doc and Kareem would have any ego issues?
Odinn21
Sixth Man
Posts: 1,666
And1: 1,237
Joined: May 19, 2019
   

Re: Julius Erving/Kareem Abdul-Jabbar or Kobe Bryant/Hakeem Olajuwon 

Post#8 » by Odinn21 » Fri Jul 31, 2020 7:10 am

70sFan wrote:Erving and Kareem gives you better peak, longer prime and better longevity. Bryant and Hakeem are likely a bit better duo, but I'd go with 1970s duo.

I very much doubt it. Kareem is the only leader without bad behaviour or drama among the 4 and it's way more likely to Kareem/Erving duo would reach their potential because their personality fit is better.
70sFan
RealGM
Posts: 12,654
And1: 8,652
Joined: Aug 11, 2015
 

Re: Julius Erving/Kareem Abdul-Jabbar or Kobe Bryant/Hakeem Olajuwon 

Post#9 » by 70sFan » Fri Jul 31, 2020 8:18 am

Odinn21 wrote:
70sFan wrote:Erving and Kareem gives you better peak, longer prime and better longevity. Bryant and Hakeem are likely a bit better duo, but I'd go with 1970s duo.

I very much doubt it. Kareem is the only leader without bad behaviour or drama among the 4 and it's way more likely to Kareem/Erving duo would reach their potential because their personality fit is better.

My bad, that is not what I wanted to write. I meant that Kobe and Hakeem are probably a bit better fit on the court, but you are right that their off-court fit is much worse.

I have Kareem as the best player here and I don't think Julius was worse than Kobe.
70sFan
RealGM
Posts: 12,654
And1: 8,652
Joined: Aug 11, 2015
 

Re: Julius Erving/Kareem Abdul-Jabbar or Kobe Bryant/Hakeem Olajuwon 

Post#10 » by 70sFan » Fri Jul 31, 2020 8:20 am

Also, the only thing that could stop Julius in halfcourt is himself. When he was locked in, there was nothing you could do against him. He was elite isolation scorer and he moved without the ball very well.
Jiminy Glick
Assistant Coach
Posts: 3,760
And1: 668
Joined: Jun 28, 2016

Re: Julius Erving/Kareem Abdul-Jabbar or Kobe Bryant/Hakeem Olajuwon 

Post#11 » by Jiminy Glick » Fri Jul 31, 2020 9:16 am

70sFan wrote:
Odinn21 wrote:
70sFan wrote:Erving and Kareem gives you better peak, longer prime and better longevity. Bryant and Hakeem are likely a bit better duo, but I'd go with 1970s duo.

I very much doubt it. Kareem is the only leader without bad behaviour or drama among the 4 and it's way more likely to Kareem/Erving duo would reach their potential because their personality fit is better.

My bad, that is not what I wanted to write. I meant that Kobe and Hakeem are probably a bit better fit on the court, but you are right that their off-court fit is much worse.

I have Kareem as the best player here and I don't think Julius was worse than Kobe.


I agree and I think Erving was better than Kobe. if we had more film of prime Erving and also he played his whole career in the NBA I think a lot more people would as well.
Jiminy Glick
Assistant Coach
Posts: 3,760
And1: 668
Joined: Jun 28, 2016

Re: Julius Erving/Kareem Abdul-Jabbar or Kobe Bryant/Hakeem Olajuwon 

Post#12 » by Jiminy Glick » Fri Jul 31, 2020 9:18 am

Erving and Kareem

Erving > Kobe
Kareem > Hakeem

In basketball often less is more and so I have Erving as the better team player than Kobe and thus the better player.
xinxin
Sophomore
Posts: 125
And1: 97
Joined: Jul 01, 2018

Re: Julius Erving/Kareem Abdul-Jabbar or Kobe Bryant/Hakeem Olajuwon 

Post#13 » by xinxin » Fri Jul 31, 2020 11:57 am

Jiminy Glick wrote:Erving and Kareem

Erving > Kobe
Kareem > Hakeem

In basketball often less is more and so I have Erving as the better team player than Kobe and thus the better player.

Dr J, despite being the great innovator that he was, didn’t have a jump shot.. he had that awkward FT too. He was horrific at the 3pt line. 19% in the playoffs.. yikes.

Kobe was much better offensively, better scorer, better free throw shooter, better in assists. Scoring champ 2X.

They were pretty even in steals.

Dr. j was a better rebounder & shot blocker. But Dr J never made the all defense team (once in the ABA); which Kobe was part of 12 times.

Kobe had the much longer career. & even without Shaq, Kobe had more bling late in his career.

Dr. J’s only ring came when Malone joined an already loaded Sixers team.

Not sure how you can say that Kobe wasn’t a good team player, when he won back to back in 09-10 with less talent that any of Dr J’s teams.

Kobe only played with one HOF in those years. Unlike Dr J, who played with 3, in Bobby Jones, Maurice Cheeks & Moses, not to mention the sharp shooter Andrew Toney whose career was unfortunately cut short by injury.

Yeah, we get it Kobe was a d*ck. But it shouldn’t be used to detract from his greatness on the court.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
70sFan
RealGM
Posts: 12,654
And1: 8,652
Joined: Aug 11, 2015
 

Re: Julius Erving/Kareem Abdul-Jabbar or Kobe Bryant/Hakeem Olajuwon 

Post#14 » by 70sFan » Fri Jul 31, 2020 12:28 pm

xinxin wrote:Dr J, despite being the great innovator that he was, didn’t have a jump shot..

Julius wasn't great shooter, but he certainly used his jumpshot fairly often. His midrange game was quite decent, sayign that he didn't have a jumpshot is a huge overstatement.

he had that awkward FT too.

Yet he was 78% career FT shooter, which is above average.

He was horrific at the 3pt line. 19% in the playoffs.. yikes.

Do you even look at volume? Julius didn't attempt threes at all. In two ABA seasons when he shot over 1 three per game he averaged 33% from the three point line. Not nearly as bad.
Comparing three point stats of 1970s player and 2000s player is silly.

Kobe was much better offensively,

How much? I don't see huge difference.

better scorer,

Let's look at scoring stats:

Prime Julius (1973-82):
RS: 25.8 ppg, 31.4 per100 (without 1973) on 56.2% TS.
PS: 25.8 ppg, 30.8 per100 (without 1974) on 56.5% TS.

Prime Kobe (2001-10):
RS: 28.5 ppg, 37.5 per100 on 55.9% TS.
PS: 28.8 ppg, 35.8 per100 on 54.8% TS.

Kobe has slight volume edge, but he's slightly less efficient in more efficient era. I can give Kobe small edge here, but the difference is far from big.

better free throw shooter,

84% vs 78% is not a huge difference.

better in assists.

What does it mean? Better passer? Playmaker?
Scoring champ 2X.

I don't think it's that important in evalauation of who was better.

They were pretty even in steals.

This is not true, as Julius has clearly better steal stats than Kobe.

Dr. j was a better rebounder & shot blocker. But Dr J never made the all defense team (once in the ABA); which Kobe was part of 12 times.

It's all true, that we all know that Kobe got most of his defensive accolades due to reputation and not actual on court results. Kobe wasn't good defender in 2006 and 2007.
I view them as comparable defenders - Kobe was better shutdown defender while Julius was more intimidating help defender.

Kobe had the much longer career.

Kobe played 103 more RS games, but given how his first or last two seasons looked I wouldn't give him much credit for that. Their longevity is comparable, they had long primes and good post-prime careers. 1972-85 Julius vs 2000-13 Kobe is a good debate.

Dr. J’s only ring came when Malone joined an already loaded Sixers team.

You shouldn't exclude his two ABA rings. Anyway, Julius played in three finals before Moses came to Philadelphia and he was always Sixers best player in these series. His 1977 finals performance was better than anything Kobe ever did in the finals for example.

Not sure how you can say that Kobe wasn’t a good team player, when he won back to back in 09-10 with less talent that any of Dr J’s teams.

Nets had far less talent than Gasol and Odom alone.

Yeah, we get it Kobe was a d*ck. But it shouldn’t be used to detract from his greatness on the court.

Taking another all-time great over Kobe isn't an attack on his greatness. I mean, Julius is a lock top 20 player ever. Not all people who prefer Julius over Kobe hates Bryant.
90sAllDecade
Starter
Posts: 2,030
And1: 553
Joined: Jul 09, 2012
Location: Clutch City, Texas
   

Re: Julius Erving/Kareem Abdul-Jabbar or Kobe Bryant/Hakeem Olajuwon 

Post#15 » by 90sAllDecade » Fri Jul 31, 2020 6:09 pm

If we're talking peak performance and playoffs I would take Kobe and Hakeem. I have Hakeem slightly better than Kareem in combined two way impact in peak and playoffs, but I am open to the Kobe vs Dr. J debate.

If they are comparable defensively, and perhaps athletically, Kobe has a greater skillset from what I've seen but again I'm open for cases.

Kobe & Hakeem
NBA TV Clutch City Documentary Trailer:
https://vimeo.com/134215151
HeartBreakKid
RealGM
Posts: 16,555
And1: 11,988
Joined: Mar 08, 2012
     

Re: Julius Erving/Kareem Abdul-Jabbar or Kobe Bryant/Hakeem Olajuwon 

Post#16 » by HeartBreakKid » Sun Aug 2, 2020 5:14 am

Gotta love how people think Erving did not have a career before he went to the NBA. Yes, if we ignore like 5 of Dr.J's best seasons he's probably not that great. :roll:
VDT
Sixth Man
Posts: 1,574
And1: 919
Joined: Oct 13, 2018

Re: Julius Erving/Kareem Abdul-Jabbar or Kobe Bryant/Hakeem Olajuwon 

Post#17 » by VDT » Sun Aug 2, 2020 1:33 pm

Kobe's playmaking and ability to be the main ball handler is the deciding factor here.
Jack Dempsey
Junior
Posts: 413
And1: 199
Joined: Sep 17, 2015

Re: Julius Erving/Kareem Abdul-Jabbar or Kobe Bryant/Hakeem Olajuwon 

Post#18 » by Jack Dempsey » Sun Aug 2, 2020 2:12 pm

xinxin wrote:Dr. j was a better rebounder & shot blocker. But Dr J never made the all defense team (once in the ABA); which Kobe was part of 12 times.

I have Kobe above Dr.J on my all time list but this is just a bad argument imo.

Yes, he made 12 All-Defense selections and he in fact was a positive defender for the majority of his career but he made those 12 All-Defense teams above guys like Artest, Kidd, Allen, Bell, etc just to name a few. He shouldn't have any All-Defense selections at all. While he was a good defender, there were always a couple of superior defenders at his position.

As for the OP... IIRC Dr.J almost teamed up with Kareem in Milwaukee. They drafted him like 8th overall in the '70 (?) draft but he decided to join the ABA.
It's tough to say which duo I'd rather build around. Hakeem was special, he is one of just a few players that managed to block Kareem's skyhook (with Wilt and according to some older fans Nate Thurmond, although I've never seen that) and it was almost impossible to match his footwork. But then again, Kareem was one of the greatest ever too.
Kobe vs Erving is a tough question as well. The fact that they've played in different eras, with different rules doesn't make comparison easier. They would have developed differently in an alternative universe. But with the knowledge we have, I'd give Kobe the edge mostly because of his shooting.
Still not sure which duo I'd build around. You can't go wrong with either.
User avatar
Laimbeer
RealGM
Posts: 32,986
And1: 9,665
Joined: Aug 12, 2009
Location: Cabin Creek

Re: Julius Erving/Kareem Abdul-Jabbar or Kobe Bryant/Hakeem Olajuwon 

Post#19 » by Laimbeer » Sun Aug 2, 2020 5:32 pm

The only way I'd strongly consider Kobe/Hakeem is if "in today's game" were a stipulation.
G35
RealGM
Posts: 19,887
And1: 5,470
Joined: Dec 10, 2005
     

Re: Julius Erving/Kareem Abdul-Jabbar or Kobe Bryant/Hakeem Olajuwon 

Post#20 » by G35 » Sun Aug 2, 2020 5:49 pm

xinxin wrote:
Jiminy Glick wrote:Erving and Kareem

Erving > Kobe
Kareem > Hakeem

In basketball often less is more and so I have Erving as the better team player than Kobe and thus the better player.

Dr J, despite being the great innovator that he was, didn’t have a jump shot.. he had that awkward FT too. He was horrific at the 3pt line. 19% in the playoffs.. yikes.

Kobe was much better offensively, better scorer, better free throw shooter, better in assists. Scoring champ 2X.

They were pretty even in steals.

Dr. j was a better rebounder & shot blocker. But Dr J never made the all defense team (once in the ABA); which Kobe was part of 12 times.

Kobe had the much longer career. & even without Shaq, Kobe had more bling late in his career.

Dr. J’s only ring came when Malone joined an already loaded Sixers team.

Not sure how you can say that Kobe wasn’t a good team player, when he won back to back in 09-10 with less talent that any of Dr J’s teams.

Kobe only played with one HOF in those years. Unlike Dr J, who played with 3, in Bobby Jones, Maurice Cheeks & Moses, not to mention the sharp shooter Andrew Toney whose career was unfortunately cut short by injury.

Yeah, we get it Kobe was a d*ck. But it shouldn’t be used to detract from his greatness on the court.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Strength of competition matters.

Back then the East was the stronger conference. Erving led the Sixers to three NBA finals before Moses came along. They had to go through teams like Bird and the Celtics, Moncrief and Marques Johnson of the Milwaukee Bucks. Then if you survived that gauntlet you got to play Kareem, Magic and the Lakers.

The Sixers were a stacked team except for at center where they had Dawkins and Caldwell Jones and it just was a mismatch when you are going up against Kareem and Parish. You see once Moses joined the Sixers they had an ATG season and one of the greatest playoff runs ever...and this is with Doc on the backside of his career.

Give Erving, Moses to start his NBA career and he would be clearly a top 10 player all time and knocking on the door of top five.....
I'm so tired of the typical......

Return to Player Comparisons