‘11 Dwight Howard or ‘15 James Harden

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Better player?

‘11 Dwight Howard
13
52%
‘15 James Harden
12
48%
 
Total votes: 25

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‘11 Dwight Howard or ‘15 James Harden 

Post#1 » by Matt15 » Sun Aug 2, 2020 6:05 am

Who was the better player?
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Re: ‘11 Dwight Howard or ‘15 James Harden 

Post#2 » by No-more-rings » Sun Aug 2, 2020 1:58 pm

I’m not real confident in my answer but i’ll say Harden, his 2015 season gets underrated for some reason. It was easily better than his 16’ season, and I’d probably take it over 2017 as well. It was one of his best years by RAPM and remains as his 2nd best playoff run behind 2019.
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Re: ‘11 Dwight Howard or ‘15 James Harden 

Post#3 » by Jiminy Glick » Sun Aug 2, 2020 5:00 pm

Dwight but the team would need a dominant scorer.
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Re: ‘11 Dwight Howard or ‘15 James Harden 

Post#4 » by GeorgeMarcus » Sun Aug 2, 2020 10:52 pm

I've come to develop the opinion that Dwight was given too much credit for the Magic's success at the expense of his talented/tailor made supporting cast. Jameer Nelson and Rashard Lewis in particular.

As such I'll take '15 Harden without thinking twice about it.
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Re: ‘11 Dwight Howard or ‘15 James Harden 

Post#5 » by No-more-rings » Sun Aug 2, 2020 10:56 pm

GeorgeMarcus wrote:I've come to develop the opinion that Dwight was given too much credit for the Magic's success at the expense of his talented/tailor made supporting cast. Jameer Nelson and Rashard Lewis in particular.

As such I'll take '15 Harden without thinking twice about it.

You say that like Nelson and Lewis were some mega stars or something.
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Re: ‘11 Dwight Howard or ‘15 James Harden 

Post#6 » by OdomFan » Sun Aug 2, 2020 11:08 pm

Dwight. I'd say he'd be a better fit with any team Hardens ever played on. If you give those OKC teams 2011 Dwight Howard, they'd defintely be in better position to win a championship.

If you give CP3 Dwight over Harden, those two would have had a shot at winning championship in Houston.

I don't see Harden taking the Magic to a single NBA Finals in place of Howard. They didn't work well together either during their time together because of the way Harden does things.
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Re: ‘11 Dwight Howard or ‘15 James Harden 

Post#7 » by Eddy_JukeZ » Sun Aug 2, 2020 11:44 pm

I'm not high on Dwight at all.

I think Harden was clearly the better player in this comparison.
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Re: ‘11 Dwight Howard or ‘15 James Harden 

Post#8 » by GeorgeMarcus » Mon Aug 3, 2020 12:02 am

No-more-rings wrote:
GeorgeMarcus wrote:I've come to develop the opinion that Dwight was given too much credit for the Magic's success at the expense of his talented/tailor made supporting cast. Jameer Nelson and Rashard Lewis in particular.

As such I'll take '15 Harden without thinking twice about it.

You say that like Nelson and Lewis were some mega stars or something.


They don't have to be megastars to justify my claim. A collection of high-end/well-fitting players does the trick just fine (see current Raptors, '15 Hawks, etc.) In the the case of Nelson/Lewis, they were both All-Star talents in their prime.

Most teams would need to sacrifice talent to surround Dwight with the kind of spacing he had in Orlando. They catered the roster to his abilities (as they should) but even still there isn't much evidence to suggest his impact was more pronounced than the guys I mentioned.
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Re: ‘11 Dwight Howard or ‘15 James Harden 

Post#9 » by No-more-rings » Mon Aug 3, 2020 12:30 pm

GeorgeMarcus wrote:
No-more-rings wrote:
GeorgeMarcus wrote:I've come to develop the opinion that Dwight was given too much credit for the Magic's success at the expense of his talented/tailor made supporting cast. Jameer Nelson and Rashard Lewis in particular.

As such I'll take '15 Harden without thinking twice about it.

You say that like Nelson and Lewis were some mega stars or something.


They don't have to be megastars to justify my claim. A collection of high-end/well-fitting players does the trick just fine (see current Raptors, '15 Hawks, etc.) In the the case of Nelson/Lewis, they were both All-Star talents in their prime.

Most teams would need to sacrifice talent to surround Dwight with the kind of spacing he had in Orlando. They catered the roster to his abilities (as they should) but even still there isn't much evidence to suggest his impact was more pronounced than the guys I mentioned.

Lewis only played 25 games in 2011 and Jameer was nothing like an all star that year, 13ppg/6apg 15.4 PER, 1.1 BPM. Dwight still took them to 52 wins, 3rd ranked drtg and a still ok-ish offense. And Dwight's impact was so low that the Magic were arguably the worst team in the league their first year without him, 20 wins, 25th drtg, 27th ortg.

It sounds like you are going off of narratives, and not acknowledging how good Dwight really was.

Like Dwight didn't have more impact than Nelson and Lewis, seriously? You're too good of a poster to make such a ridiculous claim.
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Re: ‘11 Dwight Howard or ‘15 James Harden 

Post#10 » by Bergmaniac » Mon Aug 3, 2020 1:28 pm

We got to the Finals in 2009 without Jameer, he missed all of the Eastern Conference playoffs that season.

The 2011 team was basically Dwight and a bunch of role players most of whom were subpar defenders. J-Rich at this point of his career was a turnstyle on D and not that good on offence either without Nash feeding him the ball, Hedo was past it, Jameer shot well in the regular season, but he was never much of a playmaker and never a good defender, we didn't even have an actual backup centre and played Bass there. To this day I am just amazed we ended up with the 3rd best defense in the league given that Dwight and Quentyn Richardson were the only plus defenders in the rotation after the early season trades.
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Re: ‘11 Dwight Howard or ‘15 James Harden 

Post#11 » by GeorgeMarcus » Mon Aug 3, 2020 7:13 pm

No-more-rings wrote:
GeorgeMarcus wrote:
No-more-rings wrote:You say that like Nelson and Lewis were some mega stars or something.


They don't have to be megastars to justify my claim. A collection of high-end/well-fitting players does the trick just fine (see current Raptors, '15 Hawks, etc.) In the the case of Nelson/Lewis, they were both All-Star talents in their prime.

Most teams would need to sacrifice talent to surround Dwight with the kind of spacing he had in Orlando. They catered the roster to his abilities (as they should) but even still there isn't much evidence to suggest his impact was more pronounced than the guys I mentioned.

Lewis only played 25 games in 2011 and Jameer was nothing like an all star that year, 13ppg/6apg 15.4 PER, 1.1 BPM. Dwight still took them to 52 wins, 3rd ranked drtg and a still ok-ish offense. And Dwight's impact was so low that the Magic were arguably the worst team in the league their first year without him, 20 wins, 25th drtg, 27th ortg.

It sounds like you are going off of narratives, and not acknowledging how good Dwight really was.

Like Dwight didn't have more impact than Nelson and Lewis, seriously? You're too good of a poster to make such a ridiculous claim.


That sort of demonstrates my point though, or at least provides further evidence. They were off to a hot start with Lewis in '11 (comparable to the 59-win seasons leading up to it) and then regressed notably when he departed. Not only in the RS but also in the playoffs, where they lost in the first round after making the Finals/Conference Finals respectively.

I honestly feel like my argument is opposite to the narrative as far as Dwight is concerned. For a long time I bought into the idea that he was the juggernaut at the foundation of their success, until more and more evidence led me to believe that he was a good player among other good players. I'm not saying he wasn't the best on the team, but the gap isn't what people believe it to be.
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Re: ‘11 Dwight Howard or ‘15 James Harden 

Post#12 » by No-more-rings » Mon Aug 3, 2020 8:00 pm

GeorgeMarcus wrote:
That sort of demonstrates my point though, or at least provides further evidence.


No it doesn't, not really. It doesn't disprove that Dwight was still the driving force behind that elite defense. Are you implying that Lewis was their defensive anchor?

GeorgeMarcus wrote:They were off to a hot start with Lewis in '11 (comparable to the 59-win seasons leading up to it) and then regressed notably when he departed. Not only in the RS but also in the playoffs, where they lost in the first round after making the Finals/Conference Finals respectively.


Would Lewis have changed the fact that mostly of their starters aside from Dwight shot putridly from the floor? Nelson, 37.8% from the floor, Turkoglu 29.4%, Jason Richardson 33.3%..JJ Reddick shot 1/15 from 3. Unless you think Rashard would've created massively better shots for these guys, your argument doesn't hold water.

GeorgeMarcus wrote:I honestly feel like my argument is opposite to the narrative as far as Dwight is concerned. For a long time I bought into the idea that he was the juggernaut at the foundation of their success, until more and more evidence led me to believe that he was a good player among other good players. I'm not saying he wasn't the best on the team, but the gap isn't what people believe it to be.

The evidence is there, you are either ignoring it or not looking hard enough.
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Re: ‘11 Dwight Howard or ‘15 James Harden 

Post#13 » by GeorgeMarcus » Mon Aug 3, 2020 8:48 pm

No-more-rings wrote:
GeorgeMarcus wrote:
That sort of demonstrates my point though, or at least provides further evidence.


No it doesn't, not really. It doesn't disprove that Dwight was still the driving force behind that elite defense. Are you implying that Lewis was their defensive anchor?

GeorgeMarcus wrote:They were off to a hot start with Lewis in '11 (comparable to the 59-win seasons leading up to it) and then regressed notably when he departed. Not only in the RS but also in the playoffs, where they lost in the first round after making the Finals/Conference Finals respectively.


Would Lewis have changed the fact that mostly of their starters aside from Dwight shot putridly from the floor? Nelson, 37.8% from the floor, Turkoglu 29.4%, Jason Richardson 33.3%..JJ Reddick shot 1/15 from 3. Unless you think Rashard would've created massively better shots for these guys, your argument doesn't hold water.

GeorgeMarcus wrote:I honestly feel like my argument is opposite to the narrative as far as Dwight is concerned. For a long time I bought into the idea that he was the juggernaut at the foundation of their success, until more and more evidence led me to believe that he was a good player among other good players. I'm not saying he wasn't the best on the team, but the gap isn't what people believe it to be.

The evidence is there, you are either ignoring it or not looking hard enough.


Regarding your 1st quote: I'm not specifying offense or defense, I'm talking about cumulative impact.

During their Finals run in '09, Howard was dead last on the team in playoff RAPM (#154 overall). Lewis was best on the team and #16 overall. During the ECF run in '10, Howard was 2nd last on the team in playoff RAPM and #85 overall. Lewis was best on the team yet again and #1 overall. Dwight put up negative on/offs in 8/10 playoff runs including 4/5 in Orlando. Those numbers simply aren't compatible with his reputation, and it's not like his RS RAPMs are that impressive either.

What evidence are you referring to exactly? You know I won't be swayed by box stats or accolades :)
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Re: ‘11 Dwight Howard or ‘15 James Harden 

Post#14 » by Statlanta » Mon Aug 3, 2020 11:43 pm

Bergmaniac wrote:We got to the Finals in 2009 without Jameer, he missed all of the Eastern Conference playoffs that season.

The 2011 team was basically Dwight and a bunch of role players most of whom were subpar defenders. J-Rich at this point of his career was a turnstyle on D and not that good on offence either without Nash feeding him the ball, Hedo was past it, Jameer shot well in the regular season, but he was never much of a playmaker and never a good defender, we didn't even have an actual backup centre and played Bass there. To this day I am just amazed we ended up with the 3rd best defense in the league given that Dwight and Quentyn Richardson were the only plus defenders in the rotation after the early season trades.

The fact that the team regressed while our "best player" got better kinda tells you something. The team was powered by the peaks of Turkoglu and Lewis. There were so many stats during that era where the Magic won games when the 3pt barrage was ongoing but were a average team when Dwight scored 30+.

As for this poll it's easily Harden. He proved to be the player Kevin Martin wasn't and actually did something for his team by winning a round.
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Re: ‘11 Dwight Howard or ‘15 James Harden 

Post#15 » by Joao Saraiva » Tue Aug 4, 2020 1:26 am

As long as my team can rotate decently on defense, Dwight will make sure my team is among the best in the league in that regard.

As long as he accepts a role as more of a PnR guy (roll obviously) on offense, he'll help a lot.

Give me some decent spacing, playmaking and scoring and he makes the team very very dangerous.

Put that Dwight on Portland this year and they might go all the way.

I'm high on Dwight, higher than most here. I really believe his defense was special before injuries.
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Re: ‘11 Dwight Howard or ‘15 James Harden 

Post#16 » by Joao Saraiva » Tue Aug 4, 2020 1:33 am

Statlanta wrote:
Bergmaniac wrote:We got to the Finals in 2009 without Jameer, he missed all of the Eastern Conference playoffs that season.

The 2011 team was basically Dwight and a bunch of role players most of whom were subpar defenders. J-Rich at this point of his career was a turnstyle on D and not that good on offence either without Nash feeding him the ball, Hedo was past it, Jameer shot well in the regular season, but he was never much of a playmaker and never a good defender, we didn't even have an actual backup centre and played Bass there. To this day I am just amazed we ended up with the 3rd best defense in the league given that Dwight and Quentyn Richardson were the only plus defenders in the rotation after the early season trades.

The fact that the team regressed while our "best player" got better kinda tells you something. The team was powered by the peaks of Turkoglu and Lewis. There were so many stats during that era where the Magic won games when the 3pt barrage was ongoing but were a average team when Dwight scored 30+.

As for this poll it's easily Harden. He proved to be the player Kevin Martin wasn't and actually did something for his team by winning a round.


Not that surprising at all. 3 points get you wins. When the shooters were on fire, it worked fine. Dwight scoring more might be the Magic forcing the issue cause nothing else was working from outside.

Still he could score and was useful on offense. However, it's on defense that you should really look to his impact.
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Re: ‘11 Dwight Howard or ‘15 James Harden 

Post#17 » by Bergmaniac » Tue Aug 4, 2020 2:25 pm

Statlanta wrote:
Bergmaniac wrote:We got to the Finals in 2009 without Jameer, he missed all of the Eastern Conference playoffs that season.

The 2011 team was basically Dwight and a bunch of role players most of whom were subpar defenders. J-Rich at this point of his career was a turnstyle on D and not that good on offence either without Nash feeding him the ball, Hedo was past it, Jameer shot well in the regular season, but he was never much of a playmaker and never a good defender, we didn't even have an actual backup centre and played Bass there. To this day I am just amazed we ended up with the 3rd best defense in the league given that Dwight and Quentyn Richardson were the only plus defenders in the rotation after the early season trades.

The fact that the team regressed while our "best player" got better kinda tells you something. The team was powered by the peaks of Turkoglu and Lewis. There were so many stats during that era where the Magic won games when the 3pt barrage was ongoing but were a average team when Dwight scored 30+.

Not much besides Otis Smith being a horrible GM. His trades in the 2010/11 season were absolutely awful, and his absurd overpay for Rashard few years earlier meant that when he declined physically we could only trade him for the post-injury Arenas who was one of the worst players in the league.

Our best team in that era was in 2010, when Turkoglu wasn't even in the roster.
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Re: ‘11 Dwight Howard or ‘15 James Harden 

Post#18 » by Clyde Frazier » Tue Aug 4, 2020 10:56 pm

I'm much higher on '11 dwight than I am on prime dwight, similar to '03 mcgrady. He was flat out special that year defensively. It's close but i ultimately went with dwight.
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Re: ‘11 Dwight Howard or ‘15 James Harden 

Post#19 » by slimreaper2021 » Sun Aug 9, 2020 4:21 pm

2011 Dwight, His defensive impact was imsane

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