Has Kemba proven he's better than Kyrie yet?

[freethedevil]

Kyrie's first and only playoffs without lebron ended up with him playing second fiddle to al hoford.

Has kemba done enough these playoffs to show he's better? If not, what else does he have to do?

[mademan]

Didnt Boston sweep the 1st round last year and win game 1 of the second round. Thats as far as Boston has gotten this year

[GSP]

We were 5-0 with Kyrie too and he was better than Horford through 5 games. Al was terrible against the Pacers last years

[Diop]

This was one of the reasons Charlotte fans liked that kemba was going to a competing team, no one would entertain the argument when he was at Charlotte

[Bidofo]

If nothing else, he’s proven to be far better for their chemistry, which is having very tangible effects imo.

[rand]

First he has to completely ball out in the Finals like Kyrie did

[70sFan]

No he doesn't and although I dislike Irving, I think he's a bit better player overall. The problem is that Kyrie became a headache recently, which is not the problem with Kemba.

[Homer38]

The chemistry in the Celtics locker room is much better this year and it's not even close and Tatum and Brown have taken their next step, which I don't know if it would have been if Kyrie would still be there in Walker's place. ..Too much a big ego

Win or lose, I would be very surprised if the Celtics implode like last year, when they underachieve all year long and they had major problem for the chemistry even before the playoffs

[therealbig3]

I think Kyrie is the better player, but given Kemba's leadership and intangibles as well as his durability, I would take him 10/10 times over Kyrie if I was putting together a team. Like, for the Nets, Kemba and Durant would be a better combo than Kyrie and Durant for those reasons. But they don't get Durant without Kyrie.

[AussieBuck]

Kyrie is better at the very specific role of being the secondary ad-hoc shot creator on Lebron's team. In fact he's probably better at that than a whole stack of better overall players. He is however a giant peanut and had no idea that it was his best role or maybe Lebron was just too much of a patronising big brother. Either way Irving was awesome at that role and well below what his skill-set should provide at every other role he's played.

Kemba was a stretch as an alpha guy but did his best spamming pick and rolls but now he gets to be a comfortable second guy and fits in seamlessly around a trio of wings who need touches. I guess better is a bit nebulous, but most of the time, yes Kemba will add more value to your team than Kyrie even if Kyrie is more talented.

[limbo]

He's at least proven that he can take a step back and play more towards what his team needs him to do on both ends... No way guys like Tatum, Brown get the opportunity/room to flourish in real games the same way with Kyrie there doing his tapdancing impressions... And that goes all the way down the roster.

If Kyrie was James Harden levels good on offense you might have been able to justify giving him the ball and free reigns. But since he's not, you're better of doing what Boston did. Not to mention that Kemba is at least present and playing. Kyrie can't stay healthy to save his career.

[DidUSaySometing]

First he has to completely ball out in the Finals like Kyrie did

He could also play like a star player vs the Bucks in the conference finals — something Kyrie failed to do last year

[Woodsanity]

Kyrie is better but I rather have Kemba who is a better locker room presence and leader. Kyrie is a cancer and diva. Hard pass.

[Jordan Syndrome]

First he has to completely ball out in the Finals like Kyrie did

He could also play like a star player vs the Bucks in the conference finals — something Kyrie failed to do last year

While Kemba Walker "could" play like a star player versus the Bucks this season in the Conference Finals, it isn't a point in favor for Kemba Walker. The event you mention would be an event taking place in the future and the thread specifically uses the term "Has", implying we are only including evidence which has happened in the past.

What rand says is a valid point to argue while your point is very obviously missing the dock, boat and harbor.

[Pelly24]

He's at least proven that he can take a step back and play more towards what his team needs him to do on both ends... No way guys like Tatum, Brown get the opportunity/room to flourish in real games the same way with Kyrie there doing his tapdancing impressions... And that goes all the way down the roster.

If Kyrie was James Harden levels good on offense you might have been able to justify giving him the ball and free reigns. But since he's not, you're better of doing what Boston did. Not to mention that Kemba is at least present and playing. Kyrie can't stay healthy to save his career.

I should have learned to fall back on these, but Kyrie is a far better offensive player than Kemba by every measure in every category, and if he played in a system like the Rockets or Brooklyn for more of his career, he'd average like 28/8 on elite efficiency. The idea that he can't take a step back is wild. He played large chunks of time off the ball with LeBron. Comparing Tatum and Brown from last year to this year's version of both players would be wild, and all of them had as many shots as should have been allowed given that they were both mediocre offensive players last year. Kemba doesnt score efficiently with volume all that effortlessly, and that's why he took a backseat to Brown and Tatum. Kyrie's only averaging 24 ppg while there as his assist rate jumped up is proof that he's able to be successful in this offense. He didn't hog the ball from anyone and would've been justified to take a few more shots per game and ISO more than he did given he's one of the best ISO players and shooters in the league, maybe of all time.

All that is to say why not just enjoy Kemba for what he is and what he's doing? He's been very good. He's been like a top 20-25 player, really closer to 20 depending on how you look at it. He's a much better leader and a less confusing player to be around. He's always smiling and has a great attitude. If you wanted a reasonable composite of a Kyrie type player, he was the best option while not being as good.

Shout out to Kemba.

[DidUSaySometing]

First he has to completely ball out in the Finals like Kyrie did

He could also play like a star player vs the Bucks in the conference finals — something Kyrie failed to do last year

While Kemba Walker "could" play like a star player versus the Bucks this season in the Conference Finals, it isn't a point in favor for Kemba Walker. The event you mention would be an event taking place in the future and the thread specifically uses the term "Has", implying we are only including evidence which has happened in the past.

What rand says is a valid point to argue while your point is very obviously missing the dock, boat and harbor.

Point is Kyrie flopped in the playoffs last year. Anyone who still argues he's still a top 10-15 player should look at the Celtics offense over the past 3 years. The Kemba-led Celtics are a top 5 offense, it's the first time Celtics had a top 5 offense since 1991. I don't care what Kyrie did 4 years ago — Kemba is far more durable and a better leader.

[Pelly24]

He could also play like a star player vs the Bucks in the conference finals — something Kyrie failed to do last year

While Kemba Walker "could" play like a star player versus the Bucks this season in the Conference Finals, it isn't a point in favor for Kemba Walker. The event you mention would be an event taking place in the future and the thread specifically uses the term "Has", implying we are only including evidence which has happened in the past.

What rand says is a valid point to argue while your point is very obviously missing the dock, boat and harbor.

Point is Kyrie flopped in the playoffs last year. Anyone who still argues he's still a top 10-15 player should look at the Celtics offense over the past 3 years. The Kemba-led Celtics are a top 5 offense, it's the first time Celtics had a top 5 offense since 1991. I don't care what Kyrie did 4 years ago — Kemba is far more durable and a better leader.

You're ignoring context. This team has three healthy good starter-to-all-nba wings. Last year they had hodgepodge of maybe average starting to below average wings. Hayward averaged like 17/5/5 on great efficiency, Tatum averaged 23 on 57 TS% and Jaylen is at 20 ppg on 60 TS%. Those are simply not numbers those three were capable of posting last year, and they had every chance to show they could. Those aren't even close to the same circumstances.

Nets gonna beat the celtics next year though so we'll see (assuming KD and Kyrie are healthy)

[O_6]

He's at least proven that he can take a step back and play more towards what his team needs him to do on both ends... No way guys like Tatum, Brown get the opportunity/room to flourish in real games the same way with Kyrie there doing his tapdancing impressions... And that goes all the way down the roster.

If Kyrie was James Harden levels good on offense you might have been able to justify giving him the ball and free reigns. But since he's not, you're better of doing what Boston did. Not to mention that Kemba is at least present and playing. Kyrie can't stay healthy to save his career.

2019 Kyrie ---- 76.8 touches -- 5.5 ToP (Mins of Possession) -- 33.0 MPG
2020 Kemba -- 70.8 touches -- 5.9 ToP (Mins of Possession) -- 31.1 MPG

This idea that Kemba is less of a ball-hog than Kyrie and that's the reason why the Celtics offense is flowing better is a little silly. Kyrie definitely ISO'd more, because he's a more gifted ISO scorer. But overall, Kemba this year actually had the ball for longer than Kyrie did last year. Both guys were the leading ball-handlers on their teams and if anything, Kyrie played a slightly less ball-dependent role on offense last year. But here are how the next 7 players in terms of touches compare, from 2020 to 2019.

2019 Horford ------- 57.0 touches ---- 1.7 ToP --- 29.0 MPG
2019 Rozier --------- 51.9 touches ---- 3.7 ToP --- 22.7 MPG
2019 Smart -------- 46.6 touches ----- 2.6 ToP --- 27.5 MPG
2019 Hayward ----- 45.4 touches ----- 2.0 ToP --- 25.9 MPG
2019 Tatum -------- 45.3 touches ----- 2.0 ToP --- 31.1 MPG
2019 Morris Sr. ---- 43.9 touches ----- 1.5 ToP --- 27.9 MPG
2019 Brown -------- 31.8 touches ----- 1.2 ToP --- 25.9 MPG

2020 Tatum ---------- 68.1 touches --- 3.4 ToP --- 34.3 MPG
2020 Smart ---------- 58.7 touches --- 3.5 ToP --- 32.0 MPG
2020 Hayward ------- 57.7 touches --- 2.8 ToP --- 33.5 MPG
2020 Brown ---------- 49.0 touches --- 2.2 ToP --- 33.9 MPG
2020 Wanamaker --- 38.7 touches --- 2.7 ToP --- 19.3 MPG
2020 Theis ----------- 36.0 touches --- 0.9 ToP --- 24.1 MPG
2020 Kanter --------- 24.1 touches --- 0.7 ToP --- 17.0 MPG

Seems to me the big thing that occurred was that Horford, Rozier, and Morris Sr. leaving opened up the Celtics offense to utilize the Tatum/Hayward/Brown trio more. That trio includes a 21 year old Tatum, a 23 year old Brown, and a recovering from career-altering injury Hayward who were all going to get better in 2020 through natural progression alone. But the increased role on top of the increased ability really allowed them to make a much bigger impact this season than they did last year.

Whether it was with Kyrie or Kemba, the Tatum/Brown/Hayward trio was going to see a bigger role in the offense with Horford/Rozier/Morris gone.

Do I think Kemba being less of a diva than Kyrie could have helped Tatum/Brown/Hayward all feel more comfortable about their role on the team? Yea, I think that's fair to consider. When Tatum ascended during the last few months before the COVID break, Kemba seemed to have no issue with Tatum becoming "the guy" on the Celtics. Kyrie might have acted differently if he was in that position.

This is an interesting question because as far as players on the court, Kyrie is CLEARLY better than Kemba. Kyrie is the kind of player who I completely trust to score efficiently against elite defenses in playoff pressure situations. I don't quite have that trust in Kemba, he's not quite as efficient or skilled as a score and doesn't have the playoff experience. But does Kemba's personality edge make up for that on most teams? It's a weird question, I'll go with the guy I think is the better pure basketball player in Kyrie but I can see the debate.

[limbo]

He's at least proven that he can take a step back and play more towards what his team needs him to do on both ends... No way guys like Tatum, Brown get the opportunity/room to flourish in real games the same way with Kyrie there doing his tapdancing impressions... And that goes all the way down the roster.

If Kyrie was James Harden levels good on offense you might have been able to justify giving him the ball and free reigns. But since he's not, you're better of doing what Boston did. Not to mention that Kemba is at least present and playing. Kyrie can't stay healthy to save his career.

2019 Kyrie ---- 76.8 touches -- 5.5 ToP (Mins of Possession) -- 33.0 MPG
2020 Kemba -- 70.8 touches -- 5.9 ToP (Mins of Possession) -- 31.1 MPG

This idea that Kemba is less of a ball-hog than Kyrie and that's the reason why the Celtics offense is flowing better is a little silly. Kyrie definitely ISO'd more, because he's a more gifted ISO scorer. But overall, Kemba this year actually had the ball for longer than Kyrie did last year. Both guys were the leading ball-handlers on their teams and if anything, Kyrie played a slightly less ball-dependent role on offense last year. But here are how the next 7 players in terms of touches compare, from 2020 to 2019.

2019 Horford ------- 57.0 touches ---- 1.7 ToP --- 29.0 MPG
2019 Rozier --------- 51.9 touches ---- 3.7 ToP --- 22.7 MPG
2019 Smart -------- 46.6 touches ----- 2.6 ToP --- 27.5 MPG
2019 Hayward ----- 45.4 touches ----- 2.0 ToP --- 25.9 MPG
2019 Tatum -------- 45.3 touches ----- 2.0 ToP --- 31.1 MPG
2019 Morris Sr. ---- 43.9 touches ----- 1.5 ToP --- 27.9 MPG
2019 Brown -------- 31.8 touches ----- 1.2 ToP --- 25.9 MPG

2020 Tatum ---------- 68.1 touches --- 3.4 ToP --- 34.3 MPG
2020 Smart ---------- 58.7 touches --- 3.5 ToP --- 32.0 MPG
2020 Hayward ------- 57.7 touches --- 2.8 ToP --- 33.5 MPG
2020 Brown ---------- 49.0 touches --- 2.2 ToP --- 33.9 MPG
2020 Wanamaker --- 38.7 touches --- 2.7 ToP --- 19.3 MPG
2020 Theis ----------- 36.0 touches --- 0.9 ToP --- 24.1 MPG
2020 Kanter --------- 24.1 touches --- 0.7 ToP --- 17.0 MPG

Seems to me the big thing that occurred was that Horford, Rozier, and Morris Sr. leaving opened up the Celtics offense to utilize the Tatum/Hayward/Brown trio more. That trio includes a 21 year old Tatum, a 23 year old Brown, and a recovering from career-altering injury Hayward who were all going to get better in 2020 through natural progression alone. But the increased role on top of the increased ability really allowed them to make a much bigger impact this season than they did last year.

Whether it was with Kyrie or Kemba, the Tatum/Brown/Hayward trio was going to see a bigger role in the offense with Horford/Rozier/Morris gone.

Do I think Kemba being less of a diva than Kyrie could have helped Tatum/Brown/Hayward all feel more comfortable about their role on the team? Yea, I think that's fair to consider. When Tatum ascended during the last few months before the COVID break, Kemba seemed to have no issue with Tatum becoming "the guy" on the Celtics. Kyrie might have acted differently if he was in that position.

This is an interesting question because as far as players on the court, Kyrie is CLEARLY better than Kemba. Kyrie is the kind of player who I completely trust to score efficiently against elite defenses in playoff pressure situations. I don't quite have that trust in Kemba, he's not quite as efficient or skilled as a score and doesn't have the playoff experience. But does Kemba's personality edge make up for that on most teams? It's a weird question, I'll go with the guy I think is the better pure basketball player in Kyrie but I can see the debate.

Thanks for the well thought out post.

[Baski]

Proven he could do better in a similar role at least. And I believe this includes the Cleveland years as well.