The Lebron '20 Thread (Pt. 6)

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The Lebron '20 Thread (Pt. 6) 

Post#1 » by SideshowBob » Tue Sep 1, 2020 3:16 am

Use this new thread.

Old Thread
But in his home dwelling...the hi-top faded warrior is revered. *Smack!* The sound of his palm blocking the basketball... the sound of thousands rising, roaring... the sound of "get that sugar honey iced tea outta here!"
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Re: The Lebron '20 Thread (Pt. 6) 

Post#2 » by Eddy_JukeZ » Tue Sep 1, 2020 3:18 am

Houston in a bit of trouble.

Westbrook has looked rather poor again.
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Re: The Lebron '20 Thread (Pt. 6) 

Post#3 » by picko » Tue Sep 1, 2020 4:03 am

Westbrook looks like a shadow of the guy that was monstering the league throughout January and February. Hard to imagine the Rockets providing even a modest threat to the Lakers if he isn't 100%.
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Re: The Lebron '20 Thread (Pt. 6) 

Post#4 » by MyUniBroDavis » Tue Sep 1, 2020 4:46 am

freethedevil wrote:Not really. The screen-setter needs to be big, and sturdy enough to keep the perimiter defender in question in check, that's why those kind of screens(playing specifically off the pnr threat) are almost ecxlcusively done by bigs. And with giannis, the screens are super effectiev since teams usually save two defenders for his potential lobs while most bigs only get one.


Bro why are you still commenting on the part 5 thread lol

I really got my computer out for arguing about ball screens lmao smh

https://stats.nba.com/events/?flag=3&CFID=&CFPARAMS=&PlayerID=0&TeamID=1610612749&GameID=0041900201&ContextMeasure=FG3M&Season=2019-20&SeasonType=Playoffs&RangeType=0&StartPeriod=1&EndPeriod=10&StartRange=0&EndRange=28800&section=game&sct=plot

Giannis literally sets a horrible screen for this one and its well contested and a difficult make

https://stats.nba.com/events/?flag=3&CFID=&CFPARAMS=&PlayerID=0&TeamID=1610612749&GameID=0041900201&ContextMeasure=FG3M&Season=2019-20&SeasonType=Playoffs&RangeType=0&StartPeriod=1&EndPeriod=10&StartRange=0&EndRange=28800&section=game&sct=plot

His screen doesnt make contact Tyler doesnt go over it correctly (nothing to do with giannis)

https://stats.nba.com/events/?flag=3&CFID=&CFPARAMS=&PlayerID=0&TeamID=1610612749&GameID=0041900201&ContextMeasure=FG3M&Season=2019-20&SeasonType=Playoffs&RangeType=0&StartPeriod=1&EndPeriod=10&StartRange=0&EndRange=28800&section=game&sct=plot

its a handoff so like yeah lmao

Not a single one of these were unique to Giannis, in fact when I originally said you needed a scoring threat center that wasnt even valid for these lol, you just need any center in the league at all.

https://stats.nba.com/events/?flag=1&CFID=&CFPARAMS=&PlayerID=203507&TeamID=1610612749&GameID=0041900201&ContextMeasure=AST&Season=2019-20&SeasonType=Playoffs&RangeType=0&StartPeriod=1&EndPeriod=10&StartRange=0&EndRange=28800&section=game&sct=plot

Wait im looking at all of Giannis assists now he absolutely did not create like lebron lmfao he didnt even create more than he usually does other than the bucks running more handoff sets than usual

That said this is really not the point here. Klay thompson sets a screen which leads to an open bucket, klay thompson makes a pass that leads to an open bucket. Why is the altter event inherently more valuable than the former.
I'm not understanding why you think the average assist is easier to do then a oppurtunity off a screen or why you think its less valuable. If the value is the same, they should be counted as the same.


Because assists are different from screen assists.
When Giannis fulfills his part in a handoff play like most of the ones above he does what every other nba center could have done in place of him (and so far not a single one of these handoff plays ive seen relies on Giannis's gravity, the korver one being the only possible exception but htats also lowkey how alot of teams defend handoffs now anyway even when they arent playing the bucks)

When you set a good screen you fulfill a role designed in the offense that any other center with legs and a brain could have done

assists require a level of decision making. Not every assist is equal, at least compared to screens

the majority of screens are from set plays or ball screens. Essentially your fulfilling a set role in teh offense anyone else could fill out

However, the way the defense reacts to an offensive play requires a level of decision making. Example, when you defend the ball screen, you can trap, hedge, switch, ice, etc it. the way to beat this does somewhat rely on the roll man, but for the most part its up to the ball handler to make the right read. this applies to for various other situations, such as seeing people off ball well.

Giannis as a playmaker is good in transition, and can use the threat of his drive well for kickouts, although hes not as good at seeing these opportunities as lebron is. the bigger windows he has somewhat makes up for it though. In the halfcourt outside of drives hes not particularly good as a playmaker at all to be honest

but NONE of his handoffs or ballscreen "assists" were things any other competent center in the nba couldnt do. Giannis doesnt set better screens than the average nba center either, you can say hes more of a threat on the roll but that wasnt really a valid point in terms of the screens he set that led to threes here because they didnt defend those ball screens in the way that that is a valid point according to the film here

Now, Lebron is probably top 3 in teh NBA at kickouts, if not the best, but hes also the best at spotting cutters, top 3 in the pick and roll, and the best at spotting weaknesses in teh defense and adjustements they make and adapting to it as a playmaker, if not outright orchestrating it himself. What makes it more impressive in his regard is the ways the defense can react to laker stuff is alot different than the way defenses react to Rockets and Mavs stuff, which are pretty simplistic systems of 5 out + ball screens,whereas lebron actually can kind of adapt to how they react to minutia of the plays they run better if that makes sense

Giannis isnt close in this regard, he does not playmake like lebron, that is ridiculous. Today off my count only 3 of his assists werent in transition and werent just handoffs that literally I could do If i was a 7 footer (and no that isnt an exagerration).

Obviously an assist where you throw the ball to someone and they make a play doesnt have alot of value. but this is pretty much the same as the screens giannis set that you are talking about.

none of them were particularly good screens. none of them used his gravity or anything to get open threes (which is something all the good centers in the league can do anyway), and none of them had defenses react in a way that was unique to Giannis.

Out of his assists, outside of his transition assists (which again he is no where near lebron in anyway), there were like 3 assists that were kickouts from his drives or gravity. keep in mind that this is the type of playmaking lebron succesfully does 90% of the time, and that Giannis misses or does too late half the time too.

Giannis had a decent game. He was great defensively, wasnt great on offense. His playmaking wasnt particularly impressive, not even NEAR lebron level, and his scoring was Ok (although Giannis is supposed to score more effeciently than most because of his role).

I dont mind him not guarding butler because he wasnt told to, and it was a horrible game where he showed he cant hang no matter what, but he was pretty invisible during stretches and dissapeared. he wasnt doing anything special as a passer either.

Compared to the crap Bron and them have done so far it wasnt really impressive.

This is kind of the thing when people are comparing Luka and Harden to lebron sometimes. Luka and Harden are both in 5 out or 4 out 1 in systems meant to increase their offensive production. If you wanna see what Lebron looks like running that system, you just look at his cavs playoff runs, but even in those runs they werent running as exclusively those systems like the other 2 are. Lebron runs the pick and roll better than harden and doncic do taking everything into account, because hes a better scorer off of it (as good as doncic and harden are they arent better scoreres against mismatches and downhill on teh pick and roll as lebron is with space) and hes playmaking ability off of the P and R is the same as the others, although he isnt as flashy as harden is he makes less mistakes running it.

Giannis isnt in teh same stratosphere as any of these guys as playmakers. screen assists, when he doesnt set particuarly good screens anyways, doesnt mean much here
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Re: The Lebron '20 Thread (Pt. 6) 

Post#5 » by xb3at band1tx » Tue Sep 1, 2020 4:48 am

Yeah with this version of Russ, HOU would be lucky to steal 1 game from LA.
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Re: The Lebron '20 Thread (Pt. 6) 

Post#6 » by GSP » Tue Sep 1, 2020 4:54 am

Told yall about Okc being able to beat Houston

Think they are actually a tougher matchup for La as well than Houston
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Re: The Lebron '20 Thread (Pt. 6) 

Post#7 » by MyUniBroDavis » Tue Sep 1, 2020 4:56 am

GSP wrote:Told yall about Okc being able to beat Houston

Think they are actually a tougher matchup for La as well than Houston


Houstans just scarier in the sense that its more complicated strats wise and its hard to be a laker fan and expect good coaching decisions to be made, well a lebron fan too act lmfao
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Re: The Lebron '20 Thread (Pt. 6) 

Post#8 » by MyUniBroDavis » Tue Sep 1, 2020 5:08 am

freethedevil wrote:


Also, giannis didnt really score effeciently at all, if you take into account free throw shooting. He took 18 possessions to score 18 points give or take, which is pretty meh. He had like 3-4 good assists but 6 turnovers and a few moments where he didnt give the ball up in time and stagnated the offense
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Re: The Lebron '20 Thread (Pt. 6) 

Post#9 » by kayess » Tue Sep 1, 2020 5:16 am

I knew Giannis would have a phase similar to 2010 ECF/11 Finals LeBron, but didn't expect it to be as stark because I thought the guys around him and gameplanning would be able to compensate (which is sorta what happened this game)

Unlike LeBron though he hasn't shown the 2006-2009 stretch of great playoffs showings to hang back on, so his trajectory's slightly askew from that POV.

I think he also probably needs to go the LeBron route of being able to create out of the post when the team needs buckets
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Re: The Lebron '20 Thread (Pt. 6) 

Post#10 » by MyUniBroDavis » Tue Sep 1, 2020 5:17 am

Wait giannis will prolly be fine next game lol lets chill with the 2011 comparisons
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Re: The Lebron '20 Thread (Pt. 6) 

Post#11 » by Joey Wheeler » Tue Sep 1, 2020 5:21 am

OKC winning game 7 would would be great for the Lakers, it'd be an easier series than Portland even.
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Re: The Lebron '20 Thread (Pt. 6) 

Post#12 » by Joey Wheeler » Tue Sep 1, 2020 5:25 am

As for the Bucks and Giannis, they pose no threat whatsoever imo. Vastly overrated based on eye popping RS numbers. The Heat could very well win that series, Butler is a more reliable player than Giannis at the end of games.
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Re: The Lebron '20 Thread (Pt. 6) 

Post#13 » by MyUniBroDavis » Tue Sep 1, 2020 5:34 am

Joey Wheeler wrote:OKC winning game 7 would would be great for the Lakers, it'd be an easier series than Portland even.


Okc is def harder than portland was, we had good tools to eliminate portlands only threat

Otoh i wanna see lebron vs lu dolt lol
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Re: The Lebron '20 Thread (Pt. 6) 

Post#14 » by dcstanley » Tue Sep 1, 2020 5:56 am

I think an OKC series would be a five gamer. Dennis’ penetration is going to be neutralized, Adams isn’t going to be as effective on the boards, helping off Dort is going to make the Lakers defense even more dominant (I’d have AD guard him if he starts), Lebron has the tools to guard Gallo reasonably well (Kuzma might be able to as well). Shai might be a tough matchup for DG but AD will deter him
from attacking the rim.
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Re: The Lebron '20 Thread (Pt. 6) 

Post#15 » by freethedevil » Tue Sep 1, 2020 6:18 am

MyUniBroDavis wrote:
freethedevil wrote:Not really. The screen-setter needs to be big, and sturdy enough to keep the perimiter defender in question in check, that's why those kind of screens(playing specifically off the pnr threat) are almost ecxlcusively done by bigs. And with giannis, the screens are super effectiev since teams usually save two defenders for his potential lobs while most bigs only get one.


Bro why are you still commenting on the part 5 thread lol
[/quote]
Didn't know there was a part 6.

I really got my computer out for arguing about ball screens lmao smh

https://stats.nba.com/events/?flag=3&CFID=&CFPARAMS=&PlayerID=0&TeamID=1610612749&GameID=0041900201&ContextMeasure=FG3M&Season=2019-20&SeasonType=Playoffs&RangeType=0&StartPeriod=1&EndPeriod=10&StartRange=0&EndRange=28800&section=game&sct=plot

Giannis literally sets a horrible screen for this one and its well contested and a difficult make

Fair enough yeah, i agree not impressive

https://stats.nba.com/events/?flag=3&CFID=&CFPARAMS=&PlayerID=0&TeamID=1610612749&GameID=0041900201&ContextMeasure=FG3M&Season=2019-20&SeasonType=Playoffs&RangeType=0&StartPeriod=1&EndPeriod=10&StartRange=0&EndRange=28800&section=game&sct=plot

His screen doesnt make contact Tyler doesnt go over it correctly (nothing to do with giannis)
i see the same video you just linked me to
https://stats.nba.com/events/?flag=3&CFID=&CFPARAMS=&PlayerID=0&TeamID=1610612749&GameID=0041900201&ContextMeasure=FG3M&Season=2019-20&SeasonType=Playoffs&RangeType=0&StartPeriod=1&EndPeriod=10&StartRange=0&EndRange=28800&section=game&sct=plot
uh, i got linked to the exact same video as the first
its a handoff so like yeah lmao

Not a single one of these were unique to Giannis, in fact when I originally said you needed a scoring threat center that wasnt even valid for these lol, you just need any center in the league at all.

Okay, i just saw the same video three times. The other screens i counted were

1.A screen set in the first quarter which game his teamamte on the elbow acres of space.

2. A screen on the second quarter where there was an open dude in the corner. The defender does get near him, but by the time he does dude's already on a follow through so by bball breakdown def, thats's an open shot.


https://stats.nba.com/events/?flag=1&CFID=&CFPARAMS=&PlayerID=203507&TeamID=1610612749&GameID=0041900201&ContextMeasure=AST&Season=2019-20&SeasonType=Playoffs&RangeType=0&StartPeriod=1&EndPeriod=10&StartRange=0&EndRange=28800&section=game&sct=plot

Bruh, pause at 0:8, how is creating off a triple team not ridiculous creation. He's drawing THREE defenders at once.
Wait im looking at all of Giannis assists now he absolutely did not create like lebron lmfao he didnt even create more than he usually does other than the bucks running more handoff sets than usual

That said this is really not the point here. Klay thompson sets a screen which leads to an open bucket, klay thompson makes a pass that leads to an open bucket. Why is the altter event inherently more valuable than the former.
I'm not understanding why you think the average assist is easier to do then a oppurtunity off a screen or why you think its less valuable. If the value is the same, they should be counted as the same.


Because assists are different from screen assists.
When Giannis fulfills his part in a handoff play like most of the ones above he does what every other nba center could have done in place of him (and so far not a single one of these handoff plays ive seen relies on Giannis's gravity, the korver one being the only possible exception but htats also lowkey how alot of teams defend handoffs now anyway even when they arent playing the bucks)

When you set a good screen you fulfill a role designed in the offense that any other center with legs and a brain could have done

assists require a level of decision making. Not every assist is equal, at least compared to screens

the majority of screens are from set plays or ball screens. Essentially your fulfilling a set role in teh offense anyone else could fill out

However, the way the defense reacts to an offensive play requires a level of decision making. Example, when you defend the ball screen, you can trap, hedge, switch, ice, etc it. the way to beat this does somewhat rely on the roll man, but for the most part its up to the ball handler to make the right read. this applies to for various other situations, such as seeing people off ball well.

Giannis as a playmaker is good in transition, and can use the threat of his drive well for kickouts, although hes not as good at seeing these opportunities as lebron is. the bigger windows he has somewhat makes up for it though. In the halfcourt outside of drives hes not particularly good as a playmaker at all to be honest

but NONE of his handoffs or ballscreen "assists" were things any other competent center in the nba couldnt do. Giannis doesnt set better screens than the average nba center either, you can say hes more of a threat on the roll but that wasnt really a valid point in terms of the screens he set that led to threes here because they didnt defend those ball screens in the way that that is a valid point according to the film here

Now, Lebron is probably top 3 in teh NBA at kickouts, if not the best, but hes also the best at spotting cutters, top 3 in the pick and roll, and the best at spotting weaknesses in teh defense and adjustements they make and adapting to it as a playmaker, if not outright orchestrating it himself. What makes it more impressive in his regard is the ways the defense can react to laker stuff is alot different than the way defenses react to Rockets and Mavs stuff, which are pretty simplistic systems of 5 out + ball screens,whereas lebron actually can kind of adapt to how they react to minutia of the plays they run better if that makes sense
I was specifically referring to two of giannis' layup passes. Both of which were bullet precise, involved manipulation of the defense and were from the back, Lebron's a better kickout passer and layup passer for sure, I'm just sayin gthis game, giannis created two layups that he susually doesn't make. Lebron's always been good at kickouts but what's made him the best passer in the league this season is his layup passing. I'd also say this game his passes weren't off like they are sometimes.
Giannis isnt close in this regard, he does not playmake like lebron, that is ridiculous. Today off my count only 3 of his assists werent in transition and werent just handoffs that literally I could do If i was a 7 footer (and no that isnt an exagerration).
I mean, i don tthink transition passing is inherently less valauable. Like the play you dismissed earlier where he got three defenders on him is definitely top quality creation. Really only thing more valuable woul dbe layup passes, which giannis made two of.
Obviously an assist where you throw the ball to someone and they make a play doesnt have alot of value. but this is pretty much the same as the screens giannis set that you are talking about.

none of them were particularly good screens. none of them used his gravity or anything to get open threes (which is something all the good centers in the league can do anyway), and none of them had defenses react in a way that was unique to Giannis.
the links aren't working, but i'll take your word for it. I guess i'd have to agree the average superstar assist is more valuable. I think watchign the warriors has made me oversensitive to assist padding.


Out of his assists, outside of his transition assists (which again he is no where near lebron in anyway), there were like 3 assists that were kickouts from his drives or gravity. keep in mind that this is the type of playmaking lebron succesfully does 90% of the time, and that Giannis misses or does too late half the time too.
Okay but my point is giannis wasn't missing half the time with his kickouts today. Also, the end game here is creation. Giannis's drives automatically get three men collpasing in the middle. Lebron does'n't get that anymore.
Giannis had a decent game. He was great defensively, wasnt great on offense. His playmaking wasnt particularly impressive, not even NEAR lebron level, and his scoring was Ok (although Giannis is supposed to score more effeciently than most because of his role).
[b]I'd say his scoiring was less than okay when you consider turnovers off his drives, but getting two layup assists, and hitting all his kickouts today akes hia passing alot better at least compared ot how he usually plays. Like maybe lebron is off, but i think equating his playmaking today to what harden usually does would still represent a significant improveent right?[/b]
I dont mind him not guarding butler because he wasnt told to, and it was a horrible game where he showed he cant hang no matter what, but he was pretty invisible during stretches and dissapeared. he wasnt doing anything special as a passer either.

Compared to the crap Bron and them have done so far it wasnt really impressive.

This is kind of the thing when people are comparing Luka and Harden to lebron sometimes. Luka and Harden are both in 5 out or 4 out 1 in systems meant to increase their offensive production. If you wanna see what Lebron looks like running that system, you just look at his cavs playoff runs, but even in those runs they werent running as exclusively those systems like the other 2 are. Lebron runs the pick and roll better than harden and doncic do taking everything into account, because hes a better scorer off of it (as good as doncic and harden are they arent better scoreres against mismatches and downhill on teh pick and roll as lebron is with space) and hes playmaking ability off of the P and R is the same as the others, although he isnt as flashy as harden is he makes less mistakes running it.

Giannis isnt in teh same stratosphere as any of these guys as playmakers. screen assists, when he doesnt set particuarly good screens anyways, doesnt mean much here

Okay, for some reason, half of your post is commneting on how giannis generally plays as opposed to how he played today, which is really my point. I'll concede on getting hyped on screen assists, but even then, he had like 3 turnovers max on playmaking, the three man wall makes his kickouts valuable and means that giannis being unusually accurate on them represents a significant upgrade in value creatively. Anyway, I'll leave it here I guess, I'm sleepy.
[/quote]
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Re: The Lebron '20 Thread (Pt. 6) 

Post#16 » by Dupp » Tue Sep 1, 2020 6:36 am

GSP wrote:Told yall about Okc being able to beat Houston

Think they are actually a tougher matchup for La as well than Houston


I still don’t believe it but I’ll probably be wrong.


Chris Paul is good.
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Re: The Lebron '20 Thread (Pt. 6) 

Post#17 » by MyUniBroDavis » Tue Sep 1, 2020 7:32 am

freethedevil wrote:
MyUniBroDavis wrote:
freethedevil wrote:
Bro why are you still commenting on the part 5 thread lol

Didn't know there was a part 6.

I really got my computer out for arguing about ball screens lmao smh

https://stats.nba.com/events/?flag=3&CFID=&CFPARAMS=&PlayerID=0&TeamID=1610612749&GameID=0041900201&ContextMeasure=FG3M&Season=2019-20&SeasonType=Playoffs&RangeType=0&StartPeriod=1&EndPeriod=10&StartRange=0&EndRange=28800&section=game&sct=plot

Giannis literally sets a horrible screen for this one and its well contested and a difficult make

Fair enough yeah, i agree not impressive

https://stats.nba.com/events/?flag=3&CFID=&CFPARAMS=&PlayerID=0&TeamID=1610612749&GameID=0041900201&ContextMeasure=FG3M&Season=2019-20&SeasonType=Playoffs&RangeType=0&StartPeriod=1&EndPeriod=10&StartRange=0&EndRange=28800&section=game&sct=plot

His screen doesnt make contact Tyler doesnt go over it correctly (nothing to do with giannis)
i see the same video you just linked me to
https://stats.nba.com/events/?flag=3&CFID=&CFPARAMS=&PlayerID=0&TeamID=1610612749&GameID=0041900201&ContextMeasure=FG3M&Season=2019-20&SeasonType=Playoffs&RangeType=0&StartPeriod=1&EndPeriod=10&StartRange=0&EndRange=28800&section=game&sct=plot
uh, i got linked to the exact same video as the first
its a handoff so like yeah lmao

Not a single one of these were unique to Giannis, in fact when I originally said you needed a scoring threat center that wasnt even valid for these lol, you just need any center in the league at all.

Okay, i just saw the same video three times. The other screens i counted were

1.A screen set in the first quarter which game his teamamte on the elbow acres of space.

2. A screen on the second quarter where there was an open dude in the corner. The defender does get near him, but by the time he does dude's already on a follow through so by bball breakdown def, thats's an open shot.


https://stats.nba.com/events/?flag=1&CFID=&CFPARAMS=&PlayerID=203507&TeamID=1610612749&GameID=0041900201&ContextMeasure=AST&Season=2019-20&SeasonType=Playoffs&RangeType=0&StartPeriod=1&EndPeriod=10&StartRange=0&EndRange=28800&section=game&sct=plot

Bruh, pause at 0:8, how is creating off a triple team not ridiculous creation. He's drawing THREE defenders at once.
Wait im looking at all of Giannis assists now he absolutely did not create like lebron lmfao he didnt even create more than he usually does other than the bucks running more handoff sets than usual

That said this is really not the point here. Klay thompson sets a screen which leads to an open bucket, klay thompson makes a pass that leads to an open bucket. Why is the altter event inherently more valuable than the former.
I'm not understanding why you think the average assist is easier to do then a oppurtunity off a screen or why you think its less valuable. If the value is the same, they should be counted as the same.


Because assists are different from screen assists.
When Giannis fulfills his part in a handoff play like most of the ones above he does what every other nba center could have done in place of him (and so far not a single one of these handoff plays ive seen relies on Giannis's gravity, the korver one being the only possible exception but htats also lowkey how alot of teams defend handoffs now anyway even when they arent playing the bucks)

When you set a good screen you fulfill a role designed in the offense that any other center with legs and a brain could have done

assists require a level of decision making. Not every assist is equal, at least compared to screens

the majority of screens are from set plays or ball screens. Essentially your fulfilling a set role in teh offense anyone else could fill out

However, the way the defense reacts to an offensive play requires a level of decision making. Example, when you defend the ball screen, you can trap, hedge, switch, ice, etc it. the way to beat this does somewhat rely on the roll man, but for the most part its up to the ball handler to make the right read. this applies to for various other situations, such as seeing people off ball well.

Giannis as a playmaker is good in transition, and can use the threat of his drive well for kickouts, although hes not as good at seeing these opportunities as lebron is. the bigger windows he has somewhat makes up for it though. In the halfcourt outside of drives hes not particularly good as a playmaker at all to be honest

but NONE of his handoffs or ballscreen "assists" were things any other competent center in the nba couldnt do. Giannis doesnt set better screens than the average nba center either, you can say hes more of a threat on the roll but that wasnt really a valid point in terms of the screens he set that led to threes here because they didnt defend those ball screens in the way that that is a valid point according to the film here

Now, Lebron is probably top 3 in teh NBA at kickouts, if not the best, but hes also the best at spotting cutters, top 3 in the pick and roll, and the best at spotting weaknesses in teh defense and adjustements they make and adapting to it as a playmaker, if not outright orchestrating it himself. What makes it more impressive in his regard is the ways the defense can react to laker stuff is alot different than the way defenses react to Rockets and Mavs stuff, which are pretty simplistic systems of 5 out + ball screens,whereas lebron actually can kind of adapt to how they react to minutia of the plays they run better if that makes sense
I was specifically referring to two of giannis' layup passes. Both of which were bullet precise, involved manipulation of the defense and were from the back, Lebron's a better kickout passer and layup passer for sure, I'm just sayin gthis game, giannis created two layups that he susually doesn't make. Lebron's always been good at kickouts but what's made him the best passer in the league this season is his layup passing. I'd also say this game his passes weren't off like they are sometimes.
Giannis isnt close in this regard, he does not playmake like lebron, that is ridiculous. Today off my count only 3 of his assists werent in transition and werent just handoffs that literally I could do If i was a 7 footer (and no that isnt an exagerration).
I mean, i don tthink transition passing is inherently less valauable. Like the play you dismissed earlier where he got three defenders on him is definitely top quality creation. Really only thing more valuable woul dbe layup passes, which giannis made two of.
Obviously an assist where you throw the ball to someone and they make a play doesnt have alot of value. but this is pretty much the same as the screens giannis set that you are talking about.

none of them were particularly good screens. none of them used his gravity or anything to get open threes (which is something all the good centers in the league can do anyway), and none of them had defenses react in a way that was unique to Giannis.
the links aren't working, but i'll take your word for it. I guess i'd have to agree the average superstar assist is more valuable. I think watchign the warriors has made me oversensitive to assist padding.


Out of his assists, outside of his transition assists (which again he is no where near lebron in anyway), there were like 3 assists that were kickouts from his drives or gravity. keep in mind that this is the type of playmaking lebron succesfully does 90% of the time, and that Giannis misses or does too late half the time too.
Okay but my point is giannis wasn't missing half the time with his kickouts today. Also, the end game here is creation. Giannis's drives automatically get three men collpasing in the middle. Lebron does'n't get that anymore.
Giannis had a decent game. He was great defensively, wasnt great on offense. His playmaking wasnt particularly impressive, not even NEAR lebron level, and his scoring was Ok (although Giannis is supposed to score more effeciently than most because of his role).
[b]I'd say his scoiring was less than okay when you consider turnovers off his drives, but getting two layup assists, and hitting all his kickouts today akes hia passing alot better at least compared ot how he usually plays. Like maybe lebron is off, but i think equating his playmaking today to what harden usually does would still represent a significant improveent right?[/b]
I dont mind him not guarding butler because he wasnt told to, and it was a horrible game where he showed he cant hang no matter what, but he was pretty invisible during stretches and dissapeared. he wasnt doing anything special as a passer either.

Compared to the crap Bron and them have done so far it wasnt really impressive.

This is kind of the thing when people are comparing Luka and Harden to lebron sometimes. Luka and Harden are both in 5 out or 4 out 1 in systems meant to increase their offensive production. If you wanna see what Lebron looks like running that system, you just look at his cavs playoff runs, but even in those runs they werent running as exclusively those systems like the other 2 are. Lebron runs the pick and roll better than harden and doncic do taking everything into account, because hes a better scorer off of it (as good as doncic and harden are they arent better scoreres against mismatches and downhill on teh pick and roll as lebron is with space) and hes playmaking ability off of the P and R is the same as the others, although he isnt as flashy as harden is he makes less mistakes running it.

Giannis isnt in teh same stratosphere as any of these guys as playmakers. screen assists, when he doesnt set particuarly good screens anyways, doesnt mean much here

Okay, for some reason, half of your post is commneting on how giannis generally plays as opposed to how he played today, which is really my point. I'll concede on getting hyped on screen assists, but even then, he had like 3 turnovers max on playmaking, the three man wall makes his kickouts valuable and means that giannis being unusually accurate on them represents a significant upgrade in value creatively. Anyway, I'll leave it here I guess, I'm sleepy.
[/quote][/quote][/quote][/quote]

The quotes got messed up but just a few points cuz im watching anime rn

1. Its not that he misses the kickouts its be misses kickout opportunities or does so pretty late

2. There are two kinda of transition opportunities, one where you create it and one where you act in it if that makes sense. Lebrons playmaking creates transition opportunities that otherwise wouldnt be there, giannis's is more about his transition game in general, he has one of the best transition games in the league, but thats built of his scoring. His actual playmaking in transition isnt special, but it is made so by his insane gravity.

On the triple team, in transition pretty much all the freight train bois get people converging kn them, giannis more so than others but still

Transition opportunities become less common in the playoffs

Heavy disagree on layup passing being lebrons best playmaking skill its 100% his decision making. Giannis was more accurate in his passes today yes but his ability to see passing windows is still alot lower than the top playmakers in the league, and in terms of pure playmakinf its not fully offset by his immense gravity

Bron has a pretty insane ability to read the D, imo more so than harden or doncic do (although theyre in that next tier). Giannis isnt really a guy that can read the Ds tendencies that way at all yet.

Like if we were to super oversimplify passing into:

Pick and roll playmaking
Finding cutters
Off the drive
Transition passing
Freelance decision making

Giannis is great at passing off of drives and his other talents make him overall a great passer in transition but he laga behind the others in the other areas (freelance was more etc). Lebrons ability in the last area is what sets him apart as a playmaker from the rest of the league imo, keep in mind the lakers offensive system is hardly anything special

Layup passing is far from what makes lebron special as a playmaker, giannis still was missing windows and reacting late, altho i didnt catch the whole game. Not like a hes horrible kind of way but it wasnt a top tier playamker level of play or anything too
oof
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Re: The Lebron '20 Thread (Pt. 6) 

Post#18 » by Mos_Heat » Tue Sep 1, 2020 8:51 am

With the way Westbrook looks, Houston wouldn't be much of a problem.
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Re: The Lebron '20 Thread (Pt. 6) 

Post#19 » by Heej » Tue Sep 1, 2020 12:42 pm

I've always been more worried about OKC tbh cuz when Chris Paul feels like it he's fake the best LeBron defender in NBA history. I've never seen LeBron as helpless against someone as he is against CP. Even in the post it feels like CP strips him at will.
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Re: The Lebron '20 Thread (Pt. 6) 

Post#20 » by PistolPeteJR » Tue Sep 1, 2020 12:54 pm

GSP wrote:Told yall about Okc being able to beat Houston

Think they are actually a tougher matchup for La as well than Houston


I don't see it. OKC has the much better guard perimeter defense, particularly man-to-man, but all LAL needs to do is live in the post through LeBron and AD against a team that likes to dish out three point guards at once. In addition, OKC doesn't go small, keeping Adams or Noel in almost all the time, which allows LAL to play to their advantage and keep their bigs as well. Finally, all LAL needs to do is defend the paint and contest enough on the perimeter (not nearly as much as vs the Blazers), and that's it.

It's much different vs Houston, where you'd have to defend the three-point line and then defend both Harden from doing his thing AND Westbrook's dynamo-like offense vs 4-out. Also, Houston's length when it comes to double-teaming AD aggressively in the post has the potential to be very disturbing for LAL, who also would have to play AD pretty much exclusively at the 5.

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