Giannis vs Anthony Davis

[Pelly24]

I think Giannis is clearly better than AD. Giannis can probably take almost any team to 45 or 50 wins mostly by himself because he's an elite defender and an unstoppable scorer during the regular season. He can create his own shot at will and he's a better passer and ballhandler and a more forceful athlete. With that said, his lack of skills maybe makes him more suited for a 2ndary role in offense, kinda like AD. I don't know that he'd def. be better in a secondary role. AD playing with LeBron is nigh unstoppable honestly. Just too rangy, too fluid, to quick a leaper, too much dexterity, too much body control, reflexes are too good. Midrange touch and face up game are borderline elite.

[LukaTheGOAT]

I think Giannis is clearly better than AD. Giannis can probably take almost any team to 45 or 50 wins mostly by himself because he's an elite defender and an unstoppable scorer during the regular season. He can create his own shot at will and he's a better passer and ballhandler and a more forceful athlete. With that said, his lack of skills maybe makes him more suited for a 2ndary role in offense, kinda like AD. I don't know that he'd def. be better in a secondary role. AD playing with LeBron is nigh unstoppable honestly. Just too rangy, too fluid, to quick a leaper, too much dexterity, too much body control, reflexes are too good. Midrange touch and face up game are borderline elite.

Yeah but that is kind of people's point. Giannis is the better RS floor-raiser. However, if Giannis is stopped by elite defenses then perhaps having him as a #1 option brings only so much championship equity and therefore Davis being a better off-ball player might be easier to fit into lineups and help more teams win championships.

[Pelly24]

I think Giannis is clearly better than AD. Giannis can probably take almost any team to 45 or 50 wins mostly by himself because he's an elite defender and an unstoppable scorer during the regular season. He can create his own shot at will and he's a better passer and ballhandler and a more forceful athlete. With that said, his lack of skills maybe makes him more suited for a 2ndary role in offense, kinda like AD. I don't know that he'd def. be better in a secondary role. AD playing with LeBron is nigh unstoppable honestly. Just too rangy, too fluid, to quick a leaper, too much dexterity, too much body control, reflexes are too good. Midrange touch and face up game are borderline elite.

Yeah but that is kind of people's point. Giannis is the better RS floor-raiser. However, if Giannis is stopped by elite defenses then perhaps having him as a #1 option brings only so much championship equity and therefore Davis being a better off-ball player might be easier to fit into lineups and help more teams win championships.

Right. I just think the gulf in their floor raising makes it too much of a gap to give it to AD. And honestly, put AD and Giannis on the floor with three other shooters and literally nothing else matters. They'll easily win a championship. That's just too much force and athleticism and space coming at you. I think you could argue they'd be more dominant than LeBron and AD. With Lebron passing to Giannis? You can forget about it.

[LukaTheGOAT]

I think Giannis is clearly better than AD. Giannis can probably take almost any team to 45 or 50 wins mostly by himself because he's an elite defender and an unstoppable scorer during the regular season. He can create his own shot at will and he's a better passer and ballhandler and a more forceful athlete. With that said, his lack of skills maybe makes him more suited for a 2ndary role in offense, kinda like AD. I don't know that he'd def. be better in a secondary role. AD playing with LeBron is nigh unstoppable honestly. Just too rangy, too fluid, to quick a leaper, too much dexterity, too much body control, reflexes are too good. Midrange touch and face up game are borderline elite.

Yeah but that is kind of people's point. Giannis is the better RS floor-raiser. However, if Giannis is stopped by elite defenses then perhaps having him as a #1 option brings only so much championship equity and therefore Davis being a better off-ball player might be easier to fit into lineups and help more teams win championships.

Right. I just think the gulf in their floor raising makes it too much of a gap to give it to AD. And honestly, put AD and Giannis on the floor with three other shooters and literally nothing else matters. They'll easily win a championship. That's just too much force and athleticism and space coming at you. I think you could argue they'd be more dominant than LeBron and AD. With Lebron passing to Giannis? You can forget about it.

I gotcha.

[Rapcity_11]

Failing as the system on the offense isnt the same as the system failing you.

You dont get bonus points for taking a bigger responsibility and failing, and you dont lose point for the system failing you.

So Giannis is better and had more responsibility and had his team perform much better and that's somehow a negative for him? Ok.

No, giannis performed worse under a larger role where the failure was more on his shortcomings.

Having a harder responsibility doesnt suddenly mean its ok when you fail or hardens 2018 series against the warriors is the greatest of all time

Which means you're punishing Giannis for being the superior player and raising his teams expectations....

[mademan]

I dont see AD leading the Bucks to that kind of RS. I also think the Bucks have a much better shot against the Heat with AD than Giannis

[freethedevil]

I think Giannis is clearly better than AD. Giannis can probably take almost any team to 45 or 50 wins mostly by himself because he's an elite defender and an unstoppable scorer during the regular season. He can create his own shot at will and he's a better passer and ballhandler and a more forceful athlete. With that said, his lack of skills maybe makes him more suited for a 2ndary role in offense, kinda like AD. I don't know that he'd def. be better in a secondary role. AD playing with LeBron is nigh unstoppable honestly. Just too rangy, too fluid, to quick a leaper, too much dexterity, too much body control, reflexes are too good. Midrange touch and face up game are borderline elite.

Yeah but that is kind of people's point. Giannis is the better RS floor-raiser. However, if Giannis is stopped by elite defenses then perhaps having him as a #1 option brings only so much championship equity and therefore Davis being a better off-ball player might be easier to fit into lineups and help more teams win championships.

You don't neccesarily need to be able to smash elite offences if you can anchor atg defenses, which giannis did last postseason and this rs.

For some reason that atg defense regressed to meh in the bubble, which is probably the biggest reason for their upset.

[freethedevil]

Failing as the system on the offense isnt the same as the system failing you.

You dont get bonus points for taking a bigger responsibility and failing, and you dont lose point for the system failing you.

So Giannis is better and had more responsibility and had his team perform much better and that's somehow a negative for him? Ok.

No, giannis performed worse under a larger role where the failure was more on his shortcomings.

Having a harder responsibility doesnt suddenly mean its ok when you fail or hardens 2018 series against the warriors is the greatest of all time

the difference here is giannis "failing" had him successfulyl leading a -8 defense and nearly beating a team who play 60 win basketball without their superstar.

I don't remember how well davsi's defense held up against the warriors, but i've been told it was bleh.

[MyUniBroDavis]

So Giannis is better and had more responsibility and had his team perform much better and that's somehow a negative for him? Ok.

No, giannis performed worse under a larger role where the failure was more on his shortcomings.

Having a harder responsibility doesnt suddenly mean its ok when you fail or hardens 2018 series against the warriors is the greatest of all time

Which means you're punishing Giannis for being the superior player and raising his teams expectations....

More role responsibility doesnt mean superior lmfao that doesnt make sense

More responsibility means the teams success is more contingent on your performance and he didnt perform. He doesnt get brownie points for that

If AD was in a better situation and the team was more built around his strengths rather than relying on him the expectations would be higiher as well, basketball isnt as simple as adding players impact numbers together despite what some people seem to believe

[MyUniBroDavis]

So Giannis is better and had more responsibility and had his team perform much better and that's somehow a negative for him? Ok.

No, giannis performed worse under a larger role where the failure was more on his shortcomings.

Having a harder responsibility doesnt suddenly mean its ok when you fail or hardens 2018 series against the warriors is the greatest of all time

the difference here is giannis "failing" had him successfulyl leading a -8 defense and nearly beating a team who play 60 win basketball without their superstar.

I don't remember how well davsi's defense held up against the warriors, but i've been told it was bleh.

They had 3 good defensive games and 3 bad ones lol, you cant take averages in seties cuz they get skewed

[zimpy27]

Giannis is better in the full court, AD better in the half court

[LukaTheGOAT]

I think Giannis is clearly better than AD. Giannis can probably take almost any team to 45 or 50 wins mostly by himself because he's an elite defender and an unstoppable scorer during the regular season. He can create his own shot at will and he's a better passer and ballhandler and a more forceful athlete. With that said, his lack of skills maybe makes him more suited for a 2ndary role in offense, kinda like AD. I don't know that he'd def. be better in a secondary role. AD playing with LeBron is nigh unstoppable honestly. Just too rangy, too fluid, to quick a leaper, too much dexterity, too much body control, reflexes are too good. Midrange touch and face up game are borderline elite.

Yeah but that is kind of people's point. Giannis is the better RS floor-raiser. However, if Giannis is stopped by elite defenses then perhaps having him as a #1 option brings only so much championship equity and therefore Davis being a better off-ball player might be easier to fit into lineups and help more teams win championships.

You don't neccesarily need to be able to smash elite offences if you can anchor atg defenses, which giannis did last postseason and this rs.

For some reason that atg defense regressed to meh in the bubble, which is probably the biggest reason for their upset.

Okay maybe this might be unpopular, but I kind of feel like AD and GIannis are pretty close overall on defense. Like I feel as if AD can do many similar things on defense like Giannis. I don't necessarily believe Giannis' performance on defense is something that AD could not replicate given certain personnel.

[Rapcity_11]

No, giannis performed worse under a larger role where the failure was more on his shortcomings.

Having a harder responsibility doesnt suddenly mean its ok when you fail or hardens 2018 series against the warriors is the greatest of all time

Which means you're punishing Giannis for being the superior player and raising his teams expectations....

More role responsibility doesnt mean superior lmfao that doesnt make sense

More responsibility means the teams success is more contingent on your performance and he didnt perform. He doesnt get brownie points for that

If AD was in a better situation and the team was more built around his strengths rather than relying on him the expectations would be higiher as well, basketball isnt as simple as adding players impact numbers together despite what some people seem to believe

You don’t honestly believe that, do you?

If 2 guys have the exact same season, but one does it with a first team all-NBA teammate and the other does it with a lower-tier all-star, one of them had the more impressive season.

[feyki]

AD is better on both ends.

[MyUniBroDavis]

Which means you're punishing Giannis for being the superior player and raising his teams expectations....

More role responsibility doesnt mean superior lmfao that doesnt make sense

More responsibility means the teams success is more contingent on your performance and he didnt perform. He doesnt get brownie points for that

If AD was in a better situation and the team was more built around his strengths rather than relying on him the expectations would be higiher as well, basketball isnt as simple as adding players impact numbers together despite what some people seem to believe

You don’t honestly believe that, do you?

If 2 guys have the exact same season, but one does it with a first team all-NBA teammate and the other does it with a lower-tier all-star, one of them had the more impressive season.

Im sorry but people that try to simplify basketball into it just being players + players dont really get it at all

So youre saying the ONLY thing that matters in a team is talent and fit coaching and scheme doesnt matter at all?

Thats not how it works lmao. We are comparing them in their specific series not their season

Giannis was in a better situation to succeed and failed to do so in that series.

The fact that team success is more contingent on him is irrelevant. Harden against the 2018 warriors was garbagio, i dont particularly care if he was the offense because he failed as the offense.

Giannis took a large role in an offense catered to him and failed miserably.

Thats the difference

Its EASIER for giannis to succeed and have a higher impact on his team than it is for davis to. In their respective series, he didnt.

You dont get credit for being in an EASIER situation and failing.

Having more responsibility doesnt mean youre better. Harden has more responsibility in his offense than literally anyone ever it doesnt mean hes the greatest offensive player ever.

The offensive system ran through giannis more than the pels offense ran through davis.

That doesnt mean giannis had it harder when you take into account the players around them, the scheme, etc etc.

Giannis was put in a position to succeed and failed to do so, thats the bottom line.

His overall offensive output was largely pathetic that series.

Was he effecient? No, his TS was 51.9 for the series, and while you can argue it was from the one bad game, he had three games below 55TS and 3 between 55 and 60.

Was he good at creating offense? No, he averaged 5.5 assists and 4.2 turnovers a game.

Was he scoring alot? No, he averaged 22 points.

The typical argument to bring up would be somelike like AD wasnt much more effecient, but thats like comparing apples and oranges.

Giannis's effeciency is usually 64TS while ADs post cousins is 60TS

ADs isnt lower just because hes a worse player or anything, its worse because his relative role in the offense doesnt give him as good shots. Theyll call plays for AD to come off a screen for an open midrange jumper, they arent doing that for giannis for obvious reasons.

Giannis impact will mostly come from beinf a hyper effecient scorer. Why?

Well, he in 2019 was hesitent to score within the flow of the offense, in a bad position hed pass it out and reset the offensive possession with low shotclocks a few times a game

He was bleh in kickout situations, often didnt make the right pass and would find it late at the end of the window so the guy isnt that open

But all of that would be made up for by being absurdly effecient.

If you take that away hes someone that drives in, that isnt effecient and isnt good at kicking it out. The fact that he gets defensive attention doesnt matter if he isnt able to make the right pass

For all the problems giannis has, offensive its made up for by how absurdly effecient his scoring is. If you take that away, what do you have?

The thing about TS is it probably overstates the value of free throws. If we are trying to show effeciency, it makes more sense to say points per possession.

game 1, giannis took 26 possessions to score 24 points
game 2, 26 to score 30
Game 3, 19 to score 12
Game 4, 22 to score 25
Game 5, 24 to score 24
Game 6, 24 to score 21

0.9655ppp
Take out the lowest game
1.016ppp

Davis in comparison
Game 1, 22 to score 21
Game 2, 24 to score 25
Game 3, 28 to score 33
Game 4, 27 to score 26
Game 5, 30 to score 34

1.061ppp
Take out the lowest game
1.082ppp

So davis was definately more effecient overall, by a pretty big margin.

Is there a gap in their scoring load?
Davis hit 27.8 a game, giannis hit 22.7

So whats the main argument here?

We are basing it on their performance. Not their team performance

If you want to somehow explain how giannis was the reason the teams offense wasnt horrible you have to explain why.

Its not enough to say "well he did bad but his team was good so it was probably because of him"

Does giannis have non box score factors helping him? No, as we established before that isnt the case. He has alot of flaws that dont show up including stagnating the offense when he gets stuck on drives in the half court

The main thing to offset this is he draws more attention on drives and creates more, but in general and especially in the raptors series he sucked at kicking it out to the right guy and would often do it late.

Its honestly annoying when people try to explain how well a player performs in a SERIES by just extrapolating team performance, its lazy


Its a 6 game series, we SAW what happened. If Giannis played bad and the team played well you cant retroactively change what happened and say he did fine.

We know where the main strengths and impacts of his offense are, namely, hyper effeciency and rim gravity leading to kickouts.

We also know what his weaknesses are and the things that hold him back.

We saw the way he played and it wasnt great. Just because his team was okay doesnt suddenly mean he played fine and people are overexaggerating. It means the team was okay. And giannis played the way he played

If your gonna say something like "the team played fine so giannis automatically did well" then explain WHY.

Giannis in pretty much every regard was worse than usual. His weaknesses didnt go away and the strengths he had (effeciency + gravitykickouts) were both average at best in that series.

So explain what happened that made him a positively impactful player

[Rapcity_11]

More role responsibility doesnt mean superior lmfao that doesnt make sense

More responsibility means the teams success is more contingent on your performance and he didnt perform. He doesnt get brownie points for that

If AD was in a better situation and the team was more built around his strengths rather than relying on him the expectations would be higiher as well, basketball isnt as simple as adding players impact numbers together despite what some people seem to believe

You don’t honestly believe that, do you?

If 2 guys have the exact same season, but one does it with a first team all-NBA teammate and the other does it with a lower-tier all-star, one of them had the more impressive season.

Im sorry but people that try to simplify basketball into it just being players + players dont really get it at all

So youre saying the ONLY thing that matters in a team is talent and fit coaching and scheme doesnt matter at all?

Thats not how it works lmao. We are comparing them in their specific series not their season

Giannis was in a better situation to succeed and failed to do so in that series.

The fact that team success is more contingent on him is irrelevant. Harden against the 2018 warriors was garbagio, i dont particularly care if he was the offense because he failed as the offense.

Giannis took a large role in an offense catered to him and failed miserably.

Thats the difference

Its EASIER for giannis to succeed and have a higher impact on his team than it is for davis to. In their respective series, he didnt.

You dont get credit for being in an EASIER situation and failing.

So Anthony Davis wasn't good enough to take on a similar load to Giannis/Harden, but his similar statistical output (in a non-competitive series) is supposed to rate him as the better player? Nah.

[HeartBreakKid]

If Giannis played with a playmaker and was put in a system that allowed him to get some easy buckets I don't see how he would be much less effective than Davis on offense. Yes, Davis can shoot - but shooting isn't literally the only thing that matters in the half court.

Put Davis in Milwaukee and I don't see him doing that well.

[MyUniBroDavis]

You don’t honestly believe that, do you?

If 2 guys have the exact same season, but one does it with a first team all-NBA teammate and the other does it with a lower-tier all-star, one of them had the more impressive season.

Im sorry but people that try to simplify basketball into it just being players + players dont really get it at all

So youre saying the ONLY thing that matters in a team is talent and fit coaching and scheme doesnt matter at all?

Thats not how it works lmao. We are comparing them in their specific series not their season

Giannis was in a better situation to succeed and failed to do so in that series.

The fact that team success is more contingent on him is irrelevant. Harden against the 2018 warriors was garbagio, i dont particularly care if he was the offense because he failed as the offense.

Giannis took a large role in an offense catered to him and failed miserably.

Thats the difference

Its EASIER for giannis to succeed and have a higher impact on his team than it is for davis to. In their respective series, he didnt.

You dont get credit for being in an EASIER situation and failing.

So Anthony Davis wasn't good enough to take on a similar load to Giannis/Harden, but his similar statistical output (in a non-competitive series) is supposed to rate him as the better player? Nah.

Ok then so is 2018 harden better than peak jordan?

Harden objectively takes more of a load in his offense even though they have similar statistical output. Literally ever single possession is a harden iso and working off of that.

No, of course not, because thats not how basketball works

Giannis is in a better situation for his talents and offensively he FAILED. The fact that you dont understand that fit, coaching, and role are important things is ridiculous. Youre literally just too lazy to analyze whats happening in the games and each players attributes and just saying "well yeah um the bucks were better so ok Ecks dee"

No, thats not how it works. Giannis failed in what he was supposed to do, the two drivers of what makes him good on offense were accomplished at a below average or average rate.

The things that hold him back on offense were on full display more so than ever

The fact that the bucks were able to score doesnt change that giannis himself did not perform well.

You cant argue about how two players played in a series without analyzing hiw they played in the damn series lmfao. You havent said anything that would make it seem like you didnr watch the game on an espn play by play tracker

[Baski]

I think Giannis is clearly better than AD. Giannis can probably take almost any team to 45 or 50 wins mostly by himself because he's an elite defender and an unstoppable scorer during the regular season. He can create his own shot at will and he's a better passer and ballhandler and a more forceful athlete. With that said, his lack of skills maybe makes him more suited for a 2ndary role in offense, kinda like AD. I don't know that he'd def. be better in a secondary role. AD playing with LeBron is nigh unstoppable honestly. Just too rangy, too fluid, to quick a leaper, too much dexterity, too much body control, reflexes are too good. Midrange touch and face up game are borderline elite.

Yeah but that is kind of people's point. Giannis is the better RS floor-raiser. However, if Giannis is stopped by elite defenses then perhaps having him as a #1 option brings only so much championship equity and therefore Davis being a better off-ball player might be easier to fit into lineups and help more teams win championships.

The problem I have with this is you and others are comparing the 2 players under different contexts. It's easy to say that all you need is a competent playmaker next to Davis. But as we've seen with Garnett, Lebron, Jordan, Robinson, Davis himself, and a shitton of other players' careers, it's hard as **** to actually get one for your superstar in their prime, and you're not guaranteed to land on the Celtics or Spurs. And this is the value of guys like Giannis who can take the ball and make stuff happen. While you're praying for the basketball gods to send a competent playmaker your way, you'd at least be consistently making the POs.
Would Giannis not benefit as much from a competent playmaker and non-Bud coach as much as Davis would? If you took out primary playmaking from Giannis' responsibilities and just told him to focus on rim running, catching lobs, posting up, crashing the boards and playing elite defense, would he look that much worse than Davis? His primacy on offense should not be seen as a handicap when comparing him to someone who can't do it at all.

[GSP]

If Giannis played with a playmaker and was put in a system that allowed him to get some easy buckets I don't see how he would be much less effective than Davis on offense. Yes, Davis can shoot - but shooting isn't literally the only thing that matters in the half court.

Put Davis in Milwaukee and I don't see him doing that well.

Milwaukee is built around Giannis and his inability to shoot or really be a threat past 10ft at the rim. He needs 4 out to be effective on offense b/c of his limitations. Ad is far more versatile, can play pick and roll or pop with any guard, can space the floor himself, handle at the post and his dribble drive game isnt predictable like Giannis.

In the regular season Bucks wouldnt be as dominant with Ad compared to Giannis but in the playoffs Miami isnt taken Ad out of the game by packing the paint and building a wall to thwart his transition game. Giannis sucks in the halfcourt and Khris Middleton and Brook Lopez were both more reliable options for Milwaukee. That would not be the case with Ad whos a far better halfcourt player

Not sure Giannis is even better defensively. As much as his offense got exposed on defense he was having alot of problems with Miamis offense and shooting. Ad is far more versatile and mobile on the perimeter.

Ad is just flatout better on both ends when the games slow down in the halfcourt in the playoffs. Giannis without transition is basically a more brutish and athletic Paskal Siakam in the halfcourt. Ad is a far superior playoff performer and he was even before this season