2019-2020 Jokic Thread

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Re: 2019-2020 Jokic Thread 

Post#61 » by MyUniBroDavis » Thu Sep 17, 2020 12:53 am

freethedevil wrote:
Doctor MJ wrote:
Goudelock wrote:
Almost Magic Johnson-esque in how he completely controlled the game without making a ton of shots. Jokic had 22 boards and somehow it felt like he had even more. His defense didn't seem to bad either in that fourth quarter, aside from that late rotation that led to a Harrell layup and foul.


What's cool is that Jokic is clearly emerging as one of these all-time superpower guys who can do things no one else can do.

When I watch Jokic's style, I think Walton.
When I watch Jokic's active intelligence on the court, I think Bird.
When I watch Jokic on the pick and roll, it's like watching the SSOL Suns if Amar'e was the team's playmaker instead of Nash.

Put it all together, Magic might be as close of a comparison as we have.

do the 2020 nuggets feel anything like the 15 warriors?


Yall are hyping up this nuggets offense so much lmao
oof
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Re: 2019-2020 Jokic Thread 

Post#62 » by Doctor MJ » Thu Sep 17, 2020 1:46 am

GSP wrote:
Doctor MJ wrote:Fun thought: Jokic's Nuggets have now won more series than Melo's Nuggets.


What happens with the jersey retiring? Its really odd they both wear 15. Is Melos ever gonna get retired?


Wow, I hadn't realized that. I feel like eventually the number will jointly be retired for both of them after Jokic retires. Not saying they'll necessarily do both at the same time. If Jokic has a drastically greater Nugget career they may do him first, and then later include Melo in some way.

I have to say though, for me personally, if Jokic does far more than Melo and ends his time in Denver in a classy way, then I don't think Melo will deserve to have his jersey retired. It's not about him not being good enough but about the fact that he forced his way out - though granted, the better you are, the worse you can behave and still get such honors.
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Re: 2019-2020 Jokic Thread 

Post#63 » by Doctor MJ » Thu Sep 17, 2020 1:49 am

freethedevil wrote:
Doctor MJ wrote:
Goudelock wrote:
Almost Magic Johnson-esque in how he completely controlled the game without making a ton of shots. Jokic had 22 boards and somehow it felt like he had even more. His defense didn't seem to bad either in that fourth quarter, aside from that late rotation that led to a Harrell layup and foul.


What's cool is that Jokic is clearly emerging as one of these all-time superpower guys who can do things no one else can do.

When I watch Jokic's style, I think Walton.
When I watch Jokic's active intelligence on the court, I think Bird.
When I watch Jokic on the pick and roll, it's like watching the SSOL Suns if Amar'e was the team's playmaker instead of Nash.

Put it all together, Magic might be as close of a comparison as we have.

do the 2020 nuggets feel anything like the 15 warriors?


They feel like the 1977 Blazers to me. Not just the aesthetics but the group confidence growing as they get deeper into their run. As I say that though, I don't think there's any doubt that the way that Walton/Jokic empower their teammates helps drive that confidence.
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Re: 2019-2020 Jokic Thread 

Post#64 » by Alatan » Thu Sep 17, 2020 7:16 am

Peregrine01 wrote:If there was one thing that seemed missing from Jokic is his aggressiveness which I think stems from an underestimation of his own abilities. I hope these playoffs have made him realize that he's absolutely one of the best players in the game.


This always bothers me with Jokic. He is best when he is agressive but ofthen he overthinks the game and passes on good oportunities trying to find a better one. Sometimes i think he is afraid to take the shot but it might just be him overthinking things.
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Re: 2019-2020 Jokic Thread 

Post#65 » by Alatan » Thu Sep 17, 2020 7:21 am

Doctor MJ wrote:
freethedevil wrote:
Doctor MJ wrote:
What's cool is that Jokic is clearly emerging as one of these all-time superpower guys who can do things no one else can do.

When I watch Jokic's style, I think Walton.
When I watch Jokic's active intelligence on the court, I think Bird.
When I watch Jokic on the pick and roll, it's like watching the SSOL Suns if Amar'e was the team's playmaker instead of Nash.

Put it all together, Magic might be as close of a comparison as we have.

do the 2020 nuggets feel anything like the 15 warriors?


They feel like the 1977 Blazers to me. Not just the aesthetics but the group confidence growing as they get deeper into their run. As I say that though, I don't think there's any doubt that the way that Walton/Jokic empower their teammates helps drive that confidence.


Havent watched Walton live but i have seen some of his recorded games. The man was a beast. I dont know was he as creative as a passer as Jokic but he sure was close. The thing is he was one of the best defenders back then if im not mistaken. An athletic Jokic who is a top tier defender. SCARY!

Such a shame his career ended early because of injuries.
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Re: 2019-2020 Jokic Thread 

Post#66 » by 70sFan » Thu Sep 17, 2020 7:33 am

Doctor MJ wrote:
freethedevil wrote:
Doctor MJ wrote:
What's cool is that Jokic is clearly emerging as one of these all-time superpower guys who can do things no one else can do.

When I watch Jokic's style, I think Walton.
When I watch Jokic's active intelligence on the court, I think Bird.
When I watch Jokic on the pick and roll, it's like watching the SSOL Suns if Amar'e was the team's playmaker instead of Nash.

Put it all together, Magic might be as close of a comparison as we have.

do the 2020 nuggets feel anything like the 15 warriors?


They feel like the 1977 Blazers to me. Not just the aesthetics but the group confidence growing as they get deeper into their run. As I say that though, I don't think there's any doubt that the way that Walton/Jokic empower their teammates helps drive that confidence.

I agree, Nuggets offense reminds me 1977 Blazers more than anything else we've seen in this decade and it's mostly because Jokic is one of very few players who approached Walton's creativity and ability to run offense.

Imagine Jokic with Walton's defense :o
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Re: 2019-2020 Jokic Thread 

Post#67 » by GSP » Thu Sep 17, 2020 8:01 am

70sFan wrote:
Doctor MJ wrote:
freethedevil wrote:do the 2020 nuggets feel anything like the 15 warriors?


They feel like the 1977 Blazers to me. Not just the aesthetics but the group confidence growing as they get deeper into their run. As I say that though, I don't think there's any doubt that the way that Walton/Jokic empower their teammates helps drive that confidence.

I agree, Nuggets offense reminds me 1977 Blazers more than anything else we've seen in this decade and it's mostly because Jokic is one of very few players who approached Walton's creativity and ability to run offense.

Imagine Jokic with Walton's defense :o


Jokic is more creative than Walton was and his ability to run an offense is far better considering he can initiate plays and passes off the bounce and moving with the ball. Much better pick and roll play too not just on the roll but as the main ballhandler. Walton was more stationary and his passing while great for a big was more of a cog in Ramsay system.

Theres some similarities in how they screen and how active all the players are but there were many plays where Walton didnt even touch the ball and it was other willing passers giving it up and running plays. They had more connected ball movement through a diverse attack. Not that Denver has poor passers but almost everything runs through Jokic and his passing. He runs the entire offense and if not its the 2 man game with Jamal Murry. Players like Hollins, Gross, Davis, Lucas etc. all had big roles in the passing for the Blazers offense maybe not quite as bit as Walton but not far behind. Its not the same as with Denver
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Re: 2019-2020 Jokic Thread 

Post#68 » by 70sFan » Thu Sep 17, 2020 8:10 am

Well, a lot of things you mentioned are era related, not based on Walton's limitations. 1970s was an era when coaches put a lot of emphasis on ball movenent, far more than ever since. Walton was less ball dominant than Jokic, but it's not because he couldn't dominate the ball at similar level.

About passing - again, I probably disagree. Walton didn't run as much P&Rs because nobody did back then. Would you call Jokic a better P&R player than Oscar as well?
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Re: 2019-2020 Jokic Thread 

Post#69 » by Doctor MJ » Thu Sep 17, 2020 2:25 pm

Alatan wrote:
Doctor MJ wrote:
freethedevil wrote:do the 2020 nuggets feel anything like the 15 warriors?


They feel like the 1977 Blazers to me. Not just the aesthetics but the group confidence growing as they get deeper into their run. As I say that though, I don't think there's any doubt that the way that Walton/Jokic empower their teammates helps drive that confidence.


Havent watched Walton live but i have seen some of his recorded games. The man was a beast. I dont know was he as creative as a passer as Jokic but he sure was close. The thing is he was one of the best defenders back then if im not mistaken. An athletic Jokic who is a top tier defender. SCARY!

Such a shame his career ended early because of injuries.


Nope, not as creative as Jokic, but the most creative big man we'd ever seen before Jokic. And yeah, he was the best defensive player in the game too on a per minute basis. Absolute monster. If only he could stay healthy.
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Re: 2019-2020 Jokic Thread 

Post#70 » by Clyde Frazier » Thu Sep 17, 2020 2:30 pm

freethedevil wrote:Imagine not making this already, smh.


That's because you don't have to imagine :)

viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1940559&hilit=jokic+jokic+thread

Will merge these in a few.
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Re: 2019-2020 Jokic Thread 

Post#71 » by Doctor MJ » Thu Sep 17, 2020 2:36 pm

GSP wrote:
70sFan wrote:
Doctor MJ wrote:
They feel like the 1977 Blazers to me. Not just the aesthetics but the group confidence growing as they get deeper into their run. As I say that though, I don't think there's any doubt that the way that Walton/Jokic empower their teammates helps drive that confidence.

I agree, Nuggets offense reminds me 1977 Blazers more than anything else we've seen in this decade and it's mostly because Jokic is one of very few players who approached Walton's creativity and ability to run offense.

Imagine Jokic with Walton's defense :o


Jokic is more creative than Walton was and his ability to run an offense is far better considering he can initiate plays and passes off the bounce and moving with the ball. Much better pick and roll play too not just on the roll but as the main ballhandler. Walton was more stationary and his passing while great for a big was more of a cog in Ramsay system.

Theres some similarities in how they screen and how active all the players are but there were many plays where Walton didnt even touch the ball and it was other willing passers giving it up and running plays. They had more connected ball movement through a diverse attack. Not that Denver has poor passers but almost everything runs through Jokic and his passing. He runs the entire offense and if not its the 2 man game with Jamal Murry. Players like Hollins, Gross, Davis, Lucas etc. all had big roles in the passing for the Blazers offense maybe not quite as bit as Walton but not far behind. Its not the same as with Denver


Absolutely agree on the Jokic comparison, but a note on Walton being a "cog":

Ramsay didn't coach this system before he came to Portland and he came to Portland specifically interested in what he could develop around Walton. So, full credit to Ramsay who after 1977 was considered the best working coach in basketball, but Walton was a unique piece that caused the system to be put in place, much like Jokic in Denver.

But also: This type of offense with the pivot playmaker and the cutting has a very deep history in the game (way older than the NBA). Quite honestly, in another universe, the entire NBA could be playing with some variation of it and the most sought after prospects would be playmaking bigs. We see them as super-rare, because on the whole teams don't groom their bigs to play like this, and thus when it happens, it's because the big in question is an off-the-charts prospect on this front. But I think it's clear that once guys get used to proactively making these cuts, you don't actually need a genius big man passer to make it work pretty well, you just need a pretty good big man passer. It's worth noting that Walton's Blazers didn't see their offense fall apart without Walton so much as their defense, and that's because the whole team learned to play in this way and they made sure to have other bigs who could at least make some passes. That kind of resilience tells you that this system could work lots of places, but there's a lot of inertia to get passed on the front end where having a genius passer makes it a lot easier for the other players to want to learn to play this way.
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Re: 2019-2020 Jokic Thread 

Post#72 » by homecourtloss » Thu Sep 17, 2020 2:41 pm

Doctor MJ wrote:
Peregrine01 wrote:Jokic might go down as one of the greatest passers of all-time - up there with Nash, Magic and Bird. Unreal how he sees the opening before the guy he passes to even realizes it.

Also very impressed with his defense. He was a lot more active in the last few games and while he lacks mobility and athleticism, those same instincts that make him a great passer should also make him a pretty good defender. He broke up a ton of plays last night.


What struck me against the Clippers was how all-encompassing his BBIQ advantage is. It's not just the passing, he just sees opportunities to outsmart the opponents and trick the refs every moment he's out there as if he's the savvy old veteran. It's one thing to process the game faster than others, but veterans are supposed to get smarter and smarter as they learn from being burnt by other smarter veterans and learning what the possible ripostes are when you recognize what's happening. With Jokic it's like I'm constantly seeing "Oh, I could just do this" moments that don't seem based on having learned from other people.


When he has the ball and looks to play make while either back to the basket or faced up, he lets plays develop with the focal point on him, and then chooses either to take the first opening or, most impressively, waits to see a secondary action open up based off of initial movement and what the opponent THOUGHT he was going to do. This seems to lead to open layups or wide open shots. You often saw this with Bird from similar offensive stances. Not to overuse the cliche, but he’s like a chess grandmaster who sees moves ahead that normal people never would.
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Re: 2019-2020 Jokic Thread 

Post#73 » by Doctor MJ » Thu Sep 17, 2020 2:46 pm

homecourtloss wrote:
Doctor MJ wrote:
Peregrine01 wrote:Jokic might go down as one of the greatest passers of all-time - up there with Nash, Magic and Bird. Unreal how he sees the opening before the guy he passes to even realizes it.

Also very impressed with his defense. He was a lot more active in the last few games and while he lacks mobility and athleticism, those same instincts that make him a great passer should also make him a pretty good defender. He broke up a ton of plays last night.


What struck me against the Clippers was how all-encompassing his BBIQ advantage is. It's not just the passing, he just sees opportunities to outsmart the opponents and trick the refs every moment he's out there as if he's the savvy old veteran. It's one thing to process the game faster than others, but veterans are supposed to get smarter and smarter as they learn from being burnt by other smarter veterans and learning what the possible ripostes are when you recognize what's happening. With Jokic it's like I'm constantly seeing "Oh, I could just do this" moments that don't seem based on having learned from other people.


When he has the ball and looks to play make while either back to the basket or faced up, he lets plays develop with the focal point on him, and then chooses either to take the first opening or, most impressively, waits to see a secondary action open up based off of initial movement and what the opponent THOUGHT he was going to do. This seems to lead to open layups or wide open shots. You often saw this with Bird from similar offensive stances. Not to overuse the cliche, but he’s like a chess grandmaster who sees moves ahead that normal people never would.


...and like Bird, sees those moves in a flash of insight before others can react.
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Re: 2019-2020 Jokic Thread 

Post#74 » by 70sFan » Thu Sep 17, 2020 3:09 pm

Jokic is one of these extremely rare players who could see two or three moves ahead of opponnents. Very few players in NBA history had that gift - Magic, Bird, Nash, maybe Oscar (I haven't seen enough of him in his prime). I also see that in Duncan and Russell on the other side of the floor. Who would you also mention here?

Even all-time great passers like LeBron, Paul or Stockton didn't have that gift.
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Re: 2019-2020 Jokic Thread 

Post#75 » by Ryoga Hibiki » Thu Sep 17, 2020 3:12 pm

70sFan wrote:Jokic is one of these extremely rare players who could see two or three moves ahead of opponnents. Very few players in NBA history had that gift - Magic, Bird, Nash, maybe Oscar (I haven't seen enough of him in his prime). I also see that in Duncan and Russell on the other side of the floor. Who would you also mention here?

Even all-time great passers like LeBron, Paul or Stockton didn't have that gift.

I would say Garnett even more than Duncan, and definitely LeBron.
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Re: 2019-2020 Jokic Thread 

Post#76 » by 70sFan » Thu Sep 17, 2020 3:29 pm

Ryoga Hibiki wrote:
70sFan wrote:Jokic is one of these extremely rare players who could see two or three moves ahead of opponnents. Very few players in NBA history had that gift - Magic, Bird, Nash, maybe Oscar (I haven't seen enough of him in his prime). I also see that in Duncan and Russell on the other side of the floor. Who would you also mention here?

Even all-time great passers like LeBron, Paul or Stockton didn't have that gift.

I would say Garnett even more than Duncan, and definitely LeBron.

Garnett is a good choice on defense.

LeBron's case is more about his unreal ability to translate scouting report to the action on the floor. He knows all about his teammates and opponents, so because of his experience he usually takes the best decision available. I don't think he's on the level of players I mentioned in terms of creativeness and ability to manipulate opponents with reading possession two or three steps ahead.
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Re: 2019-2020 Jokic Thread 

Post#77 » by Doctor MJ » Thu Sep 17, 2020 4:36 pm

70sFan wrote:Jokic is one of these extremely rare players who could see two or three moves ahead of opponnents. Very few players in NBA history had that gift - Magic, Bird, Nash, maybe Oscar (I haven't seen enough of him in his prime). I also see that in Duncan and Russell on the other side of the floor. Who would you also mention here?

Even all-time great passers like LeBron, Paul or Stockton didn't have that gift.


I see Russell, Oscar, and West all this way, albeit with different directions of focus.

I also think Connie Hawkins was like this too, though there's less evidence of this in the NBA, and we do know that Connie struggled with following his coaches instructions, so he was like a guy who only learned to play based on instinct from what I can see. But in terms of "the smartest guy on the blacktop", I think that was him.

I think Jason Kidd is like this too, though I always wonder if he could have found a way to be more effective in the half court despite his lack of scoring attack.

Stockton of course deserves a mention.

Going into the deep past, Bob Davies, Hank Luisetti, and Nat Holman and the best minds on the Rens and Globetrotters seem like the best candidates.
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Re: 2019-2020 Jokic Thread 

Post#78 » by Doctor MJ » Thu Sep 17, 2020 4:37 pm

Ryoga Hibiki wrote:
70sFan wrote:Jokic is one of these extremely rare players who could see two or three moves ahead of opponnents. Very few players in NBA history had that gift - Magic, Bird, Nash, maybe Oscar (I haven't seen enough of him in his prime). I also see that in Duncan and Russell on the other side of the floor. Who would you also mention here?

Even all-time great passers like LeBron, Paul or Stockton didn't have that gift.

I would say Garnett even more than Duncan, and definitely LeBron.


Co-signed on Garnett definitely.

LeBron's all-around basketball intelligence, including his memory, is top tier, but I do always feel like his in-the-moment tendencies are a step slow compared to a Bird or Magic...or Jokic.
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Re: 2019-2020 Jokic Thread 

Post#79 » by Ryoga Hibiki » Thu Sep 17, 2020 4:51 pm

Doctor MJ wrote:
Ryoga Hibiki wrote:
70sFan wrote:Jokic is one of these extremely rare players who could see two or three moves ahead of opponnents. Very few players in NBA history had that gift - Magic, Bird, Nash, maybe Oscar (I haven't seen enough of him in his prime). I also see that in Duncan and Russell on the other side of the floor. Who would you also mention here?

Even all-time great passers like LeBron, Paul or Stockton didn't have that gift.

I would say Garnett even more than Duncan, and definitely LeBron.


Co-signed on Garnett definitely.

LeBron's all-around basketball intelligence, including his memory, is top tier, but I do always feel like his in-the-moment tendencies are a step slow compared to a Bird or Magic...or Jokic.

mmm, can we add Manu to this list?
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Re: 2019-2020 Jokic Thread 

Post#80 » by 70sFan » Thu Sep 17, 2020 7:07 pm

Doctor MJ wrote:
70sFan wrote:Jokic is one of these extremely rare players who could see two or three moves ahead of opponnents. Very few players in NBA history had that gift - Magic, Bird, Nash, maybe Oscar (I haven't seen enough of him in his prime). I also see that in Duncan and Russell on the other side of the floor. Who would you also mention here?

Even all-time great passers like LeBron, Paul or Stockton didn't have that gift.


I see Russell, Oscar, and West all this way, albeit with different directions of focus.

I also think Connie Hawkins was like this too, though there's less evidence of this in the NBA, and we do know that Connie struggled with following his coaches instructions, so he was like a guy who only learned to play based on instinct from what I can see. But in terms of "the smartest guy on the blacktop", I think that was him.

I think Jason Kidd is like this too, though I always wonder if he could have found a way to be more effective in the half court despite his lack of scoring attack.

Stockton of course deserves a mention.

Going into the deep past, Bob Davies, Hank Luisetti, and Nat Holman and the best minds on the Rens and Globetrotters seem like the best candidates.

Until recently, I didn't know that you are that high on Connie Hawkins. To be honest, I don't know that much about him and although I've seen a few of his games - most of them were from his Lakers years (so way past prime). Could you tell me more about him and what makes him so special?

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