Let's start our new project. Here is the link to the project thread:
viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1998780
Pick the first team from 2010/11 to 2014/15 season. Explain all your choices at least in short description.
Reminder of the rules:
1. Include both RS and playoffs (it's not RS award like in real life).
2. You can pick only one season per player - for example, you can't use 2016 and 2018 James in different teams.
3. Votes will be counted per player, not per version of player. I think that otherwise, we'll have players with multiple great seaosns (like James or Kareem for example) unfairly downgraded.
4. We vote in a G/G/F/F/C system.
If you want to participate, just let me know. I'm trying to get consistent list of voters.
EDIT:
Official 2011-15 All-NBA First Team
G: 2014/15 Stephen Curry G: 2010/11 Dwyane Wade F: 2012/13 LeBron James F: 2010/11 Dirk Nowitzki C: 2010/11 Dwight Howard
Spoiler:
Odinn21 wrote:I'm in.
Doctor MJ wrote:Sounds fun. I'm in.
Dutchball97 wrote:I'm in.
PistolPeteJR wrote:I'm in lol.
Ryoga Hibiki wrote:yes
Orin wrote:I would love to participate
ardee wrote:Sure
Heej wrote:Interesting I'm in
clearlynotjesse wrote:I wanna play
E-Balla wrote:I'm down but my participation won't be super consistent like usual, sorry for that.
Eddy_JukeZ wrote:I'm in.
SinceGatlingWasARookie wrote:I can participate, but not reliably
G: 2014/15 Stephen Curry G: 2010/11 Dwyane Wade F: 2012/13 LeBron James F: 2010/11 Dirk Nowitzki C: 2010/11 Dwight Howard
G: 2014/15 Stephen Curry
I think it's not as clear choice as some may think. It's the first Curry season as a legit superstar - he won his first MVP, he led Warriors to the title and anchored elite +6.0 offense (second in the league). It was his breakout year and the beginning of an era high volume three point guards. He averaged 24/8 with excellent efficiency and he maintained this production in postseason (with higher volume) and Warriors offense stayed on high level.
I have some concerns about him in the first team, but I decided to pick him here because of combination of his impact, talent and availability.
G: 2010/11 Dwyane Wade
One of the most underrated seasons of the last decade, mainly due to Heat collapse in the finals. Despite less than ideal fit with LeBron and terrible depth, Miami still played at very respectable +4.5 offense (+4.7 in playoffs) and -3.7 defense (-3.0 in playoffs) and it's arguable that it's Wade, not James, that was their best player throughout the season. Wade was all-around superstar then - his defense was as good as ever and he scored at very respectable level despite team not suiting his strengths (he was amazing slasher without spacing).In the finals, he was arguably the best player despite playing next to LeBron and against peak Dirk.
I think he's the best candidate among all available.
F: 2012/13 LeBron James
One of the best players ever in arguably his best season ever. I don't think I have to explain my decision here. I thought about 2012 James over 2013 (better defensively and arguably better postseason run), but I decided to pick 2013 version because of the best RS available (and overall best RS in James career).
F: 2010/11 Dirk Nowitzki
One of the best isolation scorers in NBA history at his absolute peak. Dirk was the definition of unguardable in that season - guard him with bigman and he'd cook him; guard him with smaller defender and he'd abuse him in the post. He had one of the most impressive postseason runs ever (he led an +8.1 offense in possteason). On top of that, he wasn't defensive liability yet at this point.
I view his offense as far more resiliant that any other available candidate at that spot.
C: 2010/11 Dwight Howard
I have a lot of concerns with Dwight, but I can't deny that his peak was spectacular. He was the best defensive player in the league at that time, that could also very efficient 23 ppg from putbacks, lob finishes and some post ups. He's also one of the best rebounders ever. Magic were elite defensively despite having mediocre defenders around him.
He's not very smart offensive player, but he could be used in very effective role with proper system.
Center: Tim Duncan, 2012/13 - My first idea for this spot was to see if Dirk played enough center to qualify but he played almost exclusively as a forward in 2010/11. Then my second option was Dwight but while he had a great regular season in 2010/11, he didn't make it past the first round. Then I thought why not Duncan? He was the only center to play a pivotal role on any finals team in this 5 year period and it's not like he was washed at this point. I went with 2012/13 over 2013/14 because he was an All-Star, All-NBA 1st team, All-Defensive 2nd team and 7th in MVP voting.
Forward: LeBron James, 2012/13 - No need to go in depth on this one. One of the best regular seasons ever followed by a great post-season run on the way to a ring.
Forward: Dirk Nowitzki, 2010/11 - I went back and forth between Dirk and KD for quite a while. KD's regular season in 2013/14 was only rivaled by LeBron's best seasons over this 5 year stretch but his play-off performance wasn't up to that level. So much so that he was outplayed by Westbrook, who didn't look close to him in the regular season. Dirk had a very good but quiet regular season in 2010/11 and even his play-off run doesn't particularly pop out statistically. The Lakers had won the last 2 titles and the Mavs swept them in the 2nd round. Then they beat an OKC team that would make the finals the year after in 5 and beat the insanely stacked Heatles in 6. Being the leading man of a team achieving legendary results beats out advanced stats in this case.
Guard: Stephen Curry, 2014/15 - Most dominant performance by a guard in this timespan by a mile.
Guard: Dwyane Wade, 2010/11 - The second guard spot was by far the most competitve choice I had to make here. CP3 and Harden had better regular seasons in 2014/15 than Wade had in 2010/11 and in terms of play-off performance they were all very close but Wade had more impact in the post-season due to a deeper run. I also considered Derrick Rose but while not far behind, I wouldn't be able to justify picking him over any of Wade, CP3 or Harden.
I thought about Duncan, but decided to pick Howard who played much more minutes and had bigger role on his team. I think that Timmy is an excellent choice though, especially with the way he played in playoffs.
Don't think I registered in advance but here is my vote.
C: 2011 Dwight Howard F: 2012 LeBron James F: 2014 Kevin Durant G: 2015 Stephen Curry G: 2015 Chris Paul
LeBron, Curry and Howard are locks to me. I know Dwight is quite unpopular after leaving Orlando but there is literally no other center whose peak comes close to his in this period. 23/14 on 62% TS with DPOY level defense is elite all time stuff. Bogut and Bynum were supposed to be up and coming challengers but both were done after their injuries. Howard's decline and the lack of a successor is the reason why the All NBA 1st team Cs until Davis (Duncan/Noah/Gasol/DeAndre) were so weak in historical terms. 2015 Davis was pretty good but he was still primarily a power forward at this point.
15 Paul vs 11 Wade and 14 Durant vs 11 Dirk is closer. I rank peak Wade above Paul but this is only Wade's 4th best season. He usually has a defensive advantage over other guards because of his shot blocking but Paul is one of the best defensive point guards. Wade played great in the Finals but his ECF performance was pretty bad (18.8 points, 2.2 assists, 4.0 turnovers, 49.8% TS). 2015 is one of Paul's healthier seasons and he looks better than Wade in basically any metric and is a better fit next to LeBron/Bosh too. I imagine 11 Dirk over 14 Durant is probably a unanimous decision because of the title but the Finals is more of a LeBron choke than Dirk playing out of his mind like he did in the WCF. Durant didn't actually play that bad in his WCF loss and the 2014 Spurs was a far more dangerous team than the 2011 Heat despite the lack of star power.
I'm going to let the discussion unfold before casting my final vote, but here are the players I'm considering :
Guards :
Chris Paul 14/15, Dwyane Wade 11, Stephen Curry 15. Chris might actually be the best player of the three, but he had some questionable moments in both postseasons (losing against Houston after leading 3-1 was pretty bad). I think they had comparable RS, but Wade was the better playoff performer.
Forwards :
Lebron James 13, Dirk Nowitzki 11, Durant 14. Lebron is a lock here so really I'm just thinking between Durant and Dirk. It's hard to argue against Dirk's amazing run in the PS, but this is probably Durant's best season.
Center :
Duncan 13, Dwight 11. Dwight is probably the better player in a vacuum, but I'm concerned about his off-court attitude. Also, Duncan was simply amazing throughout the playoffs.
TheGr81 wrote:I think he [Wilt] had similar athleticism, skill level and basketball IQ as Javale McGee
G: 2014/15 Stephen Curry G: 2010/11 Dwyane Wade F: 2012/13 LeBron James F: 2010/11 Dirk Nowitzki C: 2010/11 Dwight Howard
G: 2014/15 Stephen Curry
I think it's not as clear choice as some may think. It's the first Curry season as a legit superstar - he won his first MVP, he led Warriors to the title and anchored elite +6.0 offense (second in the league). It was his breakout year and the beginning of an era high volume three point guards. He averaged 24/8 with excellent efficiency and he maintained this production in postseason (with higher volume) and Warriors offense stayed on high level.
I have some concerns about him in the first team, but I decided to pick him here because of combination of his impact, talent and availability.
G: 2010/11 Dwyane Wade
One of the most underrated seasons of the last decade, mainly due to Heat collapse in the finals. Despite less than ideal fit with LeBron and terrible depth, Miami still played at very respectable +4.5 offense (+4.7 in playoffs) and -3.7 defense (-3.0 in playoffs) and it's arguable that it's Wade, not James, that was their best player throughout the season. Wade was all-around superstar then - his defense was as good as ever and he scored at very respectable level despite team not suiting his strengths (he was amazing slasher without spacing).In the finals, he was arguably the best player despite playing next to LeBron and against peak Dirk.
I think he's the best candidate among all available.
F: 2012/13 LeBron James
One of the best players ever in arguably his best season ever. I don't think I have to explain my decision here. I thought about 2012 James over 2013 (better defensively and arguably better postseason run), but I decided to pick 2013 version because of the best RS available (and overall best RS in James career).
F: 2010/11 Dirk Nowitzki
One of the best isolation scorers in NBA history at his absolute peak. Dirk was the definition of unguardable in that season - guard him with bigman and he'd cook him; guard him with smaller defender and he'd abuse him in the post. He had one of the most impressive postseason runs ever (he led an +8.1 offense in possteason). On top of that, he wasn't defensive liability yet at this point.
I view his offense as far more resiliant that any other available candidate at that spot.
C: 2010/11 Dwight Howard
I have a lot of concerns with Dwight, but I can't deny that his peak was spectacular. He was the best defensive player in the league at that time, that could also very efficient 23 ppg from putbacks, lob finishes and some post ups. He's also one of the best rebounders ever. Magic were elite defensively despite having mediocre defenders around him.
He's not very smart offensive player, but he could be used in very effective role with proper system.
I didn't get a response in the "Sign-up" thread but I see after the first few posts everyone will be posting their respective All-NBA teams and then discussion will follow. I am not sure if I can vote but I definitely want to participate in the discussion.
2011-15 All-NBA First Team
G: 2014/15 Stephen Curry G: 2014/15 Chris Paul F: 2012/12 LeBron James F: 2012/13 Kevin Durant C: 2011/12 Kevin Garnett
G: 2014/15 Stephen Curry
To start off, Curry had the best, most complete "Guard Season" during this 5-year stretch. Curry was hyper-efficient to a degree we have never seen at his volume since Adrian Dantley. Unlike Dantley, Curry's main value came off-ball, making him one of the most portable and scalable players we have ever seen. His defense was average to slightly above average, but a player of his caliber offensively proving to be useful on the defensive end, and being part of the #1 defense should shed some light on his defense not being meaningless. While Curry's impact fell by a small amount in the post-season, he was still very good and played at an all-time great level.
G: 2014/15 Chris Paul
It appears that 2015 has the best #1/#2 Point Guard play of all-time or at the very least one of the best ever. Paul was tremendous in 2015, appearing in all 82 regular season games for the first time in his career; nullifying his biggest weakness of being unhealthy. His Advanced numbers were robust, leading the league in Offensive Win Shares and ahead of Steph Curry. In the post-season Paul delivered on the highest level, outperforming and beating a title contender in the first round. Outside of Paul's stinker in game 3, Paul put together a 51/10 Assist to Turnover ratio, more steals than turnovers and a consistent scoring output, notably in game 7 which is one of the best game 7's of all-time. Speaking of Paul's game 7, it is never brought up in conversations on this board or other boards on the internet, but he compiled a 91.5 TS%, scoring 27 points on 13 FGA with 1 turnover.
The argument against Paul is a real argument, injured in the Houston Rockets series. While putting Dwyane Wade ahead of Paul for this reason is a legitimate, Paul's two missed games were not as bad as Wade's entire series versus Chicago. Derrick Rose is the other player I looked at in comparison to Paul and Curry, biases aside I decided his argument was too difficult and had too many holes.
F: 2012/12 LeBron James
Nothing to see here.
F: 2012/13 Kevin Durant
The first year after Harden's departure coincided with Durant taking a jump as a player from a superstar to an All-time Great. Durant made a leap as a scorer, playmaker and defender in 2013 post his 2012 Finals appearance. Durant's impact through most metrics takes a leap and puts him in an echelon only LeBron had achieved at the wing since Jordan. Durant's playoff woes are overblown, his clear-cut #2 option on a relatively shallow team had his season ended by the dirty play of Patrick Beverly. Durant was asked to become a #1 playmaker and passer on a team where that isn't Durant's skill-set. We saw a similar result this season from Kawhi Leonard who was asked to be the teams primary playmaker and the results were disappointing.
In comparison to 2011 Dirk Nowitzki, Dirk had a better situation surrounding him in the post-season and was never tasked with the offensive responsibilities Kevin Durant was and never faced a defender anywhere close to Peak Tony Allen. While the comparison is close, I don't fault Durant for the loss of Westbrook and feel Durant had a better season than Dirk.
C: 2011/12 Kevin Garnett
This one is going to surprise people who read this almost as much as my candidates. The Center position over this 5-year stretch was weak. We had the decline of Prime Dwight Howard, an aging Tim Duncan and Kevin Garnett, 2015 Al Horford who was the best player on a 60-win team and Marc Gasol in 2015 anchoring a team whom took 2 games from the daunted Warriors team.
Garnett was the best defender, he was healthy and his team overachieved. The 2012 Celtics were able to upset their first two opponents in the playoffs, upset by having a lower SRS, and took the talented Heat team to 7 games. There isn't a good reason other than Garnett for an aging Celtics team to be the #1 defense in the NBA. Garnett was the teams best offensive player and defensive player, something Howard, Duncan, Gasol and Horford can not attest to. His offensive resiliency in the post-season and ability to win series while Howard could not do the same gives Garnett the nod for me.
This one is going to surprise people who read this almost as much as my candidates. The Center position over this 5-year stretch was weak. We had the decline of Prime Dwight Howard, an aging Tim Duncan and Kevin Garnett, 2015 Al Horford who was the best player on a 60-win team and Marc Gasol in 2015 anchoring a team whom took 2 games from the daunted Warriors team.
Garnett was the best defender, he was healthy and his team overachieved. The 2012 Celtics were able to upset their first two opponents in the playoffs, upset by having a lower SRS, and took the talented Heat team to 7 games. There isn't a good reason other than Garnett for an aging Celtics team to be the #1 defense in the NBA. Garnett was the teams best offensive player and defensive player, something Howard, Duncan, Gasol and Horford can not attest to. His offensive resiliency in the post-season and ability to win series while Howard could not do the same gives Garnett the nod for me.
Interesting choice, some thoughts:
1. Do you think that Howard wasn't the best Orlando offensive player in 2011? If so, then why? 2. Garnett played only 31 mpg, that's less than Dwight and basically the same as Duncan. Would you say that KG had bigger role than Duncan on his team? 3. Boston was poor offensive team in 2012, so even if we all agree that he was the best offensive player on that team (arguable with Pierce to me), I don't think it says that much about his offensive ability at that point. 4. How do you see 2013 Duncan vs 2012 Garnett in postseason?
Pretty much the perfect point guard season. Best player on a 6.8 SRS team. Led the league in assists. 40% from 3. So good defensively that he guarded KD effectively the previous year... and was now better. Eviscerated the defending champion Spurs. I think he was the best player that year regardless of Curry winning MVP and the title.
SG: 2011 Dwyane Wade
Kind of a weak era for SGs: post prime Kobe/Wade and pre prime Harden. 2015 Harden is an option too but I think I'll just roll with Wade here because he's much more trustworthy in the Playoffs and a much better defender. Given Harden's track record the next few years I'm going to say the 2015 performance wasn't crazy indicative of how good he actually was in a Playoff setting, which leads me to trusting Wade more.
SF: 2013 LeBron James
I mean, duh. Close to GOAT peak, probably only 2 MJ seasons, 2 of LeBron's own seasons, 2 Wilt seasons and 1 Shaq season can be considered better IMO.
PF: 2011 Dirk Nowitzki
Incredible player, incredible Playoff run. Led the only championship this decade without any All-Star teammates (I think?). The efficiency is great but the raw numbers don't capture his impact. The hockey assist effect was enormous. Just a massive defensive attention suck, insanely effective off-ball and unstoppable in the post.
C: 2015 Anthony Davis
A bit controversial probably. Came down to him and Howard. Frankly once again I just trust Davis more in a Playoff setting. There might be some recency bias here (ok there probably is for sure), but to me 2020 Davis is just confirming that he always was this good in the Playoffs. Plus Howard comes with his own set of drama issues before he was humbled.
A bit controversial probably. Came down to him and Howard. Frankly once again I just trust Davis more in a Playoff setting. There might be some recency bias here (ok there probably is for sure), but to me 2020 Davis is just confirming that he always was this good in the Playoffs. Plus Howard comes with his own set of drama issues before he was humbled.
There is one thing - Davis played almost strictly as a PF in 2015. Are you confident with picking a younger version of Davis at C?
A bit controversial probably. Came down to him and Howard. Frankly once again I just trust Davis more in a Playoff setting. There might be some recency bias here (ok there probably is for sure), but to me 2020 Davis is just confirming that he always was this good in the Playoffs. Plus Howard comes with his own set of drama issues before he was humbled.
There is one thing - Davis played almost strictly as a PF in 2015. Are you confident with picking a younger version of Davis at C?
Well it depends. Isn't the goal of this just to represent who we think are the best players? In that case I'm not sure what confidence has to do with it: we aren't in an all-time league where he has to guard Shaq or Kareem. If you're saying we need to build the best possible TEAM, then that is different, I'd go with Dwight. But that doesn't seem to be the case... if it's just who was better in a vacuum, Dwight or AD, I go the latter.
G Steph Curry 2015 MVP season + great playoffs, including the Finals where he should have been named MVP.
G Dwyane Wade 2011 Not sure between him and 2015 Harden. That's probably his last great season, the last when an argument between him and LeBron could be made Funny enough, not All NBA first, but definitely superior overall to Kobe and Rose
F Dirk Nowitzki 2011 Obvious pick, second only to the next one
F LeBron James 2013 I think his most dominant season, even if I got a Ray Allen away from not winning the title
C Tim Duncan 2013 Of course the weakest position, but that was actually a great year for him. Again, a Ray Allen from the tile and, probably, a finals MVP
C Kevin Garnett, '11-12 F LeBron James, '12-13 F Dirk Nowitzki, '10-11 G Steph Curry, '14-15 G Dwyane Wade, '10-11
At Center:
This was between Garnett, Dwight Howard, and Tim Duncan for me. I expect most to side with Howard, and in all honesty, I went into this asking myself "Do I really feel comfortable NOT picking Howard?" Turns out, yes, why?
Adding fuel to the fire: Howard was my choice for MVP at the time in '10-11. Do I really think the cagey old KG was better than an MVP?
So, here's the thing: '10-11 was a bizarre season with no great candidate for MVP, with every option having a "Yeah, but...", and you kinda had to decided what bothered you least. The fact that LeBron wasn't synergizing that great with his new team yet even though we all saw him as the best player in the world? The fact that Derrick Rose was very clearly not an MVP level player but played the star role on the best regular season team? I decided I preferred to give Howard the benefit of the doubt on his issue.
What was his issue? The fact that he seemed like he was in the process of ruining the team due to a misguided notion that he deserved better teammates than the Magic had, and a better coach than Stan Van Gundy. He did not realize that the team wasn't just well-built around him, it was actually ahead of its time with spacing.
At the time I decided to go with Howard by saying "Listen, this may all work itself out. He's having more impact than anyone else in the league."
But in the end he was in the process of ruining the best situation he'd ever be in, and while that process would go on for another year due to a bizarre set of circumstances of his own making, but the team peaked the previous two years, and this year fell to no longer be a contender which included trading Howard's best and best fitting teammate (Rashard Lewis), which they wouldn't have done if they hadn't felt pressure to do so from Howard's camp.
This stuff matters to me, and of course Garnett & Duncan are on the other end of the spectrum in terms of their organizational impact.
I went with Garnett here and I'll point to two big things: 1) If you look at indications of his impact this year, it's quite excellent, and in the playoffs he played plenty of minutes, and 2) I think Garnett's direct impact on Celtic culture is something for the ages, and I think that culture had everything to do with why the Celtics at this late stage upset their way to a match up against the eventual champs, and fought them better than anyone else.
If the years in question included 2010, I'd give the nod to Howard '09-10, but I think Garnett in '11-12 should get more respect for his season accomplishment than Howard in '10-11.
At Forward:
Comes down to LeBron, Dirk, and Kevin Durant. No question that if this were a Half-Decade Team, KD gets the nod over Dirk, but just one one year, I'll go with Dirk.
To elaborate a bit: The thing about Dirk by this point is that he had things perfectly set up for himself both in terms of fit and in his ability to work within that fit. Put him in a random environment, he's not as effective as KD, but he was playing in the furthest thing from a random environment because of what he'd work to build in Dallas through the years. It's a real thing that a player doesn't have complete control over, but his actions set him up for the possibility of this, and then he can reap the benefits of this.
What's interesting here is that early KD hadn't done anything wrong along these lines...yet. He was still optimizing his game and thus I'd put him slightly below this perfect-fitting Dirk, but I fully expected he would eventually surpass Dirk. But the way the team let Westbrook grow like an out of control fire stymied that, then he went somewhere that really couldn't be expected to build around him in that way, then he chose to have Kyrie as his partner. Good chance KD's ceiling as an impactful player will be considerably less than it could have been if he'd have had a more Dirk-like career.
Before I leave the front court, while I think it's so obvious to be unnecessary to elaborate on:
LeBron was the best player of this half decade both by total play and by peak, and hence it was never a question to me as to whether he'd make the team.
At Guard:
Between Steph, Wade, and Chris Paul.
I'm a Steph believer, so it's not a question for me whether he's the best of the bunch. The league has been re-shaped based on what he's done beginning in '14-15. If you had a choice to draft one of these 3 guys and you didn't pick Steph, I'm honestly not sure what you'd be thinking no matter which of the 30 teams was drafting. He's the scariest on-ball guy, and he's the scariest off-ball guy.
Wade vs Paul is tough. I could absolutely see drafting Paul over Wade, though it would depend on my team. I don't buy into the notion that Paul is a fundamental problem in the playoffs. His small size makes him more prone to bad match ups than most, and that's a factor here, but I don't think we should blow it out of proportion.
But I'm really impressed when Wade goes nuclear. I've described him at his best as a "mutant 3-year-old". So much motor, so much aggression. You might say "Doesn't Westbrook give that to you all the time?" and the answer there is "Pretty much", but while Wade isn't a CP3-level basketball intellect, he's savvy enough in how he plays that he can work with a superior talent without getting too in his way, and that's what makes the difference.
As I say this, one might riposte: "Uh, LeBron didn't seem to function all that well with Wade like this, you sure Wade didn't get in his way in '10-11 before settling into more clear cut beta territory?" I'd say though that the issue wasn't really that Wade being an animal kept LeBron from doing his thing, but that LeBron became hesitant through a combination of the Mav defense and how well Wade was playing. LeBron's uncertainty of what to do has something to do with Wade, but I don't think anything about Wade fundamentally got in LeBron's way, and I think an older, savvier LeBron would have handled it fine. I think Westbrook would get in the way of any other star the way OKC had him play, and I blame Westbrook and the organization for that.
A bit controversial probably. Came down to him and Howard. Frankly once again I just trust Davis more in a Playoff setting. There might be some recency bias here (ok there probably is for sure), but to me 2020 Davis is just confirming that he always was this good in the Playoffs. Plus Howard comes with his own set of drama issues before he was humbled.
There is one thing - Davis played almost strictly as a PF in 2015. Are you confident with picking a younger version of Davis at C?
AND-1'ed both posts. Glad both that someone is bringing up AD and someone else is urging caution on him.
1. Do you think that Howard wasn't the best Orlando offensive player in 2011? If so, then why? 2. Garnett played only 31 mpg, that's less than Dwight and basically the same as Duncan. Would you say that KG had bigger role than Duncan on his team? 3. Boston was poor offensive team in 2012, so even if we all agree that he was the best offensive player on that team (arguable with Pierce to me), I don't think it says that much about his offensive ability at that point. 4. How do you see 2013 Duncan vs 2012 Garnett in postseason?
Since I agreed with Jordan Syndrome on this, I'll respond to these question (hope he does too):
1. Yes, Howard was the best offensive player on the Magic in 2011. 2. Garnett played a lot more in the playoffs. Now, Howard played even more still, but when you're playing 75%+ of your teams minutes, I'm good with that.
You can say that Garnett was only able to do that because he took the regular season off a bit, and you can say Garnett was only able to do this because of the team he was on, but 1) the NBA has chosen to let half its teams into the post-season and emphasized the post-season as the true foundation for legacy building so they've basically created a scheme that allows older veterans to continue to thrive on the grandest stage by doing what Garnett did and that's just how it goes, and 2) Garnett deserves credit for the Celtics becoming what they were and Howard deserves blame for the Magic eroding into the type of team where he had to raise that floor.
3. I think that if you add up on-court impact minute by minute, Howard takes this. His offensive edge is the larger part of this to be sure, but fundamentally the argument that I make for Garnett is a bit more abstract than that, and I would understand why anyone would disagree with me.
4. 2013 Duncan vs 2012 Garnett. Neck and neck. Completely fine with someone picking Duncan here. I'm a smidge more impressed by Garnett's role.
11 Wade is a contender as well. 15 Harden would get a look too, but his defense was still pretty awful at that point. I think Curry's close to a lock. He's clearly ahead of Wade and Paul for me and no other guard comes close. The combination of shooting and finishing (69% at the rim is insane for a small guard) was straight up revolutionary. I think his playoff struggles are legit, but in 2015 he was great.
Even with Curry having that revolutionary season, it was Paul leading the best offense in the league. You can knock him for the Houston collapse but he was still great in the playoffs (22/8, 63% TS, series winner against the defending champs). Like Paul, Wade's probably most impactful as a ball dominant lead guard like in 2009/2010, but he still put up solid numbers sharing with LeBron (+5.5 RAPM, 26/6 +4% TS, Heat had +4.4 ORtg). In the playoffs, Wade was really good in the higher profile Boston/Dallas series while he was kind of really bad against Philly/Chicago and LeBron took the lead. I think the alternating good/bad series is kind of emblematic of Wade's fit with LeBron in 2011. I wouldn't mind an argument of Wade being a better player than Paul, but for me Paul as a lead guard is better than Wade as a 1B.
Wade could make up the difference on defense, but I don't see it. I think his defense post 2010 is definitely overrated. The shotblocking is definitely useful and produces a great highlight reel, but I question how much it really affects things. In 2011, the Heat were actually a smidge better with him off, while RAPM has him as about average (+0.3). On the other hand, I think Paul is pretty much at his defensive peak in 2015. RAPM has him at +2. I don't know if a 6'0" PG is really doing that, but Paul definitely had great hands, super physical, and obviously great IQ. I think you could rely on him to basically make only neutral or positive plays on that end, not quite with Wade.
F: 2012-13 LeBron James
This one's a lock. No arguments unless you really like 2012 instead.
F: 2010-11 Dirk Nowitzki
Closest contender is 13 or 14 Durant. They both provided most of their value through efficient scoring and Durant was the more efficient scorer in the RS, but I don't see Durant impacting the game the same way Dirk did. As a wing player, he didn't provide the same type of gravity and spacing that Dirk provided as a shooting big. Tony Allen locked up Durant in both Memphis series while Dirk was essentially matchup proof. Durant and OKC's efficiency takes a dip in the postseason whereas Dirk maintains his efficiency while increasing volume. Any advantage Durant has in playmaking, Dirk makes up by just never turning the ball over.
C: 2010-11 Dwight Howard
I've soured a bit on Dwight's defensive carry job after Steve Clifford showed us he could get a top 10 defense out of any competent roster. 2011 is also right around when Dwight started buying into Shaq's trash talk about posting up, which I think really hurt Orlando's offense. There were a lot of reasons for Orlando's offensive drop off from 2010 to 2011, but moving away from PnR to let Dwight turn it over 6 times a game against Atlanta didn't help. Compare that to 2013 Duncan, who willingly ceded control to Parker/Ginobili and found a way to be useful in a more effective style of offense. Also shoutout to 2012 KG, who I think is the best defender of the group (similar discipline to Duncan while being a bit more mobile) but just couldn't really do anything on offense (basically only taking midrangers and open layups) Still, even if per-minute impact is a wash or slightly in Duncan or KG's favor, Dwight played a whole bunch more minutes.
1. Do you think that Howard wasn't the best Orlando offensive player in 2011? If so, then why? 2. Garnett played only 31 mpg, that's less than Dwight and basically the same as Duncan. Would you say that KG had bigger role than Duncan on his team? 3. Boston was poor offensive team in 2012, so even if we all agree that he was the best offensive player on that team (arguable with Pierce to me), I don't think it says that much about his offensive ability at that point. 4. How do you see 2013 Duncan vs 2012 Garnett in postseason?
Doctor MJ wrote:
Spoiler:
Since I agreed with Jordan Syndrome on this, I'll respond to these question (hope he does too):
1. Yes, Howard was the best offensive player on the Magic in 2011. 2. Garnett played a lot more in the playoffs. Now, Howard played even more still, but when you're playing 75%+ of your teams minutes, I'm good with that.
You can say that Garnett was only able to do that because he took the regular season off a bit, and you can say Garnett was only able to do this because of the team he was on, but 1) the NBA has chosen to let half its teams into the post-season and emphasized the post-season as the true foundation for legacy building so they've basically created a scheme that allows older veterans to continue to thrive on the grandest stage by doing what Garnett did and that's just how it goes, and 2) Garnett deserves credit for the Celtics becoming what they were and Howard deserves blame for the Magic eroding into the type of team where he had to raise that floor.
3. I think that if you add up on-court impact minute by minute, Howard takes this. His offensive edge is the larger part of this to be sure, but fundamentally the argument that I make for Garnett is a bit more abstract than that, and I would understand why anyone would disagree with me.
4. 2013 Duncan vs 2012 Garnett. Neck and neck. Completely fine with someone picking Duncan here. I'm a smidge more impressed by Garnett's role.
1. I think Howard has a very strong argument for being the best offensive player in Orlando but...First of all, the player who has a strong argument over Howard played half as many minutes as Howard. The player who has a strong argument over Howard also benefited immensely by playing next to Howard, but the player next to Howard is more scalable than Howard, enter Ryan Anderson.
I understand the sentiment of 22 year old Ryan Anderson being a better offensive player than Dwight Howard sounds outlandish, but it makes sense.
First of all, Dwight Howard is a black hole offensively. His Assist to Turnover ratio of .39 is all-time bad and he is not good, in any sense, at creating a shot by receiving an entry pass into the post. This leads me to believe building around Dwight Howard is a difficult task and the truth is it ended up being that way in real life, not just in a hypothetical. The only playoff success the Magic found around the so-called top 50 player of all-time, coming in at #44 in this board's last Top 100 project, was the result of the team being lights out from 3. We have a player who is difficult to build around offensively but also has the belief he is a great offensive player and those two things are a big no-no.
Second, where Dwight Howard excels offensively, Offensive Rebounding and "Above the Rim Spacing", Ryan Anderson makes up for by being a fantastic offensive rebounder and floor spacer himself. In the year we are focusing in on, 2011, Ryan Anderson had an Oreb% of 10.8% while Dwight Howard came in at 12.6% and a difference of 3.8 and 5.8 OReb per 100. Ryan Anderson spaced the floor at an elite level with over 5 3PA and converting them at a 39.3% clip. Ryan Anderson actually shot Less mid-range shots in 2011 than Dwight Howard...wrap your head around that and the fact that 11% of Dwights shot came in the mid-range while only 5% of Anderson's came in the same area. Ryan Anderson's shot profile was perfect, 65% from 3, 24% at or near the rim and 11% of shots somewhere in between.
2. Garnett definitely had a larger role for his team when comparing them in the chosen voted seasons, 2012 for Garnett and 2013 for Duncan. It is close, but I lean Garnett comfortably.
Both players played a similar role and the strategy was the same, play around 30 MPG in the regular season and around 36 MPG in the post-season. What separates Garnett for me was his mobility advantage defensively and he had more responsibility on that end. Garnett was working with some bad defenders in the post-season yet the Celtics had an all-time great defense in the post-season. The team fielded an old Ray Allen, Rookie Averegy Bradley who was injured and missed 10 games, Brandon Bass, 34 year old Paul Pierce but the team had Mickael Pietrus and Rajon Rondo as bright spots offensively. The Spurs had Kawhi Leonard, Danny Green and Tiago Splitter all as very good defenders. I will admit Tony Parker and Gary Neal were sieves on that end but overall the team had significantly better two-way players compared to Boston.
It is a close comparison between Duncan and Garnett, I just like what Garnett was able to do with his team more than what Duncan did and both players did a great job anchoring their respective rosters.
3. The Celtics were terrible offensively because they had Rondo dominating the ball, Pierce and Allen reaching their expiration dates, Brandon Bass, Rookie Avery Bradley, Greg Stiemsma and Mickael Pietrus rounding out the teams rotation. Nobody besides Rondo and to a less extent Garnett and Pierce could create shots or generate offense. Compare that to a team with Prime Tony Parker, Tiago Splitter, Danny Green, Boris Diaw Gary Neal and a young Kawhi and old man Ginobili and the roster talent is night and day for me.
If you were to swap KG and Duncan I don't see how the Spurs get worse or how the Celtics get better, and even though this isn't a great way to assess or compare players, it certainly is an interesting thought exercise. The exercise gets even more interesting with 2011 Dwight Howard as I believe the Celtics get worse with Dwight and the Spurs get better with Howard.
All said, I do agree, Garnett was not some fantastic offensive threat like he was in the early 2000's, but I don't view Howard as that type of offensive talent either.
4. I am not going to touch much on 2013 Duncan vs 2012 Garnett in the post-season as I covered much of what I wanted to say about the comparison already. I think they are close, the differences come down to splitting hairs but the truth is we never saw later-Duncan with a washed up cast like we saw with Garnett in 2012.
