All-NBA Teams Project: 2006-10 All-NBA First Team

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Re: All-NBA Teams Project: 2006-10 All-NBA First Team 

Post#21 » by Doctor MJ » Thu Sep 24, 2020 8:17 pm

E-Balla wrote:
Ryoga Hibiki wrote:are we really fine in having 2007 Duncan in as a center?

Tell me who's doing the tip offs for San Antonio because that doesn't look like Fabricio Oberto to me.



Duncan started the majority of his games at C, so he should be considered one.


Also, bkref calls Duncan a center that year.
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Re: All-NBA Teams Project: 2006-10 All-NBA First Team 

Post#22 » by ardee » Thu Sep 24, 2020 8:19 pm

HeartBreakKid wrote:Anyone else want to elaborate on Garnett>Nowitzki?


I don't think there's a case. Dirk's team record is more impressive when you consider the disparity in supporting casts. Both were poor in the Finals but Dirk eviscerated the entire Western conference including a series where his direct positional opponent was Duncan, while Garnett was very inconsistent and even his highs weren't really spectacular at all.
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Re: All-NBA Teams Project: 2006-10 All-NBA First Team 

Post#23 » by 70sFan » Thu Sep 24, 2020 8:25 pm

G:2008/09 Dwyane Wade
G: 2007/08 Kobe Bryant
F: 2008/09 LeBron James
F: 2007/08 Kevin Garnett
C: 2006/07 Tim Duncan


Dwyane Wade - unreal peak, clearly overshadowed by James season. Such a shame that his best seasons were wasted in terrible teams. GOAT-level slasher with excellent playmaking abilities. I thought about 2006 Wade as well, but decided to go with him.

Kobe Bryant - his best all-around season, consistent defensively (unlike in 2006) and monster offensively. One of the best offensive seasons of the past 2 decades, a shame that he couldn't overcome Boston defensive pressure.

LeBron James - GOAT-level season, what can I say more?

Kevin Garnett - it's a tough call between him and Dirk, but I'm very high on defensive anchors who could also lead your team on offense. You can't find many better defensive anchors than him.

Tim Duncan - one of his best seasons, arguably his best defensive season. Don't listen ardee, he was amazing ;)
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Re: All-NBA Teams Project: 2006-10 All-NBA First Team 

Post#24 » by Orin » Thu Sep 24, 2020 8:35 pm

Just wanted to say : how crazy is it that Lebron is most likely gonna be voted in the first team unanimously for 3 separate 5 years periods? He could also sneak in the 3rd team for the 2001-2005 period, and is very likely to get in a hypotethical 2021-2025 team.
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Re: All-NBA Teams Project: 2006-10 All-NBA First Team 

Post#25 » by 70sFan » Thu Sep 24, 2020 8:46 pm

Orin wrote:Just wanted to say : how crazy is it that Lebron is most likely gonna be voted in the first team unanimously for 3 separate 5 years periods? He could also sneak in the 3rd team for the 2001-2005 period, and is very likely to get in a hypotethical 2021-2025 team.

Kareem and Duncan will likely accomplish the same.
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Re: All-NBA Teams Project: 2006-10 All-NBA First Team 

Post#26 » by Jaivl » Thu Sep 24, 2020 8:57 pm

70sFan wrote:
Orin wrote:Just wanted to say : how crazy is it that Lebron is most likely gonna be voted in the first team unanimously for 3 separate 5 years periods? He could also sneak in the 3rd team for the 2001-2005 period, and is very likely to get in a hypotethical 2021-2025 team.

Kareem and Duncan will likely accomplish the same.

Duncan is already not unanimous.
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Re: All-NBA Teams Project: 2006-10 All-NBA First Team 

Post#27 » by 70sFan » Thu Sep 24, 2020 9:04 pm

Jaivl wrote:
70sFan wrote:
Orin wrote:Just wanted to say : how crazy is it that Lebron is most likely gonna be voted in the first team unanimously for 3 separate 5 years periods? He could also sneak in the 3rd team for the 2001-2005 period, and is very likely to get in a hypotethical 2021-2025 team.

Kareem and Duncan will likely accomplish the same.

Duncan is already not unanimous.

Right, this one vote :banghead:
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Re: All-NBA Teams Project: 2006-10 All-NBA First Team 

Post#28 » by ccameron » Thu Sep 24, 2020 9:25 pm

G: 2009 Wade: I go this year despite the better playoffs in 2006 and 2010 because I think he was at his peak as a player here, it all came together -- Just as fast as and explosive as '06 but stronger, and with more skill. He left nothing on the table all season, they shouldn't even have been in the playoffs with that roster.

G: 2008 Kobe: I think this is peak Kobe, despite that he has better playoff runs. Kobe is one of those players that just kept adding to his game and becoming more skilled and more intelligent as a team player as he goes on. At some point it becomes a tradeoff with athleticism, but I feel like this is the sweet spot.

SF: 2009 Lebron: Obviously. This was not his peak mentally or skill wise, but it might have been his athletic peak. Crazy stat stuffing year, with an insane playoff run.

PF: 2010 Dirk. As HeartBreakKid mentioned, he's got all the skills of 2011 Dirk, but he's a year younger. Going with this year over 2006 because of his more versatile offensive game, making him more resilient to defenses and harder to gameplay for. To me that's the most important quality to have in the playoffs. Garnett was great in '08, but at this point in their careers I'm going with Dirk.

C: 2007 Duncan. Like other's have already said, his last great year.
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Re: All-NBA Teams Project: 2006-10 All-NBA First Team 

Post#29 » by Doctor MJ » Thu Sep 24, 2020 9:41 pm

Alright, here we go:

C Tim Duncan '06-07
F LeBron James '08-09
F Kevin Garnett '07-08
G Kobe Bryant '07-08
G Steve Nash '06-07

At Center:

So I was actually thinking I'd be voting for Howard here. I really don't want to knock him at all in this window...but Duncan was classified as a center in '06-07, and I'm going with Duncan here without hesitation. Duncan is Duncan.

At Forward:

LeBron & KG are easy choices here for me. LeBron should be an easy choice for everyone so I won't belabor that.

KG in Boston transformed an organization that honestly had lost all trace of winning culture. Any kind of off-court impact that people want to be attributed to Doc Rivers or Paul Pierce should be given to KG...and then you add in he had the definitive defensive season of the 21st century this year.

I'll say that I think Dirk was worthy of a 1st team spot here based on how good he was, but I didn't seriously consider him.

At Guard:

Let me touch upon Kobe first before the longer explanation I feel I need to give with Nash. Back in this era, I really wasn't sold on Kobe > Wade. I've since come to have a greater appreciation for Kobe's shot-making compared to someone like Wade.

I have always respected Wade and his attitude a ton, and loved watching him play. But I feel like his offensive attack is best suited for floor raising. That first title, Wade was the MVP no doubt, but the team won with defense, and he was not the MVP of the defense. I think he got even better by 2009, but the team's offense still wasn't actually torching teams.

What about Wade vs Nash? Didn't I just give Wade the nod over a Nash-like guy in Chris Paul?

So to begin, those who know me know I've long been a Nash guy. I consider him to have been the best offensive player of his era. I can just lean on that and say that I rate Nash a smidge better than Paul in general, which is true, but I thought this would be a good time use bkref's new Adjusted Shooting numbers, specifically TS Add.

So first, here's a link to the 2007 numbers because this stuff still hasn't been incorporated into their Stathead features so far as I can tell:

https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2007_adj_shooting.html

If you sort by TS Add, the top 3 will look like this:

1. Amar'e Stoudemire 249.8
2. Steve Nash 242.8
3. Dirk Nowitzki 201.2

So first off, I'm not aware of another year - though haven't done a complete search - of another year where the top 2 guys are from the same team. Second, pretty sizable gap between those top 2 and everyone else.

Next: Obviously Nash was allowing Amar'e to do this. Amar'e never broke 100 without Nash. So with Nash you have a guy who is having an unusual type of impact on his main partner while also being an outlier himself (and also having similarly striking if lesser in pure magnitude effects on other teammates).

I don't want to pretend that my opinions on Nash are based on this stat that I only gained access to recently, but I'll note that you're not seeing numbers like this from Chris Paul whose peak by this method is a 163.6 and whose non-Harden teammates aren't getting massive TS Add numbers (and Harden's peak year came before Paul arrived, and he was on pace for an even higher year this year). Paul is an incredible point guard, but he's not Nash. You can point out his strengths relative to Nash and argue that they outweigh Nash's strengths, but there are ways where Nash pops out in a way that Paul just doesn't.

Back to Wade, it's not a shocker I'd imagine that his TS Add peak (148.0) isn't in the same ballpark as Nash's, but I think I owe a bit more explanation of why it appears I'm more impressed with Wade in '10-11 compared to earlier, in part because I found I was asking myself the same question.

The truth is that when I was comparing Wade to Harden & Paul last time, I was asking myself if I thought those guys could do as well as Wade as LeBron's teammate, and concluded the answer was no. Key thing is that Wade showed an ability to be both alpha and beta. Paul's never been able to play beta, which is why he was banished to a team this year where getting into the playoffs at all was an accomplishment. Harden maybe could have, but from the time he's truly been in his prime, he's not just been an alpha, but a jealous alpha.

The way Wade willingly took a backseat in the middle of his prime to LeBron and worked together with him while also being ready to go alpha as needed impressed me.

But meanwhile, I think Nash's intelligence and team focus would allow him to basically thrive next to basically any scorer. You can argue that Wade's defense made him better overall than Nash, but I am very, very impressed by Nash's offensive CV.

Last note: What about Kobe vs Nash? The age old question, and one that because of the CFFGG format I don't have to answer, but I will throw Kobe fans a bone here:

I do think that regular season advanced stats underrate Kobe, and I do think that in today's game Nash's defensive limitations might truly be a problem that can't be solved. While they both played people overstated Nash's negative impact on defense, but I wonder how things would be today.
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Re: All-NBA Teams Project: 2006-10 All-NBA First Team 

Post#30 » by Ryoga Hibiki » Thu Sep 24, 2020 10:14 pm

70sFan wrote:
Orin wrote:Just wanted to say : how crazy is it that Lebron is most likely gonna be voted in the first team unanimously for 3 separate 5 years periods? He could also sneak in the 3rd team for the 2001-2005 period, and is very likely to get in a hypotethical 2021-2025 team.

Kareem and Duncan will likely accomplish the same.
Duncan might get the first in the 96-00 time as well, for sure he would get my vote

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Re: All-NBA Teams Project: 2006-10 All-NBA First Team 

Post#31 » by Ryoga Hibiki » Thu Sep 24, 2020 10:15 pm

Jaivl wrote:
70sFan wrote:
Orin wrote:Just wanted to say : how crazy is it that Lebron is most likely gonna be voted in the first team unanimously for 3 separate 5 years periods? He could also sneak in the 3rd team for the 2001-2005 period, and is very likely to get in a hypotethical 2021-2025 team.

Kareem and Duncan will likely accomplish the same.

Duncan is already not unanimous.
for a matter of principle.
he made the All NBA as a forward, that year

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Re: All-NBA Teams Project: 2006-10 All-NBA First Team 

Post#32 » by Ryoga Hibiki » Thu Sep 24, 2020 10:17 pm

Doctor MJ wrote:
E-Balla wrote:
Ryoga Hibiki wrote:are we really fine in having 2007 Duncan in as a center?

Tell me who's doing the tip offs for San Antonio because that doesn't look like Fabricio Oberto to me.



Duncan started the majority of his games at C, so he should be considered one.


Also, bkref calls Duncan a center that year.
but he was not one in the All NBA ballot

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Re: All-NBA Teams Project: 2006-10 All-NBA First Team 

Post#33 » by Jordan Syndrome » Thu Sep 24, 2020 10:23 pm

Ryoga Hibiki wrote:
Doctor MJ wrote:
E-Balla wrote:Tell me who's doing the tip offs for San Antonio because that doesn't look like Fabricio Oberto to me.



Duncan started the majority of his games at C, so he should be considered one.


Also, bkref calls Duncan a center that year.
but he was not one in the All NBA ballot

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Which should not be relevant to how this project, in particular the participants, view a player.

I will be posting later tonight or in the morning.
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Re: All-NBA Teams Project: 2006-10 All-NBA First Team 

Post#34 » by Ryoga Hibiki » Thu Sep 24, 2020 10:26 pm

I am in general feeling wrong of voting 2008 Garnett there, I would probably even take 2007 Duncan over him.
The reason I say this is that season is extremely significant more because it gives us a glimpse on how good he was in the rest of prime than on how good he was that year. He focused on defense, his offensive responsibilities took a step back, which is fine, he had crazy impact.
But a playoff run like the one Dirk had is imo clearly more significant.

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Re: All-NBA Teams Project: 2006-10 All-NBA First Team 

Post#35 » by eminence » Thu Sep 24, 2020 10:40 pm

KG's playoff run was great, I honestly have no idea what y'all are on about. The only high minutes champ from this period with a better on court rating than him was '09 Odom. Celts just had a bad bench to make the run close.
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Re: All-NBA Teams Project: 2006-10 All-NBA First Team 

Post#36 » by Doctor MJ » Thu Sep 24, 2020 10:49 pm

Ryoga Hibiki wrote:I am in general feeling wrong of voting 2008 Garnett there, I would probably even take 2007 Duncan over him.
The reason I say this is that season is extremely significant more because it gives us a glimpse on how good he was in the rest of prime than on how good he was that year. He focused on defense, his offensive responsibilities took a step back, which is fine, he had crazy impact.
But a playoff run like the one Dirk had is imo clearly more significant.

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Interesting choice of words.

I might argue that Garnett's '07-08 season is the single most significant player season of the 2006-10 window.
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Re: All-NBA Teams Project: 2006-10 All-NBA First Team 

Post#37 » by ardee » Thu Sep 24, 2020 11:04 pm

I would really like to see a case for KG over Dirk. 2004 KG, then yes it's a debate... but Dirk was very clearly the better player in 2006 and you'd have to believe that KG's abilities actually improved when he went to Boston.
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Re: All-NBA Teams Project: 2006-10 All-NBA First Team 

Post#38 » by clearlynotjesse » Thu Sep 24, 2020 11:09 pm

Boston had a -8 defense and won a ring, that's pretty significant. It's not like they were stacked defensively either. Thibs's scheme was ahead of the game, but you still need to execute. KG was the backbone of everything. He led them in scoring in the playoffs and on above average efficiency until the Finals. Can't really handwave away Dirk and Kobe's bad finals but not do the same for KG.
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Re: All-NBA Teams Project: 2006-10 All-NBA First Team 

Post#39 » by 70sFan » Thu Sep 24, 2020 11:15 pm

ardee wrote:I would really like to see a case for KG over Dirk. 2004 KG, then yes it's a debate... but Dirk was very clearly the better player in 2006 and you'd have to believe that KG's abilities actually improved when he went to Boston.

KG was in terrible situation in 2006, so it's not that easy to say that he was worse than Dirk. I don't think the gap is large, but Garnett was quite consistent throughout his prime, it's not like he became much worse than in the early 2000s (although he did regress, especially on offense and he wasn't all-time great rebounder anymore).

2008 Garnett could give you all-time level of defense (top 10 ever basically) while being still good enough offensively to be the best (or at worst 1A/1B with Pierce) offensive player on winning team. Was he as good as Dirk offensively? Of course not, but 2004 KG wasn't as good as Dirk either on that end. You basically ask how can you rate KG over Dirk, period. If you prefer Dirk's extremely resiliant offense then I can't blame you. Some may prefer two-way impact of Garnett though and KG was still much better defender and much more versatile player in 2008 than Dirk ever was.

Top is it is an extremely close comparison and I picked KG due to my usual preference of strong defenders. I don't understand why you seem to be upset by this choice.
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Re: All-NBA Teams Project: 2006-10 All-NBA First Team 

Post#40 » by eminence » Fri Sep 25, 2020 12:03 am

It's not at all unreasonable for a better player to have a worse (or multiple) season than a lesser player (see '19 LeBron).
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