RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project/List

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RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project/List 

Post#1 » by trex_8063 » Tue Oct 6, 2020 9:12 pm

The time is once again upon us to do another Top 100 of All-Time project that several have expressed enthusiasm for. PLEASE READ ALL OF THIS OP TO BE FAMILIAR WITH THE PROCESS AND GUIDELINES

Links to prior lists:
Doctor MJ's spreadsheet with information back to 2006 and some 2003
RealGM Top 100 List 2008
RealGM Top 100 List 2011
Poster Pre-Lists from before 2014 project
RealGM Top 100 List 2014
Poster Pre-Lists from before 2017 project
RealGM Top 100 List 2017


2020 List
1. LeBron James
2. Michael Jordan
3. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
4. Bill Russell
5. Tim Duncan
6. Wilt Chamberlain
7. Magic Johnson
8. Shaquille O'Neal
9. Hakeem Olajuwon
10. Larry Bird
11. Kevin Garnett
12. Kobe Bryant
13. Jerry West
14. Oscar Robertson
15. Dirk Nowitzki
16. Karl Malone
17. David Robinson
18. Julius Erving
19. George Mikan
20. Moses Malone
21. Charles Barkley
22. Kevin Durant
23. Chris Paul
24. Stephen Curry
25. Bob Pettit
26. John Stockton
27. Steve Nash
28. Dwyane Wade
29. Patrick Ewing
30. Walt Frazier
31. James Harden
32. Scottie Pippen
33. Elgin Baylor
34. John Havlicek
35. Rick Barry
36. Jason Kidd
37. George Gervin
38. Clyde Drexler
39. Reggie Miller
40. Artis Gilmore
41. Dolph Schayes
42. Kawhi Leonard
43. Isiah Thomas
44. Russell Westbrook
45. Willis Reed
46. Chauncey Billups
47. Paul Pierce
48. Gary Payton
49. Pau Gasol
50. Ray Allen
51. Dwight Howard
52. Kevin McHale
53. Manu Ginobili
54. Dave Cowens
55. Adrian Dantley
56. Sam Jones
57. Bob Lanier
58. Dikembe Mutombo
59. Elvin Hayes
60. Paul Arizin
61. Anthony Davis
62. Robert Parish
63. Bob Cousy
64. Alonzo Mourning
65. Nate Thurmond
66. Allen Iverson
67. Tracy McGrady
68. Alex English
69. Vince Carter
70. Wes Unseld
71. Tony Parker
72. Rasheed Wallace
73. Dominique Wilkins
74. Giannis Antetokounmpo
75. Kevin Johnson
76. Bobby Jones
77. Bob McAdoo
78. Shawn Marion
79. Dennis Rodman
80. Larry Nance
81. Ben Wallace
82. Hal Greer
83. Grant Hill
84. Sidney Moncrief
85. Damian Lillard
86. Chris Bosh
87. Horace Grant
88. Jeff Hornacek
89. Billy Cunningham
90. Dan Issel
91. James Worthy
92. Carmelo Anthony
93. Terry Porter
94. Cliff Hagan
95. Nikola Jokic
96. Jack Sikma
97. Gus Williams
98. Draymond Green
99. Walt Bellamy
100. Bill Walton

Anyone and everyone is free to participate in the discussion during the course of this project. However, the voter pool will be pre-approved by a panel of moderators. Tenured posters in good standing will be allowed into the voter pool immediately.
Brand new/unknown posters [or posters with questionable records] may be asked to participate in the discussion WITHOUT having a counted vote for a few threads, to demonstrate at least reasonably capable knowledge, genuine intent, and ability to converse in a respectful manner. If they pass this brief “trial period”, they will then be added to the eligible voter list below.

Pending details of user record and history, that “trial period” may be longer for some than it is for others.

But here’s the important part: if you wish to participate as part of the voter panel, YOU MUST STATE YOUR DESIRE TO VOTE IN THE PROJECT IN THIS THREAD (though this is not required to participate in the general discussion).


This top 100 list is to comprise the greatest in all of BAA/NBA/ABA history (EDIT: you may also consider NBL as far back as '47). We are not going to stipulate a specific criteria that we all must follow. Everyone is free to be guided by their own values as to their ranking (more on this below). However, the one thing we do ask [given this is to be an ALL-TIME list] is that you consider ALL players from all eras of BAA/NBA/ABA history.

I know there are a few individuals who only rank players post-merger or only back to some other arbitrary cut-off in time. For the purposes of this project, that is simply inadequate. We ask that you familiarize yourself [to the best of your ability] with players from all eras (going back as far as the BAA), and from the ABA and '47-'49 NBL as well, so that you can make educated speculations on the appropriate rank of players in an “all-time” sense.

If you do not feel up to this task, we ask that you be up front about this and refrain from voting in the project (though please still participate in the discussion where you are comfortable). We ask this to avoid an excess of bias AGAINST older eras/players.

NOTE (because it was asked about): highschool, college, international play, and NBL (or other barn-storming leagues) prior to '47 are NOT to be considered. This perhaps undermines the premise of "all-time", but it has been tradition that we're talking about the greatest in NBA/ABA/BAA [and corresponding NBL years] history.

Given we are free to establish our own criteria, please be aware as we move thru this project that the criteria of other posters will often differ from your own. As such, there isn’t always a “right and wrong” to every question…...just differing value systems. Please hold that in mind and be respectful to one and other.

If you’re going to participate, I would like it if you would take a little time [if you haven’t already done so] to outline your criteria in this thread:

Official Criteria Thread

That way, anyone you are debating with/against can at least get an idea of where you’re coming from.

While the resulting list is always a big curiosity for me, too, it’s the discussion that I hope we can make vibrant, textured, and useful for future reference.


BASIC PROTOCOL (for those new to these project)
*We will start shortly after the conclusion of the 2020 NBA Finals. This project will run well into the next season, but for active players you are to ONLY consider what has taken place up thru the end of the 2019-20 season.

**We vote for one position/rank at a time, starting with the #1 thread, and proceeding to #100.

***Each thread will be open for approximately 48 hours (occasionally longer as circumstance may dictate, especially if there's a need of a runoff vote). [If you do the math, you realize that means this project will take 7-8 months to complete; it takes serious dedication to consistently contribute from start to finish.]

****You MUST provide some arguments/reasoning in support of your vote for it to be counted. That reasoning must pass a minimum standard of relevance or validity---->pretty easy bar to clear. As long as you're not doing something completely mindless and infantile [like basing your order strictly on # of All-Star selections] or something super extraneous [like basing it on which players you enjoyed watching the most], you'll be fine.
That reasoning must also pass a minimum standard of volume of content. You don't need to write a novel, but a single line may be deemed insufficient [particularly if the one line is particularly light on content or relevance].
e.g. Something like "1-time scoring champ" as the sole argument provided is unlikely to get a pass. You would be asked to dig a little deeper, and failing to do so prior to the deadline will result in your vote not being counted (with rare exception).

*****You are allowed to change your vote if you feel compelled to do so. Generally speaking it probably creates the least confusion/mistakes in counting votes if you change your ORIGINAL vote post, and then just give the chair a heads-up about it.

EDIT (12/6/20, as result of #26 thread):
Moving forward, I want to make sure everyone knows EXACTLY what to expect in a future contentious vote; so below is a flow-chart (which is consistent with precedent that has already occurred in this project):

1) We start with ranked vote system (RVS) like we've been doing with three ordered picks. If a majority winner or **default victory is NOT obtained by a single player with this method.....

2) ....we go to Condorcet method [of the "finalist" players] among the original counted voters to determine a winner. BUT we will wait no longer than 24 hours after the original deadline to hear from everyone (and there's no mystery to figuring if you're one of the people I need to hear from: it's easy enough for any of you to tell without my asking each of you [if two or more of the three "finalists" were not on your original vote post, I don't know what your position is on them]). (And as per OP of #60 thread, I am tabulating the length of time anyone holds up the project by not providing said information in advance; anyone who crossed 120 hours of delay time with have voting privileges suspended).

IF the Condorcet method yields a tie OR I do not hear from every original voter wrt his player hierarchy within 24 hours of the original deadline and the tabulated Condorcet results still indicate undecided (i.e. that it could go either way if all votes were in).....

3) .....we will go to a "sudden death" 24-hour [maximum] runoff, wherein the first finalist to receive [at least] TWO new votes [which can come from one of the original Condorcet hold-outs] AND be in the lead by Condorcet method (including BOTH original voters and runoff voters) will be awarded the spot. If 24 hours transpire with these criteria having not been met, we simply go with the Condorcet leader.
Provision A: if NO new votes are received within the first 12 hours of runoff OR a player still has a Condorcet lead of 2 or more votes after 12 hours, we will cut the runoff short and declare the Condorcet leader the winner.
Provision B: if applicable, the original non-majority "default winner" will be awarded the spot in the event that it is a Condorcet tie when the runoff period times out.
Provision C (added 4/13/21, to avoid fruitless delays): If, while validating a "default winner" via Condorcet, one of the challengers is found to have a Condorcet lead of 3 [or more] votes, the default winner will be eliminated, and the Condorcet leader will be awarded the spot [reason: with limited participation in late stages of project, it is assumed a deficit of 3+ votes is too large (realistically impossible) to overcome].
Provision D (5/1/21): In the event that there are MORE THAN ONE challengers with a 3+ Condorcet lead on the default winner, we will look at all-around Condorcet findings between those two [or more] challengers to decide the winner among them (as per flow-chart shown in post 15 of #86 thread).

**All default victories will be "validity checked" via the Condorcet method. As long as the default victor does NOT lose to one of the other finalists via Condorcet, the default victory will be upheld, and he will be awarded the spot.
IF, otoh, he loses to one [or more] competitors via Condorcet method, we will enter a "sudden death" runoff that follows the same rules as indicated in #3 above (except for conditions noted in "Provision C" above).


EDIT: Additional protocol details listed in post 15 of #86 thread.



TWO NEW ANNOUNCEMENTS (from #60 thread onward):
1) I'm sorry to do this, but we're running into so many delays and in danger of not finishing before the conclusion of the 2021 season......so to facilitate fewer unnecessary delays in the project, I am tentatively instituting a rule by which any poster who has [cumulatively] held up the project by 120+ hours (5 days) will be suspended from the voter pool for 5 threads. Upon his return from suspension, if he again holds up the project by >12 hours EVEN ONCE or an additional 24 hours cumulatively, he will be suspended an additional 5 threads. Upon return from the 2nd suspension, any ONE delay of 12+ hours or 24 hours cumulative will be met with a permanent elimination from the voter panel.
I have done a rough audit of all previous threads to see how many hours members of the panel have held things up. Anyone who wishes to know where his total hours is presently may PM me. There are a couple of posters who are dangerously close to the 120-hour threshold.
To avoid being the one who holds things up: just be proactive. Numerous posters are doing so and giving extensive lists including anyone with traction--->anyone voted for last thread is a good bet; anyone with multiple 2nd/3rd votes is also a good one to include; beyond that, just take 2 minutes toward the end of the 48-hour period to see who is gaining traction. It's not a lot being asked.

2) Also to facilitate speedier conclusions to threads [and noting runoff participation is often lacking at this stage]: any runoff that is going for 12 hours with NO runoff votes cast OR has gone 12+ hours and a candidate still maintains a 2+ vote lead over other finalists via Condorcet, will be ended and we will go with the Condorcet leader as the winner.
All-around Condorcet leader will be used to determine victor in the event that runoff criteria are not met after 24 hours, too.


*** "new votes" must come from posters who have previously been established on the voter panel [even if they haven't participated in awhile]. i.e. Brand new voices will not be allowed to jump in and decide the spot.

****In the event that these runoff criteria have NOT been satisfied within 24 hours of the start of the runoff, the Condorcet winner at the time the clock runs out will take the spot (or potentially will eliminate one or more contestants in a multiplayer runoff, and continue a second runoff between the two remaining, as may be appropriate based on Condorcet count).[/size][/color]
EDIT (2/21/21): To effect speedier conclusions to threads where runoff participation is lacking--->if a runoff has been in effect for 12 hours with NO runoff votes cast OR if the runoff has been in effect for 12 hours and one candidate still has a Condorcet lead of 2+ over all other finalists, we will end runoff and go with the Condorcet leader as the winner.

******We (the moderators) will be watching closely for any evidence of collusion or “manipulation” of the vote. If we become suspicious an individual is participating in this manner, he or she may be removed from the voter panel, pending further investigation and/or trial period. EDIT: those guilty of any other general misbehavior may also be removed from the voter panel.


SPECIFIC VOTE/BALLOT METHOD
Ranked Vote System
This is somewhat similar to a Ballot System in that you'll declare a 1st choice AND a 2nd choice (possibly even a third???).
On the initial count ONLY the 1st choices are added up. If no player has the majority of the vote----NOT just the lead, but an actual majority of ALL votes----then the player(s) with the LEAST number of votes are eliminated from contention. The "2nd choice" votes of those posters [who voted for the player(s) who were just eliminated] are then applied to any of the other existing candidates [the remaining players who received 1st-choice votes] as applicable. If that still does not yield a majority for someone, the next lowest score is eliminated (and 2nd choice votes again transferred). Lather, rinse, repeat until a majority is reached for someone.


I think that’s about it. Again, if you want to vote, please make your request here. Any questions, concerns, etc you may have, now is the time to ask as well.

Voter Panel
trex_8063
Doctor MJ
876Stephen
Dutchball97
penbeast0

Odinn21
bidofo
Jaivl
HeartBreakKid
Whopper_Sr

LA Bird
eminence
limbo
DQuinn1575

sansterre
ZeppelinPage
scabbarista
PaulieWal
Clyde Frazier

Ainosterhaspie
drza
Dr Positivity
Texas Chuck
Hornet Mania

Baski
lebron3-14-3
Joao Saraiva
2klegend
SHAQ32

Blackmill
Cavsfansince84
Eddy_JukeZ
90sAllDecade
Franco

RSCD3_
Tim Lehrbach
TrueLAfan
O_6
Moonbeam

PistolPeteJR
ardee
Gregoire
Matzer
freethedevil

mailmp
ccameron
iggymcfrack
euroleague
Joe Malburg

sansterre
DCasey91
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Re: RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project/List 

Post#2 » by Doctor MJ » Tue Oct 6, 2020 9:16 pm

I'm in!
Hey: With what's going on in the world, my fuse is shorter than it used to be, and it's leading my lose my cool and then go on self-imposed breaks from things (such as RealGM). Please try to keep it civil, and I'll be looking to do the same.
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Re: RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project/List 

Post#3 » by 876Stephen » Tue Oct 6, 2020 9:28 pm

Let’s do it
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Re: RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project/List 

Post#4 » by Dutchball97 » Tue Oct 6, 2020 9:30 pm

Yeah count me in.
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Re: RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project/List 

Post#5 » by penbeast0 » Tue Oct 6, 2020 9:32 pm

I have a desire to vote.
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Re: RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project/List 

Post#6 » by Odinn21 » Tue Oct 6, 2020 9:47 pm

I'm in as well.
The issue with per75 numbers;
36pts on 27 fga/9 fta in 36 mins, does this mean he'd keep up the efficiency to get 48pts on 36fga/12fta in 48 mins?
The answer; NO. He's human, not a linearly working machine.
Per75 is efficiency rate, not actual production.
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Re: RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project/List 

Post#7 » by Bidofo » Tue Oct 6, 2020 10:03 pm

I'd like to vote this project.
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Re: RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project/List 

Post#8 » by Jaivl » Tue Oct 6, 2020 10:12 pm

Truth be told, I grew tired of the last top 100 very quickly. But let's do it!
Maf wrote:I'd undestand if anyone had KG outside top ten PF's. Having him top five all-time? Often I jokingly rank Kyle Korver as the GOAT but I never try to fake serious discussion about it.

ShawnKemp96 wrote:Infact he made a lot more steals than the statisticians think.
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Re: RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project/List 

Post#9 » by trex_8063 » Tue Oct 6, 2020 10:13 pm

Jaivl wrote:Truth be told, I grew tired of the last top 100 very quickly. But let's do it!


Commitment issues. So typical :wink: .
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"The fact that a proposition is absurd has never hindered those who wish to believe it." -Edward Rutherfurd
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Re: RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project/List 

Post#10 » by HeartBreakKid » Tue Oct 6, 2020 11:06 pm

I jumped in last time when the project was running out of steam toward the end ;). So I'll certainly be around.
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Re: RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project/List 

Post#11 » by Jaivl » Tue Oct 6, 2020 11:20 pm

trex_8063 wrote:
Jaivl wrote:Truth be told, I grew tired of the last top 100 very quickly. But let's do it!


Commitment issues. So typical :wink: .

If I remember correctly it was more due to certain attitudes, but yeah, that too.
Maf wrote:I'd undestand if anyone had KG outside top ten PF's. Having him top five all-time? Often I jokingly rank Kyle Korver as the GOAT but I never try to fake serious discussion about it.

ShawnKemp96 wrote:Infact he made a lot more steals than the statisticians think.
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Re: RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project/List 

Post#12 » by trex_8063 » Tue Oct 6, 2020 11:41 pm

I'll start adding names to the voter list soon, but I need input on which of the three voting protocols people would like to go with.

Personally, I'm pretty open to any of them, although if we go with the ballot method I will [strongly] suggest that the point weighting be just 3, 2, 1 (reduces how much people can "swing" the vote if attempting to do so).
"Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience." -George Carlin

"The fact that a proposition is absurd has never hindered those who wish to believe it." -Edward Rutherfurd
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Re: RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project/List 

Post#13 » by Odinn21 » Tue Oct 6, 2020 11:50 pm

trex_8063 wrote:I'll start adding names to the voter list soon, but I need input on which of the three voting protocols people would like to go with.

Personally, I'm pretty open to any of them, although if we go with the ballot method I will [strongly] suggest that the point weighting be just 3, 2, 1 (reduces how much people can "swing" the vote if attempting to do so).

I think #3 is the least susceptible method to manipulate. So, I'd say #3 is the best.

One suggestion, never give us an update on the scoreboard. If anyone wants to know, they can count it themselves.
The issue with per75 numbers;
36pts on 27 fga/9 fta in 36 mins, does this mean he'd keep up the efficiency to get 48pts on 36fga/12fta in 48 mins?
The answer; NO. He's human, not a linearly working machine.
Per75 is efficiency rate, not actual production.
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Re: RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project/List 

Post#14 » by HeartBreakKid » Tue Oct 6, 2020 11:54 pm

The 2017 version was option number 3 right? I thought that was pretty good.

Definitely not option number one, I'd be voting half the project trying to get some jabroni in 40 spots too early. :P That option actually turned me off to the earlier versions of this project.
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Re: RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project/List 

Post#15 » by Whopper_Sr » Wed Oct 7, 2020 12:05 am

I'd like to join and the ballot system worked quite well for the 2017 project so I'll vote for that option.
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Re: RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project/List 

Post#16 » by LA Bird » Wed Oct 7, 2020 12:19 am

Here to be in the voter panel.

trex_8063 wrote:I'll start adding names to the voter list soon, but I need input on which of the three voting protocols people would like to go with.

I would prefer option 3 but with at least 3 ranked choices. With only an alternative choice, there were a lot of ghost votes that were wasted when the scores were tallied up in the last top 100 project.

Option 2 is the worst since you can stack the deck against a player too easily. For example, let's imagine there are two players close together in the lead for a round. If you really want your candidate to win, you can just snub the other player of a #2 and #3 vote to artificially widen the point totals. With option 1 and 3, you can't do any damage to a player you are not voting for.
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Re: RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project/List 

Post#17 » by eminence » Wed Oct 7, 2020 12:55 am

Joining in, and agreeing that option 3 is best for voting. If too much just go option 1, don't do option #2.
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Re: RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project/List 

Post#18 » by trex_8063 » Wed Oct 7, 2020 12:55 am

Odinn21 wrote:I think #2 is the least susceptible method to manipulate. So, I'd say #2 is the best.


As mentioned, method #2 actually gives the MOST opportunity to massage or manipulate the result. Not only can one support his primary candidate [and deny a vote to someone he DOESN'T want to get the spot], he can lend support/points to two OTHER candidates to help "crowd out" the guy he doesn't want to win it.
Of if his preferred candidate just doesn't have traction yet, he can endeavor to keep the guy he DOESN'T want in by lending support to THREE other candidates who DO have traction.


Whopper_Sr wrote:I'd like to join and the ballot system worked quite well for the 2017 project so I'll vote for that option.


It was actually method #3 that we did last time.
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Re: RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project/List 

Post#19 » by DeKlaw » Wed Oct 7, 2020 12:58 am

I would like to vote.
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Re: RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project/List 

Post#20 » by HeartBreakKid » Wed Oct 7, 2020 12:58 am

I'll vote/suggest option 3.

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