Jordan vs Lebron: when Lebron's value became bigger?

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Jordan vs Lebron: when Lebron's value became bigger? 

Post#1 » by Gregoire » Thu Oct 8, 2020 9:46 am

Let's assume, that LeBron surpassed MJ in overall career value (not necessary he is GOAT or better player, just more wins added) and assume, that peak MJ better than peak LeBron. After it rank their full seasons (or versions) from best to worst:
MJ:
91
92
90
89
93
88
87
96
97
98
85
02
03

LeBron:
13
12
17
16
09
10
18
15
14
20
08
11
19
07
06
05
04

Question: when First time Lebron's value became bigger?
1 best season - MJ better
2 best seasons - MJ
3 best seasons - MJ
4 best seasons - MJ
....
7 best seasons - ?
9 best seasons -?
11 best seasons -?
nate33 wrote:

Yeah, when ever I make all time comparisons, I pretty much ignore the pre-3PT-line era. The game was so different then. It's apples and oranges. Those guys may be better or may be worse, we're never really going to know.
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Re: Jordan vs Lebron: when Lebron's value became bigger? 

Post#2 » by Dutchball97 » Thu Oct 8, 2020 12:49 pm

I don't think LeBron has provided more value in his career than MJ yet.
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Re: Jordan vs Lebron: when Lebron's value became bigger? 

Post#3 » by Heej » Thu Oct 8, 2020 12:52 pm

LeBron first peaked higher than Jordan in 2016 imo. I'm taking second stint Cavs LeBron over every version of both players
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Re: Jordan vs Lebron: when Lebron's value became bigger? 

Post#4 » by Jim Naismith » Thu Oct 8, 2020 1:36 pm

Gregoire wrote:Let's assume, that LeBron surpassed MJ in overall career value (not necessary he is GOAT or better player, just more wins added)


Why wins added, and not championships added?
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Re: Jordan vs Lebron: when Lebron's value became bigger? 

Post#5 » by Jordan Syndrome » Thu Oct 8, 2020 1:39 pm

Jim Naismith wrote:
Gregoire wrote:Let's assume, that LeBron surpassed MJ in overall career value (not necessary he is GOAT or better player, just more wins added)


Why wins added, and not championships added?


Does LeBron get credit for "Championships added" in 2009, 2010, 2014, 2015, 2017 and 2018 when he was arguably the best player in the league and the player who, single handedly, increased your championship odds the most out of any one player?
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Re: Jordan vs Lebron: when Lebron's value became bigger? 

Post#6 » by Jim Naismith » Thu Oct 8, 2020 1:46 pm

Jordan Syndrome wrote:
Jim Naismith wrote:
Gregoire wrote:Let's assume, that LeBron surpassed MJ in overall career value (not necessary he is GOAT or better player, just more wins added)


Why wins added, and not championships added?


Does LeBron get credit for "Championships added" in 2009, 2010, 2014, 2015, 2017 and 2018 when he was arguably the best player in the league and the player who, single handedly, increased your championship odds the most out of any one player?


Yes, but only if Jordan gets the same credit for 1988, 1989, 1990.
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Re: Jordan vs Lebron: when Lebron's value became bigger? 

Post#7 » by Firebird1 » Thu Oct 8, 2020 1:48 pm

Jim Naismith wrote:
Gregoire wrote:Let's assume, that LeBron surpassed MJ in overall career value (not necessary he is GOAT or better player, just more wins added)


Why wins added, and not championships added?
u win championships with a stacked team in basketball n that has never been more apparent than with the 90s bulls.. :rofl:

what did jordon win in the 80s again?

oh thats right...

1-9


lets face reality... jordon had a great defensive cast and one of the GOAT coaches..
His Airness and King James 8-)
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Re: Jordan vs Lebron: when Lebron's value became bigger? 

Post#8 » by Jordan Syndrome » Thu Oct 8, 2020 1:49 pm

Jim Naismith wrote:
Jordan Syndrome wrote:
Jim Naismith wrote:
Why wins added, and not championships added?


Does LeBron get credit for "Championships added" in 2009, 2010, 2014, 2015, 2017 and 2018 when he was arguably the best player in the league and the player who, single handedly, increased your championship odds the most out of any one player?


Yes, but only if Jordan gets the same credit for 1988, 1989, 1990.


Of course he does. Why would he not?
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Re: Jordan vs Lebron: when Lebron's value became bigger? 

Post#9 » by Jim Naismith » Thu Oct 8, 2020 1:54 pm

Firebird1 wrote:
Jim Naismith wrote:
Gregoire wrote:Let's assume, that LeBron surpassed MJ in overall career value (not necessary he is GOAT or better player, just more wins added)


Why wins added, and not championships added?
u win championships with a stacked team in basketball n that has never been more apparent than with the 90s bulls.. :rofl:

what did jordon win in the 80s again?

oh thats right...

1-9


lets face reality... jordon had a great defensive cast and one of the GOAT coaches..


1991 Bulls stacked? With just one all-star (Jordan) and one all-NBA player (Jordan).

https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_1991.html
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Re: Jordan vs Lebron: when Lebron's value became bigger? 

Post#10 » by Ambrose » Thu Oct 8, 2020 1:59 pm

Through 11 seasons they are pretty close. LeBron blows MJ away after that. So I'll say 12.
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Re: Jordan vs Lebron: when Lebron's value became bigger? 

Post#11 » by Firebird1 » Thu Oct 8, 2020 2:26 pm

Jim Naismith wrote:
Firebird1 wrote:
Jim Naismith wrote:
Why wins added, and not championships added?
u win championships with a stacked team in basketball n that has never been more apparent than with the 90s bulls.. :rofl:

what did jordon win in the 80s again?

oh thats right...

1-9


lets face reality... jordon had a great defensive cast and one of the GOAT coaches..


1991 Bulls stacked? With just one all-star (Jordan) and one all-NBA player (Jordan).

https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_1991.html


keep saying that... lol

jordan had pip, Rodman, grant, Kukoc, n plenty other good role players that contributed 2 the bulls 6 rings.

not 2 mention phil freaking jackson...
His Airness and King James 8-)
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Re: Jordan vs Lebron: when Lebron's value became bigger? 

Post#12 » by homecourtloss » Thu Oct 8, 2020 2:48 pm

Jim Naismith wrote:
Firebird1 wrote:
Jim Naismith wrote:
Why wins added, and not championships added?
u win championships with a stacked team in basketball n that has never been more apparent than with the 90s bulls.. :rofl:

what did jordon win in the 80s again?

oh thats right...

1-9


lets face reality... jordon had a great defensive cast and one of the GOAT coaches..


1991 Bulls stacked? With just one all-star (Jordan) and one all-NBA player (Jordan).

https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_1991.html


The NBA didn’t have the type of talent you see in today’s game back then even with fewer teams with every team having some talent. Having two top 10 players made you relatively stacked. You have players from everywhere now in the NBA so you can’t compare “stackedness” to today. In 1992, Magic Johnson basically implied that Pippen and Jordan were the best players in the world (yeah, yeah, I know—Magic being Magic calling a game but he had ultimate respect for Pippens overall game given how he defended him in 1991).

1992 and 1993 Knicks had one star and took the Bulls to 7 games in 1992 (point differential exactly zero) and were up 2-0 with a very winnable game 5 that they lost. Now imagine those Knicks team with Curry in there. I don’t think Bulls win either series. And that’s what LeBron was up against with the juggernaut teams he played.
OdomFan wrote:I'd rather have Ray Allen on my team [over Curry].


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Re: Jordan vs Lebron: when Lebron's value became bigger? 

Post#13 » by Owly » Thu Oct 8, 2020 3:10 pm

Jim Naismith wrote:
Firebird1 wrote:
Jim Naismith wrote:
Why wins added, and not championships added?
u win championships with a stacked team in basketball n that has never been more apparent than with the 90s bulls.. :rofl:

what did jordon win in the 80s again?

oh thats right...

1-9


lets face reality... jordon had a great defensive cast and one of the GOAT coaches..


1991 Bulls stacked? With just one all-star (Jordan) and one all-NBA player (Jordan).

https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_1991.html

Disregarding "stacked" (a loaded term I'd avoid in general, and wouldn't particularly use here, fwiw) ...

You either don't think Scottie Pippen was an all-star caliber player in 1991 (in general is more pertinent but also deserving of being on that specific roster) or you know that he was and deliberately chose an unrepresentative measure. I guess I hope it's the former.
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Re: Jordan vs Lebron: when Lebron's value became bigger? 

Post#14 » by Jaivl » Thu Oct 8, 2020 3:28 pm

*ehem* Returning to the OP... I agree with both premises, not sure if I agree with the order.

By my estimations, top 6 seasons are very close, top 9 seasons are basically tied, and from there LeBron gains a bigger and bigger edge.
Maf wrote:I'd undestand if anyone had KG outside top ten PF's. Having him top five all-time? Often I jokingly rank Kyle Korver as the GOAT but I never try to fake serious discussion about it.

ShawnKemp96 wrote:Infact he made a lot more steals than the statisticians think.
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Re: Jordan vs Lebron: when Lebron's value became bigger? 

Post#15 » by 70sFan » Thu Oct 8, 2020 3:47 pm

Jaivl wrote:*ehem* Returning to the OP... I agree with both premises, not sure if I agree with the order.

By my estimations, top 6 seasons are very close, top 9 seasons are basically tied, and from there LeBron gains a bigger and bigger edge.

I agree, to me top 10 seasons are tied and James has considerable edge after that. My order would look probably like this:

1991 vs 2013
1990 vs 2012
1992 vs 2016
1989 vs 2017
1993 vs 2014
1988 vs 2009
1996 vs 2018
1987 vs 2010
1997 vs 2020
1998 vs 2015
1985 vs 2011
1995 vs 2008
1986 vs 2007
2002 vs 2006
2003 vs 2019
-- vs 2005
-- vs 2004

That's why I have James over MJ on my all-time list.
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Re: Jordan vs Lebron: when Lebron's value became bigger? 

Post#16 » by O_6 » Thu Oct 8, 2020 4:23 pm

MJ:
91
90
92
89
93
88
96
97
98
87
85
02
03

LeBron:
13
12
17
16
09
10
18
14
20
15
08
11
07
06
19
05
04

I didn't go crazy with making sure I had every year of both players' careers ordered 100% correctly, but I tried to rank it how I see it.

Question: when First time Lebron's value became bigger?
1 best season - MJ ('91 is the GOAT peak imo)
2 best seasons - MJ
3 best seasons - MJ
4 best seasons - MJ ('89-'92 is the GOAT 4 year stretch imo)
5 best seasons - MJ
6 best seasons - MJ
7 best seasons - MJ (LeBron getting closer)
8 best seasons - MJ/LeBron toss-up (slight edge to MJ)
9 best seasons - MJ/LeBron toss-up (slight edge to MJ)
10 best seasons - MJ/LeBron toss-up (slight edge to MJ)
11 best seasons - MJ/LeBron toss-up (50/50, basically equal)
12 best seasons - LeBron/MJ toss-up (slight edge to LeBron)
13 best seasons - LeBron
14 best seasons - LeBron
15 best seasons - LeBron
16 best seasons - LeBron (by a very clear margin at this point)
17 best seasons - LeBron

I still have MJ as my GOAT, but that's because I value his best as as clearly the best in league history. I just find MJ's offensive game to be flawless in a way that no one else really compares, including LeBron. However, when it comes to a basic "Career Wins Added" type of method then I think it's safe to say that Kareem/LeBron and maybe a couple others are ahead of MJ due to longevity.

As someone mentioned above, I believe a "Championships Added" sort of method (like ElGee's CORP) would lead to a closer result with MJ doing relatively better than the "Wins Added" method due to the top seasons being valued more.
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Re: Jordan vs Lebron: when Lebron's value became bigger? 

Post#17 » by Odinn21 » Thu Oct 8, 2020 5:47 pm

When I see the question, I assumed chronologically.

Jordan had 10 prime seasons from 1986-87 to 1997-98.
James had 10 prime seasons on that level from 2008-09 to 2017-18.

Jordan's rookie season and Washington season are the remaining season for him.

I'm not particularly big on James' 2006-07 or 2007-08 season. Though before reaching his prime, James had more in his career than Jordan.

2018-19 didn't go well enough for James and I'm going to agree with wins-added and championships-added comments made so far.

So, in the end I think I'm going to say this is the season that's James' career value surpassed Jordan's one for sure. With 2018-19 being so little of a value, Jordan and James were on par at the end of 2017-18 season. The debate could go both ways. Now, it's more definite that going in James' way.
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Re: Jordan vs Lebron: when Lebron's value became bigger? 

Post#18 » by therealbig3 » Thu Oct 8, 2020 6:03 pm

Even though 05-08 James is clearly a level below his "true" prime...he was still a top 10 player in all of those seasons, if not top 5. That's still a legitimately great player that can be a championship-level 1st option. I disagree with totally disregarding those seasons when it comes to career value.

For example, LeBron's 10 best seasons: 09, 10, 12-18, 20

Jordan's: 87-93, 96-98

Jordan's career value after that is with regards to 85 (rookie year), barely playing in 86 and 95, and then 02 and 03 (two Wizards years).

LeBron's remaining career value is a year where he was still probably the best player in the league (11) and a 4 year stretch where he was a top 10 player in the league, if not top 5 in a couple of those (05-08). He wasn't that much worse than Kobe Bryant during that stretch, who was at his absolute peak for most of those years. And then he also has an injured season in 19 that doesn't add much.

A top 10 player can be a legitimate championship-level 1st option. So LeBron has 5 years in addition to his 10 year prime where he could still lead a team to a championship. Jordan was not a championship-level 1st option in any of his remaining years outside of his top 10.

And yeah, I agree, I think their top 10 seasons put up next to each other are very comparable. I think Jordan was the slightly better player at his absolute best, but LeBron just has more prime-level years than Jordan. Ditto with Kareem.

Blasphemous for me to have put Jordan anywhere but #1 when I was growing up, but objectively, I personally can't see a good reason to not have Kareem and LeBron over him, and I'd consider Russell as well.
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Re: Jordan vs Lebron: when Lebron's value became bigger? 

Post#19 » by therealbig3 » Thu Oct 8, 2020 6:04 pm

LeBron's 19 season is still probably more valuable than either Jordan's 86 season or Jordan's 95 season.
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Re: Jordan vs Lebron: when Lebron's value became bigger? 

Post#20 » by Jordan Syndrome » Thu Oct 8, 2020 6:11 pm

Odinn21 wrote:When I see the question, I assumed chronologically.

Jordan had 10 prime seasons from 1986-87 to 1997-98.
James had 10 prime seasons on that level from 2008-09 to 2017-18.

Jordan's rookie season and Washington season are the remaining season for him.

I'm not particularly big on James' 2006-07 or 2007-08 season. Though before reaching his prime, James had more in his career than Jordan.

2018-19 didn't go well enough for James and I'm going to agree with wins-added and championships-added comments made so far.

So, in the end I think I'm going to say this is the season that's James' career value surpassed Jordan's one for sure. With 2018-19 being so little of a value, Jordan and James were on par at the end of 2017-18 season. The debate could go both ways. Now, it's more definite that going in James' way.


You dont think LeBrons 2007 or 2008 campaigns add any value?

2007 includes a 5th place finish in MVP, 2nd in total WS, 5.9 OBPM, 1st in league in VORP.

2008 includes a 4th place finish in MVP, 2nd in total WS, 8.2 OBPM which is 1st in league.

I would also add I believe 1985 Jordan has some real value here as a season and 2006 as well for LeBron.

I understand they may not be "prime" seasons, but they are seasons in which clear value is added both by "championships added" and "wins added".

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