All-NBA Teams Project: 1996-00 All-NBA First Team

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All-NBA Teams Project: 1996-00 All-NBA First Team 

Post#1 » by 70sFan » Wed Oct 14, 2020 3:06 pm

Here is the link to the project thread:

viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1998780

Pick the first team from 1995/96 to 1999/00 season. Explain all your choices at least in short description.

Rules:

1. Include both RS and playoffs (it's not RS award like in real life).

2. You can pick only one season per player - for example, you can't use 2016 and 2018 James in different teams.

3. Votes will be counted per player, not per version of player. I think that otherwise, we'll have players with multiple great seaosns (like James or Kareem for example) unfairly downgraded.

4. We vote in a G/G/F/F/C system.

If you want to participate, just let me know. I'm trying to get consistent list of voters.

Spoiler:
Odinn21 wrote:I'm in.

Doctor MJ wrote:Sounds fun. I'm in.

Dutchball97 wrote:I'm in.

PistolPeteJR wrote:I'm in lol. :D

Ryoga Hibiki wrote:yes

Orin wrote:I would love to participate

ardee wrote:Sure

Heej wrote:Interesting I'm in

clearlynotjesse wrote:I wanna play

E-Balla wrote:I'm down but my participation won't be super consistent like usual, sorry for that.

Eddy_JukeZ wrote:I'm in.

SinceGatlingWasARookie wrote:I can participate, but not reliably
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Re: All-NBA Teams Project: 1996-00 All-NBA First Team 

Post#2 » by Odinn21 » Wed Oct 14, 2020 3:15 pm

I think most of them will be self explanatory. Let me know if explanations are still needed for my vote to count.

C: 2000 Shaquille O'Neal
F: 1999 Tim Duncan
F: 1998 Karl Malone
G: 1997 Michael Jordan
G: 2000 Gary Payton

2000 Payton, 1999 Kidd, 1996 Penny, 1998 Tim Hardaway, 1998/2000 Miller, 1997 Stockton.
This is a quite the company to pick from. I think 2000 Payton's performance and impact on overall were the best of the of the lot.

---

Edit;
My short list for the 2nd team and the 3rd team
C: 1996 Robinson, 1997 Ewing, 1999/2000 Mourning, 1997 Olajuwon, 1999 Mutombo
F: 1996 Barkley, 2000 Garnett, 1997 Hill, 1996 Kemp, 1996 Pippen, 1996 Rodman
G: 1999 Kidd, 1996 Penny, 1998 T. Hardaway, 1998/2000 Miller, 1997 Stockton
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Re: All-NBA Teams Project: 1996-00 All-NBA First Team 

Post#3 » by 70sFan » Wed Oct 14, 2020 3:18 pm

My votes:

G: 1995/96 Penny Hardaway
G: 1995/96 Michael Jordan
F: 1997/98 Karl Malone
F: 1998/99 Tim Duncan
C: 1999/00 Shaquille O'Neal


Penny Hardaway - I'm not super connected to this choice, but he was fantastic when Shaq missed games and carried that Magic team to very high heights. He didn't play well against Chicago Bulls in playoffs, but what perimeter player would do better against peak Bulls? Not many.

I considered 1997 Stockton and 2000 Payton, but decided to pick the best offensive player here. Reggie Miller is also a strong candidate.

Michael Jordan - clear choice, both with player and the season.

Karl Malone - I think it's quite easy choice. Forward position is stacked in this era, but I don't see post peak Barkley or pre-peak KG as better players than him. Pippen and Hill aren't on peak Malone level either.

Tim Duncan - for me it's easy choice, but maybe someone will argue otherwise.

Shaquille O'Neal - another easy choice, but this era will be interesting in 2nd and 3rd team. It's the first era when we have truly great seasons from centers.
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Re: All-NBA Teams Project: 1996-00 All-NBA First Team 

Post#4 » by 70sFan » Wed Oct 14, 2020 3:21 pm

Odinn21 wrote:I think most of them will be self explanatory. Let me know if explanations are still needed for my vote to count.

C: 2000 Shaquille O'Neal
F: 1999 Tim Duncan
F: 1998 Karl Malone
G: 1997 Michael Jordan
G: 2000 Gary Payton

2000 Payton, 1999 Kidd, 1996 Penny, 1998 Tim Hardaway, 1998/2000 Miller, 1997 Stockton.
This is a quite the company to pick from. I think 2000 Payton's performance and impact on overall were the best of the of the lot.

I forgot about Kidd, another player worth consideration (although I'd probably take Payton, Stockton and Miller over him).
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Re: All-NBA Teams Project: 1996-00 All-NBA First Team 

Post#5 » by Ryoga Hibiki » Wed Oct 14, 2020 3:23 pm

I don't see how this is not going be some version of
G: 1996 michael jordon
G: 1996 Gary Payton
F: 1998 Karl Malone
F: 1999 Timmeh
C: 2000 Shaquille O'Neal

I can imagine someone pulling out a different name than Payton, probably 1997 Stockton or 2000 Kidd.
But the other four are going to be unanimous, unless you find fools like that guy who didn't vote for Duncan '07 as center in the 06-10 thread.
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Re: All-NBA Teams Project: 1996-00 All-NBA First Team 

Post#6 » by 70sFan » Wed Oct 14, 2020 3:25 pm

Ryoga Hibiki wrote:I don't see how this is not going be some version of
G: 1996 michael jordon
G: 1996 Gary Payton
F: 1998 Karl Malone
F: 1999 Timmeh
C: 2000 Shaquille O'Neal

I can imagine someone pulling out a different name than Payton, probably 1997 Stockton or 2000 Kidd.
But the other four are going to be unanimous, unless you find fools like that guy who didn't vote for Duncan '07 as center in the 06-10 thread.

Wait, am I a fool because I picked Penny? :D
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Re: All-NBA Teams Project: 1996-00 All-NBA First Team 

Post#7 » by Odinn21 » Wed Oct 14, 2020 3:35 pm

70sFan wrote:
Odinn21 wrote:I think most of them will be self explanatory. Let me know if explanations are still needed for my vote to count.

C: 2000 Shaquille O'Neal
F: 1999 Tim Duncan
F: 1998 Karl Malone
G: 1997 Michael Jordan
G: 2000 Gary Payton

2000 Payton, 1999 Kidd, 1996 Penny, 1998 Tim Hardaway, 1998/2000 Miller, 1997 Stockton.
This is a quite the company to pick from. I think 2000 Payton's performance and impact on overall were the best of the of the lot.

I forgot about Kidd, another player worth consideration (although I'd probably take Payton, Stockton and Miller over him).

I think the 1st team selection is between Payton and Penny.

Surely Penny was better and more impactful offensive players. It's still important that Payton actually matched Penny's offensive production/output though. At least in regular season. And he provided much better defense.
Look at their offensive production (per and obpm for quick look);
1996 Penny 24.6 per & 6.2 obpm in r. season and 24.5 per & 6.9 obpm in playoffs
2000 Payton 23.6 per & 5.8 obpm in r. season and 22.2 per & 4.4 obpm in playoffs

That's why I went with GP.
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Re: All-NBA Teams Project: 1996-00 All-NBA First Team 

Post#8 » by 70sFan » Wed Oct 14, 2020 3:42 pm

Odinn21 wrote:
70sFan wrote:
Odinn21 wrote:I think most of them will be self explanatory. Let me know if explanations are still needed for my vote to count.

C: 2000 Shaquille O'Neal
F: 1999 Tim Duncan
F: 1998 Karl Malone
G: 1997 Michael Jordan
G: 2000 Gary Payton

2000 Payton, 1999 Kidd, 1996 Penny, 1998 Tim Hardaway, 1998/2000 Miller, 1997 Stockton.
This is a quite the company to pick from. I think 2000 Payton's performance and impact on overall were the best of the of the lot.

I forgot about Kidd, another player worth consideration (although I'd probably take Payton, Stockton and Miller over him).

I think the 1st team selection is between Payton and Penny.

Surely Penny was better and more impactful offensive players. It's still important that Payton actually matched Penny's offensive production/output though. At least in regular season. And he provided much better defense.
Look at their offensive production (per and obpm for quick look);
1996 Penny 24.6 per & 6.2 obpm in r. season and 24.5 per & 6.9 obpm in playoffs
2000 Payton 23.6 per & 5.8 obpm in r. season and 22.2 per & 4.4 obpm in playoffs

That's why I went with GP.

I think that Payton is legit option as well, but you have to keep in mind that by 2000 Payton's defense fell off a cliff. Not saying that he was bad (of course he wasn't), but he wasn't shutdown defender he used to be in mid-90s. I'm fine with Payton choice though.

Whoever will get in at guard spot, he'll be probably the weakest 1st team guard of all voted so far. At the same time, center and forward competition looks as strong as ever.
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Re: All-NBA Teams Project: 1996-00 All-NBA First Team 

Post#9 » by Odinn21 » Wed Oct 14, 2020 3:43 pm

70sFan wrote:I think that Payton is legit option as well, but you have to keep in mind that by 2000 Payton's defense fell off a cliff. Not saying that he was bad (of course he wasn't), but he wasn't shutdown defender he used to be in mid-90s. I'm fine with Payton choice though.

Whoever will get in at guard spot, he'll be probably the weakest 1st team guard of all voted so far. At the same time, center and forward competition looks as strong as ever.

Sure, Payton wasn't what he used to be by that point. It's just the gap between him and 1996 Penny on defense was still quite big.
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Re: All-NBA Teams Project: 1996-00 All-NBA First Team 

Post#10 » by Dutchball97 » Wed Oct 14, 2020 3:52 pm

Guard: Michael Jordan, 1995/96 - I think we all know the only debate here is which year to choose.

Guard: John Stockton, 1996/97 - MJ is the only clear choice for guard here. Lots of solid options like Payton, Kidd, Tim Hardaway and Reggie Miller but in the end it came down to Penny and Stockton for me. Both had strong regular seasons with a small edge to Penny, while both also stood out in the post-season but Stockton was at least as good in the play-offs while getting a round further in the play-offs and also being more competitive against the Bulls.

Forward: Karl Malone, 1997/98 - The clear best forward in a pretty weak pool imo.

Forward: Tim Duncan, 1998/99 - Actually had a harder time for this pick than I initially thought I would. Pippen was really good in 95/96 but I think Duncan's role was bigger than Pippen's. Tough one but I'm sure Pippen will get into the second team handily.

Center: Shaquille O'Neal, 1999/00 - Took me even less time to choose than Jordan because in Shaq's case the season choice is crystal clear as well.
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Re: All-NBA Teams Project: 1996-00 All-NBA First Team 

Post#11 » by Jordan Syndrome » Wed Oct 14, 2020 4:05 pm

G: 1996/97 John Stockton
G: 1995/96 Michael Jordan
F: 1996/97 Karl Malone
F: 1998/99 Tim Duncan
C: 1999/00 Shaquille O'Neal
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Re: All-NBA Teams Project: 1996-00 All-NBA First Team 

Post#12 » by Ryoga Hibiki » Wed Oct 14, 2020 4:08 pm

70sFan wrote:
Ryoga Hibiki wrote:I don't see how this is not going be some version of
G: 1996 michael jordon
G: 1996 Gary Payton
F: 1998 Karl Malone
F: 1999 Timmeh
C: 2000 Shaquille O'Neal

I can imagine someone pulling out a different name than Payton, probably 1997 Stockton or 2000 Kidd.
But the other four are going to be unanimous, unless you find fools like that guy who didn't vote for Duncan '07 as center in the 06-10 thread.

Wait, am I a fool because I picked Penny? :D

The other four must be unanimous, of course.
I mentioned that Payton was arguable, Penny would be a good candidate even I am not sure if would pick the 96 version.
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Re: All-NBA Teams Project: 1996-00 All-NBA First Team 

Post#13 » by 70sFan » Wed Oct 14, 2020 4:12 pm

Dutchball97 wrote:Forward: Karl Malone, 1997/98 - The clear best forward in a pretty weak pool imo.


Are you sure it's that weak for forwards? 1999 Duncan is basically a lock in any other team that doesn't include better version of Duncan. Then you have Pippen, Hill, Barkley, Kemp, KG, Sheed. I think it's quite strong competition.
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Re: All-NBA Teams Project: 1996-00 All-NBA First Team 

Post#14 » by Ryoga Hibiki » Wed Oct 14, 2020 4:12 pm

70sFan wrote:
Odinn21 wrote:
70sFan wrote:I forgot about Kidd, another player worth consideration (although I'd probably take Payton, Stockton and Miller over him).

I think the 1st team selection is between Payton and Penny.

Surely Penny was better and more impactful offensive players. It's still important that Payton actually matched Penny's offensive production/output though. At least in regular season. And he provided much better defense.
Look at their offensive production (per and obpm for quick look);
1996 Penny 24.6 per & 6.2 obpm in r. season and 24.5 per & 6.9 obpm in playoffs
2000 Payton 23.6 per & 5.8 obpm in r. season and 22.2 per & 4.4 obpm in playoffs

That's why I went with GP.

I think that Payton is legit option as well, but you have to keep in mind that by 2000 Payton's defense fell off a cliff. Not saying that he was bad (of course he wasn't), but he wasn't shutdown defender he used to be in mid-90s. I'm fine with Payton choice though.

Whoever will get in at guard spot, he'll be probably the weakest 1st team guard of all voted so far. At the same time, center and forward competition looks as strong as ever.

Not sure Malone would have been voted in the 1st any other group.
Not in 01-05, not in 06-10, not in 11-15 and not in 16-20...
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Re: All-NBA Teams Project: 1996-00 All-NBA First Team 

Post#15 » by Ryoga Hibiki » Wed Oct 14, 2020 4:14 pm

Dutchball97 wrote:Guard: Michael Jordan, 1995/96 - I think we all know the only debate here is which year to choose.

Guard: John Stockton, 1996/97 - MJ is the only clear choice for guard here. Lots of solid options like Payton, Kidd, Tim Hardaway and Reggie Miller but in the end it came down to Penny and Stockton for me. Both had strong regular seasons with a small edge to Penny, while both also stood out in the post-season but Stockton was at least as good in the play-offs while getting a round further in the play-offs and also being more competitive against the Bulls.

Forward: Karl Malone, 1997/98 - The clear best forward in a pretty weak pool imo.

Forward: Tim Duncan, 1998/99 - Actually had a harder time for this pick than I initially thought I would. Pippen was really good in 95/96 but I think Duncan's role was bigger than Pippen's. Tough one but I'm sure Pippen will get into the second team handily.

Center: Shaquille O'Neal, 1999/00 - Took me even less time to choose than Jordan because in Shaq's case the season choice is crystal clear as well.

definitely taking Timmeh as the best forward, not even close to me.
Ok, "not even close" might be too much, but between the two there a decent margin, especially considering playoffs performance.
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Re: All-NBA Teams Project: 1996-00 All-NBA First Team 

Post#16 » by 70sFan » Wed Oct 14, 2020 4:16 pm

Ryoga Hibiki wrote:
70sFan wrote:
Ryoga Hibiki wrote:I don't see how this is not going be some version of
G: 1996 michael jordon
G: 1996 Gary Payton
F: 1998 Karl Malone
F: 1999 Timmeh
C: 2000 Shaquille O'Neal

I can imagine someone pulling out a different name than Payton, probably 1997 Stockton or 2000 Kidd.
But the other four are going to be unanimous, unless you find fools like that guy who didn't vote for Duncan '07 as center in the 06-10 thread.

Wait, am I a fool because I picked Penny? :D

The other four must be unanimous, of course.
I mentioned that Payton was arguable, Penny would be a good candidate even I am not sure if would pick the 96 version.

Yeah I thought about 1997 version as well, but he missed a lot of games in that season. Magic played on 52 wins pace with him and on horrible 25 wins without him. He had MVP-level impact in that season and played excellent in playoffs, but 23 missed games is a lot, that's why I decided to go with 1996 version.
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Re: All-NBA Teams Project: 1996-00 All-NBA First Team 

Post#17 » by 70sFan » Wed Oct 14, 2020 4:20 pm

Ryoga Hibiki wrote:
70sFan wrote:
Odinn21 wrote:I think the 1st team selection is between Payton and Penny.

Surely Penny was better and more impactful offensive players. It's still important that Payton actually matched Penny's offensive production/output though. At least in regular season. And he provided much better defense.
Look at their offensive production (per and obpm for quick look);
1996 Penny 24.6 per & 6.2 obpm in r. season and 24.5 per & 6.9 obpm in playoffs
2000 Payton 23.6 per & 5.8 obpm in r. season and 22.2 per & 4.4 obpm in playoffs

That's why I went with GP.

I think that Payton is legit option as well, but you have to keep in mind that by 2000 Payton's defense fell off a cliff. Not saying that he was bad (of course he wasn't), but he wasn't shutdown defender he used to be in mid-90s. I'm fine with Payton choice though.

Whoever will get in at guard spot, he'll be probably the weakest 1st team guard of all voted so far. At the same time, center and forward competition looks as strong as ever.

Not sure Malone would have been voted in the 1st any other group.
Not in 01-05, not in 06-10, not in 11-15 and not in 16-20...

I'd consider him over 2011 Dirk and 2008 Garnett. Not sure if he'd make it over them, but he'd be worth consideration.

We didn't vote for 2016-20 team yet, but it seems that he wouldn't make it over Kawhi/KD either (although it is quite close to me as well).

The point is that Malone played very well in 1998 playoffs and unlike in 1997 (when Stockton was arguably their best player), he actually had to carry singificant load on offensive end. Not to mention that he did remarkable job on Robinson defensively (as usuall) and outplayed Shaq H2H. It was an outlier postseason for him, but he was remarkable.
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Re: All-NBA Teams Project: 1996-00 All-NBA First Team 

Post#18 » by clearlynotjesse » Wed Oct 14, 2020 4:33 pm

G: 1995-96 Michael Jordan

We're already in the Jordan era!

G: 1995-96 Penny Hardaway

If Payton peaked on offense and defense at the same time, I'd go with him. Otherwise, going with a very good season for one of the last post-up guards.

F: 1997-98 Karl Malone

00 KG is right there, but he had one of his worst playoffs while Malone had one of his better ones.


F: 1999-00 Kevin Garnett

Upon further review, switching my vote to KG. His defense and passing, where I think the majority of his value lies, were starting to ramp up. Yeah, the playoff scoring sucked, but it kind of always did. I'll take a young KG at the beginning of a superior prime over Malone at the end of his.

F: 1998-99 Tim Duncan
C: 1999-00 Shaquille O'Neal


No brainers.
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Re: All-NBA Teams Project: 1996-00 All-NBA First Team 

Post#19 » by Dutchball97 » Wed Oct 14, 2020 4:37 pm

70sFan wrote:
Dutchball97 wrote:Forward: Karl Malone, 1997/98 - The clear best forward in a pretty weak pool imo.


Are you sure it's that weak for forwards? 1999 Duncan is basically a lock in any other team that doesn't include better version of Duncan. Then you have Pippen, Hill, Barkley, Kemp, KG, Sheed. I think it's quite strong competition.


Malone, Duncan and Pippen are strong options but I think they're more on par with 2nd team forwards from previous years than the 1st teamers (excluding 08 KG, who isn't a strong 1st team choice himself).

Sheed and Kemp are solid but I'm pretty confident they wouldn't make any of the other teams at all.

Hill, Barkley and KG all had great regular seasons that ended in rather uninspiring 1st round exits.

It's not terribly weak but a bit down compared to the previous era teams we did.
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Re: All-NBA Teams Project: 1996-00 All-NBA First Team 

Post#20 » by Ryoga Hibiki » Wed Oct 14, 2020 4:37 pm

70sFan wrote:
Ryoga Hibiki wrote:
70sFan wrote:I think that Payton is legit option as well, but you have to keep in mind that by 2000 Payton's defense fell off a cliff. Not saying that he was bad (of course he wasn't), but he wasn't shutdown defender he used to be in mid-90s. I'm fine with Payton choice though.

Whoever will get in at guard spot, he'll be probably the weakest 1st team guard of all voted so far. At the same time, center and forward competition looks as strong as ever.

Not sure Malone would have been voted in the 1st any other group.
Not in 01-05, not in 06-10, not in 11-15 and not in 16-20...

I'd consider him over 2011 Dirk and 2008 Garnett. Not sure if he'd make it over them, but he'd be worth consideration.

We didn't vote for 2016-20 team yet, but it seems that he wouldn't make it over Kawhi/KD either (although it is quite close to me as well).

The point is that Malone played very well in 1998 playoffs and unlike in 1997 (when Stockton was arguably their best player), he actually had to carry singificant load on offensive end. Not to mention that he did remarkable job on Robinson defensively (as usuall) and outplayed Shaq H2H. It was an outlier postseason for him, but he was remarkable.

Ok, to be honest I would never consider him over 2006 Dirk, 2007 Duncan, 2008 Garnett, 2011 Dirk... I might be biased but I am not a big fan of peak Malone

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