All-NBA Teams Project: 1996-00 All-NBA First Team

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Re: All-NBA Teams Project: 1996-00 All-NBA First Team 

Post#61 » by mailmp » Sun Oct 18, 2020 1:19 pm

Dutchball97 wrote:Your argument is literally that you think boxscore stats have a value of absolutely nothing, while prioritizing MVP votes and anecdotal evidence. You can't be serious, surely?


You cannot be serious that you think a basketball reference visit is liTEraLLy all you need. :roll: I never said box scores mean “literally nothing” — but when you use literally nothing else and do not bother to account for their limits in any way whatsoever, your opinion may as well mean that.

What do you know about what is and isn't established on this forum anyway? You joined 2 days ago.


Might come as a shock that you can read the forums without an account. Incredible, I know. But even going back years, people who refused to go any level beyond PER were at a severe information disadvantage. And doing so in *CURRENT YEAR* seems borderline embarrassing.
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Re: All-NBA Teamt: 1996-00 All-NBA First Team 

Post#62 » by Jordan Syndrome » Sun Oct 18, 2020 1:20 pm

SinceGatlingWasARookie wrote:Best NPI 1999-2000
1 Rodney Rogers, 2 Terry Porter, 3 Bo Outlaw, 4 Shaq
The stat also thinks Derek Fisher is better than Kobe.
The stat thinks Tony Delk is better than Tim Duncan and the stat hates 2000 Karl Malone


What is going on with that stat?
http://ascreamingcomesacrossthecourt.blogspot.com/2014/03/2000-rapm-non-prior-and-prior-informed.html


Temperature doesn't predict snowfall.
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Re: All-NBA Teams Project: 1996-00 All-NBA First Team 

Post#63 » by 70sFan » Sun Oct 18, 2020 1:24 pm

It's the first time I've heard that Payton was percevied as much better than Stockton. Stockton can be sometimes overrated by his assist numbers, but overall he was much better shooter, better floor general and far better passer than Payton. On top of that, I love what he gave Utah defensively and was far more consistent on that end (even if worse overall).

I know that stats doesn't tell the whole story, but there are plenty of non-stats related reasons to pick 1997 Stockton over any version of Gary.
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Re: All-NBA Teams Project: 1996-00 All-NBA First Team 

Post#64 » by mailmp » Sun Oct 18, 2020 1:40 pm

Oh no 70sFan not you too :(

Even if interpreting RAPM data is beyond some people, I will never understand why there is any call to continue to point to BPM and PER when we have a far more rigorous and holistic box-score derivative statistic in PIPM.

And there, from 1996-98, Stockton is +4.3, +3.8, and +4.2. In contrast, from 1996-2000, Gary Payton is +3.93, +4.62, +5.13 (fifth in the league), +2.87, and +5.69 (second in the league), all with higher minutes than Stockton. Stockton gets his usual regular season and low minutes boost, and even then he still cannot really match Payton (save for Payton’s down year in 1999), which is far more reflective of the reality of their positions.

We also have Ben Taylor’s data. Granted you need to pay for that so I know why not everyone uses it, but if you were to find his numbers, you would see 1996-98 Stockton with plus/minus evaluations of 2.75, 2.5, and 2.25, and CORP evaluations of 8.7, 8, and 6.8, versus 1996-2000 Payton with plus/minus evaluations of 3, 3.5, 3.75, 3.25, and 3.25, and CORP evaluations of 8.7, 10.2, 11, 9.3, and 9.1 (he does take a slight portability hit compared to Stockton). There again, we see Payton’s value come through beyond the more inadequate box score metrics like PER.

Just listing out traits like “better shooter” (at low volume and by picking spots so defences are not actually pressured that much) and “more consistent defender” (even though Stockton could never hope to do what Payton did when he was allowed to guard Jordan) is how you end up saying Stockton was better than Nash — not to mention that by similar extension you could argue old Stockton (or more recently, old Manu) was better than the peaks of Westbrook, Rose, Parker...
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Re: All-NBA Teams Project: 1996-00 All-NBA First Team 

Post#65 » by 70sFan » Sun Oct 18, 2020 5:46 pm

mailmp wrote:Oh no 70sFan not you too :(

I didn't say he was better, but I don't see this as anything out of reality.

Just listing out traits like “better shooter” (at low volume and by picking spots so defences are not actually pressured that much)

It's true that Stockton picking spots made him more efficient, but it doesn't change the fact that Stockton was significantly better three point shooter. Payton wasn't good three point shooter even as a roleplayer in 2000s.

and “more consistent defender” (even though Stockton could never hope to do what Payton did when he was allowed to guard Jordan)

It's true, but at the same time Payton could never touch Stockton's help defense because he's just too inconsistent and had bad habits of ball watching.

is how you end up saying Stockton was better than Nash

No, because Nash was better shooter than Stockton and he was also better playmaker.
— not to mention that by similar extension you could argue old Stockton (or more recently, old Manu) was better than the peaks of Westbrook, Rose, Parker...

I think I'd prefer him over them (especially Parker), maybe outside Westbrook absolute best seasons (2016 and 2017). I don't think poor defenders who shoot too much and struggles with turnovers are more valuable than Stockton, even if they can pressure defense more. Neither one is a good option as the leading player and Stockton brings much more as a second best player.
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Re: All-NBA Teams Project: 1996-00 All-NBA First Team 

Post#66 » by 70sFan » Sun Oct 18, 2020 5:53 pm

Official 1996-00 All-NBA First Team

G: 1995/96 Penny Hardaway
G: 1995/96 Michael Jordan
F: 1997/98 Karl Malone
F: 1998/99 Tim Duncan
C: 1999/00 Shaquille O'Neal


Guards:

Michael Jordan 12
Penny Hardaway 6
John Stockton 3
Gary Payton 3

Forwards:

Tim Duncan 12
Karl Malone 9
Kevin Garnett 2
Scottie Pippen 1

Centers:

Shaquille O'Neal 12
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Re: All-NBA Teams Project: 1996-00 All-NBA First Team 

Post#67 » by mitchco » Sun Oct 18, 2020 5:56 pm

This board has selective amnesia when it comes to Payton imo. It should have been clear to anyone watching during the mid to late 90s that as Stockton aged, GP surpassed him as the best PG in the L. Prime Payton dominated the game on both ends of the floor, and he was good/respectable at every aspect of the game. All while never missing games and consistently being a league leader in minutes played.
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Re: All-NBA Teams Project: 1996-00 All-NBA First Team 

Post#68 » by ShotCreator » Sun Oct 18, 2020 6:01 pm

Highly skeptical Malone at the hypothetical SF position would produce better results than putting young KG there over this time period.
Swinging for the fences.
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Re: All-NBA Teams Project: 1996-00 All-NBA First Team 

Post#69 » by Jordan Syndrome » Sun Oct 18, 2020 6:06 pm

ShotCreator wrote:Highly skeptical Malone at the hypothetical SF position would produce better results than putting young KG there over this time period.


That isn't how this works.

It's G,G, F, F and C.
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Re: All-NBA Teams Project: 1996-00 All-NBA First Team 

Post#70 » by 70sFan » Sun Oct 18, 2020 7:40 pm

ShotCreator wrote:Highly skeptical Malone at the hypothetical SF position would produce better results than putting young KG there over this time period.

We're not creating teams and we don't differentiate SF and PF positions.
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Re: All-NBA Teams Project: 1996-00 All-NBA First Team 

Post#71 » by ShotCreator » Sun Oct 18, 2020 7:47 pm

70sFan wrote:
ShotCreator wrote:Highly skeptical Malone at the hypothetical SF position would produce better results than putting young KG there over this time period.

We're not creating teams and we don't differentiate SF and PF positions.

Then why require positions at all?
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Re: All-NBA Teams Project: 1996-00 All-NBA First Team 

Post#72 » by 70sFan » Sun Oct 18, 2020 7:56 pm

ShotCreator wrote:
70sFan wrote:
ShotCreator wrote:Highly skeptical Malone at the hypothetical SF position would produce better results than putting young KG there over this time period.

We're not creating teams and we don't differentiate SF and PF positions.

Then why require positions at all?

Because it's done in the same format as real all-nba teams. You have 2 guard spots, two forward spots and one center spot. This voting doesn't take fit of this team into account - it's just collection of the best players from each era at each position.

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