All-NBA Teams Project: 1996-00 All-NBA First Team

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Re: All-NBA Teams Project: 1996-00 All-NBA First Team 

Post#21 » by Jaivl » Wed Oct 14, 2020 4:45 pm

70sFan wrote:My votes:

G: 1995/96 Penny Hardaway
G: 1995/96 Michael Jordan
F: 1997/98 Karl Malone
F: 1998/99 Tim Duncan
C: 1999/00 Shaquille O'Neal


Penny Hardaway - I'm not super connected to this choice, but he was fantastic when Shaq missed games and carried that Magic team to very high heights. He didn't play well against Chicago Bulls in playoffs, but what perimeter player would do better against peak Bulls? Not many.

I considered 1997 Stockton and 2000 Payton, but decided to pick the best offensive player here. Reggie Miller is also a strong candidate.

Michael Jordan - clear choice, both with player and the season.

Karl Malone - I think it's quite easy choice. Forward position is stacked in this era, but I don't see post peak Barkley or pre-peak KG as better players than him. Pippen and Hill aren't on peak Malone level either.

Tim Duncan - for me it's easy choice, but maybe someone will argue otherwise.

Shaquille O'Neal - another easy choice, but this era will be interesting in 2nd and 3rd team. It's the first era when we have truly great seasons from centers.

These same votes but with 97 Malone.
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Re: All-NBA Teams Project: 1996-00 All-NBA First Team 

Post#22 » by 70sFan » Wed Oct 14, 2020 5:15 pm

Jaivl wrote:
70sFan wrote:My votes:

G: 1995/96 Penny Hardaway
G: 1995/96 Michael Jordan
F: 1997/98 Karl Malone
F: 1998/99 Tim Duncan
C: 1999/00 Shaquille O'Neal


Penny Hardaway - I'm not super connected to this choice, but he was fantastic when Shaq missed games and carried that Magic team to very high heights. He didn't play well against Chicago Bulls in playoffs, but what perimeter player would do better against peak Bulls? Not many.

I considered 1997 Stockton and 2000 Payton, but decided to pick the best offensive player here. Reggie Miller is also a strong candidate.

Michael Jordan - clear choice, both with player and the season.

Karl Malone - I think it's quite easy choice. Forward position is stacked in this era, but I don't see post peak Barkley or pre-peak KG as better players than him. Pippen and Hill aren't on peak Malone level either.

Tim Duncan - for me it's easy choice, but maybe someone will argue otherwise.

Shaquille O'Neal - another easy choice, but this era will be interesting in 2nd and 3rd team. It's the first era when we have truly great seasons from centers.

These same votes but with 97 Malone.

Could you explain why you think that 1997 is better than 1998 for Malone? I'm curious :)

Also, please make a post with your votes - it'll be easier to count them later.
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Re: All-NBA Teams Project: 1996-00 All-NBA First Team 

Post#23 » by SinceGatlingWasARookie » Wed Oct 14, 2020 8:15 pm

Peak Grant Hill was a forward, otherrwise I would consider him vs Payton and Anfernee Hardaway.
Reggie Miller is past his peak so no.
Mitch Richmond.

Anfernee Hardaway is considered because of his scoring. I don't like his defense that much and I consider his playmaking overrated.

What version of Payton? Offensive and defensive peak don't match. I think I will just say consensus because i do want to choose Payton but I will go with consensus for the year. Payton is not that far ahead of the pack of contenders.

Payton's passing reminds me a bit of Westbrook's passing in a negative way. For drive and kick I prefer guys like Tim Hardaway, Chris Paul, Kevin Johnson. For running an offense I prefer guys like Stockton or Mark Jackson. For pure court vision and creativity I prefer guys more like Nash. I may be wrong when I don't respect Westbrook's assists and some of Payton's assists. But Payton was good enough at every part of playmaking that I can vote for him.

I am not taking the time to decide on a year for Karl Malone. Consensus year for him as well.
It is odd that the Jazz get to the finals when their stars are old. Maybe Byron Russell is the explanation. Maybe the Rockets and Hakeem were too good at neutralizing Malone. Otherwise I have to think something that did not show up in player stats or my impression of the guys individuall from watching them is the explanation, like better team defensive rotations explains their greater success when they are past their peaks as individuals.

I will make a choice on years for Payton and Malone if there ends up being a tie on what year to choose.

G: Consensus Year Gary Payton
G: 1995/96 Michael Jordan
F: consensus year Karl Malone
F: 1998/99 Tim Duncan
C: 1999/00 Shaquille O'Neal
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Re: All-NBA Teams Project: 1996-00 All-NBA First Team 

Post#24 » by Jordan Syndrome » Wed Oct 14, 2020 8:49 pm

70sFan wrote:
Jaivl wrote:
70sFan wrote:My votes:

G: 1995/96 Penny Hardaway
G: 1995/96 Michael Jordan
F: 1997/98 Karl Malone
F: 1998/99 Tim Duncan
C: 1999/00 Shaquille O'Neal


Penny Hardaway - I'm not super connected to this choice, but he was fantastic when Shaq missed games and carried that Magic team to very high heights. He didn't play well against Chicago Bulls in playoffs, but what perimeter player would do better against peak Bulls? Not many.

I considered 1997 Stockton and 2000 Payton, but decided to pick the best offensive player here. Reggie Miller is also a strong candidate.

Michael Jordan - clear choice, both with player and the season.

Karl Malone - I think it's quite easy choice. Forward position is stacked in this era, but I don't see post peak Barkley or pre-peak KG as better players than him. Pippen and Hill aren't on peak Malone level either.

Tim Duncan - for me it's easy choice, but maybe someone will argue otherwise.

Shaquille O'Neal - another easy choice, but this era will be interesting in 2nd and 3rd team. It's the first era when we have truly great seasons from centers.

These same votes but with 97 Malone.

Could you explain why you think that 1997 is better than 1998 for Malone? I'm curious :)

Also, please make a post with your votes - it'll be easier to count them later.


I'll explain why I choose him.

1) Athleticism

Malone was on a gradual decline throughout his 30s and I like what Malone was able to do in regards with effort in 1997, specifically the regular season.

2) Defense

Malone waltzed defensively during the 1998 regular season. The Jazz fell from 9th to 17th defensively in 1998. Part of that is attributed to the minutes distribution of Greg Ostertag, but my main point is something I truly believe in.

3) Playoff context

Malone was fine in 1997. He shut down Elden Campbell in game 5 against the Lakers, holding him to 1-13 shooting while Malone went for 32/20 with just 1 turnover.

Against a good Rockets team Malone was able to get Barkley into foul trouble throughout the series.

Malones finals wasnt pretty but he was getting the entire Bulls team into foul trouble while all of the bulls efforts were put onto Malone. Malone was still the backbone of a defense which held the Bulls to a mediocre offense in the finals.
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Re: All-NBA Teams Project: 1996-00 All-NBA First Team 

Post#25 » by Doctor MJ » Thu Oct 15, 2020 4:05 am

So, am I crazy for looking at '99-00 Reggie Miller here?

Scratch that: Why would say I'm crazy? Boolean answers aren't likely to be helpful.

He's old and if we weren't considering Stockton I could see DQing him on that alone. But Miller in '99-00 was the same age as Stockton in '96-97, and he wasn't just the focus of his team, he really scaled to his team's needs in a way that basically by definition Stockton wasn't doing.

I do understand arguments for any of the younger guys. I'm not a big Payton fan but will try to consider him. On the other hand I'm quite smitten with Penny so he may well win out.
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Re: All-NBA Teams Project: 1996-00 All-NBA First Team 

Post#26 » by Odinn21 » Thu Oct 15, 2020 4:27 am

Doctor MJ wrote:So, am I crazy for looking at '99-00 Reggie Miller here?

Scratch that: Why would say I'm crazy? Boolean answers aren't likely to be helpful.

He's old and if we weren't considering Stockton I could see DQing him on that alone. But Miller in '99-00 was the same age as Stockton in '96-97, and he wasn't just the focus of his team, he really scaled to his team's needs in a way that basically by definition Stockton wasn't doing.

I do understand arguments for any of the younger guys. I'm not a big Payton fan but will try to consider him. On the other hand I'm quite smitten with Penny so he may well win out.

Miller is definitely on my shortlist. I stated that I'm rewarding overall production more than usual in this project, especially over per minute / possession production. That's why I don't see Miller overtaking Payton or Penny, even though Miller was arguably as good as them in 1998 and 2000.

Reggie's 2000 postseason run was awesome without a doubt though. He did exactly what his team needed from him. His performance in 2000 is one of the epitomic performances about scoring efficiency after a certain volume can be as big as extra couple of extra points per game.
He averaged 24.0 ppg on .596 ts when the league average was .523 ts in regular season and .517 ts in postseason. This was one of the performances you wouldn't change for a 26-27 ppg on .550 ts performance.
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Re: All-NBA Teams Project: 1996-00 All-NBA First Team 

Post#27 » by HeartBreakKid » Thu Oct 15, 2020 4:30 am

G: 1996 Michael Jordan

G: 1997 John Stockton - I think John is brilliant this season. I know that in retrospect people kind of look at this as "John's already past it", but I really think that he just scaled back his scoring (like 3-4 points?) because the Jazz had some offensive help for once. Generally speaking, I think John is better than Gary Payton who's not as impactful on offense as his boxscore suggest. John's playmaking is just in another galaxy from Payton's, he's a better off ball player when he needs to be, he can shoot, the scoring gap is not that large (Gary is more aggressive and in a good way, but John's efficiency and complimentary scoring shakes off the damage). Stockton was great in a very deep post season run, I really think offensively they're not in the same class - now granted you could say the same defensively, and either way we cut it both are not chop liver on either side of the ball. I'm going with short shorts though. I'd consider Reggie Miller but I haven't looked too deeply into him. Penny is up there, but ultimately decided Stockton's stats are more convincing (and I understand his game outside of his stats much deeper than Penny's as I've seen him play more).

F: 2000 Tim Duncan - If someone plays the bulk of the RS it's good enough for me. 3rd year Duncan is clearly better than 2nd year Duncan, but I get why people would vote for 99 Duncan - we've already established that having no post season is a big no no for some.

F: 2000 Kevin Garnett - I see myself changing my vote to Karl Malone, but I think this era of Garnett is a bit overlooked. The scoring isn't pretty, no denying that, but I still think Karl Malone's scoring is not that impressive (clearly way above KG's). One thing I noticed is that during Garnett's abymsal shooting in the first round he averaged 9 assist on less than 3 turnovers, that's pretty crazy. Anyway, I think I'll take Garnett's superior defense, passing and even slightly better rebounding over Malone - Malone is great at all those things, and is a near equal to Garnett in rebounding during this period. While Malone is way above Garnett offensively, I'm not really convinced of 98 Malone's defense (he's good, but I think he's not as good as his younger years, and even his younger years he was never as good as KG). I could be way off and Malone is certainly the more conservative pick, but I'll roll with Garnett for now.

C: 2000 Shaquile O'Neal
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Re: All-NBA Teams Project: 1996-00 All-NBA First Team 

Post#28 » by Ryoga Hibiki » Thu Oct 15, 2020 6:18 am

HeartBreakKid wrote:G: 1996 Michael Jordan

G: 1997 John Stockton - I think John is brilliant this season. I know that in retrospect people kind of look at this as "John's already past it", but I really think that he just scaled back his scoring (like 3-4 points?) because the Jazz had some offensive help for once. Generally speaking, I think John is better than Gary Payton who's not as impactful on offense as his boxscore suggest. John's playmaking is just in another galaxy from Payton's, he's a better off ball player when he needs to be, he can shoot, the scoring gap is not that large (Gary is more aggressive and in a good way, but John's efficiency and complimentary scoring shakes off the damage). Stockton was great in a very deep post season run, I really think offensively they're not in the same class - now granted you could say the same defensively, and either way we cut it both are not chop liver on either side of the ball. I'm going with short shorts though. I'd consider Reggie Miller but I haven't looked too deeply into him. Penny is up there, but ultimately decided Stockton's stats are more convincing (and I understand his game outside of his stats much deeper than Penny's as I've seen him play more).

F: 2000 Tim Duncan - If someone plays the bulk of the RS it's good enough for me. 3rd year Duncan is clearly better than 2nd year Duncan, but I get why people would vote for 99 Duncan - we've already established that having no post season is a big no no for some.

F: 2000 Kevin Garnett - I see myself changing my vote to Karl Malone, but I think this era of Garnett is a bit overlooked. The scoring isn't pretty, no denying that, but I still think Karl Malone's scoring is not that impressive (clearly way above KG's). One thing I noticed is that during Garnett's abymsal shooting in the first round he averaged 9 assist on less than 3 turnovers, that's pretty crazy. Anyway, I think I'll take Garnett's superior defense, passing and even slightly better rebounding over Malone - Malone is great at all those things, and is a near equal to Garnett in rebounding during this period. While Malone is way above Garnett offensively, I'm not really convinced of 98 Malone's defense (he's good, but I think he's not as good as his younger years, and even his younger years he was never as good as KG). I could be way off and Malone is certainly the more conservative pick, but I'll roll with Garnett for now.

C: 2000 Shaquile O'Neal
wow, this is unexpected... 00 Garnett over Malone?
I think you're making the case that you would prefer Garnett in your time, fine, but I have a harder time believing you can argue that was a better season

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Re: All-NBA Teams Project: 1996-00 All-NBA First Team 

Post#29 » by 70sFan » Thu Oct 15, 2020 7:23 am

Doctor MJ wrote:So, am I crazy for looking at '99-00 Reggie Miller here?

Scratch that: Why would say I'm crazy? Boolean answers aren't likely to be helpful.

He's old and if we weren't considering Stockton I could see DQing him on that alone. But Miller in '99-00 was the same age as Stockton in '96-97, and he wasn't just the focus of his team, he really scaled to his team's needs in a way that basically by definition Stockton wasn't doing.

I do understand arguments for any of the younger guys. I'm not a big Payton fan but will try to consider him. On the other hand I'm quite smitten with Penny so he may well win out.

2000 Reggie is my pick for the next team, so I don't think it's crazy at all ;)
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Re: All-NBA Teams Project: 1996-00 All-NBA First Team 

Post#30 » by Dutchball97 » Thu Oct 15, 2020 7:48 am

70sFan wrote:
Doctor MJ wrote:So, am I crazy for looking at '99-00 Reggie Miller here?

Scratch that: Why would say I'm crazy? Boolean answers aren't likely to be helpful.

He's old and if we weren't considering Stockton I could see DQing him on that alone. But Miller in '99-00 was the same age as Stockton in '96-97, and he wasn't just the focus of his team, he really scaled to his team's needs in a way that basically by definition Stockton wasn't doing.

I do understand arguments for any of the younger guys. I'm not a big Payton fan but will try to consider him. On the other hand I'm quite smitten with Penny so he may well win out.

2000 Reggie is my pick for the next team, so I don't think it's crazy at all ;)


I think 2000 Reggie was meh in the regular season and I'm not sure in what way he really had a better post-season than any of Penny, Payton and Stockton either. It's clearly not a crazy pick, I considered him myself as well, but you'd probably have to go pretty deep into the "intangibles" department to justify him over those other guards imo.
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Re: All-NBA Teams Project: 1996-00 All-NBA First Team 

Post#31 » by Jordan Syndrome » Thu Oct 15, 2020 12:55 pm

Doctor MJ wrote:So, am I crazy for looking at '99-00 Reggie Miller here?

Scratch that: Why would say I'm crazy? Boolean answers aren't likely to be helpful.

He's old and if we weren't considering Stockton I could see DQing him on that alone. But Miller in '99-00 was the same age as Stockton in '96-97, and he wasn't just the focus of his team, he really scaled to his team's needs in a way that basically by definition Stockton wasn't doing.

I do understand arguments for any of the younger guys. I'm not a big Payton fan but will try to consider him. On the other hand I'm quite smitten with Penny so he may well win out.


Stockton actually scaled well in 1997, averaging 16.7 PPG in the post-season, the 5th most in his career. Stockton had back to back 17/12 games in the NBA Finals, the only games the Jazz won and produced 4 other performances with scoring over 20 points in the post-season.
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Re: All-NBA Teams Project: 1996-00 All-NBA First Team 

Post#32 » by 70sFan » Thu Oct 15, 2020 1:20 pm

Voting so far:

Guards:

Michael Jordan 8
Penny Hardaway 3
John Stockton 3
Gary Payton 2

Forwards:

Tim Duncan 8
Karl Malone 6
Kevin Garnett 2

Centers:

Shaquille O'Neal 8

The racefor 2nd guard is very close, other positions seems to be established at this point.
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Re: All-NBA Teams Project: 1996-00 All-NBA First Team 

Post#33 » by clearlynotjesse » Thu Oct 15, 2020 4:06 pm

70sFan wrote:Voting so far:

Guards:

Michael Jordan 8
Penny Hardaway 3
John Stockton 3
Gary Payton 2

Forwards:

Tim Duncan 8
Karl Malone 7
Kevin Garnett 1

Centers:

Shaquille O'Neal 8

The racefor 2nd guard is very close, other positions seems to be established at this point.


Switched my vote to KG
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Re: All-NBA Teams Project: 1996-00 All-NBA First Team 

Post#34 » by 70sFan » Thu Oct 15, 2020 8:06 pm

clearlynotjesse wrote:
70sFan wrote:Voting so far:

Guards:

Michael Jordan 8
Penny Hardaway 3
John Stockton 3
Gary Payton 2

Forwards:

Tim Duncan 8
Karl Malone 7
Kevin Garnett 1

Centers:

Shaquille O'Neal 8

The racefor 2nd guard is very close, other positions seems to be established at this point.


Switched my vote to KG

Updated ;)
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Re: All-NBA Teams Project: 1996-00 All-NBA First Team 

Post#35 » by Odinn21 » Thu Oct 15, 2020 10:12 pm

I don't see how 1998 Malone is not the best F in this time frame and Garnett is getting picked ahead of him. Even 1999 Duncan vs. 2000 Garnett is more of a debate. 1999 Duncan was not and did not perform better than 1998 Malone. Let alone 2000 Garnett.
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Re: All-NBA Teams Project: 1996-00 All-NBA First Team 

Post#36 » by Doctor MJ » Fri Oct 16, 2020 4:50 am

C Shaquille O'Neal '99-00 (which is what I said last time, which I think y'all wisely just rounded up to '00-01)
F Tim Duncan '98-99
F Karl Malone '96-97
G Michael Jordan '95-96
G Penny Hardaway '95-96

At Center:

There's just no debate. Greatest season by a center in NBA history.

At Forward:

I had Duncan as a lock from the get go and was thinking Malone while also thinking I was forgetting someone. And then I saw the votes for KG! I love that he's getting support here. I think he's worthy and I seriously considered picking him, but I have a ton of respect for what Malone was leading in Utah at this time.

At Guard:

Jordan obviously. To be honest, I find this to be Jordan's most impressive season, though I think he as an individual was better earlier in his career. The steel with which he carried himself when he came back just galvanized this team like nothing else in basketball history.

For the other spot, I'm THIS close to picking Reggie, but there are a lot of pointers indicating to me that Penny was as good as he looked and then some.

I will say though that I question what kind of a 3-point shooter Penny could be expected to have become behind the big boy line had injury not intervened and that gives me misgivings.
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Re: All-NBA Teams Project: 1996-00 All-NBA First Team 

Post#37 » by dontcalltimeout » Fri Oct 16, 2020 3:34 pm

For folks interested in this period, thought I would drop this table of scaled APMs for this period, it includes Elgee's AUPM for 96, NPI RAPM for 97, and then prior informed RAPM for later years. Source is this google sheet : https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1ukBETcjKmDbABCnlfz8LoHeQFmu7nq4pOAqns9KkfBk/edit?usp=sharing

The top 20 1-yr estimates for this period

    8.4 Shaquille O'Neal_1999-00
    7.9 Alonzo Mourning_1998-99
    7.2 Kevin Garnett_1999-00
    7.2 Christian Laettner_1996-97 NPI
    7.1 David Robinson_1998-99
    7.0 Rasheed Wallace_1998-99
    6.9 Michael Jordan_1996-97 NPI
    6.9 Tim Hardaway_1996-97 NPI
    6.9 Bo Outlaw_1996-97 NPI
    6.9 Terry Mills_1996-97 NPI
    6.8 Dikembe Mutombo_1999-00
    6.7 Mookie Blaylock_1997-98
    6.5 Scottie Pippen_1996-97 NPI
    6.5 Eddie Jones_1999-00
    6.4 Gary Payton_1999-00
    6.3 John Stockton_1999-00
    6.0 Grant Hill_1998-99
    6.0 Vlade Divac_1999-00
    5.9 Jeff Hornacek_1996-97 NPI
    5.7 Patrick Ewing_1996-97 NPI
    5.7 Anfernee Hardaway_1995-96 Au


Spoiler:
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Re: All-NBA Teams Project: 1996-00 All-NBA First Team 

Post#38 » by 70sFan » Fri Oct 16, 2020 8:53 pm

Don't make this project die, we need more votes!
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Re: All-NBA Teams Project: 1996-00 All-NBA First Team 

Post#39 » by Jordan Syndrome » Fri Oct 16, 2020 9:42 pm

70sFan wrote:Don't make this project die, we need more votes!


Spoiler:
Don't make this country die, we need more votes!


I'm stealing that.
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Re: All-NBA Teams Project: 1996-00 All-NBA First Team 

Post#40 » by RSCD3_ » Sat Oct 17, 2020 12:19 am

If I could be added to the List I'd be interested in adding my vote

1996 Hardaway
1996 Jordan
1999 Duncan
1997 Malone
2000 Shaq

Frontcourt and Jordan seem pretty self explanatory but penny strikes me as someone who was a very valuable piece that year, whose offense was certainly the most dynamic and in my opinion had the highest ceiling when it came to production.
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