Compare peak Curry to peak Magic

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Re: Compare peak Curry to peak Magic 

Post#41 » by Vladimir777 » Sat Oct 17, 2020 3:18 pm

WarriorGM wrote:
Dutchball97 wrote:
WarriorGM wrote:
Curry 2017 matches Magic 1987 just fine. Probably superior.


In terms of play-off performance I also think 87 Magic and 17 Curry are a wash but with KD coming to town Curry took on a lesser role in the regular season and it's not really comparable to Magic's MVP season in terms of production.


70sFan wrote:Curry in his "best" playoff run faced very weak competition while being on the most talented team ever. I know that Magic faced weak competition in 1987 as well, but he also has 1985 and 1988-91. Curry's 2nd best playoff run is what? 2015? 2019? I'd take Magic over that comfortably.


You guys should pull up Curry's 2015 numbers as well for comparison: higher playoffs wins shares, OBPM, and VORP.

Vladimir777 wrote:Wouldn't be a discussion about Steph without some graphs being brought out. I'm trying to not get bothered by the Steph love so much, but I clearly have a huge bias against the guy.


You're right more graphs are in order.

Image
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D7wepu0X4AAJfsz.jpg


LOL, you're definitely the biggest fan of the Curry graphs, WarriorGM. That being said, I respect your loyalty.
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Re: Compare peak Curry to peak Magic 

Post#42 » by therealbig3 » Sat Oct 17, 2020 3:40 pm

[quote=“WarriorGM”] Isiah Thomas might even have something to say about being the best point guard of that era![/quote]

Chris Paul has a MUCH better argument over Curry as the best PG of this era than Isiah Thomas has over Magic.
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Re: Compare peak Curry to peak Magic 

Post#43 » by 70sFan » Sat Oct 17, 2020 4:51 pm

Wow, arguing Thomas over Magic is the silliest thing I've ever seen in Magic discussions. I hate to say that, but stay to Curry WarriorGM..
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Re: Compare peak Curry to peak Magic 

Post#44 » by Pelly24 » Sat Oct 17, 2020 5:46 pm

Heej wrote:
WarriorGM wrote:
Heej wrote:Yeaaa, about the Heat...just no. There's a lot of factors at play as to why that series went 6, and as I mentioned already their offense got figured out fairly quickly. It only takes 1 or 2 games max to adjust to a team slipping screens all the time lol. System ball isn't gonna win you a ring in the playoffs nowadays. You need guys that can go vs single coverage on the players that are allowed to switch on to them and can punish the sell-out defenses through passes when they play that card in the adjustment game. Steph's just never truly gonna be that guy vs 1-4 switchers even though his passing+gravity vs sell-out defenses is of that caliber.


Never? Last I looked Curry had three rings....

Since we're also talking about Magic your comment is also irrelevant. Magic is not on Curry's level as a scorer.

All under outlier circumstances even for a championship. I don't think he provides the same real championship odds that the true top 10-15 all timers do.

Magics scoring is very functional in that he can score more than well enough to punish you for making the adjustment to try and limit his passing. Kinda like Jokic in a sense. There's enough there to schematically 'win' a playoff series and ensuring that the math is always tilted in your favor no matter what.

Also, Magics defense is better than Currys. And this is coming from someone who thinks Curry is the most underrated defender and rebounding guard in NBA history.


It's funny you bring up Jokic. When I try to imagine how good Magic actually was, I think of a more mobile Jokic (though Jokic I think has a more varied scoring skillset. Magic was great but Jokic is like Magic w. the Dirk fadeaway/midrange).

My thing with Curry is he's always seemed so beatable in way. People like Kobe (yes, even Kobe), LeBron and KD and MJ and Magic could just flat-out destroy people in one-on-one situations. They could just go. Curry's relative inability to just overpower or blow-by guys makes it harder for him. Still probably a top 25 player ever all things considered
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Re: Compare peak Curry to peak Magic 

Post#45 » by WarriorGM » Sat Oct 17, 2020 6:47 pm

Pelly24 wrote:
Heej wrote:
WarriorGM wrote:
Never? Last I looked Curry had three rings....

Since we're also talking about Magic your comment is also irrelevant. Magic is not on Curry's level as a scorer.

All under outlier circumstances even for a championship. I don't think he provides the same real championship odds that the true top 10-15 all timers do.

Magics scoring is very functional in that he can score more than well enough to punish you for making the adjustment to try and limit his passing. Kinda like Jokic in a sense. There's enough there to schematically 'win' a playoff series and ensuring that the math is always tilted in your favor no matter what.

Also, Magics defense is better than Currys. And this is coming from someone who thinks Curry is the most underrated defender and rebounding guard in NBA history.


It's funny you bring up Jokic. When I try to imagine how good Magic actually was, I think of a more mobile Jokic (though Jokic I think has a more varied scoring skillset. Magic was great but Jokic is like Magic w. the Dirk fadeaway/midrange).

My thing with Curry is he's always seemed so beatable in way. People like Kobe (yes, even Kobe), LeBron and KD and MJ and Magic could just flat-out destroy people in one-on-one situations. They could just go. Curry's relative inability to just overpower or blow-by guys makes it harder for him. Still probably a top 25 player ever all things considered


Your latter comments are actually the farthest thing from the truth. There is no one more dangerous than Curry. Indeed if there is anyone who can flat out destroy a team it is him. He starts dropping a few threes here and there and you've lost the game before you know it. His firepower means there is still a chance for his team to come back from a deficit which gives little incentive for his teammates to just give up in the face of a large lead.
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Re: Compare peak Curry to peak Magic 

Post#46 » by Pelly24 » Sat Oct 17, 2020 7:47 pm

WarriorGM wrote:
Pelly24 wrote:
Heej wrote:All under outlier circumstances even for a championship. I don't think he provides the same real championship odds that the true top 10-15 all timers do.

Magics scoring is very functional in that he can score more than well enough to punish you for making the adjustment to try and limit his passing. Kinda like Jokic in a sense. There's enough there to schematically 'win' a playoff series and ensuring that the math is always tilted in your favor no matter what.

Also, Magics defense is better than Currys. And this is coming from someone who thinks Curry is the most underrated defender and rebounding guard in NBA history.


It's funny you bring up Jokic. When I try to imagine how good Magic actually was, I think of a more mobile Jokic (though Jokic I think has a more varied scoring skillset. Magic was great but Jokic is like Magic w. the Dirk fadeaway/midrange).

My thing with Curry is he's always seemed so beatable in way. People like Kobe (yes, even Kobe), LeBron and KD and MJ and Magic could just flat-out destroy people in one-on-one situations. They could just go. Curry's relative inability to just overpower or blow-by guys makes it harder for him. Still probably a top 25 player ever all things considered


Your latter comments are actually the farthest thing from the truth. There is no one more dangerous than Curry. Indeed if there is anyone who can flat out destroy a team it is him. He starts dropping a few threes here and there and you've lost the game before you know it. His firepower means there is still a chance for his team to come back from a deficit which gives little incentive for his teammates to just give up in the face of a large lead.



What I mean is, put an elite perimeter defender on Curry and tell him to score on him again and again. I haven't really seen that. He usually gets the switch and does it to a big man.
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Re: Compare peak Curry to peak Magic 

Post#47 » by Heej » Sat Oct 17, 2020 11:01 pm

Pelly24 wrote:
WarriorGM wrote:
Pelly24 wrote:
It's funny you bring up Jokic. When I try to imagine how good Magic actually was, I think of a more mobile Jokic (though Jokic I think has a more varied scoring skillset. Magic was great but Jokic is like Magic w. the Dirk fadeaway/midrange).

My thing with Curry is he's always seemed so beatable in way. People like Kobe (yes, even Kobe), LeBron and KD and MJ and Magic could just flat-out destroy people in one-on-one situations. They could just go. Curry's relative inability to just overpower or blow-by guys makes it harder for him. Still probably a top 25 player ever all things considered


Your latter comments are actually the farthest thing from the truth. There is no one more dangerous than Curry. Indeed if there is anyone who can flat out destroy a team it is him. He starts dropping a few threes here and there and you've lost the game before you know it. His firepower means there is still a chance for his team to come back from a deficit which gives little incentive for his teammates to just give up in the face of a large lead.



What I mean is, put an elite perimeter defender on Curry and tell him to score on him again and again. I haven't really seen that. He usually gets the switch and does it to a big man.

It's not even just the scoring. He just doesn't create high value shots going at wing defenders either. His passing just isn't good enough to punish defenses when he draws help when forced to iso vs a switching defense.
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Re: Compare peak Curry to peak Magic 

Post#48 » by WarriorGM » Sun Oct 18, 2020 5:36 am

Heej wrote:
Pelly24 wrote:
WarriorGM wrote:
Your latter comments are actually the farthest thing from the truth. There is no one more dangerous than Curry. Indeed if there is anyone who can flat out destroy a team it is him. He starts dropping a few threes here and there and you've lost the game before you know it. His firepower means there is still a chance for his team to come back from a deficit which gives little incentive for his teammates to just give up in the face of a large lead.



What I mean is, put an elite perimeter defender on Curry and tell him to score on him again and again. I haven't really seen that. He usually gets the switch and does it to a big man.

It's not even just the scoring. He just doesn't create high value shots going at wing defenders either. His passing just isn't good enough to punish defenses when he draws help when forced to iso vs a switching defense.


Passing directly to an open man to score is what other lesser players are forced to do. Curry can do something other players cannot or do not do as effectively: relocate.
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Re: Compare peak Curry to peak Magic 

Post#49 » by Heej » Sun Oct 18, 2020 3:07 pm

WarriorGM wrote:
Heej wrote:
Pelly24 wrote:

What I mean is, put an elite perimeter defender on Curry and tell him to score on him again and again. I haven't really seen that. He usually gets the switch and does it to a big man.

It's not even just the scoring. He just doesn't create high value shots going at wing defenders either. His passing just isn't good enough to punish defenses when he draws help when forced to iso vs a switching defense.


Passing directly to an open man to score is what other lesser players are forced to do. Curry can do something other players cannot or do not do as effectively: relocate.

That definitely helps, but again that's something that is less resilient in the playoffs as teams get used to that action of his. That's definitely a key component as to why I think Dame will never be on his level, and why Harden likely never wins one tho. Still though, just not that reliable at the end of the day if that's what you're going to for offense when everything else breaks down as it tends to do later in a series lol.
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Re: Compare peak Curry to peak Magic 

Post#50 » by ShotCreator » Sun Oct 18, 2020 4:34 pm

I just wanna say 2016 Curry is by far the best version of the guy on every level and the MCL injury ended his athletic peak early.

If you watch how he was moving on the court in 2016 and compare it to 2017, it’s obvious.

By 2018, Curry got into ref baiting tactics because he couldn’t gain the same separation as he did at age 28 or 29.

13-15 and 17-19 are different versions of him. 2016 is definitely the stand alone peak where it all came together.
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Re: Compare peak Curry to peak Magic 

Post#51 » by Pelly24 » Sun Oct 18, 2020 4:41 pm

ShotCreator wrote:I just wanna say 2016 Curry is by far the best version of the guy on every level and the MCL injury ended his athletic peak early.

If you watch how he was moving on the court in 2016 and compare it to 2017, it’s obvious.

By 2018, Curry got into ref baiting tactics because he couldn’t gain the same separation as he did at age 28 or 29.

13-15 and 17-19 are different versions of him. 2016 is definitely the stand alone peak where it all came together.


Ehh, to me he looks the same. He's never had a lot of torque and burst to get down hill. Def. could've hampered him during the postseason (even though he looked as good as ever vs. Portland and OKC).
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Re: Compare peak Curry to peak Magic 

Post#52 » by Firebird1 » Sun Oct 18, 2020 5:04 pm

I prefer Magic. I think that his game is more resilient in the postseason. :D
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Re: Compare peak Curry to peak Magic 

Post#53 » by ShotCreator » Sun Oct 18, 2020 5:26 pm

Pelly24 wrote:
ShotCreator wrote:I just wanna say 2016 Curry is by far the best version of the guy on every level and the MCL injury ended his athletic peak early.

If you watch how he was moving on the court in 2016 and compare it to 2017, it’s obvious.

By 2018, Curry got into ref baiting tactics because he couldn’t gain the same separation as he did at age 28 or 29.

13-15 and 17-19 are different versions of him. 2016 is definitely the stand alone peak where it all came together.


Ehh, to me he looks the same. He's never had a lot of torque and burst to get down hill. Def. could've hampered him during the postseason (even though he looked as good as ever vs. Portland and OKC).
So if he was the same, why would his performances be significantly worse and even stylistically different?

The guy was himself over what 90 games in 2016? It wasn’t just some hot stretch. He was finishing at the rim better than LeBron.

I don’t get why the rules on peaks are changed with the guy, and why the effect of a serious injury is ignored.

Who is ever actually the same from a significant injury? Especially a joint and ligament one.

And more than that, he aged into a significant age phase. Early 30’s.

Edit: and I got the game wrong. Curry was 27 in 2015-16. That such an obvious peak year it’s ridiculous.
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Re: Compare peak Curry to peak Magic 

Post#54 » by Heej » Sun Oct 18, 2020 7:12 pm

ShotCreator wrote:I just wanna say 2016 Curry is by far the best version of the guy on every level and the MCL injury ended his athletic peak early.

If you watch how he was moving on the court in 2016 and compare it to 2017, it’s obvious.

By 2018, Curry got into ref baiting tactics because he couldn’t gain the same separation as he did at age 28 or 29.

13-15 and 17-19 are different versions of him. 2016 is definitely the stand alone peak where it all came together.

Yeaa that's cap. A sprain that's given 3 months off to heal isn't gonna be doing all that lol
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Re: Compare peak Curry to peak Magic 

Post#55 » by frica » Sun Oct 18, 2020 7:33 pm

As with Dirk, Curry's gravity means people are prone to overrate their passing vision.
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Re: Compare peak Curry to peak Magic 

Post#56 » by ShotCreator » Sun Oct 18, 2020 8:06 pm

Heej wrote:
ShotCreator wrote:I just wanna say 2016 Curry is by far the best version of the guy on every level and the MCL injury ended his athletic peak early.

If you watch how he was moving on the court in 2016 and compare it to 2017, it’s obvious.

By 2018, Curry got into ref baiting tactics because he couldn’t gain the same separation as he did at age 28 or 29.

13-15 and 17-19 are different versions of him. 2016 is definitely the stand alone peak where it all came together.

Yeaa that's cap. A sprain that's given 3 months off to heal isn't gonna be doing all that lol


I don’t think that’s necessarily true.

Chris Paul’s athleticism took a massive hit after that hamstring injury in 2018. And it wasn’t even an out indefinitely kind of thing.

He would’ve played in the finals.

Curry has literally not been the same dominant player since that. You go from the best player in the NBA for the majority of two seasons to never even a real MVP candidate again, and it’s just what coincidence?

He goes from unanimous MVP to just another elite player?

His trajectory as a player up to that point was clear.



Image

There’s a very strong possibility his first MVP season was better than anything after the MCL injury.

Look at the yearly improvement once he could beat the ankle injuries. Look at the massive drop off, and the inability to even get back to 2015 level.

He’s been more 2014 Curry with phenomenal help, than some scary monster that he was in 2015 and 2016. I can’t imagine the MCL injury had nothing to do with it. He did do that whole bulking up thing in 2016/17, but maybe that was an attempt to offset it. Either way, 2016 is easily way scarier, and was clearly way quicker and natural with his movements than 17-19.

16 Curry was a blow by machine.
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Re: Compare peak Curry to peak Magic 

Post#57 » by therealbig3 » Sun Oct 18, 2020 8:11 pm

ShotCreator wrote:
Heej wrote:
ShotCreator wrote:I just wanna say 2016 Curry is by far the best version of the guy on every level and the MCL injury ended his athletic peak early.

If you watch how he was moving on the court in 2016 and compare it to 2017, it’s obvious.

By 2018, Curry got into ref baiting tactics because he couldn’t gain the same separation as he did at age 28 or 29.

13-15 and 17-19 are different versions of him. 2016 is definitely the stand alone peak where it all came together.

Yeaa that's cap. A sprain that's given 3 months off to heal isn't gonna be doing all that lol


I don’t think that’s necessarily true.

Chris Paul’s athleticism took a massive hit after that hamstring injury in 2018. And it wasn’t even an out indefinitely kind of thing.

He would’ve played in the finals.

Curry has literally not been the same dominant player since that. You go from the best player in the NBA for the majority of two seasons to never even a real MVP candidate again, and it’s just what coincidence?

He goes from unanimous MVP to just another elite player?

His trajectory as a player up to that point was clear.



Image

There’s a very strong possibility his first MVP season was better than anything after the MCL injury.

Look at the yearly improvement once he could beat the ankle injuries. Look at the massive drop off, and the inability to even get back to 2015 level.

He’s been more 2014 Curry with phenomenal help, than some scary monster that he was in 2015 and 2016. I can’t imagine the MCL injury had nothing to do with it. He did do that whole bulking up thing in 2016/17, but maybe that was an attempt to offset it. Either way, 2016 is easily way scarier, and was clearly way quicker and natural with his movements than 17-19.

16 Curry was a blow by machine.


I mean, something pretty significant happened in the 2016 off season that may have effected Curry's 17-19 numbers that had nothing to do with Curry as an individual basketball player.

Also, yeah, players peak, and then tail off. For an elite player, he can look like the best player in the league for a couple of seasons, and then still remain as a top 5 player for a few years after that, that happens all the time. Especially for a 27-28 year old player.
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Re: Compare peak Curry to peak Magic 

Post#58 » by Heej » Sun Oct 18, 2020 8:34 pm

ShotCreator wrote:
Heej wrote:
ShotCreator wrote:I just wanna say 2016 Curry is by far the best version of the guy on every level and the MCL injury ended his athletic peak early.

If you watch how he was moving on the court in 2016 and compare it to 2017, it’s obvious.

By 2018, Curry got into ref baiting tactics because he couldn’t gain the same separation as he did at age 28 or 29.

13-15 and 17-19 are different versions of him. 2016 is definitely the stand alone peak where it all came together.

Yeaa that's cap. A sprain that's given 3 months off to heal isn't gonna be doing all that lol


I don’t think that’s necessarily true.

Chris Paul’s athleticism took a massive hit after that hamstring injury in 2018. And it wasn’t even an out indefinitely kind of thing.

He would’ve played in the finals.

Curry has literally not been the same dominant player since that. You go from the best player in the NBA for the majority of two seasons to never even a real MVP candidate again, and it’s just what coincidence?

He goes from unanimous MVP to just another elite player?

His trajectory as a player up to that point was clear.



Image

There’s a very strong possibility his first MVP season was better than anything after the MCL injury.

Look at the yearly improvement once he could beat the ankle injuries. Look at the massive drop off, and the inability to even get back to 2015 level.

He’s been more 2014 Curry with phenomenal help, than some scary monster that he was in 2015 and 2016. I can’t imagine the MCL injury had nothing to do with it. He did do that whole bulking up thing in 2016/17, but maybe that was an attempt to offset it. Either way, 2016 is easily way scarier, and was clearly way quicker and natural with his movements than 17-19.

16 Curry was a blow by machine.

Tbh I think a big part of that is just KD absorbing a lot of Steph's usage and relegating him to running around off-ball more. God damn, I forgot what a nightmare landscape it was these last few years with that team. Thank God that run Is over lol
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Re: Compare peak Curry to peak Magic 

Post#59 » by oaktownwarriors87 » Mon Oct 19, 2020 2:27 pm

Heej wrote:Man i love the Curry stans lol. It gets under people's skin so much because deep down inside everyone knows they have a leg to stand on in the discussion. Unfortunately most of them are also oblivious to the fact that he falls to the same trappings of the small guard archetype that every other one deals with. They inherently have less playoff resilience than their wing counterparts. Doubly so with motion offense as seen in just this last series with the Heat. Steph's also much more prone to getting "figured out" the later a series goes than someone like Magic who is a walking mismatch and can pass+score his way out of any scheme.


LOL

The guy that 2nd all time in 4th quarter scoring in a finals, the guy that almost averaged a 30 point triple double in the Finals, the guy that made 5 consecutive finals, the guy that won without a superstar teammate and has never lost in less than 6 games can be held back in the playoffs.

If the guy was so easy to stop in the playoffs then he would attract more defensive attention than every single other Superstar in the playoffs.

When teams are letting the player like Kevin Durant have it easy because Stephen Curry's on the floor, you know they respect the guy.

Want to know who players and teams respect/fear? Look at how they defend the player.
PockyCandy wrote:Is Ball's shot any more ugly than Curry's? Curry just seems to launch it towards the basket like an 8 year old.
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Re: Compare peak Curry to peak Magic 

Post#60 » by oaktownwarriors87 » Mon Oct 19, 2020 2:31 pm

ShotCreator wrote:
Heej wrote:
ShotCreator wrote:I just wanna say 2016 Curry is by far the best version of the guy on every level and the MCL injury ended his athletic peak early.

If you watch how he was moving on the court in 2016 and compare it to 2017, it’s obvious.

By 2018, Curry got into ref baiting tactics because he couldn’t gain the same separation as he did at age 28 or 29.

13-15 and 17-19 are different versions of him. 2016 is definitely the stand alone peak where it all came together.

Yeaa that's cap. A sprain that's given 3 months off to heal isn't gonna be doing all that lol


I don’t think that’s necessarily true.

Chris Paul’s athleticism took a massive hit after that hamstring injury in 2018. And it wasn’t even an out indefinitely kind of thing.

He would’ve played in the finals.

Curry has literally not been the same dominant player since that. You go from the best player in the NBA for the majority of two seasons to never even a real MVP candidate again, and it’s just what coincidence?

He goes from unanimous MVP to just another elite player?

His trajectory as a player up to that point was clear.



Image

There’s a very strong possibility his first MVP season was better than anything after the MCL injury.

Look at the yearly improvement once he could beat the ankle injuries. Look at the massive drop off, and the inability to even get back to 2015 level.

He’s been more 2014 Curry with phenomenal help, than some scary monster that he was in 2015 and 2016. I can’t imagine the MCL injury had nothing to do with it. He did do that whole bulking up thing in 2016/17, but maybe that was an attempt to offset it. Either way, 2016 is easily way scarier, and was clearly way quicker and natural with his movements than 17-19.

16 Curry was a blow by machine.


You don't think 16-19 Curry could play like 73-9 again without Durant?

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PockyCandy wrote:Is Ball's shot any more ugly than Curry's? Curry just seems to launch it towards the basket like an 8 year old.

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