RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #2 (Michael Jordan)

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Re: RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #2 

Post#41 » by Texas Chuck » Sat Oct 17, 2020 2:10 am

2klegend wrote:
Texas Chuck wrote:
2klegend wrote:Wow Lebron edges out Jordan @ GOAT?? That is crazy to think considering 10 years later, people will forget the legacy of Lebron than MJ.



In ten years literally nobody will have forgotten about Lebron. What are you on about exactly?

I mean in 10 years, people will remember Lebron as one of the All-Time Greats just like they remember the like of Wilt, Kareem. The dominant player in his era but will likely not transpire a new group of kids growing up wanting to be like Mike, the icon. It is not a coincident Jordan sells more shoes than Lebron despite already retired. That is an amazing legacy I'm talking about.


What is the relevance of any of this? AI is going to be a bigger cultural icon than Steve Nash. He wasn't better at basketball.

And it goes without saying Lebron will be inspiring more kids over the next decade than Mike.
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Re: RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #2 

Post#42 » by 2klegend » Sat Oct 17, 2020 2:12 am

A cultural icon is just one titbit of Jordan greatness. It is the combination of eye tests, stat production, winning, and the determination to achieve all those on the court. This is why I can't have Kareem, the Russell, the Wilt, and even Lebron. None of them have that complete factor I mentioned.
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Re: RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #2 

Post#43 » by 2klegend » Sat Oct 17, 2020 2:15 am

Texas Chuck wrote:
2klegend wrote:
Texas Chuck wrote:

In ten years literally nobody will have forgotten about Lebron. What are you on about exactly?

I mean in 10 years, people will remember Lebron as one of the All-Time Greats just like they remember the like of Wilt, Kareem. The dominant player in his era but will likely not transpire a new group of kids growing up wanting to be like Mike, the icon. It is not a coincident Jordan sells more shoes than Lebron despite already retired. That is an amazing legacy I'm talking about.


What is the relevance of any of this? AI is going to be a bigger cultural icon than Steve Nash. He wasn't better at basketball.

And it goes without saying Lebron will be inspiring more kids over the next decade than Mike.

Not really. AI would kill Nash in a 1vs1 basketball game of death but Nash talent is making others competing at a higher level than AI.

I'm not sure about that many kids growing up idolizing Lebron style of play.
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Re: RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #2 

Post#44 » by 2klegend » Sat Oct 17, 2020 2:18 am

I bet Jordan right now love NOTHING more than giving up everything to bring back his youthfulness and join the league to compete against Lebron. Nothing drives him more than proving people wrong on the court. Man that killer will make sure people think twice about thinking another player is better at basketball than he is.
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Re: RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #2 

Post#45 » by homecourtloss » Sat Oct 17, 2020 2:24 am

2klegend wrote:A cultural icon is just one titbit of Jordan greatness. It is the combination of eye tests, stat production, winning, and the determination to achieve all those on the court. This is why I can't have Kareem, the Russell, the Wilt, and even Lebron. None of them have that complete factor I mentioned.


I thought your formula concluded that Jordan was at the top? From the sound of this post, it seems that you’d have Jordan on top regardless and tinker with the formula until it spit out the “right answer.”
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Re: RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #2 

Post#46 » by 2klegend » Sat Oct 17, 2020 2:29 am

homecourtloss wrote:
2klegend wrote:A cultural icon is just one titbit of Jordan greatness. It is the combination of eye tests, stat production, winning, and the determination to achieve all those on the court. This is why I can't have Kareem, the Russell, the Wilt, and even Lebron. None of them have that complete factor I mentioned.


I thought your formula concluded that Jordan was at the top? From the sound of this post, it seems that you’d have Jordan on top regardless and tinker with the formula until it spit out the “right answer.”

Not really. I have Jordan on top for a variety of reasons including his accolades so far triumph Lebron. But why Lebron on top when he has fewer accolades and achieving less in his career?

I already conceded that if Lebron brings in another title and MVP, even if it's 5>6, I will have Lebron as GOAT and that is how much I value his game and really value his longer prime.
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Re: RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #2 

Post#47 » by Jordan Syndrome » Sat Oct 17, 2020 3:06 am

Copy Paste + Wilt, Garnett and Shaq.

Advanced Cumulative-Statistical Profile:

*Michael Jordan's numbers will include his 22 game stretch in 1995, it is simply far easier to include them

Michael Jordan RS ('87-'98): 29.4 PER, 189.0 WS (.281 WS/48), 8.1 OBPM, 101.9 VORP
Michael Jordan PS ('87-'98): 28.7 PER, 38.6 WS (.258 WS/48), 8.8 OBPM, 23.8 VORP

Tim Duncan RS ('98-'10): 25.0 PER, 162.3 WS (.219 WS/48), 3.8 OBPM, 72.8 VORP
Tim Duncan PS ('98-'10): 25.7 PER, 28.6 WS (.204 WS/48), 4.2 OBPM, 15.0 VORP

Kareem Abdul-Jabbar RS ('70-'84): 26.0 PER, 235.7 WS (.247 WS/48), 5.0 OBPM, 72.7 VORP
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar PS ('70-'84): 25.3 PER, 28.4 WS (.223 WS/48), 6.0 OBPM, 10.5 VORP

Bill Russell RS ('57-'67): 19.4 PER, 144.4 WS (.201 WS/48)
Bill Russell PS ('57-'67): 20.4 PER, 24.7 WS (.204 WS/48)


Wilt Chamberlain RS ('60-'67): 29.3 PER, 163.2 WS (.268 WS/48)
Wilt Chamberlain PS ('60-'67): 27.8 PER, 16.9 WS (.254 WS/48)

Kevin Garnett RS ('98-'08): 25.0 PER, 139.6 WS (.206 WS/48), 5.0 OBPM, 75.2 VORP
Kevin Garnett PS ('98-'08): 23.4 PER, 9.6 WS (.161 WS/48), 4.2 BPM, 6.2 VORP

Shaquille O'Neal RS ('95-'05): 28.5 PER, 129.0 WS (.232 WS/48), 5.8 OBPM, 57.4 VORP
Shaquille O'Neal PS ('95-'05): 27.6 PER, 28.4 WS (.204 WS/48), 6.0 OBPM, 14.4 VORP

The Spurs in 2011 were disappointing, Duncan was bad in the post-season and the Spurs dynasty appeared to be nearing an end. Duncan would ignore all doubters in 2012, anchoring a team which went 19-2 in Duncan's final 21 regular season games. In 2013 and 2014 Duncan was the defensive anchor and key contributor on 2 NBA Finals team, finally getting over the hump for the final time in 2014. Duncan's game 6 in the 2013 NBA Finals was an all-time classic performance, as were his game 3's against the Lakers and Grizzles.

The 1985 Finals featured Kareem posting a ridiculous 28.4/10.2/6.0 in the games 2-6 while being un-guardable as a scorer on the floor. Although Kareem's 1986 campaign ended poorly, Kareem willingly took on a lesser, still impactful role in 1987 to help the Lakers win Kareem's 5th title on behalf of Magic Johnson.

Russell's impact didn't fall on a game by game basis until 1969, where Russell was still phenomenal in the post-season. At age 35 Russell led the Celtics, in the finals, in rebounds and assists on the way to his 11th title after dismantling a soon-to-be-champions in the New York Knicks with their newly acquired secret weapon, Dave DeBusschere. The Celtics and Russell in 1968 were able to stave off two juggernauts in the 76ers and Lakers on the way to their 10th title.


Wilt had very productive years in 1969 and 1971 with the Lakers. His impact was felt largely after changing his style of play after 1966, following the 76ers disappointing post-season. Wilt was finally able to put it all together on a team in 1972 while Wilt missing 1970 highlighted his impact as the Lakers were significantly worse in this season compared to 1969 and 1971. Wilt really is the closest player statistically to Jordan and James over a "shorter prime" period and his "non-prime" years which I touched on above simply out match any other players on this list when looked at on a year to year basis.

Kevin Garnett's prime is difficult to contextualize but I will focus on his "non-prime" years here. Garnett was already the best player on a playoff team at the age of 20, which is rarely seen in the NBA's vast history. His 1997 was a great carry job on the defensive end where Garnett's versatility shined and his fluid offense set the tone for one of the greatest careers in NBA History. Garnett's 2009 campaign was ruined by injury but his following 2010-2012 campaigns still featured high impact seasons from both ends of the court. Although Garnett's offense started to slip in 2013, his defense was still at a near all-time level from a per-minute basis.

Shaq simply isn't a favorite of mine...to put it nicely. His dominance in his prime was often coupled by a dominant perimeter star, but, and a big but here, all of the players in this comparison so far have played with talented players, some less than others (Garnett and Wilt notable). Ultimately, Shaq's "non-prime" seasons here simply do not move the needle in comparison to anyone else here, in fact, he has the worst years here.

Ultimately, I come away with a few conclusions from the 1st thread, posts from this one and my own research over the years. Shaquille O'Neal doesn't separate himself from this pack in his prime in a way like Jordan did and his CORP is dead last in this group, both focusing on "Prime CORP" and "other years". Wilt ends up closer to Shaq than to the rest of the players in this comparison, making this a 5-player group with Russell and Jordan a "half-step" up on Kareem, Duncan and Garnett. Kareem and Duncan are still ahead of Garnett for me, and if Garnett is this high I am probably going to bring in Moses, Hakeem and a few others soon as I don't like limiting myself to 3 players and, as we move down the GOAT list, the more players have arguments for a position.

Focusing back in at the #3 spot on this vote I am putting a few more eggs into the Duncan basket in comparison to the Kareem basket. 2002 and 2003 Duncan reached a level I don't put Kareem on. I'm higher on his later years in comparison to Kareem as his defense was still great and offensively I don't see a major difference, certainly smaller than the gap defensively.

1. Bill Russell
2. Michael Jordan
3. Tim Duncan
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Re: RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #2 

Post#48 » by 90sAllDecade » Sat Oct 17, 2020 5:59 am

Jordan is my vote here. His scoring in unrivaled in the modern era, a dominant force as a two way player and arguably the greatest mental strength and competitor all time.

Olajuwon is the next best player in overall combined two way impact. He's the best defensive player in the modern era with tougher competition at his position and era to others. He outplayed or dominanted all his HOF peers in the playoffs at his position, including an older Kareem in LA while a second year player. He destroyed GOAT level frontlines in Robinson and Rodman, as well as destroyed Parish, Ewing and outplayed Shaq all in the playoffs.

Kareem is my third choice as the offensive yin to Hakeem's yang. Hakeem had a higher peak and defense but Kareem had the longevity and offense. An incredible player, who's accomplishments are well known, but if they played head to head in the playoffs with even coaching, team support and rules I have Dream a little better and mentally stronger.


1. Jordan
2. Olajuwon
3. Kareem
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Re: RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #2 

Post#49 » by Franco » Sat Oct 17, 2020 6:43 am

Had to miss the first thread for a few reasons, but here are my votes (will edit to add reasoning tomorrow since it’s already fairly late here):

1. Bill Russell
2. Michael Jordan
3. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
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Re: RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #2 

Post#50 » by Gregoire » Sat Oct 17, 2020 6:48 am

2klegend wrote:
homecourtloss wrote:
2klegend wrote:A cultural icon is just one titbit of Jordan greatness. It is the combination of eye tests, stat production, winning, and the determination to achieve all those on the court. This is why I can't have Kareem, the Russell, the Wilt, and even Lebron. None of them have that complete factor I mentioned.


I thought your formula concluded that Jordan was at the top? From the sound of this post, it seems that you’d have Jordan on top regardless and tinker with the formula until it spit out the “right answer.”

Not really. I have Jordan on top for a variety of reasons including his accolades so far triumph Lebron. But why Lebron on top when he has fewer accolades and achieving less in his career?

I already conceded that if Lebron brings in another title and MVP, even if it's 5>6, I will have Lebron as GOAT and that is how much I value his game and really value his longer prime.


I think main problem here that a lot of people didnt see MJ live (only youtube) and are very numbers or stats (or rings oriented) and sometimes its very difficult to explain formulate in sentences why he was best (not bias, but just he has "it" - then you know we will win regardless). Yeah, Im failed to explain it properly too. Even at his peak, if we take only numbers - Shaq, Lebron are close, but if you would watch he games, playoffs of them (not today, but in respective live situation and moment) - only Jordan looked inhuman. Even "clutch" stats dont paint picture. Such "clutch" moments, momentum shifts could be in 1 or 2 quarters. Overall, I think eye-test here is underrated.

My vote:
1. MJ - best peak ever, had him 1st.
2. Kareem - best longevity ever + skyhook
3. Shaq - second peak and talent overall after MJ (maybe even better than Lebron).
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Yeah, when ever I make all time comparisons, I pretty much ignore the pre-3PT-line era. The game was so different then. It's apples and oranges. Those guys may be better or may be worse, we're never really going to know.
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Re: RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #2 

Post#51 » by limbo » Sat Oct 17, 2020 10:59 am

Ok, i'll go ahead and officially vote for:

1. Michael Jordan

- Best 10+ year prime out of remaining candidates, most consistent/resilient player in the Playoffs with least 'oopsies', best player on 6 title teams, dominated a bit of a tougher era compared to Kareem/Russell who were two of the other guys i was thinking about putting in this spot. Very good defensively as well...

My two other nominees are:

2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
3. Bill Russell
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Re: RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #2 

Post#52 » by Owly » Sat Oct 17, 2020 11:43 am

Joao Saraiva wrote:I'd say he covered as much ground as Kevin Garnett

I might be wrong here (or misinterpreting), my scouting eye is not good, but this seems optimistic. Wasn't Garnett used at the top of zones under Saunders? I'm not sure sure if Olajuwon did anything like that (not that he should).

I get that Olajuwon being the rim protector he was, you don't want him guarding 1-5 but still I don't think he did (and to a lesser degree could) cover the ground that Garnett could, and sometimes did, cover on the perimeter.
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Re: RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #2 

Post#53 » by Sublime187 » Sat Oct 17, 2020 11:57 am

Spoiler:
Gregoire wrote:
2klegend wrote:
homecourtloss wrote:
I thought your formula concluded that Jordan was at the top? From the sound of this post, it seems that you’d have Jordan on top regardless and tinker with the formula until it spit out the “right answer.”

Not really. I have Jordan on top for a variety of reasons including his accolades so far triumph Lebron. But why Lebron on top when he has fewer accolades and achieving less in his career?

I already conceded that if Lebron brings in another title and MVP, even if it's 5>6, I will have Lebron as GOAT and that is how much I value his game and really value his longer prime.


I think main problem here that a lot of people didnt see MJ live (only youtube) and are very numbers or stats (or rings oriented) and sometimes its very difficult to explain formulate in sentences why he was best (not bias, but just he has "it" - then you know we will win regardless). Yeah, Im failed to explain it properly too. Even at his peak, if we take only numbers - Shaq, Lebron are close, but if you would watch he games, playoffs of them (not today, but in respective live situation and moment) - only Jordan looked inhuman. Even "clutch" stats dont paint picture. Such "clutch" moments, momentum shifts could be in 1 or 2 quarters. Overall, I think eye-test here is underrated.

My vote:
1. MJ - best peak ever, had him 1st.
2. Kareem - best longevity ever + skyhook
3. Shaq - second peak and talent overall after MJ (maybe even better than Lebron).


I actually look at it the opposite way most times. On youtube all you get are highlights. Showing the best times of MJ's career like he never did anything wrong because there is not much out there proving the contrary position. So, people don't realize that MJ also had many failures in his career. Series where he did not play well. A lot of people don't even know he got eliminated in 95...So, I think it actually works to his advantage in that sense.

A guy like LeBron most people on this board have likely seen most of his career. All the ups and downs that a career has which they did not get to witness first hand with MJ. So, people come on here that have maybe viewed 5% or less of MJ's career and think he never did anything wrong.
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Re: RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #2 

Post#54 » by Sublime187 » Sat Oct 17, 2020 12:07 pm

2klegend wrote:
Texas Chuck wrote:
2klegend wrote:Wow Lebron edges out Jordan @ GOAT?? That is crazy to think considering 10 years later, people will forget the legacy of Lebron than MJ.



In ten years literally nobody will have forgotten about Lebron. What are you on about exactly?

I mean in 10 years, people will remember Lebron as one of the All-Time Greats just like they remember the like of Wilt, Kareem. The dominant player in his era but will likely not transpire a new group of kids growing up wanting to be like Mike, the icon. It is not a coincident Jordan sells more shoes than Lebron despite already retired. That is an amazing legacy I'm talking about.



IMO In 10 years LeBron will have a much larger advantage in comparison to MJ. There are people out there that say that Russell and Wilt are the best ever and nobody even comes close. As we move further and further away from their time people start to question the era and competition. Who is to say the same does not happen with MJ?

I guarantee you if we had a similar amount of posters in the age group of 50-60 on this board as we do with the younger crowd there is a chance that Russell, Wilt or even KAJ get the number one ranking in this project.
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Re: RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #2 

Post#55 » by 2klegend » Sat Oct 17, 2020 12:14 pm

Sublime187 wrote:
2klegend wrote:
Texas Chuck wrote:

In ten years literally nobody will have forgotten about Lebron. What are you on about exactly?

I mean in 10 years, people will remember Lebron as one of the All-Time Greats just like they remember the like of Wilt, Kareem. The dominant player in his era but will likely not transpire a new group of kids growing up wanting to be like Mike, the icon. It is not a coincident Jordan sells more shoes than Lebron despite already retired. That is an amazing legacy I'm talking about.



IMO In 10 years LeBron will have a much larger advantage in comparison to MJ. There are people out there that say that Russell and Wilt are the best ever and nobody even comes close. As we move further and further away from their time people start to question the era and competition. Who is to say the same does not happen with MJ?

I guarantee you if we had a similar amount of posters in the age group of 50-60 on this board as we do with the younger crowd there is a chance that Russell, Wilt or even KAJ get the number one ranking in this project.

That hard unless kids stop buying Jordan shoes. The name Jordan is recognized globally because of his iconic figure that translates culturally on and off the court.

That's why I don't take the 50-60s era player stat that seriously considered the early age of basketball is very amateur. The poster from that era obviously will have a bias toward their era. People will never forget the 90s era. The 90s basketball is view as the golden age. It's a pure form of basketball than today more like entertainment. The competition among players and teams are much stronger due to the lack of money involved. It will never be replicated. We are moving toward an era of entertainment and competition suffer as a result.
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Re: RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #2 

Post#56 » by Hornet Mania » Sat Oct 17, 2020 12:17 pm

Sublime187 wrote:
Spoiler:
Gregoire wrote:
2klegend wrote:Not really. I have Jordan on top for a variety of reasons including his accolades so far triumph Lebron. But why Lebron on top when he has fewer accolades and achieving less in his career?

I already conceded that if Lebron brings in another title and MVP, even if it's 5>6, I will have Lebron as GOAT and that is how much I value his game and really value his longer prime.


I think main problem here that a lot of people didnt see MJ live (only youtube) and are very numbers or stats (or rings oriented) and sometimes its very difficult to explain formulate in sentences why he was best (not bias, but just he has "it" - then you know we will win regardless). Yeah, Im failed to explain it properly too. Even at his peak, if we take only numbers - Shaq, Lebron are close, but if you would watch he games, playoffs of them (not today, but in respective live situation and moment) - only Jordan looked inhuman. Even "clutch" stats dont paint picture. Such "clutch" moments, momentum shifts could be in 1 or 2 quarters. Overall, I think eye-test here is underrated.

My vote:
1. MJ - best peak ever, had him 1st.
2. Kareem - best longevity ever + skyhook
3. Shaq - second peak and talent overall after MJ (maybe even better than Lebron).


I actually look at it the opposite way most times. On youtube all you get are highlights. Showing the best times of MJ's career like he never did anything wrong because there is not much out there proving the contrary position. So, people don't realize that MJ also had many failures in his career. Series where he did not play well. A lot of people don't even know he got eliminated in 95...So, I think it actually works to his advantage in that sense.

A guy like LeBron most people on this board have likely seen most of his career. All the ups and downs that a career has which they did not get to witness first hand with MJ. So, people come on here that have maybe viewed 5% or less of MJ's career and think he never did anything wrong.


I think in all reality most viewers only watch the highlights for both players and not full games. It's especially easy with social media and probably one of the big contributors to the dip we've seen in ratings the last few years, people can just digest the game in five minutes the night after.

One thing I will say about the difference in being able to see Jordan during his prime as opposed to years later via highlights is that you lose sight of how competitive he was on both sides of the floor every game of every season. Jordan's pathological competitiveness certainly shines through in the playoffs, but it's also what made him great on a nightly basis and produced such insane stats as him not losing three games in a row from Dec 1990 - June 1998.

Lebron is an incredible player, he'd rank only behind Jordan/Kareem imo, but he has definitely loafed on defense during the regular season the last 5+ years. Of course in the playoffs he turns it on, but I do value the game-to-game consistency to some degree and have to knock him a bit for it compared to Jordan. It's far less drastic, but similar in a sense to how I feel about Shaq. Could Shaq dominate like no other? Yes, I believe he has the GOAT peak, but Shaq only cared sometimes. Lebron has saved his true best effort for the playoffs since basically 2015 so he loses value as a regular season performer, I do think there is value in grinding every game like that. I don't point this out to bash Lebron, but simply as an example of something that isn't necessarily discernible on Youtube highlights after the fact.

From what I've read of Lebron fans on the General Board, most are no doubt quite young, Jordan's failures are well-known and the context is stretched as far as possible to demean him. It's just par for the course with super fans unfortunately.
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Re: RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #2 

Post#57 » by 2klegend » Sat Oct 17, 2020 12:18 pm

Sublime187 wrote:
Spoiler:
Gregoire wrote:
2klegend wrote:Not really. I have Jordan on top for a variety of reasons including his accolades so far triumph Lebron. But why Lebron on top when he has fewer accolades and achieving less in his career?

I already conceded that if Lebron brings in another title and MVP, even if it's 5>6, I will have Lebron as GOAT and that is how much I value his game and really value his longer prime.


I think main problem here that a lot of people didnt see MJ live (only youtube) and are very numbers or stats (or rings oriented) and sometimes its very difficult to explain formulate in sentences why he was best (not bias, but just he has "it" - then you know we will win regardless). Yeah, Im failed to explain it properly too. Even at his peak, if we take only numbers - Shaq, Lebron are close, but if you would watch he games, playoffs of them (not today, but in respective live situation and moment) - only Jordan looked inhuman. Even "clutch" stats dont paint picture. Such "clutch" moments, momentum shifts could be in 1 or 2 quarters. Overall, I think eye-test here is underrated.

My vote:
1. MJ - best peak ever, had him 1st.
2. Kareem - best longevity ever + skyhook
3. Shaq - second peak and talent overall after MJ (maybe even better than Lebron).


I actually look at it the opposite way most times. On youtube all you get are highlights. Showing the best times of MJ's career like he never did anything wrong because there is not much out there proving the contrary position. So, people don't realize that MJ also had many failures in his career. Series where he did not play well. A lot of people don't even know he got eliminated in 95...So, I think it actually works to his advantage in that sense.

A guy like LeBron most people on this board have likely seen most of his career. All the ups and downs that a career has which they did not get to witness first hand with MJ. So, people come on here that have maybe viewed 5% or less of MJ's career and think he never did anything wrong.

Every All-Time player loses a playoff series, what is your point? Nobody said Jordan never lose but how he loses it? Is there any specific playoff series that Jordan underperform? I can name a few of Lebron's underperformance that causing his team to lose very badly and embarrassingly.
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Re: RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #2 

Post#58 » by Owly » Sat Oct 17, 2020 12:58 pm

Hornet Mania wrote:
Sublime187 wrote:
Spoiler:
Gregoire wrote:
I think main problem here that a lot of people didnt see MJ live (only youtube) and are very numbers or stats (or rings oriented) and sometimes its very difficult to explain formulate in sentences why he was best (not bias, but just he has "it" - then you know we will win regardless). Yeah, Im failed to explain it properly too. Even at his peak, if we take only numbers - Shaq, Lebron are close, but if you would watch he games, playoffs of them (not today, but in respective live situation and moment) - only Jordan looked inhuman. Even "clutch" stats dont paint picture. Such "clutch" moments, momentum shifts could be in 1 or 2 quarters. Overall, I think eye-test here is underrated.

My vote:
1. MJ - best peak ever, had him 1st.
2. Kareem - best longevity ever + skyhook
3. Shaq - second peak and talent overall after MJ (maybe even better than Lebron).


I actually look at it the opposite way most times. On youtube all you get are highlights. Showing the best times of MJ's career like he never did anything wrong because there is not much out there proving the contrary position. So, people don't realize that MJ also had many failures in his career. Series where he did not play well. A lot of people don't even know he got eliminated in 95...So, I think it actually works to his advantage in that sense.

A guy like LeBron most people on this board have likely seen most of his career. All the ups and downs that a career has which they did not get to witness first hand with MJ. So, people come on here that have maybe viewed 5% or less of MJ's career and think he never did anything wrong.


I think in all reality most viewers only watch the highlights for both players and not full games. It's especially easy with social media and probably one of the big contributors to the dip we've seen in ratings the last few years, people can just digest the game in five minutes the night after.

One thing I will say about the difference in being able to see Jordan during his prime as opposed to years later via highlights is that you lose sight of how competitive he was on both sides of the floor every game of every season. Jordan's pathological competitiveness certainly shines through in the playoffs, but it's also what made him great on a nightly basis and produced such insane stats as him not losing three games in a row from Dec 1990 - June 1998.

Lebron is an incredible player, he'd rank only behind Jordan/Kareem imo, but he has definitely loafed on defense during the regular season the last 5+ years. Of course in the playoffs he turns it on, but I do value the game-to-game consistency to some degree and have to knock him a bit for it compared to Jordan. It's far less drastic, but similar in a sense to how I feel about Shaq. Could Shaq dominate like no other? Yes, I believe he has the GOAT peak, but Shaq only cared sometimes. Lebron has saved his true best effort for the playoffs since basically 2015 so he loses value as a regular season performer, I do think there is value in grinding every game like that. I don't point this out to bash Lebron, but simply as an example of something that isn't necessarily discernible on Youtube highlights after the fact.

From what I've read of Lebron fans on the General Board, most are no doubt quite young, Jordan's failures are well-known and the context is stretched as far as possible to demean him. It's just par for the course with super fans unfortunately.

On the other hand even if you do think Jordan's competitiveness is insufficiently highlighted, mythologized (and he certainly was competitive) ...

1) There is arguably a trade-off here with him taking those retirements. An argument that he burnt out going night-after-night for 8 full seasons (plus 18 and the Celtics series in '86) and near two years off allowed him to get to full intensity more easily. Fwiw, I'd take the extra seasons of LeBron for the marginal extra effort from Jordan, especially given ...

2) We can discern (to whatever degree of accuracy) LeBron's total impact through impact metrics. I'd posit he's pretty darn good on those, but regarless, whilst he might have even even better with more effort, people can see the actual value provided which is the main thing (rather than what hypothetical more he might have provided).
Owly
Analyst
Posts: 3,114
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Re: RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #2 

Post#59 » by Owly » Sat Oct 17, 2020 1:06 pm

2klegend wrote:
Texas Chuck wrote:
2klegend wrote:I mean in 10 years, people will remember Lebron as one of the All-Time Greats just like they remember the like of Wilt, Kareem. The dominant player in his era but will likely not transpire a new group of kids growing up wanting to be like Mike, the icon. It is not a coincident Jordan sells more shoes than Lebron despite already retired. That is an amazing legacy I'm talking about.


What is the relevance of any of this? AI is going to be a bigger cultural icon than Steve Nash. He wasn't better at basketball.

And it goes without saying Lebron will be inspiring more kids over the next decade than Mike.

Not really. AI would kill Nash in a 1vs1 basketball game of death but Nash talent is making others competing at a higher level than AI.

I'm not sure about that many kids growing up idolizing Lebron style of play.

You understand that passing is part of basketball, right?

And for what little it's worth at this point, more kids growing up identified with with Muggsy than Jabbar or Shaq. Being more relatable, marketable seems to me a separate thing from basketball performance.
Jordan Syndrome
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And1: 474
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Re: RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #2 

Post#60 » by Jordan Syndrome » Sat Oct 17, 2020 1:21 pm

2klegend wrote:
Sublime187 wrote:
Spoiler:
Gregoire wrote:
I think main problem here that a lot of people didnt see MJ live (only youtube) and are very numbers or stats (or rings oriented) and sometimes its very difficult to explain formulate in sentences why he was best (not bias, but just he has "it" - then you know we will win regardless). Yeah, Im failed to explain it properly too. Even at his peak, if we take only numbers - Shaq, Lebron are close, but if you would watch he games, playoffs of them (not today, but in respective live situation and moment) - only Jordan looked inhuman. Even "clutch" stats dont paint picture. Such "clutch" moments, momentum shifts could be in 1 or 2 quarters. Overall, I think eye-test here is underrated.

My vote:
1. MJ - best peak ever, had him 1st.
2. Kareem - best longevity ever + skyhook
3. Shaq - second peak and talent overall after MJ (maybe even better than Lebron).


I actually look at it the opposite way most times. On youtube all you get are highlights. Showing the best times of MJ's career like he never did anything wrong because there is not much out there proving the contrary position. So, people don't realize that MJ also had many failures in his career. Series where he did not play well. A lot of people don't even know he got eliminated in 95...So, I think it actually works to his advantage in that sense.

A guy like LeBron most people on this board have likely seen most of his career. All the ups and downs that a career has which they did not get to witness first hand with MJ. So, people come on here that have maybe viewed 5% or less of MJ's career and think he never did anything wrong.

Every All-Time player loses a playoff series, what is your point?


Not true. Alex Caruso has never lost in the post-season.

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