All-NBA Teams Project: 1996-00 All-NBA Second Team

[mailmp]

The more strawmen you throw out the more obvious you make it to everyone that not only do you not know what any of these typically base level considerations are, but also that you cannot even be bothered to read what is in front of you.

[70sFan]

Then how far are we going to take it. Was Shane Battier better than Alex English? At this point in his career Stockton was basically a top tier roleplayer. He was a glorified Ricky Rubio, or a José Calderon with defence. Which is of course still a good player, but his portability in no way means he was a better player to have on your team in terms of title contention. If the Jazz could have made a one-for-one trade for Payton in the late 1990s, they would have been dumb not to, and they probably could have gotten a title out of it.

You could literally double Stockton’s portability value in Ben’s calculus and 1998 Payton still grades as a better CORP player than any Stockton season from that period.

Stockton averaged 16/10 in 37 mpg in 1997 playoffs. This is not roleplayer production at all...

Do you really think that only volume scoring matters?

[Dutchball97]

The more strawmen you throw out the more obvious you make it to everyone that not only do you not know what you are talking about, but also that you cannot even be bothered to read.

You've been lurking on here for multiple years, at least that's what you say, and you just have to make an account now? Go through your posts, how many of those are calling people dumb or blind or whatever else for not agreeing with your subjective opinion on how good players are?

Why would you make an account for a board where people with different opinions come when you can only stomach your own opinion and nobody else's? If you're asking me, you're probably better off not bothering with all these dumb people like me and stop posting on the forum but that's just me.

[mailmp]

Stockton averaged 16/10 in 37 mpg in 1997 playoffs. This is not roleplayer production at all...

Do you really think that only volume scoring matters?

Yes that is exactly what I am saying, it is all about volume scoring.

That said, scoring is nowhere near as useless as you are making it out to be (and again I must point to Taylor, the man who has built his brand off the three principles of passing, shooting, and defence, continuing to say Payton was demonstrably better). It pressures defences, it demands attention, it creates opportunities for your teammates, and if the Jazz had someone other than Malone who could have provided that, they almost certainly are better able to strain the Bulls and potentially upset them.

And being a role-player is not bad. Shane Battier was a role-player, and I grade him as borderline all-NBA impact in 2007. But it is easy to take glorification of those types of players waaaaay too far — as is happening with Stockton.

[Dutchball97]

Still two more eras to go with Stockton as someone who is certainly making the teams. We have to hope nobody else is as hated/underrated as Stockton by this guy or this is going to be a long ass project.

[mailmp]

The more strawmen you throw out the more obvious you make it to everyone that not only do you not know what you are talking about, but also that you cannot even be bothered to read.

You've been lurking on here for multiple years, at least that's what you say

Yes, it is actually a conspiracy, good one.

and you just have to make an account now?

Yeah I wonder what major project just started that could have provoked that. Hmmmmmm...

Go through your posts, how many of those are calling people dumb or blind or whatever else for not agreeing with your subjective opinion on how good players are?

Ah, so now your defence of BPM is “it is all just subjective!” Good one.

Why would you make an account for a board where people with different opinions come when you can only stomach your own opinion and nobody else's?

The point of the board is not for everyone to blandly offer their own opinion based on effectively nothing, and leave it at that. Again, condolences if somehow you developed that impression.

If you're asking me, you're probably better off not bothering with all these dumb people like me and stop posting on the forum but that's just me.

Still a big fan of the community in general, because like I said, most people here tend to want to go beyond basketball-reference.

[mailmp]

Still two more eras to go with Stockton as someone who is certainly making the teams. We have to hope nobody else is as hated/underrated as Stockton by this guy or this is going to be a long ass project.

If you keep crying about needing to defend weakly considered positions, yes, I suppose it will be. You could save us some time and do the extra work, but alas.

[Dutchball97]

The more strawmen you throw out the more obvious you make it to everyone that not only do you not know what you are talking about, but also that you cannot even be bothered to read.

You've been lurking on here for multiple years, at least that's what you say

Yes, it is actually a conspiracy, good one.

and you just have to make an account now?

Yeah I wonder what major project just started that could have provoked that. Hmmmmmm...

Go through your posts, how many of those are calling people dumb or blind or whatever else for not agreeing with your subjective opinion on how good players are?

Ah, so now your defence of BPM is “it is all just subjective!” Good one.

Why would you make an account for a board where people with different opinions come when you can only stomach your own opinion and nobody else's?

The point of the board is not for everyone to blandly offer their own opinion based on effectively nothing, and leave it at that. Again, condolences if somehow you developed that impression.

If you're asking me, you're probably better off not bothering with all these dumb people like me and stop posting on the forum but that's just me.

Still a big fan of the community in general, because like I said, most people here tend to want to go beyond basketball-reference.

Can't blame me for trying to get you out of here. Out of your 40 posts, how many of those have been constructive, positive interactions? I'm going to set the over/under on 2.5.

You're still going on about bkref lmao, you're still claiming to be a "better" fan than everyone else because you have a crush on Payton. If you want to be a nuisance go ahead I guess. Become the next Skip Bayless, live your dreams.

[70sFan]

Stockton averaged 16/10 in 37 mpg in 1997 playoffs. This is not roleplayer production at all...

Do you really think that only volume scoring matters?

Yes that is exactly what I am saying, it is all about volume scoring.

That said, scoring is nowhere near as useless as you are making it out to be (and again I must point to Taylor, the man who has built his brand off the three principles of passing, shooting, and defence, continuing to say Payton was demonstrably better). It pressures defences, it demands attention, it creates opportunities for your teammates, and if the Jazz had someone other than Malone who could have provided that, they almost certainly are better able to strain the Bulls and potentially upset them.

And being a role-player is not bad. Shane Battier was a role-player, and I grade him as borderline all-NBA impact in 2007. But it is easy to take glorification of those types of players waaaaay to far — as is happening with Stockton.

So Kyle Lowry is also a roleplayer to you?

[mailmp]

Can't blame me for trying to get you out of here.

Actually I can, it is cowardly and a laughably clear signal that you know your means of assessment crumbles under the slightest challenge.

Out of your 40 posts, how many of those have been constructive, positive interactions? I'm going to set the over/under on 2.5.

Everything I have posted has been demonstrably more constructive than pointing at BPM and calling it a day.

You're still going on about bkref lmao

And I will as long as you keep refusing to conduct any real analysis past it

you're still claiming to be a "better" fan than everyone else

Nope, you are a much better fan than I am. But I am not trying to be a fan.

because you have a crush on Payton.

No, not sure Payton cracks my top ten favourite point guards, but appreciate the lazy and baseless ad hominem. Given how triggered you evidently are over these Basketball 102 criticisms of Stockton, seems like you are the one in danger of stanning.

If you want to be a nuisance go ahead I guess. Become the next Skip Bayless, live your dreams.

Hilarious attempt at an insult considering Skip Bayless has about as much knowledge past basketball-reference as you do — scratch that, no, he at least has a bit of historical knowledge. If you aspired to be Skip Bayless, that would tragically probably qualify as an improvement.

[mailmp]

Stockton averaged 16/10 in 37 mpg in 1997 playoffs. This is not roleplayer production at all...

Do you really think that only volume scoring matters?

Yes that is exactly what I am saying, it is all about volume scoring.

That said, scoring is nowhere near as useless as you are making it out to be (and again I must point to Taylor, the man who has built his brand off the three principles of passing, shooting, and defence, continuing to say Payton was demonstrably better). It pressures defences, it demands attention, it creates opportunities for your teammates, and if the Jazz had someone other than Malone who could have provided that, they almost certainly are better able to strain the Bulls and potentially upset them.

And being a role-player is not bad. Shane Battier was a role-player, and I grade him as borderline all-NBA impact in 2007. But it is easy to take glorification of those types of players waaaaay to far — as is happening with Stockton.

So Kyle Lowry is also a roleplayer to you?

In 2019 he could probably be framed that way. But the difference is 2019 was a situational outlier rather than the basis for his career.

[HeartBreakKid]

Comparing Jose Calderon's offense to John Stockton's is all time insulting, especially in the post season.

I don't even know what a glorified Ricky Rubio means. Rubio and Calderon aren't similar players...

[Dutchball97]

Can't wait for him to find out I'm actually much lower on Stockton than the average poster here and that this is about best seasons, not best careers/best players.

[mailmp]

The fact it is about best seasons is my point. Stockton rates highly in career because of his longevity, not because he any sort of notable peak (let alone years past his peak). If you ever bothered to read, you would have caught that, but the fact you are apparently arguing for Stockton’s peak over his career really puts a lot of this in perspective lmao.

[Dutchball97]

The fact it is about best seasons is my point. Stockton rates highly in career because of his longevity, not because he any sort of notable peak (let alone years past his peak). If you ever bothered to read, you would have caught that.

Some people rate Stockton very highly (like top 20) because of his incredible longevity, while his peak wasn't really close to top 20 imo. In any of the previous era Stockton's 96/97 season wouldn't have been close to a first team selection, let along the second team selection he's going to get here. The late 90s were a period where there was a relative lull in talent though and Payton's peak definitely doesn't impress me any more than Stockton's best performance even in this 5 year period.

I take it you're also going to vote Joe Dumars first team because he was able to guard Jordan effectively?

[mailmp]

Ah more strawmen. No, but I fully expect you to continue overrating the hell out of Stockton because of basketball reference and put him over Reggie, Drexler, Porter, KJ, and Price, all without a second thought.

[70sFan]

Ah more strawmen. No, but I fully expect you to continue overrating the hell out of Stockton because of basketball reference and put him over Reggie, Drexler, Porter, KJ, and Price, all without a second thought.

So anyone who has Stockton over Porter, Price and Payton only rely on basketball reference? I don't want to say that, but you shouldn't act like your opinions are facts.

[mailmp]

No, just in this particular instance that seems to be the case.

[70sFan]

No, just in this particular instance that seems to be the case.

I don't know, plenty of knowledgeable posters are high on Stockton's prime, not only longevity. It's one thing to disagree with it, but it's another to calling out others for having different opinions.

Stockton wasn't Nash on offense because he wasn't agressive enough and his halfcourt scoring was more limited. Gary Payton wasn't Nash on offense either though.

[Dutchball97]

No, just in this particular instance that seems to be the case.

And it isn't even the case in this particular instance.