ReaGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #6 (Wilt Chamberlain)

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ReaGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #6 (Wilt Chamberlain) 

Post#1 » by trex_8063 » Sat Oct 24, 2020 6:05 pm

2020 List
1. LeBron James
2. Michael Jordan
3. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
4. Bill Russell
5. Tim Duncan
6. ???

Spoiler:
Ainosterhaspie wrote:.

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Clyde Frazier wrote:.

DeKlaw wrote:.

Doctor MJ wrote:.

DQuinn1575 wrote:.

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drza wrote:.

Dutchball97 wrote:.

Eddy_JukeZ wrote:.

eminence wrote:.

Franco wrote:.

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Gregoire wrote:.

Hal14 wrote:.

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Hornet Mania wrote:.

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LA Bird wrote:.

lebron3-14-3 wrote:.

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Matzer wrote:.

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O_6 wrote:.

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70sFan wrote:.

876Stephen wrote:.

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This thread will be open ~48 hours [or marginally longer if close and going well], unless there are extenuating circumstances (such as an ultra-close vote with low turnout initially). Anticipate this thread concluding around 2-3pm EST on Monday.

Arenas of competition to be considered are the NBA/ABA/BAA, and the NBL (back as far as '47); highschool, college, and international play are excluded (except perhaps as a "tie-breaker" consideration).
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Re: ReaGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #6 

Post#2 » by trex_8063 » Sat Oct 24, 2020 6:15 pm

As indicated by my alternates in last round, this spot likely comes down to another one of the great big-men: Shaq or Wilt [leaning Wilt]. Likely my 3rd pick [2nd alternate] will be Magic, though dark-horse candidates like Hakeem, KG, or Bird [even Kobe??] aren't 100% off the table.
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Re: ReaGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #6 

Post#3 » by eminence » Sat Oct 24, 2020 6:22 pm

KG will very likely be my top guy, but very open to different options for 2/3. All those TRex mentioned and Oscar too. I might even listen on Dirk (though I'm pretty low on his defense).

How do people feel about Shaq's longevity?
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Re: ReaGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #6 

Post#4 » by Baski » Sat Oct 24, 2020 6:36 pm

eminence wrote:KG will very likely be my top guy, but very open to different options for 2/3. All those TRex mentioned and Oscar too. I might even listen on Dirk (though I'm pretty low on his defense).

How do people feel about Shaq's longevity?

Pretty underrated imo. 1992-2006 is a very long time of elite-very good play.
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Re: ReaGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #6 

Post#5 » by penbeast0 » Sat Oct 24, 2020 6:53 pm

Until someone convinces me, going with the BEASTS . . .

1. Wilt
2. Shaq
(As I've said, I think both Wilt and Shaq suffer from the perception that, as arguably two most unbelievable combinations of size, strength, and athleticism to even walk the earth, they should have been better than they were. That is probably true; BUT, the degree of dominance they actually put produced was just incredible in their prime despite any issues that they had.)
3. Mikan (open to persuasion especially here as the chance of Mikan going in soon is very slim but he was by far the most dominant player left but with by far the weakest league that he dominated)
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Re: ReaGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #6 

Post#6 » by ZeppelinPage » Sat Oct 24, 2020 7:02 pm

1. Wilt Chamberlain
Most dominant player, at the most important position, with the highest overall impact. Lead two of the greatest teams of all time for their era, with the '67 Sixers having the highest Off Rtg and SRS yet for their time; and the '72 Lakers having the 3rd highest SRS of all time, as well as the highest OPP SRS in the playoffs and winning a ring. Played in (easily) the hardest era in regards to defense because of the rules and playstyle, especially for a big man. The spacing was abysmal, which also made the illegal defense rule non-existent, allowing easy doubles and triples on Wilt. On top of that, the competition of the league in comparison to the talent available on his team had the greatest gap of any player--Wilt had the worst teammates of any superstar in history for most of his career. He was playing against a team that was head and shoulders above the rest of the league, with the greatest coach of all time. In my opinion, for players like Wilt, Oscar and West, there was no other time in NBA history where it was harder to win a ring, simply because Red Auerbach had collected an overwhelming amount of talent in comparison to other teams.

In terms of playoff numbers, Wilt suffered little drop-off, which is incredible considering he was playing against the greatest defensive team and center of all time. Consistently lead a team significantly less talented to game 7s vs the 7-8+ SRS Celtics. Proved he could play defense at a high level later on in his career, but even earlier he would go to another level in the playoffs, where his teams consistently performed better on the defensive side of the ball. He had multiple all-time playoff runs (and that's without stat padding in the 1st round,) especially in '64, where he posted a .323 WS/48--only LeBron, Jordan, and Kareem have posted a higher mark (again, less stat padding, no steals/blocks accounted for, and facing the greatest defensive dynasty ever.)

Wilt also unfortunately played in an era where nutrition, technology and game knowledge were lesser than any player after him. He would usually have to play 3 to 4 straight games in a row, sometimes even in the playoffs, playing 48 minutes. I even found examples where he was playing 5 straight games in a row. He would often not get home till early in the morning and have to play that day, for multiple days in a row, over the course of an 82 game season. This amount of workload is unfathomable for other players and no doubt contributed to injuries over the years, which affected his overall condition. This is something that LeBron and Jordan did not have to go through. The reason I mention this is that Wilt could have been even better in later eras.

The fact that Wilt managed to come out of the 60s with a ring is impressive in and of itself, the talent the Boston Celtics possessed was comparable on a modern scale to a team like the 17 Warriors or 14 Spurs, but for a decade. Unfortunately, he did not have the talent around him that was necessary to compete for a ring until '67.

2. Shaquille O'Neal
Most efficient scorer of his era, greatest offensive center ever, and solid defender that always performed well in the playoffs, even vs tough competition. Also has the strongest finals performances of all time.

3. Magic Johnson
Hugely impactful on offense, lead multiple title teams throughout the 80s and performed very well for most of his career in the playoffs.
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Re: ReaGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #6 

Post#7 » by Joao Saraiva » Sat Oct 24, 2020 7:16 pm

Votes
1. Wilt Chamberlain
2. Shaq
3. Hakeem

My vote goes to Wilt. I believe he is the last one with a real GOAT case, so I think he should be in the top 5.

He has countless individual records, records that will most likely never be beaten.

He was versatile and prove he could do it all. He scored, he assisted, he rebounded and was a defensive anchor towards the end of his career and finally achieving the team success he desired.

He has the accodales to back him up with 4 MVPs and 1 FMVP.

I'm also a bit higher on his longevity than his number of high quality seasons suggest, because he gave so much production in a tooon of minutes. His longevity per quality minute is definitely something huge, even if it seems a bit far from Duncan years wise.

A lot of people call him a loser. It's not like he was making those stats and not making th playoffs, or losing to teams that didn't have quality.

I believe he was not uncoachable. I believe he was so good that some coaches did not understand how to utilize him better. I think if he had a great coach he could have been among the greatest winners of all time, and if guided properly many would take away that label he got unfairly. He proved he could do anything, maybe he just needed better guidance. Like any star... LeBron evolved a lot under Spo and the Heat, MJ under PJ, Russell had a great coach and organization too, Tim Duncan had Pop and Robinson... Wilt was never used to maximize his potential, and still he did what he did.

He's probably also the GOAT athlete if that's worth something. That and the fact that he was an individual force so big that the NBA had to change rules because of the way he played. That speaks a lot about his individual dominance.

To sum it up:
- Only guy left with a case for GOAT in my point of view;
- Countless NBA records that will probably stand for another 50/70/100 years or more!
- Versatile player who proved he could be a scorer, rebounder, assist others or anchor a defense;
- Has the accodales to back him up and 4 MVPs is a big deal for me;
- 2 rings
- Not in the ideal situation, misguided because he was so great that even coaches got confused on how to use him;
- A lot of rules actually changed to stop Wilt. A lot more than any other NBA player. That alone shows you the individual dominance!
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Re: ReaGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #6 

Post#8 » by limbo » Sat Oct 24, 2020 7:26 pm

Baski wrote:Pretty underrated imo. 1992-2006 is a very long time of elite-very good play.


'92 Shaq doesn't exist. '93 Shaq was good, but not as good as '12 Dirk, for example.

Shaq's real prime is 1994-2006, with the caveat that he missed a lot of regular season games, and that his 2005 and 2006 Playoff performances were not good, despite his team winning in 2006... His scoring volume and assist went down considerably, he was shooting 41% from the FT line and he was turning the ball over at a record rate for his career. His defense regressed as well...
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Re: ReaGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #6 

Post#9 » by Dr Positivity » Sat Oct 24, 2020 7:26 pm

1. Wilt Chamberlain
2. Shaquille O'Neal
3. Kevin Garnett

I voted for Wilt last time - clear generational player, elite in nearly all areas, played the hardest competition ever and still had a ton of success.

Shaq gets the edge over the rest who are close due to all time great finals performances. I'm high on KG as well and don't blame him for weak Wolves franchise. His scoring is good not great but combination of defense, spacing passing is ideal.
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Re: ReaGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #6 

Post#10 » by eminence » Sat Oct 24, 2020 7:38 pm

Is anyone else willing to consider Mikan here or should I leave that one off for a few rounds? He's the last guy left who truly dominated an era imo (with NBL had a run of 7 titles in 8 seasons).
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Re: ReaGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #6 

Post#11 » by Big NBA Fan » Sat Oct 24, 2020 7:46 pm

Shaq's real prime is 1994-2006, with the caveat that he missed a lot of regular season games, and that his 2005 and 2006 Playoff performances were not good, despite his team winning in 2006... His scoring volume and assist went down considerably, he was shooting 41% from the FT line and he was turning the ball over at a record rate for his career. His defense regressed as well...


I HATE Shaq on a personal level, but he deserves a bit of a pass for his below-average 05 playoffs. They were poor because he was battling a really bad thigh injury suffered just before the playoffs that never went away until the off-season.

He only missed 7 games in the RS (a great achievement given how injury-prone he was) due to being in tremendous shape; he was only 325 pounds, which helped his mobility on defense (Heat were the # 5 ranked defense in the NBA that year with him anchoring it) and helped him stay healthy until right before the playoffs.

He finished that RS averaging 23/10/3/2/ on 60% shooting (led the league) with the 2nd highest PER in the NBA at 27 (Just behind KG and tied with Timmy) while leading his team to a 59-23 season with only one other star-level player (Wade) and a bad bench except for Zo.

His playoff numbers dropped to a really bad 17/7 because he had no lift due to injury and they sat him out of the a few games in the 2nd round to try and get him healthy when it was obvious he wasn't moving well. It was the first time in his career where he ever missed playoff games.

His 05 season is quite under-rated and I will always believe he should have won the MVP that year. He was in great shape, extremely focused and motivated, and would have made the Finals that year if him and Wade didn't get hurt. Remember, they had the defending champions down 3-2 before Wade's severe rib injury cost them that Game 7. They still would have lost to San Antonio, but it's better to make the Finals and lose than to not make the Finals at all.

But, yes, Shaq's downfall started in 06; he only had one dominant stretch that season which was the ECF where he dominated Ben/Rasheed which continues to make his Finals no-show against Dampier all the more puzzling.

05 is one of his best defensive seasons.

His peak was insane (00-02) and he had many other awesome offensive seasons. His only bad years from 93-05 were 97 (too many missed games and a lousy performance against Utah in the playoffs) and 99 (horrific defense, terrible in the playoffs and a disappointing RS record).

He would be thought of more fondly if he had retired sooner and didn't become a ring-chaser and a journeyman.

I think he gets under-rated these days because of how ugly and lengthy his decline was which overshadows what a monster he was from 94-05.

He was a massive star off the court before he became the biggest punching bag in the NBA after he made the horrible mistake of forcing his way out of Miami.

It was a stunning, sad, shocking fall from grace for a Top 10 player of all time; one of the ugliest declines by any athlete ever both on and off the court.

His peak was Top 5 of all time, his longevity is under-rated, but he didn't age gracefully at all and it was- as I just mentioned - tough to watch.
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Re: ReaGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #6 

Post#12 » by mailmp » Sat Oct 24, 2020 7:49 pm

1. Wilt Chamberlain
Any of Wilt, Hakeem, Shaq, or Magic are fine for these next four spots. Magic lacks longevity; Hakeem lacks some regular season impact and may have some overstated postseason numbers against middling defensive oppositions; Shaq has seriousness concerns and perhaps exaggerated peak numbers in the context of a league at a general loss for elite centres; and Wilt has impact criticisms based on his lesser understanding of the game compared to Russell. But the comparison is not with Russell. Of these players Wilt likely maximised his career the least (and seeing as he is not literally Russell, yes, that is something coaches need to address), and even then he was still the best player on two all-time teams and pushed the seemingly unbeatable Bill Russell harder than anyone else.

2. Hakeem Olajuwon
Again, basically all the names I just mentioned are the same tier. Little bit harsher on Magic because of the longevity, but effectively forced HIV retirement before you have shown any real dropoff is a pretty unique countervailing circumstance, so not going to get up in arms over those who do not want to penalise him for that. But as for Hakeem: won a title with the weakest supporting cast of the past forty years, and won a second title against arguably the toughest gauntlet in league history with a bottom five supporting cast of the past forty years. Strong claim to best defender post-Russell, incredible postseason elevator in general (even if, again, some of the offensive numbers are a tad overstated by the competition), and stacked right up there with Jordan throughout his career (particularly on a season-to-season basis). By comparison with Shaq, I think Shaq’s peak gets overrated by circumstance — most of the top centre competition had dropped off, his pnr weaknesses were not really going to be a major liability in the early 2000s, and I still personally believe he loses in the playoffs during his “GOAT” individual season had Duncan been healthy.

3. Shaquille O’Neal
That all said, Shaq does have fantastic postseason results and is a profoundly dominant player on paper and in actuality (fun exercise to consider how he could have looked in place of Wilt). Does have commitment concerns, but those are why he is not in discussions for top three, and why he deservedly only won a single MVP; they are not reasons why he deserves to be slotted in at ten or anything. Very close call with Magic. If Magic just had a little more longevity...
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Re: ReaGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #6 

Post#13 » by Dr Positivity » Sat Oct 24, 2020 7:49 pm

eminence wrote:Is anyone else willing to consider Mikan here or should I leave that one off for a few rounds? He's the last guy left who truly dominated an era imo (with NBL had a run of 7 titles in 8 seasons).


For me no, even if I valued 48-51 Mikan as much as the best 4 year stretches of any of these players (weighing in era dominance vs weaker era), he still loses on longevity. I view Mikan from 52-54 as "only" being prime Duncan or Hakeem-ish level vs his era (still the best defensive player, but he had been clearly passed on offense), which hurts his case compared to if he had just annihilated the league and then retired. He had already shown to be human in his last 3 prime seasons as the pre shot clock era got better or the rules changed to stop him, rule changes that players like Wilt or Shaq would have eaten without. The Lakers also were really stacked from 52-54 so they didn't need him to be any more than that Duncan level impact to win the title those years.
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Re: ReaGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #6 

Post#14 » by No-more-rings » Sat Oct 24, 2020 7:51 pm

I’d generally agree that Wilt, Shaq and Hakeem should be the next three in some order. Magic and Bird’s lack of major defensive impact and longevity keep them below those 3 imo. Not trying to knock Bird’s defense, but it’s not in the realm of Wilt/Hakeem and even well below what a focused Shaq could do.

I’ve usually gone with Wilt over Shaq, much better defender, and much more durable.

Why is Shaq, and i’m not sure this has ever been effectively explained, pretty unanimously ranked above Hakeem?

Now let’s think about this, if Hakeem got to play 8 years with Kobe(albeit young but great in a few of those years), plus 3 seasons of Wade basically in his prime that he wouldn’t also have at least 4 rings? Also, let’s not forget Nash+Amare.

Some things going in his favor here:

- Significantly higher defensive value over their careers

- Could shoot and had some range, unlike Oneal which stretched the floor giving teammates some space to operate. I’m not saying it’s as valuable Shaq’s inside gravity, but he’s drawing bigs out of the paint which Shaq didn’t do allowing for guards to attack easier. Or at least i’d assume so.

- Passing probably ain’t a big point for either, neither were special early on then improved, Hakeem was maybe a better passer at their best.

-Shaq really has no longevity edge, and you can arguably even give Hakeem the edge there. Their total minutes in the regular season and playoffs combined are comparable, Hakeem likely gave more game to game effort.

Both are dominant forces in the playoffs, though Hakeem probably had fewer mediocre series. Shaq half the time seemed to struggle against the Spurs, and they were a great defense, so i won’t take too much away but Hakeem just in general seemed a little less likely to be slowed down.

- Hakeem wasn’t a liability at the free throw line

I’m not saying Hakeem should for sure rank ahead, but I’m curious to why so many are confident in that?
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Re: ReaGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #6 

Post#15 » by 90sAllDecade » Sat Oct 24, 2020 7:54 pm

1. Hakeem Olajuwon

-The only player in NBA history who won MVP, DPOY and Finals MVP in the same year.

-One of only four players in NBA history with a Quadruple Double. He also almost had a second but the assist was removed, with 29 pts 18 rebs 11 blocks and 9 assists.

-He was arguably the greatest playoff center of all time, raising his game in the second season for his career when others got worse from the regular season.

Here is video of his quadruple double, stay and watch the ending interview as well.




Sports Illustrated wrote:THE STUFF OF DREAMS WITH A PERFORMANCE FOR THE AGES, HAKEEM OLAJUWON LIFTED HIS ROCKETS BACK INTO THE FINALS


The videotaped pictures suddenly grab Rudy Tomjanovich, pictures
that leap off the oversized television screen in his office. He
will be in the midst of dull work, trying to dissect the
tendencies and weaknesses of some Houston Rocket opponent in this
long playoff spring, when his attention will be drawn to his own
team. Stop, rewind. He will watch Hakeem Olajuwon in action with a
new and different eye.

Stop, rewind. Hakeem has the ball in that familiar spot, low, on
the left side, back to the basket. He is spinning left, going to
take that little eight-foot jump shot.
Stop, rewind. He is spinning right. The Dream Shake. He is going
to fall out of bounds as he takes that even more familiar
eight-footer that no one can handle. Stop, rewind. He has his
man up in the air, and he is driving, one step, two steps, jam.
Stop, rewind. He is being double-teamed and passes out to one of
his guards -- to Clyde Drexler or Kenny Smith or Sam Cassell --
for a carnival-easy three-point shot to win a Kewpie doll. Stop,
rewind. The pass will be to a cutter for an easy basket. Stop,
rewind.

Tomjanovich simply will stare at the lethal menu. His good fortune
will overwhelm him. ``Sometimes -- often, really -- I just look at
the tape of Hakeem and say, `God, what are the other coaches
thinking?' '' Rudy T says. ``How do you stop that? What do you do?
We're around him so much that at times we take him for granted.
But to see some of the things he's doing now. . . .''

Stop, rewind.

The time has arrived for everyone to stare in amazement at this
seven-foot gentleman from Lagos, Nigeria, to stare even harder
than last year when he was the MVP in the NBA and led the Rockets
to the NBA championship. That was the for-granted stuff. This is
the surreal. He is one step away from winning the title this time
pretty much by himself, taking an ordinary team to an
extraordinary finish. This is his moment. This is his show.

``He's had an unbelievable run,'' Rocket assistant coach Carroll
Dawson says. ``To go up against the type of competition we've had
and to do the things that he's done . . . he's never played
better. He's scoring, rebounding, blocking shots and -- this is
what he's doing better than he ever has -- making great passes. A
few years ago, he'd get the ball and you'd say, `All right, now
he'll try to score.' Now he waits that little extra bit. He sees
where everybody is.''

The Utah Jazz. The Phoenix Suns. The San Antonio Spurs. In each of
their Western Conference series against those teams, the
sixth-seeded Rockets were the underdogs. In each of the three
series, they faced desperate times. They could have been
eliminated in either of two decisive games against the Jazz, in
any of three against the Suns. They squandered a 2-0 advantage and
faced a best-of-three situation against the Spurs, with two of
those games on the road. Each time they pulled a wondrous escape.
Each time the reason for the escape essentially was their
32-year-old captain.

``To my mind, he's the best player in the league, and he's been
the best as long as I've been in it,'' says forward Mario Elie, a
five-year veteran. ``He's so good that sometimes you get caught up
in just watching him.''


The credit that Olajuwon has never received, not even with a
championship and an MVP award last year, has begun to arrive in a
hurry. He is now doing the postseason stuff of Magic Johnson and
Larry Bird and Jordan and Bill Russell. Maybe, hard though it may
be to believe, he is doing even more. Did any of them have to
perform with such a nondescript cast? Perhaps the better
comparisons for his postseason transcendence come from other
sports: Olajuwon is more like Bob Gibson hurling the St. Louis
Cardinals to World Series championships, Reggie Jackson in various
October settings, Joe Montana in those Super Bowls, Wayne Gretzky
on one of those Stanley Cup runs in Edmonton, suddenly everywhere
all at once, controlling the entire drama.

``The series he just played against San Antonio is going to be
legendary,'' Tomjanovich says. ``People will be talking about that
series and how he played for many, many years.''


https://vault.si.com/vault/1995/06/12/the-stuff-of-dreams-with-a-performance-for-the-ages-hakeem-olajuwon-lifted-his-rockets-back-into-the-finals


Hakeem was also a triple, quadruple and perhaps the closest as a quintruple double threat in the modern era.

Image


2. Shaq
3. Wilt
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Re: ReaGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #6 

Post#16 » by Dutchball97 » Sat Oct 24, 2020 7:56 pm

1.Wilt Chamberlain - The #5 spot was a toss up between Duncan and Wilt to me, so with Duncan in I'm going with Wilt here. Wilt struggled to win throughout his career due to Russell's Celtics but he still had one of the best title seasons ever in 1967 and was able to adapt to a more team oriented role on the Lakers and win another title that way. I do think his gaudy scoring numbers are a bit overrated but there is a good reason why he's always been in the GOAT conversation. If Wilt was coached by someone who understood the game of basketball better he might've just been the best player ever. The thing is that Russell managed to change the way the game was played and was able to thrive where Wilt struggled. Since we're working with what actually happened instead of what could've been, Wilt at #6 is about as high as I could put him but I have a hard time seeing him much lower either.

2. Larry Bird - Shaq, Magic and Hakeem all peaked as high as Bird and also have an edge on longevity, which is why I didn't expect going with Bird this soon. The difference between Bird and the other guys I mentioned is that I think Bird's prime as a whole was on another level. Bird needed very little time to become one of the top players in the league and he stayed on top till his body broke down from injuries. The other guys were all top guys for large parts of their career as well of course but I'm not sure they were quite as much on top as Bird. When Magic was finally becoming the clear best player on the Lakers and he could really start pushing Bird, MJ came around and took over the mantle of best player in the league. Orlando Shaq wasn't quite there yet imo and after leaving the Lakers, Shaq's performance also didn't hold up as long as you'd hope. Hakeem spending too many years of his prime not really doing much and only putting it all together later in his career hurts his case in my eyes. What it comes down to is I'd take Bird's average prime year over anyone else still available.

3. Magic Johnson - Consistency is key here. I'd probably take Shaq and Hakeem at their absolute best over Magic's best but the amount of years Magic was able to perform at or near his best is more impressive to me. In terms of sheer number of high level years he's even ahead of Bird but with Bird leading his team for pretty much his entire career and him being the clear best player in the mid 80s gives him the edge.
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Re: ReaGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #6 

Post#17 » by trex_8063 » Sat Oct 24, 2020 8:04 pm

Dr Positivity wrote:
eminence wrote:Is anyone else willing to consider Mikan here or should I leave that one off for a few rounds? He's the last guy left who truly dominated an era imo (with NBL had a run of 7 titles in 8 seasons).


For me no, even if I valued 48-51 Mikan as much as the best 4 year stretches of any of these players (weighing in era dominance vs weaker era), he still loses on longevity. I view Mikan from 52-54 as "only" being prime Duncan or Hakeem-ish level vs his era, which hurts his case compared to if he had just annihilated the league and then retired. He had already shown to be human in his last 3 prime seasons as the pre shot clock era got better.



I'm afraid it's no for me as well [I think penbeast0 is once again in for the long term of solitude putting his stake in the lonely island of Mikan]. In terms of total career value, he suffers a little by way of longevity compared to most all-time greats. And though his dominance was nearly unparalleled, one cannot [imo] totally get away from the era in which it came.

wrt the latter, people can say he can only compete against what is in front of him [and he crushed that]. But to pose the common hyperbole, what if all that was in front of him were "slow, white, midget car salesmen"?

Now most of you know me, and that I don't feel anywhere near ^^that deprecating toward that era, and I agree Mikan was a heckuva player [any era]. But that said, there nonetheless can be little question that it was less competitive than basically every era that came after; and what's more it improved rather rapidly for awhile just shortly after his retirement.
While he was pretty much the stand-alone best in the world in the late 40s/early 50s, as soon as just a decade or so later [like in the early 60s], I think he would no longer hold that distinction; in fact, once Oscar is there and West hits his prime, I think it's debatable as to whether Mikan would even be a top-5 player in that league. I lean toward no, actually---->Wilt, Russell, Oscar, Jerry, and Bob Pettit I suspect would all be better. And considering they all have longevity edges on Mikan as well.....
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Re: ReaGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #6 

Post#18 » by Joao Saraiva » Sat Oct 24, 2020 8:21 pm

eminence wrote:Is anyone else willing to consider Mikan here or should I leave that one off for a few rounds? He's the last guy left who truly dominated an era imo (with NBL had a run of 7 titles in 8 seasons).


I can't fault him for the era he played in... but man it feels like at least the 60s look like NBA material. Mikan the way I see it can be argued for the top 20 because of that alone, but I can't put him in the top 10. Also feel longevity is missing. He played 6 seasons... even if his peak is enough to consider him for a top 20... I'm even weighting his peak and prime very high.

I most likely won't vote him for the top 30 players. Don't even know if top 40. 6 years is very low longevity.

But hey, that is at least my way of thinking about it. Give some traction to it if you feel like it. Who knows if your comments will make people wonder if he should be higher than they previously thought.
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Re: ReaGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #6 

Post#19 » by eminence » Sat Oct 24, 2020 8:23 pm

trex_8063 wrote:Now most of you know me, and that I don't feel anywhere near ^^that deprecating toward that era, and I agree Mikan was a heckuva player [any era]. But that said, there nonetheless can be little question that it was less competitive than basically every era that came after; and what's more it improved rather rapidly for awhile just shortly after his retirement.
While he was pretty much the stand-alone best in the world in the late 40s/early 50s, as soon as just a decade or so later [like in the early 60s], I think he would no longer hold that distinction; in fact, once Oscar is there and West hits his prime, I think it's debatable as to whether Mikan would even be a top-5 player in that league. I lean toward no, actually---->Wilt, Russell, Oscar, Jerry, and Bob Pettit I suspect would all be better. And considering they all have longevity edges on Mikan as well.....


Kind of what I expected (and I think I agree due to the longevity), but I am a bit higher on how good Mikan would've been later, I have him quite clearly over Pettit in any era, and potentially competitive with Wilt/Russell for king of the league in the 60's, but at worst in that 5th slot behind the guards.

Sidenote - is that '56 Hawks v Lakers the weirdest series ever? Two 1 pt Hawks wins sandwiching a 58 pt shellacking.
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Re: ReaGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #6 

Post#20 » by Clyde Frazier » Sat Oct 24, 2020 8:34 pm

eminence wrote:KG will very likely be my top guy, but very open to different options for 2/3. All those TRex mentioned and Oscar too. I might even listen on Dirk (though I'm pretty low on his defense).

How do people feel about Shaq's longevity?


His longevity probably gets overlooked because usually durability coincides with it, but in his case not so much. 17 seasons as a productive player including his resurgent season in 09 is nothing to scoff at. However, Shaq failed to crack 70 games played (or equivalent) in 9 of those 17 seasons. That lack of durability is what puts him in the top 10 all time as opposed to top 5 for me, especially when it seems some of it was self-inflicted.

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