91 ECF Game 2: Jordan, Free Throws, and Garbage Time

[freethedevil]

DISCLAIMER: This is not my work. I was asked to post this by a discorder who goes by the name of "BLOCKED by BAM"

I like basketball. I like watching basketball. 2 days ago I rewatched Game 2 of the 91 ecf.

Despite a terrible game 1 from MJ, the Bulls were 1 game up on the pistons. Surely the best player on the planet would show up for game 2? Going by the statsheet jordan scoring 35 on 69% shooting sounds incredible.

If you watch the game, you might see something else:

Watch on YouTube

The bulls full court press, grant and cartwright's offensive rebounding, and pippen putting all of the pistons frontline in foul trouble effectively ended the game by the 4th quarter. Jordan....had very little to do with that.

First here's my account of jordan's contributions of the game:

During those first three quarters Jordan scored 20 points on 16 shots, had 4 turnovers for 5 assists, 2 non assist chances created, won 2 fouls, made 2 good defensive plays, and had 3 defensive breakdowns, picked up 2 uncontested defensive rebounds, barely handed the ball at all and and had zero involvement with the full court press. His team expanded the lead from 8 to 16 went jordan went off, had their lead halved when jordan came back on and then increased the lead again when jordan went off in the third quarter.

Imagine giannis's offense vs the 19 raptors, but without the dpoy calibre defense and you'd get Mj's first two games against the pistons. To his credit when driving he did draw triple teams, but jordan only drove 4 or 5 times and had a slew of turnovers in the third quarters. When he didn't have the ball he was quite effectively contained by dumars with the pistons focusing the brunt of their defensive attention on Pippen. Defensively Jordan was a non factor doing about as much bad as good. Otherwise he was either on the bench, missing jumpers, or moving around trying, and (mostly) failing, to shake dumars off.

Jordan's 'explosion' came in the 4th quarter with the bulls already up 15, the pistons were all in foul trouble(not due to jordan), and it only really took off in the last 5 or so minuites when the pistons decided to just foul MJ on every possession and try to make a miraculous comeback by spamming jumpers on the other end.

Simply put, jordan was terrible. Its just 2 games, but it seems to align with what I remember from the 90's:

A. Jordan would statpad both his overall and "clutch" stats in blowout wins

B. Jordan' wasn't anything close to inevitable, sometimes being given massive credit(and recieving no blame) for terrible-mediocre performances

C. Jordan struggled mightily against great defenses

D. Jordan's defense often shrunk in the playoffs before his first retirement. Generally, in the playoffs, both grant and pippen were significantly more valuable

E. Anyone who uses "if you watched him..." is just not in the right. Jordan's reputation is drastically better than what Jordan actually accomplished on the court. IE: He tried his best to choke a 3-0 lead in the 96 finals but resident '90's experts' keep trying to tell 'nephews' all about the 70 win team he lead.

I'll need to find time to rewatch games 3 and 4, but playing like 2019 Kyrie for two of the most pivotal playoff games of your supposed apex isn't a great start.

For your consideration realgm

[freethedevil]

Not sure when the next peaks project is, but I can't remember comparably bad games from multiple top playoff runs relative to BLOCKED's version of game 2.

Just how much will bad games in the playoffs be weighed against peaks by the pc board?

[therealbig3]

I mean, you can find plenty of cherry picked examples like this against anyone.

I mean, I'm pro-LeBron in the GOAT debate, and I definitely agree that Jordan gets a pass for his poor performances more than any superstar in history and thus the myth of Jordan is far greater than the reality of Jordan.

But the reality of Jordan is still a GOAT-level peak and an absolute monster of a player. I remember seeing some RAPM estimates a while back from the late 90s that absolutely validated the fact that Jordan was providing excellent lift even during the 2nd 3-peat.

I also think there's some bias here, as Jordan's defense shrinking overall for the playoffs doesn't make any sense, since he would clearly spend more energy on that side of the ball than during the RS. Pippen and Grant/Rodman may very well have been significantly more valuable defensively, but I really disagree with saying that Jordan wasn't good defensively in the playoffs and was actually worse than his RS self, when he definitely coasted more. I would need to see way more evidence than one person's subjective view of a single playoff game.

[70sFan]

So in short - a clear try to downgrade player someone doesn't like. This is nothing new, except that people rarely do this with Jordan.

You can point out moments like this against any season of any player. This is not an analysis, this is nothing than agenda driven post.

[70sFan]

Not sure when the next peaks project is, but I can't remember comparably bad games from multiple top playoff runs relative to BLOCKED's version of game 2.

Just how much will bad games in the playoffs be weighed against peaks by the pc board?

2013 James peak was voted as second best peak of all-time and he disappointed in half of the finals games. Everyone can have a bad game, it happens even to the greatest ones.

[mailmp]

I think dismissing this as “agenda” is a bit lazy. And granted the necessary response requires work — “here are games in that series where 1991 Jordan was awesome and hard carried”, or “yeah maybe 1990/92 deserves more credit as his peak because of he performed against ______”, or “Here are these games against the Celtics/Pacers/Spurs where Lebron supposedly at his peak was just as disappointing.” But assuming it applies to every player in their peak seasons is not a real counter.

Also 2013 Lebron as a peak is a divisive debate for those reasons. Some have 2012 and some have 2009. But we never see that debate with Jordan, and maybe we should. Especially with how willing people are willing to comb through Lebron’s numbers in the 2014 Finals for “garbage time” criticisms, it certainly is odd how the same drive to nitpick is never applied to Jordan.

[freethedevil]

I mean, you can find plenty of cherry picked examples like this against anyone.

For a career, sure. Any playoff run? probably not. Lebron has at least two which were closer to "flawless" in 2012 and 2009. Like Lebron in 2009 had one arguably 'bad' game and at least going by the post it was way better. When the biggest knock on a season is losing in the ecf, being bad for half the ecf should matter. And 2012 i can only remember his finals game 1 as "meh" but it doesn't seem to be nearly as bad as mj's game 2 and I do remember jordan being bad in game 1. And "competition" isn't a viable explanation for 2012 given the defensive gauntlet lebron ran through.

I mean, I'm pro-LeBron in the GOAT debate, and I definitely agree that Jordan gets a pass for his poor performances more than any superstar in history and thus the myth of Jordan is far greater than the reality of Jordan.

But the reality of Jordan is still a GOAT-level peak and an absolute monster of a player. I remember seeing some RAPM estimates a while back from the late 90s that absolutely validated the fact that Jordan was providing excellent lift even during the 2nd 3-peat.

I mean, jordan's second three peat rapm sees him well off from goat level, as does his aupm playoff stuff. Jordan's case for a sustained 3-5 year #1 is pretty strong, assuming "pad stats with free throws in garbage time after his team won despite a bad performance" wasn't a semi-frequent occurence. I can't reallly remember just how much that kind of thing happened, but it is concerning that u can have such a nice bball reference game log after a seemingly awful performance. For what its worth, I recall Jordan being better in game 3 and 4, but I'd need a rewatch. Blocked by Bam did say that Jordan did more in the firsdt 5 minuites of game 3 than game 1 or two but he hasn't finished the game.

I also think there's some bias here, as Jordan's defense shrinking overall for the playoffs doesn't make any sense, since he would clearly spend more energy on that side of the ball than during the RS. Pippen and Grant/Rodman may very well have been significantly more valuable defensively, but I really disagree with saying that Jordan wasn't good defensively in the playoffs and was actually worse than his RS self, when he definitely coasted more. I would need to see way more evidence than one person's subjective view of a single playoff game.

Think that can reasonably be explained by man/perimter defense getting less valuable in the playoffs
See: 2020 Kawhi, 2020 Paul George, 2015 hawks, 2018 raptors, ect.

[freethedevil]

Not sure when the next peaks project is, but I can't remember comparably bad games from multiple top playoff runs relative to BLOCKED's version of game 2.

Just how much will bad games in the playoffs be weighed against peaks by the pc board?

2013 James peak was voted as second best peak of all-time and he disappointed in half of the finals games. Everyone can have a bad game, it happens even to the greatest ones.

how does it matter what it was voted as?

Lebron's 2013 playoff runs had way worse games than naything from 2009 or 2012. Needing to use 2013 here serves as an implicit concession, that 2012 and 2009 dont have the warts jordan's 91 does.

[70sFan]

Man defense is absolutely more important in playoffs than in RS. Having no real weakness on defense is huge for a team. Just because Kawhi struggled against Nuggets offense doesn't make man defense overrated. You can counter than with an example from the same season - Davis proved many times how valuable man defense was.

[70sFan]

Not sure when the next peaks project is, but I can't remember comparably bad games from multiple top playoff runs relative to BLOCKED's version of game 2.

Just how much will bad games in the playoffs be weighed against peaks by the pc board?

2013 James peak was voted as second best peak of all-time and he disappointed in half of the finals games. Everyone can have a bad game, it happens even to the greatest ones.

how does it matter what it was voted as?

Lebron's 2013 playoff runs had way worse games than naything from 2009 or 2012. Needing to use 2013 here serves as an implicit concession, that 2012 and 2009 dont have the warts jordan's 91 does.

Are you so sure about it? If anyone was willing enough to try to bash James, I'm sure he would find a moment in 2009 or 2012 run when he played underwhelming despite stats. I won't do that because it's silly, but some people would.

No player is perfect. 1991 Jordan wasn't perfect and neither was 2009, 2012 or 2013 James.

[freethedevil]

Man defense is absolutely more important in playoffs than in RS. Having no real weakness on defense is huge for a team. Just because Kawhi struggled against Nuggets offense doesn't make man defense overrated. You can counter than with an example from the same season - Davis proved many times how valuable man defense was.

Davis's is a much better im protector than man defender and his ability to play man defense during those two series was strongly contingent on lebron becoming the primary rim prtwoctor for 2 series. The lakers were a far paint orientated team than a perimiter orientated team, so no, unless you cherrypick one apsec tof the lakers defneisve success, it is nonsensical to use a team that was disporitantely big to argue that perimiter defense gets more valuable in the playoffs.

[70sFan]

Man defense is absolutely more important in playoffs than in RS. Having no real weakness on defense is huge for a team. Just because Kawhi struggled against Nuggets offense doesn't make man defense overrated. You can counter than with an example from the same season - Davis proved many times how valuable man defense was.

Davis's is a much better im protector than man defender and his ability to play man defense during those two series was strongly contingent on lebron becoming the primary rim prtwoctor for 2 series. The lakers were a far paint orientated team than a perimiter orientated team, so no, unless you cherrypick one apsec tof the lakers defneisve success, it is nonsensical to use a team that was disporitantely big to argue that perimiter defense gets more valuable in the playoffs.

I can use different examples - Iguodala defense was often priceless for Warriors, especially before KD. Ron Artest shut down young KD in 2010 was very important aspect of Lakers win. Hell, Houston defense in 2018 was so good in playoffs largely because most of his high minute players were effective man defenders.

Your idea that man defense isn't valuable in playoffs is not backed up with anything. Just from theoretical perspective, having good man defenders is always valuable and in playoffs any advantage could be essential. Kawhi struggled against Nuggets because of combination of wear and tear, relative weakness in defending off-ball players and him not being at his best defensively anymore but it had nothing to do with his man defense.

[freethedevil]

2013 James peak was voted as second best peak of all-time and he disappointed in half of the finals games. Everyone can have a bad game, it happens even to the greatest ones.

how does it matter what it was voted as?

Lebron's 2013 playoff runs had way worse games than naything from 2009 or 2012. Needing to use 2013 here serves as an implicit concession, that 2012 and 2009 dont have the warts jordan's 91 does.

[qute]
Are you so sure about it? If anyone was willing enough to try to bash James, I'm sure he would find a moment in 2009 or 2012 run when he played underwhelming despite stats. I won't do that because it's silly, but some people would.
[/quote]
Well, no, because the context where you could have such nice stats and such an underwhemlming game didn't exist. Lebron's supporting casts in 09 and 2012 were not capable of effectievly ending a playoff game against quality competition without lebron by the third quarter. And all of Lebron's games in 2009 against the magic were single digit EXCEPT for the game he played bad in. And Lebron specifcally did better in the first three quarters that game so there certainly wasn't any free throw stat padding.



Also, that is not the question, the question is did lebron have games comparably or near comparably as bad as jordan's first two games against the pistons, and I thin the answer is almost certainly no unless the op is lying about the game.

No player is perfect. 1991 Jordan wasn't perfect and neither was 2009, 2012 or 2013 James.

And? Perfection is not neccesary to be "less imperfect". Jordan and pippen both being imperfect does not suddenly make their playoff runs comparable.

[therealbig3]

Disclaimer: I don't have the time now to go through play by play, game by game right now but as an in general response to LeBron 2009 or 2012 not having the same warts -

2012 LeBron did have issues against the Celtics and Pacers before games 4-6 against the Pacers and games 6-7 against the Celtics.

2009 LeBron put up video game numbers overall and yeah, it's hard to criticize, but even in game 4 against Orlando despite a 44/12/7 game on efficient shooting, he also had 8 TOs in a 2 point loss. And then obviously the game 6 elimination game when he was pretty underwhelming.

Other years considered LeBron's peak: 2013 (well-documented that he had struggles in the Finals), 2014 (stat padded a lot in blowout losses), 2016 (offensive struggles in the first half of the Finals, never got his jumper going until game 5), 2017 (similar to 2014), 2018 (similar to 2014 and 2017). His defense was also getting criticism in the 2014, 2017, and 2018 Finals, as well as the 2009 ECF.

Not that I totally agree with those characterizations, but he definitely stat padded in blowout wins/losses or had legit offensive/defensive struggles at various points throughout those playoff runs.

[Lost92Bricks]

Jordan's defense in game 3 of this series is some of the best you will ever see.

[freethedevil]

Man defense is absolutely more important in playoffs than in RS. Having no real weakness on defense is huge for a team. Just because Kawhi struggled against Nuggets offense doesn't make man defense overrated. You can counter than with an example from the same season - Davis proved many times how valuable man defense was.

Davis's is a much better im protector than man defender and his ability to play man defense during those two series was strongly contingent on lebron becoming the primary rim prtwoctor for 2 series. The lakers were a far paint orientated team than a perimiter orientated team, so no, unless you cherrypick one apsec tof the lakers defneisve success, it is nonsensical to use a team that was disporitantely big to argue that perimiter defense gets more valuable in the playoffs.

I can use different examples - Iguodala defense was often priceless for Warriors, especially before KD. Ron Artest shut down young KD in 2010 was very important aspect of Lakers win. Hell, Houston defense in 2018 was so good in playoffs largely because most of his high minute players were effective man defenders.

Iggy was the warriors secondary rim protector and the warriors are a team which, when they were actually good at defense in the playoffs, had the unqiue quality of having 4 players who could help at the rim. The rocket's defense was exceptional due to being highly switchable. They were not lock down experts. And even then, the rockets are a wierd example since the rockets got worse in the playoffs relative to the regular season. Artest was a decent complimetary rim protector on a team better at protecting the rim than man defense, again wierd example.

Your idea that man defense isn't valuable in playoffs is not backed up with anything. Just from theoretical perspective, having good man defenders is always valuable and in playoffs any advantage could be essential. Kawhi struggled against Nuggets because of combination of wear and tear, relative weakness in defending off-ball players and him not being at his best defensively anymore but it had nothing to do with his man defense.

The idea that man defense is less valuable in the playoffs is backed up by loads of perimiter orientated elite defenses regressing to average in the playoffs, while your counter evidence is a bunch of very specific matchups involving players who were secondary rim protectors.

Kawhi's man defense was as good in the playoffs as the regular season, and vastly better than it was in 2019. But in 2019, kawhi had marc gasol to funnell people into, in 2020 he had zubac and harrell. Lakers's collection of **** man defenders suddenly became good when lebron and ad, both of whom provided far more value at the rim than on the perimiter defensively.

Man defense becomes less valuable as teams adjust and scheme for matchups, but its much harder to scheme down a team's paint protection.

[freethedevil]

Disclaimer: I don't have the time now to go through play by play, game by game right now but as an in general response to LeBron 2009 or 2012 not having the same warts -

2012 LeBron did have issues against the Celtics and Pacers before games 4-6 against the Pacers and games 6-7 against the Celtics.

2009 LeBron put up video game numbers overall and yeah, it's hard to criticize, but even in game 4 against Orlando despite a 44/12/7 game on efficient shooting, he also had 8 TOs in a 2 point loss. And then obviously the game 6 elimination game when he was pretty underwhelming.

Other years considered LeBron's peak: 2013 (well-documented that he had struggles in the Finals), 2014 (stat padded a lot in blowout losses), 2016 (offensive struggles in the first half of the Finals, never got his jumper going until game 5), 2017 (similar to 2014), 2018 (similar to 2014 and 2017). His defense was also getting criticism in the 2014, 2017, and 2018 Finals, as well as the 2009 ECF.

Not that I totally agree with those characterizations, but he definitely stat padded in blowout wins/losses or had legit offensive/defensive struggles at various points throughout those playoff runs.

2013 was interesting in that on the team result level pacers vs heat and spurs vs heat were similar, but lebron was much better against the pacers than the spurs.

I remember heat vs celtics being a much better version of the pacers series for lebron, but iI dont remember the game to game munitae.

Getting 8 turnovers is bad but more than defensible when you consider just how much he was creating, his defensive load, and his efffeicny in terms of scoring. And, more importantly, lebron's errors are directly translatable onto the scoresheet.

His 2009 defense got criticism but i dont see that as something that is really backed up. Iirc he prevented dwight from doing stuff at the rim multiple times a game and he held his defensive matchups multiple points below their rs effiencies despite themm going re dhot vs everyone else. From what i remember, lebron's defense in 09 was better than just about any other playoffs run, and I'm alot more impressed by his defense in that ecf than I was say, the more often cited 2016 finals vs the warriors where it felt alot of his success was matchup dependent

I dont see any other season aside from mayyybe 2013 as having a well supported argument for being his peak, so that's not really a concern to me. But I will say that "statpadding' when your team abasolutely needs you as you're losing is a bit different than doing it after your team's already won. The 2020 lakers or the cavs vs the eastern conference are the only times where Lebron's teams were better enough relative to the opposiiton where I could see something like that unfolding.

[70sFan]

Well, no, because the context where you could have such nice stats and such an underwhemlming game didn't exist. Lebron's supporting casts in 09 and 2012 were not capable of effectievly ending a playoff game against quality competition without lebron by the third quarter.

This is not true, there were games in both playoff runs when his team did better without him than with him. Not many, but they existed. Besides, 2012 Heat team wasn't bad supporting cast at all and Wade was still superstar in that season.

Besides, you basically want to criticize Jordan for having good team. It's nonsense, you don't get credit for a loss when you play badly. You don't get credit for a win when you play badly either.

And all of Lebron's games in 2009 against the magic were single digit EXCEPT for the game he played bad in. And Lebron specifcally did better in the first three quarters that game so there certainly wasn't any free throw stat padding.

Again, having better or worse team doesn't make you better. Besides, in game 2 he had 2nd worst +/- on his team in 1 point win.

Also, that is not the question, the question is did lebron have games comparably or near comparably as bad as jordan's first two games against the pistons, and I thin the answer is almost certainly no unless the op is lying about the game.

Well, assuming that this biased man really shows objective analysis here...

LeBron had his share of struggling against Celtics and Pacers in 2012. He also had some weak games against Orlando despite huge stats. I don't know who had lower lows, but I wouldn't expect to see significant difference.

And? Perfection is not neccesary to be "less imperfect". Jordan and pippen both being imperfect does not suddenly make their playoff runs comparable.

I know about this, but you're trying to push strange agenda that James doesn't have bad games at his peak and then you try to find season when he didn't have them. Why don't we look at their overall primes? Bigger samples show more consistent picture. Anyone had some imperfections - if you think that 2009 or 2012 are James peak, then why can't we look at 2010 or 2011? It's not like James magically forgot how to play basketball for these two in-between years.

Everyone had weaker moments. Maybe it's true that Jordan had some weaker games in 1991 playoffs. So what? In the end, one or two weaker games in full playoff run doesn't mean much, at least not for people who look at things objectively.

[70sFan]

Jordan's defense in game 3 of this series is some of the best you will ever see.

Will have to rewatch it then!

[70sFan]

Davis's is a much better im protector than man defender and his ability to play man defense during those two series was strongly contingent on lebron becoming the primary rim prtwoctor for 2 series. The lakers were a far paint orientated team than a perimiter orientated team, so no, unless you cherrypick one apsec tof the lakers defneisve success, it is nonsensical to use a team that was disporitantely big to argue that perimiter defense gets more valuable in the playoffs.

I can use different examples - Iguodala defense was often priceless for Warriors, especially before KD. Ron Artest shut down young KD in 2010 was very important aspect of Lakers win. Hell, Houston defense in 2018 was so good in playoffs largely because most of his high minute players were effective man defenders.

Iggy was the warriors secondary rim protector and the warriors are a team which, when they were actually good at defense in the playoffs, had the unqiue quality of having 4 players who could help at the rim. The rocket's defense was exceptional due to being highly switchable. They were not lock down experts. And even then, the rockets are a wierd example since the rockets got worse in the playoffs relative to the regular season. Artest was a decent complimetary rim protector on a team better at protecting the rim than man defense, again wierd example.

Your idea that man defense isn't valuable in playoffs is not backed up with anything. Just from theoretical perspective, having good man defenders is always valuable and in playoffs any advantage could be essential. Kawhi struggled against Nuggets because of combination of wear and tear, relative weakness in defending off-ball players and him not being at his best defensively anymore but it had nothing to do with his man defense.

The idea that man defense is less valuable in the playoffs is backed up by loads of perimiter orientated elite defenses regressing to average in the playoffs, while your counter evidence is a bunch of very specific matchups involving players who were secondary rim protectors.

Kawhi's man defense was as good in the playoffs as the regular season, and vastly better than it was in 2019. But in 2019, kawhi had marc gasol to funnell people into, in 2020 he had zubac and harrell. Lakers's collection of **** man defenders suddenly became good when lebron and ad, both of whom provided far more value at the rim than on the perimiter defensively.

Man defense becomes less valuable as teams adjust and scheme for matchups, but its much harder to scheme down a team's paint protection.

No, what you're proving is that rim protection is more valuable than perimeter defense and it's true - both in RS and in playoffs. It's true that without good paint protector it's incredibly hard to have elite defense.

All of these doesn't prove that man defense is less valuable in playoffs. As you said - teams adjust and scheme for matchups, so when you have good man defenders it's harder to scheme against your team.