RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #7 (Magic Johnson)

[trex_8063]

2020 List
1. LeBron James
2. Michael Jordan
3. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
4. Bill Russell
5. Tim Duncan
6. Wilt Chamberlain
7. ???

Target stop time will be ~2-3pm EST on Wednesday.

Spoiler:

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

[Joao Saraiva]

Feel like it's gonna be Hakeem vs Shaq for me here. But maybe Magic will get elected.

[Dutchball97]

With the attention Shaq, Hakeem, KG, Bird and Magic have gotten so far I'd be really surprised if we see a winner with an outright majority this time.

[penbeast0]

No one chased me off the big dominant guys so they are now my 1 and 2. Behind them I have a few more that are very close. Curry, Bird, Magic, Hakeem, Garnett with Oscar, West, Erving, Moses, DRob, Karl Malone, and Kevin Durant on the outside looking in:

1. Shaq -- most physically dominant player ever outside of Wilt
2. Mikan -- most skilled and most physically dominant big of his era, but that era was very weak
3. Curry -- changed the game and shockingly dominant for such a little guy

Certainly open to changing my mind on any or all of the three.

[Dr Positivity]

Copying my post on Olajuwon from #6

My argument against Hakeem is I think his offensive game is slightly overrated because people focus on how many moves he has when the most important part is the ball going in. For example not to compare Hakeem to them, but Kyrie and Melo have a lot of moves but we know being a great scorer means more than that. Who's a better post scorer, Jokic or Embiid - I'm taking Jokic. Jokic is amazing post scoring talent not because of moves but because of his feel putting the ball in.

From 85-92 he is a solid 21-24ppg scorer, but on average about .54-.55 TS, and is turnover prone. As a result he doesn't finish top 20 in OWS any of these seasons. He has 2 top 20 finishes in OWS in his career overall (93 and 94) whereas Duncan has 6 and KG has 8 for example.

I would argue up until 92, Hakeem was on track to have more like an Ewing level career than Duncan. Elite level defensive player (better than Ewing to that point), however flawed on offense. Ewing had the best scoring seasons between the two up through the 92 season with his 90 and 91 years. Yes Hakeem had more moves than Ewing, but I believe sometimes was known for trying to do too much with them. I value 00-03 KG more than 80s and early 90s Hakeem offensively pretty easily personally. He is not even worse as a scorer but is more of a playmaker and spacer.

He changes his career in 93 and at this point he becomes a legit top 10 caliber peak player. I won't deny he improved or how well he did in the playoffs, but he did benefit from the Rockets having a revolutionary jump in 3pt shooting for a champion at that time. The previous champions 3PA were 6.6 for Pistons in 90, 5.2 for Bulls in 91, 5.5 for Bulls in 92, 8.2 for Bulls in 93, and then 15.7 for the Rockets in 94, 1.8 more than 2nd place. They averaged just under 18 in the playoffs. To put in perspective you could be a successful team as late as the Grindhouse Grizzlies in early 2010s shooting less 3s than the Rockets did in 94. That's not to say what he did wasn't amazing, I just don't think Hakeem figured out how to be the perfect post player in his 30s or anything. He was very good offensively in those years but once again wasn't a top 5 offensive player in the league, he wasn't as good as Shaq or Barkley on offense in my opinion.

In 95 he goes from winning DPOY the previous year to not finishing on an All D team, and after the Rockets have been a lock for top 5 defense virtually every year, they fall to 12th and are never great again on defense in the Hakeem era. They win the title but he both has a 2nd star in Drexler and his role players come up big in several series that they could have lost easily. No title is luck but if I had to pick one it would be the 95 Rockets. They win game 5 by 4 at Utah when trailing late, and win Game 7 at Phoenix by 1 point, if one Jazz/Suns player had gotten hot there wouldn't have been anything they could do.

Hakeem finishes 21st all time in WS despite having 2nd and 3rd finishes at his peak in 93 and 94, and 20th in MVP shares despite winning one. I'm not going to take either of these stats at face value but what they tell you is that he performed much better in his peak seasons in both categories than he did the rest of his career. Yet despite that he is frequently ranked about the same place on all time peak lists (9th on 2019 list, 6th on 2015) as on this list. If Olajuwon only had the 9th best peak or so I think he should be out of the top 10 overall. However I understand if people have his peak as top 5-6 or even fringing on GOAT level how they might still have him in the conversation at this point. I personally think as great as his peak was, it benefitted from spacing on offense making it still only a fringe top 10 peak, and considering the rest of his career therefore I don't have him in my overall top 10 and I would even consider players like Dirk or Erving against him, it's not like 1976 Erving or 2011 Dirk is less impressive to me than 94 Hakeem for a peak.

[Ambrose]

Magic, Shaq and Hakeem are my guys at the moment (this is not my vote). Looking forward to the discussion to see if anything sways me in a certain direction.

[90sAllDecade]

1.Hakeem Olajuwon

- Has an argument for GOAT peak and individual season all time as no one has done all of these things in one year below during the modern era, as well as was third in the league in scoring.


Hakeem was a post game and defensive genius on par with anyone in history.

Here is a repost from another thread.

When a player and regular people for that matter have English as a second language, often people aren't able to see that person's full personality and create stereotypes about thier intelligence, especially if that person is a great athlete.

For example, Hakeem had post moves and counters three or more layers deep. This is a skillset that can be developed without being that gifted an athlete and is pure basketball intelligence from reading the defense and attacking what it gives you. McHale was a lesser athlete and developed an advanced postgame as an example, but Olajuwon could do everything he could and more before even adding his greater athletic abilty. He also mentored and coached many all time greats and HOFers including LeBron, Kobe and Shaq.

Defensively he was a genius, he could pick up perimeter players, blow up plays with his impeccable block timing and positioning, as well as anticipate offenses for steals at an all time rate, GOAT level for a center or big.

One thing that needs to be mentioned is that Duncan is outstanding as a big not taking away how great he was, but he also greatly benefited from a Mount Rushmore coach in Popovich and a much stronger supporting cast in thier primes. Hakeem had to be both the defensive and offensive anchor on his teams by himself with much worse coaching and supporting cast for many years.

Here is a video breakdown of some of his great reads and sky high basketball IQ:

Watch Video Breakdown:

Watch on YouTube

2. Shaq
3. Magic

[Dr Positivity]

A case for Jerry West deserving consideration this high:

- Amazing offensive production for his era considering the 60s were less efficient. For his era he was as impressive as a mid 60s TS player would be now. For example in 68 he leads the league in TS with .590 TS% when the league average was .496. In 2020 the league average was .567 meaning West's season would be like putting up .66 TS% in 2020. His 66 efficiency (+8.3) would be like .65 in 2020. West is slightly below peak Curry in TS% but he is up there with Lebron and Durant most efficient seasons. He also did this in a harder era to average assists due to less shooting and stricter ballhandling rules, in that era all you had to do to be top 5 in assists was be around 7 assists per game and he frequently was in the top 5.

- One of the best playoff resumes of all time in terms of raising his game, nicknamed Mr Clutch for a reason. He averaged 30/6/5 in the finals on solid efficiency for his time for his career despite all his finals being against either Russell or the Holzman Knicks.

- Elite level leader and elite level defender for his position - this is main reason I rate him over Oscar. He has stronger defensive reputation than players like Magic and Bird.

- It was nearly impossible to win in the 60s without a center to match up against Russell and Wilt and he almost did it. Several heartbreaking losses - 3 pt in G7 in 62, 2 pt in G7 in 66, 2 pt in G7 in 1969. Both West and Russell were clutch but he Celtics had the horseshoe when it comes to clutch role players otherwise 1 title could have easily been 3 or 4 for West in which case I think people would more regularly rank him top 10.

- Solid longevity of 12 great years in between his first and last, however I understand someone like KG may have edge on him here.

[Hal14]

7. Larry Bird
8. Magic Johnson
9. Hakeem Olajuwon

My case for Bird:
1) Bird is probably the best all-around player of all time. In terms of all-around game - outside shooting, mid range shooting, shooting off the catch, shooting off the dribble, hitting clutch shots, scoring inside off drives, scoring inside off post moves, scoring on the break, FT shooting. One of the best shooters ever...then you have rebounding - one of the best rebounding forwards ever.

Then you have passing - one of the best passers ever. Outside of Stockton and Magic, I'd say Bird is the best passer ever. -and that. is by no means going out on a limb. The dude saw the game 2 steps ahead of everyone else, so he could make reads / see passes virtually no one else could, his instincts were off the charts. Jordan and Kobe were both amazing scorers and good passers. Magic was an amazing passer and a good scorer. Bird meanwhile was an all-time great at scoring and passing. Only guy who can maybe say that is LeBron and he's already on the list. Bird would literally make perfect passes to teammates setting them up for dunks...while sitting on his butt. He'd set up teammates for baskets with perfect passes...while throwing the pass through the legs of his opponent. He'd throw passes the entire length of the court, and it would still be an absolute laser of a pass, right on the money - passes that most other players could only dream of making.

Then you have defense, the most underrated part of Bird's game. Bird made 2 all-NBA defensive teams but you have to consider the era that he played in. Overall as a league, there was a TON of competition to make all-defensive teams back in Bird's era. There was more defense being played back then - dudes were really getting up in each other's jock, dudes were really going at it and givin' em hell when they played D back then. If Bird played today, he would make at least 5 or 6 all defensive teams. On the flip side, Chris Paul has made 9 all defensive teams and LeBron has made 6...because not as many elite defensive players anymore. You put those 2 dudes in the 80s and you can cut their all defensive selections in half. Not to mention, Bird made one of the greatest defensive plays in NBA history, coming out of nowhere, showing tremendous anticipation by stealing the inbounds pass from Isiah Thomas in game 5 of the 1987 eastern conference finals. That was one of the greatest games of all time and one of the best, most hard fought playoff series' of all time and Bird made the play that won the game and decided the series.

Larry Bird on defense:

Watch on YouTube

2) The Celtics improved by 32 wins after they drafted Bird. They went 29-53 the year before they got Bird in 78-79. That was the 2nd worst record in the entire league and it was the worst season in Celtics franchise history. Then in 79-80, Bird was only a rookie but he made that much of a difference - they went 61-21, sweeping the Rockets in the 1st round of the playoffs before falling to the Sixers in the 2nd round - a Sixers team that gave the Lakers a really tough series in the NBA finals. 

So a 32 win improvement after drafting Bird. The Warriors improved by 17 wins after drafting Wilt and the Lakers improved by 13 wins after drafting Magic. Both of those are impressive, but pale in comparison to the impact Bird had after arriving in Boston. 

3) Keeping it on the impact Bird had on the Celtics. Bird's last season before the back surgery, Celtics win 57 games in 87-88. Then 88-89, when he missed basically the whole year? They went down to just 42 wins, despite the fact that they still had DJ, Ainge, Parish and McHale - plus Reggie Lewis. Then in 89-90, they get Bird back after the surgery and even though he wasn't close to 100% he still helped them increase their win total from 42 to 52.

4) Let's look at where Bird finished in MVP voting from 1980 to 1988, the first 9 years of his career:

79-80, 4th place

80-81, 2nd place

81-82, 2nd place

82-83, 2nd place

83-84, 1st place

84-85, 1st place

85-86, 1st place

86-87, 3rd place

87-88, 2nd place

Bird won 3 consecutive MVPs. The only other players to win 3 MVPs in a row? Russell and Chamberlain. Bird's career is even more impressive when you consider not only did he win 3 MVPs in a row, but he was 2nd place in MVP voting FOUR times. He finished top 4 in MVP voting every year for each of the first 9 years of his career. That is simply insane and is one of the reasons why guys like Duncan and Garnett don't belong in the same conversation as Bird...especially considering Bird did all of this in a much tougher, more competitive era. 

Nobody else has come close to being that good every year for a 9 year stretch, except for maybe Jordan, LeBron, Kareem and Russell. The 4 guys already off the board, so seems logical that Bird is the next guy on this list. 

5) Bird was the best player on what many consider to be the best team of all-time, the 86' Celtics. The Celtics went 67-15, and it was very rare for a team to win that many games back then with it being such a competitive league. That season Bird won his third MVP in a row (only other guys to do that are Russell and Wilt), Bird also won his first of 3 straight 3-point shooting contests, he was first team all-NBA, he got 73 out of a possible 78 first place votes for MVP. Bird recorded a triple double in the title clinging game win win over the Rockets. He even had a pretty good argument for being MVP of the all-star game that year, with arguably a better all around stat line than Isiah Thomas who won it. In 85-86 Bird had arguably the best single season in NBA history. And it's not like that was a fluke because he won MVP 2 other times, he was top 2 in MVP voting 7 times and he was top 4 in MVP voting each of his first 9 years in the league.

6) Loyalty is important. It was important to Bird. If we''re talking about. guy who is top 5 of all time, this needs to be a guy who a) never demanded to be traded (that eliminates Magic) b) won a title with the team that drafted him (that eliminates Shaq, Wilt and Garnett) c) never had a feud with a star teammate which resulted in one of the greatest players ever getting traded (that eliminates Shaq) and c) stayed with one team for his whole career 

Bird was a quiet kid from a small town and a tiny college. Boston was not the ideal team for him to get drafted by because a) a coach that the players didn't really like..they even got swept by the Bucks in 83 on purpose so he (Fitch) would get fired b) Boston is a big city, a big market, TONS of media pressure/scrutiny which Bird hated..especially since Magic joined the Lakers at the same time and this was right after the 2 of them went head to head in the most watched college basketball game of all time (still to this day) and Magic goes to LA, another big market. So the media for their entire career, especially from their rookie year is hyping up Bird vs Magic, black guy vs white guy. Magic and his personality, he loved it, it didn't bother him. Bird, he was not that type of guy, he hated the spotlight, so having that spotlight/pressure on him made it 10x more difficult for him to perform. Yet, still he did. Still, he won Rookie of the year and not Magic, still Bird won three MVP awards before Magic ever won 1. And while both Bird and Magic stayed with their team for their whole career, only one of them (Magic) demanded to be trded off their team despite the fact that Magic got drafted into a far better situation for her personality - and Magic got drafted to a team that had was already a 50 win team and already had Kareem (who's arguably the GOAT and was in his prime) whereas Bird joined a team that just ahd its worst record in franchise history.

7) You'd be hard pressed to find a player who was more clutch than Bird. He even hit four game tying/winning shots in the same game!

Watch on YouTube

8) Arguably the greatest playoff series of all time is the 81' ECF, sixers vs Celtics. The Sixers made the NBA finals in 80, 82 and 83. So yeah, in 81 they were really good. And the Sixers were up 3 games to 1. Then what?

In game 5, his team had their back against the wall. They had to either win or go home. What did Bird do? He only put up 32 points, 11 rebounds, 5 assists, 3 steals and 2 blocks, leading the Celtics to a 2 point win. Game 6? Again, the Celtics facing elimination. Bird puts up 25 points, 16 rebonds, 4 assists and 2 blocks. Celtics win by 2. Game 7, this one is it, for all the marbles. Bird, only in his second season out of college and facing a Sixers team that was smack dab in the middle of making 3 trips to the NBA finals in 4 years. He puts up 25 points, 11 rebounds, 5 assists, 5 steals, 2 blocks and only 1 turnover. Basically a perfect game and the Celtics needed him to be, because they won by 1 point! Celtics win the series, go to the finals and beat the Rockets. Oh and that wasn't even his best season!

9) Sure, he may have had better teammates, but the fact is Bird was the best player on the Celtics when his Celtics team swept Jordan's Bulls not once but twice in the playoffs. Here's some highlights of what Bird did against Jordan:

Watch on YouTube

10) What other player could showcase so much skill and talent in a single game that they not only lead their team to a win, but they do it against a good team, they score 60 points in that game and they make so many incredible shots that literally players on the opposing team's bench are falling over each other in awe of how good the player is they are going against? Seriously, who else could so something like this?

Watch on YouTube

Even more impressive is that Bird was literally calling some of his shots. He would tell the defender where he was gonna shoot the ball from and still make the shot. He called his shot, saying he was going to fall into the Hawks trainer's lap as he shot the ball - he did it - and he made the shot! Not to mention this game was just a few days after teammate Kevin McHale set the Celtics franchise record for points in a game - so Bird went and broke it in this game. 

11) Oh yeah, and the left handed game. Bird said "I'm saving my right hand for the Lakers" then goes out, scores 47 points to go with 14 rebounds and 11 assists, leading the Celtics to an overtime win over the Blazers - he played the game mostly with his left hand, including making 10 shots with his left hand. What other player who's ever played has had the skill (and the balls) to do that? None - just Bird.

Watch on YouTube

12) Bird says his best game ever was game 6 of the 86 finals, when he led the Celtics to the win, closing out the Rockets ( a really good, underrated team) and clinching the title. Bird posted 29 points, 11 rebounds, 12 assists, 3 steals and only 2 turnovers. Celtics win by 17. 

13) If that game vs the Rockets was his best game, the regular season game vs the Jazz might be his 2nd best game ever. You know, the one where he had a triple double...after 3 quarters of play! He refused to go back in the game for the 4th quarter, even though he was 1 steal shy of a quadruple double. He played just 3 quarters and 33 minutes but had 30 points, 12 rebounds, 10 assists and 9 steals. 

https://www.basketballnetwork.net/larry-bird-near-quadruple-double-game-vs-utah-jazz-in-1985-that-was-what-id-call-a-great-game/

14) Still not impressed? How about a play that pretty much no other player ever (except MAYBE Jordan or Dr. J) could have made, but even more impressive because it turned out to be the game winning shot in an NBA finals game!

Watch on YouTube

15) Kareem played against Wilt and he played against Jordan. But Kareem says Bird was the best player he ever played against. 

16) Magic could have said Russell, he could have said Kareem, he could have said Jordan, Wilt or Oscar. But he said that Bird was the GOAT. 

17) In closing, I'd just like to say that the one thing most of you will point to as being Bird's flaw is lack of longevity. Let me address that here. First off, keep in mind that you should either a) only take longevity into account when comparing players from the same era or b) if taking longevity into account with players from different eras you must consider that because of many factors, it's easier for a 70s player to have a longer career than a 60s player, it's easier for an 80s player to have a longer career than a 70s player, etc. 

This is because over time, the conditions have improved which allow players to play longer (less physical play, better travel conditions with 1st class hotels, private jets for modern players, improved sports medicine, nutrition, weight training, strength and conditioning, players in modern era less likely to play hurt, less likely to play through pain, star players in modern era play less minutes per game, players in modern era have more days off between games to recover, facilities have improved over time, so has equipment, etc. 

That's why Bird's longevity might look bad by today's standards. But in his era, playing for 13 seasons - 1 where he was injured most of the season so 12 full seasons. In his era, that was actually good longevity. McHale played 13 seasons, Isiah played 13 seasons, Magic played 12 seasons. Alex English played 14 full seasons but his rookie year he only averaged 5 points a game so pretty much he only played 13 seasons too. Sikma played 14 seasons. Bobby Jones played 11 seasons. 

Owly tried to prove my longevity argument wrong in the last thread by rattling off a list of guys from Bird's era who played longer but a) most of those guys were role players like Tree Rollins and Derek Harper - yeah it's easier to play more seasons when you play way less minutes. He listed guys like Terry Cummings, who played 18 seasons but for 8 of them he was a bench warmer whose minutes and production took a huge nose dive. We're only talking 10 quality seasons with him - meanwhile Bird was a 12 time all-star. He also mentioned Barkley, Hakeem and Stockton but those guys all got drafted 5 years after Bird so they were able to have longer careers because more of their careers took place after there was improvements in facilities, equipment, better strength and conditioning, better weight training, nutrition, more days off between games to recover, less hard fouls, etc. That 5 years makes a difference.

Sure, Bird wasn't as good during the 3 seasons he played after the back surgery, but he was still an all-star all 3 of those seasons and he made 2nd team all-NBA in one of those seasons. So a) he was still very good during his last 3 seasons after the surgery and b) he was just so damn good during those first 9 years, literally had arguably the best 9 year stretch of any player ever - that IMO you put those 12 years together and you have a top 3 or 4 player of all time, definitely top 5. Maybe no one else on this board agrees with me, but that's ok. I know there's many others out there who know how good Bird was, who know the impact he had on the league, on the game of basketball and how much his teammates and opponents respected him. 

[Hal14]

No one chased me off the big dominant guys so they are now my 1 and 2. Behind them I have a few more that are very close. Curry, Bird, Magic, Hakeem, Garnett with Oscar, West, Erving, Moses, DRob, Karl Malone, and Kevin Durant on the outside looking in:

1. Shaq -- most physically dominant player ever outside of Wilt
2. Mikan -- most skilled and most physically dominant big of his era, but that era was very weak
3. Curry -- changed the game and shockingly dominant for such a little guy

Certainly open to changing my mind on any or all of the three.

Did Curry change the game, or is it that the rules changed which allowed him to succeed?

In this video at the 14:45 mark,

Bill Simmons: And then David Stern changed the rules so you could succeed

Steve Nash: He said, this guy's got no chance - if they can can put their hands on him, he's cooked.

Watch on YouTube

With all the floor spacing in today's game, Curry is able to get more open looks. The amount of open looks he gets today means more 3 point attempts and a higher 3 point %. Would he be able to get those same looks if we played in a previous era?

Plus, the game is much less physical today - as Simmons and Nash touch on in that podcast. Would Curry be as good in a previous era or would he get tossed around like a rag doll?

[Jordan Syndrome]

No one chased me off the big dominant guys so they are now my 1 and 2. Behind them I have a few more that are very close. Curry, Bird, Magic, Hakeem, Garnett with Oscar, West, Erving, Moses, DRob, Karl Malone, and Kevin Durant on the outside looking in:

1. Shaq -- most physically dominant player ever outside of Wilt
2. Mikan -- most skilled and most physically dominant big of his era, but that era was very weak
3. Curry -- changed the game and shockingly dominant for such a little guy

Certainly open to changing my mind on any or all of the three.

Did Curry change the game, or is it that the rules changed which allowed him to succeed?

In this video at the 14:45 mark,

Bill Simmons: And then David Stern changed the rules so you could succeed

Steve Nash: He said, this guy's got no chance - if they can can put their hands on him, he's cooked.

Watch on YouTube

With all the floor spacing in today's game, Curry is able to get more open looks. The amount of open looks he gets today means more 3 point attempts and a higher 3 point %. Would he be able to get those same looks if we played in a previous era?

Plus, the game is much less physical today - as Simmons and Nash touch on in that podcast. Would Curry be as good in a previous era or would he get tossed around like a rag doll?

1. Curry is bigger than many guards in the 80s

2. Why would Curry not be great? He is one of the best mid-range shooters ever and is great at finishing around the rim.

[limbo]

lol, Curry is constantly getting bumped, hit, checked, pulled etc. especially off-ball

This is literally the most obvious thing every coach/team thought of when defending Curry, to be overly physical with him because he's scrawnier than your typical NBA player.

Watch on YouTube

[No-more-rings]

No one chased me off the big dominant guys so they are now my 1 and 2. Behind them I have a few more that are very close. Curry, Bird, Magic, Hakeem, Garnett with Oscar, West, Erving, Moses, DRob, Karl Malone, and Kevin Durant on the outside looking in:

1. Shaq -- most physically dominant player ever outside of Wilt
2. Mikan -- most skilled and most physically dominant big of his era, but that era was very weak
3. Curry -- changed the game and shockingly dominant for such a little guy

Certainly open to changing my mind on any or all of the three.

I'm shocked you have Curry this high.

What makes him deserving given his severe lack of longevity and durability? Relative to others that is.

[Jordan Syndrome]

No one chased me off the big dominant guys so they are now my 1 and 2. Behind them I have a few more that are very close. Curry, Bird, Magic, Hakeem, Garnett with Oscar, West, Erving, Moses, DRob, Karl Malone, and Kevin Durant on the outside looking in:

1. Shaq -- most physically dominant player ever outside of Wilt
2. Mikan -- most skilled and most physically dominant big of his era, but that era was very weak
3. Curry -- changed the game and shockingly dominant for such a little guy

Certainly open to changing my mind on any or all of the three.

I'm shocked you have Curry this high.

What makes him deserving given his severe lack of longevity and durability? Relative to others that is.

I'm not here to answer for Penbeast but neither Shaq nor Mikan have great longevity.

[Owly]

A case for Jerry West deserving consideration this high:

- Amazing offensive production for his era considering the 60s were less efficient. For his era he was as impressive as a mid 60s TS player would be now. For example in 68 he leads the league in TS with .590 TS% when the league average was .496. In 2020 the league average was .567 meaning West's season would be like putting up .66 TS% in 2020. His 66 efficiency (+8.3) would be like .65 in 2020. West is slightly below peak Curry in TS% but he is up there with Lebron and Durant most efficient seasons. He also did this in a harder era to average assists due to less shooting and stricter ballhandling rules, in that era all you had to do to be top 5 in assists was be around 7 assists per game and he frequently was in the top 5.

- One of the best playoff resumes of all time in terms of raising his game, nicknamed Mr Clutch for a reason. He averaged 30/6/5 in the finals on solid efficiency for his time for his career despite all his finals being against either Russell or the Holzman Knicks.

- Elite level leader and elite level defender for his position - this is main reason I rate him over Oscar. He has stronger defensive reputation than players like Magic and Bird.

- It was nearly impossible to win in the 60s without a center to match up against Russell and Wilt and he almost did it. Several heartbreaking losses - 3 pt in G7 in 62, 2 pt in G7 in 66, 2 pt in G7 in 1969. Both West and Russell were clutch but he Celtics had the horseshoe when it comes to clutch role players otherwise 1 title could have easily been 3 or 4 for West in which case I think people would more regularly rank him top 10.

- Solid longevity of 12 great years in between his first and last, however I understand someone like KG may have edge on him here.

Vs Robertson
Are better leader and better defender true? Are they enough to put him over Robertson, given very similar career metrics with Robertson having 7315 more RS minutes.

Leader: Was West a "leader"? Profiled more as quiet. Baylor the bigger locker-room figure. Maybe by example and with his intensity. Was this better than what Robertson did - intense, demanding, depending on the quotes you believe maybe kind of an ass.

Defender: Reputationally and team level D (though hard to read through the noise - and Oscar led the better offenses). But Oscar has his backers as a defender too.

if you say yes West is better on each, does it show enough of an impact to wipe Robertson's minutes edge?


More generally would advocate for West's standard of play rather than hypothetical rings. On "could easily have been 3 or 4" ... in each series Boston outscore LA, in two of three LA has a win that is as tight ('69) or tighter ('62) than the close game cited - even '66 has a 4 point Boston win so ... based on RS performance (even '69 looking at SRS) Boston would be favored, looking at points diff within series Boston would be favored and if you're leaving all else the same but regarding close games as coin flips ... each year LA need to win both to turn the series outcome. Oh and besides which West is the lead example of why "Ring Count" stinks. He was great in many losing efforts and, by his (very high) standards, very poor in the title LA won.

[Owly]

Copying my post on Olajuwon from #6

My argument against Hakeem is I think his offensive game is slightly overrated because people focus on how many moves he has when the most important part is the ball going in. For example not to compare Hakeem to them, but Kyrie and Melo have a lot of moves but we know being a great scorer means more than that. Who's a better post scorer, Jokic or Embiid - I'm taking Jokic. Jokic is amazing post scoring talent not because of moves but because of his feel putting the ball in.

From 85-92 he is a solid 21-24ppg scorer, but on average about .54-.55 TS, and is turnover prone. As a result he doesn't finish top 20 in OWS any of these seasons. He has 2 top 20 finishes in OWS in his career overall (93 and 94) whereas Duncan has 6 and KG has 8 for example.

I would argue up until 92, Hakeem was on track to have more like an Ewing level career than Duncan. Elite level defensive player (better than Ewing to that point), however flawed on offense. Ewing had the best scoring seasons between the two up through the 92 season with his 90 and 91 years. Yes Hakeem had more moves than Ewing, but I believe sometimes was known for trying to do too much with them. I value 00-03 KG more than 80s and early 90s Hakeem offensively pretty easily personally. He is not even worse as a scorer but is more of a playmaker and spacer.

He changes his career in 93 and at this point he becomes a legit top 10 caliber peak player. I won't deny he improved or how well he did in the playoffs, but he did benefit from the Rockets having a revolutionary jump in 3pt shooting for a champion at that time. The previous champions 3PA were 6.6 for Pistons in 90, 5.2 for Bulls in 91, 5.5 for Bulls in 92, 8.2 for Bulls in 93, and then 15.7 for the Rockets in 94, 1.8 more than 2nd place. They averaged just under 18 in the playoffs. To put in perspective you could be a successful team as late as the Grindhouse Grizzlies in early 2010s shooting less 3s than the Rockets did in 94. That's not to say what he did wasn't amazing, I just don't think Hakeem figured out how to be the perfect post player in his 30s or anything. He was very good offensively in those years but once again wasn't a top 5 offensive player in the league, he wasn't as good as Shaq or Barkley on offense in my opinion.

In 95 he goes from winning DPOY the previous year to not finishing on an All D team, and after the Rockets have been a lock for top 5 defense virtually every year, they fall to 12th and are never great again on defense in the Hakeem era. They win the title but he both has a 2nd star in Drexler and his role players come up big in several series that they could have lost easily. No title is luck but if I had to pick one it would be the 95 Rockets. They win game 5 by 4 at Utah when trailing late, and win Game 7 at Phoenix by 1 point, if one Jazz/Suns player had gotten hot there wouldn't have been anything they could do.

Hakeem finishes 21st all time in WS despite having 2nd and 3rd finishes at his peak in 93 and 94, and 20th in MVP shares despite winning one. I'm not going to take either of these stats at face value but what they tell you is that he performed much better in his peak seasons in both categories than he did the rest of his career. Yet despite that he is frequently ranked about the same place on all time peak lists (9th on 2019 list, 6th on 2015) as on this list. If Olajuwon only had the 9th best peak or so I think he should be out of the top 10 overall. However I understand if people have his peak as top 5-6 or even fringing on GOAT level how they might still have him in the conversation at this point. I personally think as great as his peak was, it benefitted from spacing on offense making it still only a fringe top 10 peak, and considering the rest of his career therefore I don't have him in my overall top 10 and I would even consider players like Dirk or Erving against him, it's not like 1976 Erving or 2011 Dirk is less impressive to me than 94 Hakeem for a peak.

As before don't necessarily disagree with the gist ... "in 95 he goes from winning DPOY the previous year to not finishing on an All D team" seems like ... maybe not the whole story (3rd in DPoY, very slightly ahead of 1st team Robinson). I worry trying to sneak this in might seem cynical - looking for things to criticize.

[70sFan]

No one chased me off the big dominant guys so they are now my 1 and 2. Behind them I have a few more that are very close. Curry, Bird, Magic, Hakeem, Garnett with Oscar, West, Erving, Moses, DRob, Karl Malone, and Kevin Durant on the outside looking in:

1. Shaq -- most physically dominant player ever outside of Wilt
2. Mikan -- most skilled and most physically dominant big of his era, but that era was very weak
3. Curry -- changed the game and shockingly dominant for such a little guy

Certainly open to changing my mind on any or all of the three.

I'm shocked you have Curry this high.

What makes him deserving given his severe lack of longevity and durability? Relative to others that is.

I'm not here to answer for Penbeast but neither Shaq nor Mikan have great longevity.

Both have better longevity than Curry though. Basically all Curry has now is 6 all-nba seasons (2014-19) with a lot of games missed. Say all you want about Shaq, but he was legit all-nba player for 13 years (1994-06), although he also missed a lot of games. I don't know how many Mikan seasons are included in this project, but he also has better longevity than Curry.

[70sFan]

A case for Jerry West deserving consideration this high:

- Amazing offensive production for his era considering the 60s were less efficient. For his era he was as impressive as a mid 60s TS player would be now. For example in 68 he leads the league in TS with .590 TS% when the league average was .496. In 2020 the league average was .567 meaning West's season would be like putting up .66 TS% in 2020. His 66 efficiency (+8.3) would be like .65 in 2020. West is slightly below peak Curry in TS% but he is up there with Lebron and Durant most efficient seasons. He also did this in a harder era to average assists due to less shooting and stricter ballhandling rules, in that era all you had to do to be top 5 in assists was be around 7 assists per game and he frequently was in the top 5.

- One of the best playoff resumes of all time in terms of raising his game, nicknamed Mr Clutch for a reason. He averaged 30/6/5 in the finals on solid efficiency for his time for his career despite all his finals being against either Russell or the Holzman Knicks.

- Elite level leader and elite level defender for his position - this is main reason I rate him over Oscar. He has stronger defensive reputation than players like Magic and Bird.

- It was nearly impossible to win in the 60s without a center to match up against Russell and Wilt and he almost did it. Several heartbreaking losses - 3 pt in G7 in 62, 2 pt in G7 in 66, 2 pt in G7 in 1969. Both West and Russell were clutch but he Celtics had the horseshoe when it comes to clutch role players otherwise 1 title could have easily been 3 or 4 for West in which case I think people would more regularly rank him top 10.

- Solid longevity of 12 great years in between his first and last, however I understand someone like KG may have edge on him here.

Vs Robertson
Are better leader and better defender true? Are they enough to put him over Robertson, given very similar career metrics with Robertson having 7315 more RS minutes.

Leader: Was West a "leader"? Profiled more as quiet. Baylor the bigger locker-room figure. Maybe by example and with his intensity. Was this better than what Robertson did - intense, demanding, depending on the quotes you believe maybe kind of an ass.

Defender: Reputationally and team level D (though hard to read through the noise - and Oscar led the better offenses). But Oscar has his backers as a defender too.

if you say yes West is better on each, does it show enough of an impact to wipe Robertson's minutes edge?


More generally would advocate for West's standard of play rather than hypothetical rings. On "could easily have been 3 or 4" ... in each series Boston outscore LA, in two of three LA has a win that is as tight ('69) or tighter ('62) than the close game cited - even '66 has a 4 point Boston win so ... based on RS performance (even '69 looking at SRS) Boston would be favored, looking at points diff within series Boston would be favored and if you're leaving all else the same but regarding close games as coin flips ... each year LA need to win both to turn the series outcome. Oh and besides which West is the lead example of why "Ring Count" stinks. He was great in many losing efforts and, by his (very high) standards, very poor in the title LA won.

I always defend Oscar's defense but West was far better than him on that end (at least in games I've seen). Oscar was a very solid man defender who gave value with his size and strength on the boards/on switches, but West was among the best defensive guards ever.

In all West games I've seen, he looked just as impressive defensively as on offense. I think I have to make bigger post about his defense.

[Owly]

A case for Jerry West deserving consideration this high:

- Amazing offensive production for his era considering the 60s were less efficient. For his era he was as impressive as a mid 60s TS player would be now. For example in 68 he leads the league in TS with .590 TS% when the league average was .496. In 2020 the league average was .567 meaning West's season would be like putting up .66 TS% in 2020. His 66 efficiency (+8.3) would be like .65 in 2020. West is slightly below peak Curry in TS% but he is up there with Lebron and Durant most efficient seasons. He also did this in a harder era to average assists due to less shooting and stricter ballhandling rules, in that era all you had to do to be top 5 in assists was be around 7 assists per game and he frequently was in the top 5.

- One of the best playoff resumes of all time in terms of raising his game, nicknamed Mr Clutch for a reason. He averaged 30/6/5 in the finals on solid efficiency for his time for his career despite all his finals being against either Russell or the Holzman Knicks.

- Elite level leader and elite level defender for his position - this is main reason I rate him over Oscar. He has stronger defensive reputation than players like Magic and Bird.

- It was nearly impossible to win in the 60s without a center to match up against Russell and Wilt and he almost did it. Several heartbreaking losses - 3 pt in G7 in 62, 2 pt in G7 in 66, 2 pt in G7 in 1969. Both West and Russell were clutch but he Celtics had the horseshoe when it comes to clutch role players otherwise 1 title could have easily been 3 or 4 for West in which case I think people would more regularly rank him top 10.

- Solid longevity of 12 great years in between his first and last, however I understand someone like KG may have edge on him here.

Vs Robertson
Are better leader and better defender true? Are they enough to put him over Robertson, given very similar career metrics with Robertson having 7315 more RS minutes.

Leader: Was West a "leader"? Profiled more as quiet. Baylor the bigger locker-room figure. Maybe by example and with his intensity. Was this better than what Robertson did - intense, demanding, depending on the quotes you believe maybe kind of an ass.

Defender: Reputationally and team level D (though hard to read through the noise - and Oscar led the better offenses). But Oscar has his backers as a defender too.

if you say yes West is better on each, does it show enough of an impact to wipe Robertson's minutes edge?


More generally would advocate for West's standard of play rather than hypothetical rings. On "could easily have been 3 or 4" ... in each series Boston outscore LA, in two of three LA has a win that is as tight ('69) or tighter ('62) than the close game cited - even '66 has a 4 point Boston win so ... based on RS performance (even '69 looking at SRS) Boston would be favored, looking at points diff within series Boston would be favored and if you're leaving all else the same but regarding close games as coin flips ... each year LA need to win both to turn the series outcome. Oh and besides which West is the lead example of why "Ring Count" stinks. He was great in many losing efforts and, by his (very high) standards, very poor in the title LA won.

I always defend Oscar's defense but West was far better than him on that end (at least in games I've seen). Oscar was a very solid man defender who gave value with his size and strength on the boards/on switches, but West was among the best defensive guards ever.

In all West games I've seen, he looked just as impressive defensively as on offense. I think I have to make bigger post about his defense.

I'd guess he is the better and hope I indicated as much. Is there a large advantage? Does it lead to a net impact lead in the limited impact stuff available? Does it overhaul the minutes gap?

[Dr Positivity]

As before don't necessarily disagree with the gist ... "in 95 he goes from winning DPOY the previous year to not finishing on an All D team" seems like ... maybe not the whole story (3rd in DPoY, very slightly ahead of 1st team Robinson). I worry trying to sneak this in might seem cynical - looking for things to criticize.

That's fair, I'm generally against using team offense/defense results anyways, but when it was paired with also falling off in all-defense recognition (although he finished 3rd in DPOY) I thought it was a relevant sign that both suggest it could have been a tipping point in terms of his defense.