7. Larry Bird
8. Magic Johnson
9. Hakeem Olajuwon
My case for Bird:
1) Bird is probably the best all-around player of all time. In terms of all-around game - outside shooting, mid range shooting, shooting off the catch, shooting off the dribble, hitting clutch shots, scoring inside off drives, scoring inside off post moves, scoring on the break, FT shooting. One of the best shooters ever...then you have rebounding - one of the best rebounding forwards ever.
Then you have passing - one of the best passers ever. Outside of Stockton and Magic, I'd say Bird is the best passer ever. -and that. is by no means going out on a limb. The dude saw the game 2 steps ahead of everyone else, so he could make reads / see passes virtually no one else could, his instincts were off the charts. Jordan and Kobe were both amazing scorers and good passers. Magic was an amazing passer and a good scorer. Bird meanwhile was an all-time great at scoring and passing. Only guy who can maybe say that is LeBron and he's already on the list. Bird would literally make perfect passes to teammates setting them up for dunks...while sitting on his butt. He'd set up teammates for baskets with perfect passes...while throwing the pass through the legs of his opponent. He'd throw passes the entire length of the court, and it would still be an absolute laser of a pass, right on the money - passes that most other players could only dream of making.
Then you have defense, the most underrated part of Bird's game. Bird made 2 all-NBA defensive teams but you have to consider the era that he played in. Overall as a league, there was a TON of competition to make all-defensive teams back in Bird's era. There was more defense being played back then - dudes were really getting up in each other's jock, dudes were really going at it and givin' em hell when they played D back then. If Bird played today, he would make at least 5 or 6 all defensive teams. On the flip side, Chris Paul has made 9 all defensive teams and LeBron has made 6...because not as many elite defensive players anymore. You put those 2 dudes in the 80s and you can cut their all defensive selections in half. Not to mention, Bird made one of the greatest defensive plays in NBA history, coming out of nowhere, showing tremendous anticipation by stealing the inbounds pass from Isiah Thomas in game 5 of the 1987 eastern conference finals. That was one of the greatest games of all time and one of the best, most hard fought playoff series' of all time and Bird made the play that won the game and decided the series.
Larry Bird on defense:
2) The Celtics improved by 32 wins after they drafted Bird. They went 29-53 the year before they got Bird in 78-79. That was the 2nd worst record in the entire league and it was the worst season in Celtics franchise history. Then in 79-80, Bird was only a rookie but he made that much of a difference - they went 61-21, sweeping the Rockets in the 1st round of the playoffs before falling to the Sixers in the 2nd round - a Sixers team that gave the Lakers a really tough series in the NBA finals.
So a 32 win improvement after drafting Bird. The Warriors improved by 17 wins after drafting Wilt and the Lakers improved by 13 wins after drafting Magic. Both of those are impressive, but pale in comparison to the impact Bird had after arriving in Boston.
3) Keeping it on the impact Bird had on the Celtics. Bird's last season before the back surgery, Celtics win 57 games in 87-88. Then 88-89, when he missed basically the whole year? They went down to just 42 wins, despite the fact that they still had DJ, Ainge, Parish and McHale - plus Reggie Lewis. Then in 89-90, they get Bird back after the surgery and even though he wasn't close to 100% he still helped them increase their win total from 42 to 52.
4) Let's look at where Bird finished in MVP voting from 1980 to 1988, the first 9 years of his career:
79-80, 4th place
80-81, 2nd place
81-82, 2nd place
82-83, 2nd place
83-84, 1st place
84-85, 1st place
85-86, 1st place
86-87, 3rd place
87-88, 2nd place
Bird won 3 consecutive MVPs. The only other players to win 3 MVPs in a row? Russell and Chamberlain. Bird's career is even more impressive when you consider not only did he win 3 MVPs in a row, but he was 2nd place in MVP voting FOUR times. He finished top 4 in MVP voting every year for each of the first 9 years of his career. That is simply insane and is one of the reasons why guys like Duncan and Garnett don't belong in the same conversation as Bird...especially considering Bird did all of this in a much tougher, more competitive era.
Nobody else has come close to being that good every year for a 9 year stretch, except for maybe Jordan, LeBron, Kareem and Russell. The 4 guys already off the board, so seems logical that Bird is the next guy on this list.
5) Bird was the best player on what many consider to be the best team of all-time, the 86' Celtics. The Celtics went 67-15, and it was very rare for a team to win that many games back then with it being such a competitive league. That season Bird won his third MVP in a row (only other guys to do that are Russell and Wilt), Bird also won his first of 3 straight 3-point shooting contests, he was first team all-NBA, he got 73 out of a possible 78 first place votes for MVP. Bird recorded a triple double in the title clinging game win win over the Rockets. He even had a pretty good argument for being MVP of the all-star game that year, with arguably a better all around stat line than Isiah Thomas who won it. In 85-86 Bird had arguably the best single season in NBA history. And it's not like that was a fluke because he won MVP 2 other times, he was top 2 in MVP voting 7 times and he was top 4 in MVP voting each of his first 9 years in the league.
6) Loyalty is important. It was important to Bird. If we''re talking about. guy who is top 5 of all time, this needs to be a guy who a) never demanded to be traded (that eliminates Magic) b) won a title with the team that drafted him (that eliminates Shaq, Wilt and Garnett) c) never had a feud with a star teammate which resulted in one of the greatest players ever getting traded (that eliminates Shaq) and c) stayed with one team for his whole career
Bird was a quiet kid from a small town and a tiny college. Boston was not the ideal team for him to get drafted by because a) a coach that the players didn't really like..they even got swept by the Bucks in 83 on purpose so he (Fitch) would get fired b) Boston is a big city, a big market, TONS of media pressure/scrutiny which Bird hated..especially since Magic joined the Lakers at the same time and this was right after the 2 of them went head to head in the most watched college basketball game of all time (still to this day) and Magic goes to LA, another big market. So the media for their entire career, especially from their rookie year is hyping up Bird vs Magic, black guy vs white guy. Magic and his personality, he loved it, it didn't bother him. Bird, he was not that type of guy, he hated the spotlight, so having that spotlight/pressure on him made it 10x more difficult for him to perform. Yet, still he did. Still, he won Rookie of the year and not Magic, still Bird won three MVP awards before Magic ever won 1. And while both Bird and Magic stayed with their team for their whole career, only one of them (Magic) demanded to be trded off their team despite the fact that Magic got drafted into a far better situation for her personality - and Magic got drafted to a team that had was already a 50 win team and already had Kareem (who's arguably the GOAT and was in his prime) whereas Bird joined a team that just ahd its worst record in franchise history.
7) You'd be hard pressed to find a player who was more clutch than Bird. He even hit four game tying/winning shots in the same game!
8) Arguably the greatest playoff series of all time is the 81' ECF, sixers vs Celtics. The Sixers made the NBA finals in 80, 82 and 83. So yeah, in 81 they were really good. And the Sixers were up 3 games to 1. Then what?
In game 5, his team had their back against the wall. They had to either win or go home. What did Bird do? He only put up 32 points, 11 rebounds, 5 assists, 3 steals and 2 blocks, leading the Celtics to a 2 point win. Game 6? Again, the Celtics facing elimination. Bird puts up 25 points, 16 rebonds, 4 assists and 2 blocks. Celtics win by 2. Game 7, this one is it, for all the marbles. Bird, only in his second season out of college and facing a Sixers team that was smack dab in the middle of making 3 trips to the NBA finals in 4 years. He puts up 25 points, 11 rebounds, 5 assists, 5 steals, 2 blocks and only 1 turnover. Basically a perfect game and the Celtics needed him to be, because they won by 1 point! Celtics win the series, go to the finals and beat the Rockets. Oh and that wasn't even his best season!
9) Sure, he may have had better teammates, but the fact is Bird was the best player on the Celtics when his Celtics team swept Jordan's Bulls not once but twice in the playoffs. Here's some highlights of what Bird did against Jordan:
10) What other player could showcase so much skill and talent in a single game that they not only lead their team to a win, but they do it against a good team, they score 60 points in that game and they make so many incredible shots that literally players on the opposing team's bench are falling over each other in awe of how good the player is they are going against? Seriously, who else could so something like this?
Even more impressive is that Bird was literally calling some of his shots. He would tell the defender where he was gonna shoot the ball from and still make the shot. He called his shot, saying he was going to fall into the Hawks trainer's lap as he shot the ball - he did it - and he made the shot! Not to mention this game was just a few days after teammate Kevin McHale set the Celtics franchise record for points in a game - so Bird went and broke it in this game.
11) Oh yeah, and the left handed game. Bird said "I'm saving my right hand for the Lakers" then goes out, scores 47 points to go with 14 rebounds and 11 assists, leading the Celtics to an overtime win over the Blazers - he played the game mostly with his left hand, including making 10 shots with his left hand. What other player who's ever played has had the skill (and the balls) to do that? None - just Bird.
12) Bird says his best game ever was game 6 of the 86 finals, when he led the Celtics to the win, closing out the Rockets ( a really good, underrated team) and clinching the title. Bird posted 29 points, 11 rebounds, 12 assists, 3 steals and only 2 turnovers. Celtics win by 17.
13) If that game vs the Rockets was his best game, the regular season game vs the Jazz might be his 2nd best game ever. You know, the one where he had a triple double...after 3 quarters of play! He refused to go back in the game for the 4th quarter, even though he was 1 steal shy of a quadruple double. He played just 3 quarters and 33 minutes but had 30 points, 12 rebounds, 10 assists and 9 steals.
https://www.basketballnetwork.net/larry-bird-near-quadruple-double-game-vs-utah-jazz-in-1985-that-was-what-id-call-a-great-game/14) Still not impressed? How about a play that pretty much no other player ever (except MAYBE Jordan or Dr. J) could have made, but even more impressive because it turned out to be the game winning shot in an NBA finals game!
15) Kareem played against Wilt and he played against Jordan. But Kareem says Bird was the best player he ever played against.
16) Magic could have said Russell, he could have said Kareem, he could have said Jordan, Wilt or Oscar. But he said that Bird was the GOAT.
17) In closing, I'd just like to say that the one thing most of you will point to as being Bird's flaw is lack of longevity. Let me address that here. First off, keep in mind that you should either a) only take longevity into account when comparing players from the same era or b) if taking longevity into account with players from different eras you must consider that because of many factors, it's easier for a 70s player to have a longer career than a 60s player, it's easier for an 80s player to have a longer career than a 70s player, etc.
This is because over time, the conditions have improved which allow players to play longer (less physical play, better travel conditions with 1st class hotels, private jets for modern players, improved sports medicine, nutrition, weight training, strength and conditioning, players in modern era less likely to play hurt, less likely to play through pain, star players in modern era play less minutes per game, players in modern era have more days off between games to recover, facilities have improved over time, so has equipment, etc.
That's why Bird's longevity might look bad by today's standards. But in his era, playing for 13 seasons - 1 where he was injured most of the season so 12 full seasons. In his era, that was actually good longevity. McHale played 13 seasons, Isiah played 13 seasons, Magic played 12 seasons. Alex English played 14 full seasons but his rookie year he only averaged 5 points a game so pretty much he only played 13 seasons too. Sikma played 14 seasons. Bobby Jones played 11 seasons.
Owly tried to prove my longevity argument wrong in the last thread by rattling off a list of guys from Bird's era who played longer but a) most of those guys were role players like Tree Rollins and Derek Harper - yeah it's easier to play more seasons when you play way less minutes. He listed guys like Terry Cummings, who played 18 seasons but for 8 of them he was a bench warmer whose minutes and production took a huge nose dive. We're only talking 10 quality seasons with him - meanwhile Bird was a 12 time all-star. He also mentioned Barkley, Hakeem and Stockton but those guys all got drafted 5 years after Bird so they were able to have longer careers because more of their careers took place after there was improvements in facilities, equipment, better strength and conditioning, better weight training, nutrition, more days off between games to recover, less hard fouls, etc. That 5 years makes a difference.
Sure, Bird wasn't as good during the 3 seasons he played after the back surgery, but he was still an all-star all 3 of those seasons and he made 2nd team all-NBA in one of those seasons. So a) he was still very good during his last 3 seasons after the surgery and b) he was just so damn good during those first 9 years, literally had arguably the best 9 year stretch of any player ever - that IMO you put those 12 years together and you have a top 3 or 4 player of all time, definitely top 5. Maybe no one else on this board agrees with me, but that's ok. I know there's many others out there who know how good Bird was, who know the impact he had on the league, on the game of basketball and how much his teammates and opponents respected him.