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Title says it all. Who had the better season?

Man... I'm going to say Luka. And that means a lot cause 03 T-Mac was super great.

Luka cannot do what he did in the '03 era but Tmac can easily do what he did in the '20 era. It's that simple.

2klegend wrote:Luka cannot do what he did in the '03 era but Tmac can easily do what he did in the '20 era. It's that simple.

agree with the first part, not sure about the second.

Tmacs two way impact puts him clearly above though

MyUniBroDavis wrote:

2klegend wrote:Luka cannot do what he did in the '03 era but Tmac can easily do what he did in the '20 era. It's that simple.

agree with the first part, not sure about the second.

Tmacs two way impact puts him clearly above though

Tracy wasn't anything special defensively in that season. The truth is that he rarely played singificant role on defense.

70sFan wrote:

MyUniBroDavis wrote:

2klegend wrote:Luka cannot do what he did in the '03 era but Tmac can easily do what he did in the '20 era. It's that simple.

agree with the first part, not sure about the second.

Tmacs two way impact puts him clearly above though

Tracy wasn't anything special defensively in that season. The truth is that he rarely played singificant role on defense.

I mean, i wasnt watching so im just remembering from the POY discussion when I was a freshman in highschool lol but i remember they were hyping up his defense hella

MyUniBroDavis wrote:

70sFan wrote:

MyUniBroDavis wrote:
agree with the first part, not sure about the second.

Tmacs two way impact puts him clearly above though

Tracy wasn't anything special defensively in that season. The truth is that he rarely played singificant role on defense.

I mean, i wasnt watching so im just remembering from the POY discussion when I was a freshman in highschool lol but i remember they were hyping up his defense hella

I know that, he went to the league as defensive specialist with offensive potential and he had his moments on that end, but prime Tmac was mostly focused on offensive side of the floor.

You can read a lot about Tracy from this outstanding post (Pocky mentions that Tracy was more times bad than good defensively in Magic years):

viewtopic.php?t=1561093

I also recommand watching the video, the best available about peak Tmac.

2klegend wrote:Luka cannot do what he did in the '03 era but Tmac can easily do what he did in the '20 era. It's that simple.

I hate these type of arguments but i do have to ask...

Why not? PnR action didn't exist back then? 1v1 didn't exist back then? Or will you bring up defense and less spacing? ... Keep in mind, he grew up in Euroleague, where there is basically no spacing and it is tough to play 1v1. That is basically signature Doncic game, and obviously Lebron type of passing skills... Saying that he couldn't do that in 03' is ridiculous.

Same thing goes for Tmac. He was one of my favourite players back then. He was a force on offense, really good scorer. I see no reason why he couldn't play like that today.

I'm not ready to put Luka over peak Tmac yet. What has he done to deserve it?

Archx wrote:

2klegend wrote:Luka cannot do what he did in the '03 era but Tmac can easily do what he did in the '20 era. It's that simple.

I hate these type of arguments but i do have to ask...

Why not? PnR action didn't exist back then? 1v1 didn't exist back then? Or will you bring up defense and less spacing? ... Keep in mind, he grew up in Euroleague, where there is basically no spacing and it is tough to play 1v1. That is basically signature Doncic game, and obviously Lebron type of passing skills... Saying that he couldn't do that in 03' is ridiculous.

Same thing goes for Tmac. He was one of my favourite players back then. He was a force on offense, really good scorer. I see no reason why he couldn't play like that today.

I think the argument is nonsensical even if I voted McGrady. After all, all the advanced stats advantage McGrady, mostly because it was a low scoring era. Per 100 possessions advantage Luka, because McGrady played more minutes, but I think McGrady is still the right answer. The idea that Luka "can not" do what McGrady did is really weird though. He's not the same type of scorers, but he compensates for it with better playmaking. I'm not even sure what the statement means.

No-more-rings wrote:I'm not ready to put Luka over peak Tmac yet. What has he done to deserve it?

What has McGrady done to be ranked ahead of Luka? Most all-time greats proved their value consistently, but McGrady didn't prove much in his career.

No-more-rings wrote:I'm not ready to put Luka over peak Tmac yet. What has he done to deserve it?

What did Tmac do in 2003 exactly? I wouldn't quite put Luka over 2003 McGrady, but you're acting as if McGrady was the MVP, led his team to a high seed and advanced far in the playoffs. Tmac did almost exactly the same as Luka, maybe a little less.

Both 4th in MVP voting.
Both 1st team All-NBA.
Both all-star starters
Both eliminated in the first round against a far better team. Both played really well in the playoffs.

Orlando 8th seed (.512, in weaker East, wouldn't have made the playoffs in the West) vs Dallas 7th seed (.573).

70sFan wrote:

No-more-rings wrote:I'm not ready to put Luka over peak Tmac yet. What has he done to deserve it?

What has McGrady done to be ranked ahead of Luka? Most all-time greats proved their value consistently, but McGrady didn't prove much in his career.

You can't bring up consistency when Luka's only played two seasons. I'm not saying he won't end up peaking higher, i just don't think we can conclude he already did.

No-more-rings wrote:

70sFan wrote:

No-more-rings wrote:I'm not ready to put Luka over peak Tmac yet. What has he done to deserve it?

What has McGrady done to be ranked ahead of Luka? Most all-time greats proved their value consistently, but McGrady didn't prove much in his career.

You can't bring up consistency when Luka's only played two seasons. I'm not saying he won't end up peaking higher, i just don't think we can conclude he already did.

I can, because Tmac wasn't consistent at all - which gives him no advantage over Luka in this aspect.

leolozon wrote:

No-more-rings wrote:I'm not ready to put Luka over peak Tmac yet. What has he done to deserve it?

What did Tmac do in 2003 exactly? I wouldn't quite put Luka over 2003 McGrady, but you're acting as if McGrady was the MVP, led his team to a high seed and advanced far in the playoffs. Tmac did almost exactly the same as Luka, maybe a little less.

Both 4th in MVP voting.
Both 1st team All-NBA.
Both all-star starters
Both eliminated in the first round against a far better team. Both played really well in the playoffs.

Orlando 8th seed (.512, in weaker East, wouldn't have made the playoffs in the West) vs Dallas 7th seed (.573).

I simply find Tmac's offensive production more impressive given how tough the defensive environment was back then. It was very tough for players to score efficiently in 03, and Tmac averaged over 32 ppg on +4.5 relative ts% and propelled a poor cast to a top 10 offense. Outlier season or not, he was great Luka's sample of greatness isn't huge either.

70sFan wrote:

No-more-rings wrote:

70sFan wrote:What has McGrady done to be ranked ahead of Luka? Most all-time greats proved their value consistently, but McGrady didn't prove much in his career.

You can't bring up consistency when Luka's only played two seasons. I'm not saying he won't end up peaking higher, i just don't think we can conclude he already did.

I can, because Tmac wasn't consistent at all - which gives him no advantage over Luka in this aspect.

I didn't say it gives him an advantage.

leolozon wrote:

Archx wrote:

2klegend wrote:Luka cannot do what he did in the '03 era but Tmac can easily do what he did in the '20 era. It's that simple.

I hate these type of arguments but i do have to ask...

Why not? PnR action didn't exist back then? 1v1 didn't exist back then? Or will you bring up defense and less spacing? ... Keep in mind, he grew up in Euroleague, where there is basically no spacing and it is tough to play 1v1. That is basically signature Doncic game, and obviously Lebron type of passing skills... Saying that he couldn't do that in 03' is ridiculous.

Same thing goes for Tmac. He was one of my favourite players back then. He was a force on offense, really good scorer. I see no reason why he couldn't play like that today.

I think the argument is nonsensical even if I voted McGrady. After all, all the advanced stats advantage McGrady, mostly because it was a low scoring era. Per 100 possessions advantage Luka, because McGrady played more minutes, but I think McGrady is still the right answer. The idea that Luka "can not" do what McGrady did is really weird though. He's not the same type of scorers, but he compensates for it with better playmaking. I'm not even sure what the statement means.

Yeah i know and i didn't even want to say how i would have voted because that is not really something i want to get in to. But everytime similar discussion comes up about modern players like they wouldn't be able to do that in the older days... it kinda puzzles me why people think so.

Archx wrote:

leolozon wrote:

Archx wrote:
I hate these type of arguments but i do have to ask...

Why not? PnR action didn't exist back then? 1v1 didn't exist back then? Or will you bring up defense and less spacing? ... Keep in mind, he grew up in Euroleague, where there is basically no spacing and it is tough to play 1v1. That is basically signature Doncic game, and obviously Lebron type of passing skills... Saying that he couldn't do that in 03' is ridiculous.

Same thing goes for Tmac. He was one of my favourite players back then. He was a force on offense, really good scorer. I see no reason why he couldn't play like that today.

I think the argument is nonsensical even if I voted McGrady. After all, all the advanced stats advantage McGrady, mostly because it was a low scoring era. Per 100 possessions advantage Luka, because McGrady played more minutes, but I think McGrady is still the right answer. The idea that Luka "can not" do what McGrady did is really weird though. He's not the same type of scorers, but he compensates for it with better playmaking. I'm not even sure what the statement means.

Yeah i know and i didn't even want to say how i would have voted because that is not really something i want to get in to. But everytime similar discussion comes up about modern players like they wouldn't be able to do that in the older days... it kinda puzzles me why people think so.

Some of these talk are true though - Harden wouldn't make his moves in the 1970s, Warriors wouldn't run their offense based on moving screens, Curry wouldn't be as efficient without three point line, Shaq wouldn't be able to run through defenders in 1960s. You have to adjust for different rules and different officiating.

wtf is this nonsense everybody talking...

Use PER and eyetest to settle all this.

Tracy McGrady easily beats out Luka Doncic in PER and eyetest.

Firebird1 wrote:wtf is this nonsense everybody talking...

Use PER and eyetest to settle all this.

Tracy McGrady easily beats out Luka Doncic in PER and eyetest.

Not saying Doncic peak is necessarily better than TMac, but PER ? Really ? Are we in 2010 or something ?