1. LeBron James
2. Michael Jordan
3. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
4. Bill Russell
5. Tim Duncan
6. Wilt Chamberlain
7. Magic Johnson
8. Shaquille O'Neal
9. ???
Target stop time will be ~3pm EST on Sunday.
Moderators: PaulieWal, Doctor MJ, Clyde Frazier, penbeast0, trex_8063
He had to go through Stockton and Malone in 5 games, then Barkley and the Suns took them to seven, and finally David Robinson and the Spurs in 6. Later on, he put the cherry on top of the sundae by sweeping a young Shaquille O’Neal and the Orlando Magic.
90sAllDecade wrote:1. Hakeem
2. Bird
3. Garnett (open to thoughts vs Kobe, West and Oscar)
When analyzing players many people look at team success but don’t analyze team support and competition. I personally don’t evaluate individual players on team based metrics or accolades, but if I did I would also go all the way and examine team support, competition and coaching. We should focus on that and I'll add more later.
Hakeem Winning the Most Difficult Championship Path in NBA History:
The Top 10 Teams Who Had The Toughest Path To An NBA Title Ever
1. Houston Rockets (1995)
Opponents combined winning percentage: 72.6%
60-22 Jazz, 59-23 Suns, 62-20 Spurs, and 57-25 Magic
2. Chicago Bulls (1997)
Opponents combined winning percentage: 68.6%
44-38 Bullets, 56-26 Hawks, 61-21 Heat, and 64-18 Jazz
3. Cleveland Cavaliers (2016)
Opponents combined winning percentage: 67.4%
44-38 Pistons, 48-34 Hawks, 56-26 Raptors, and 73-9 Warriors
https://fadeawayworld.net/2020/05/27/top-10-teams-had-the-toughest-path-to-an-nba-title-ever/He had to go through Stockton and Malone in 5 games, then Barkley and the Suns took them to seven, and finally David Robinson and the Spurs in 6. Later on, he put the cherry on top of the sundae by sweeping a young Shaquille O’Neal and the Orlando Magic.
Looking into it VORP (from BPM) has Olajuwon narrowly 4th on his own team in the series, 6th overall.
Horry: 0.412195122
Hardaway: 0.363414634
O'Neal: 0.329268293
Elie: 0.3
Drexler: 0.267073171
Olajuwon: 0.264634146
penbeast0 wrote:Other floor raisers like Hakeem almost always have top 5 defenses built around them. Maybe because it's easier to build around a rim protector. It was 2004 before Minnesota with Garnett even cracked the top 10, they were in the bottom half of the league a long time.
This is an outstanding post and speaks to the elephant in the room, the guys in this GOAT list needed team support to win, even Jordan, Kareem, LeBron, Garnett, everyone.
Some were fortunate to have played with an all star or Mt. Rushmore coach thier entire career (Russell, Magic, Bird, Duncan with Pops and even Wilt with his quota all stars back then.)
Mt. Rushmore coach being the four greatest coaches of all time imo, Auerbach, Jackson, Riley and Pops in no particular order. Some would argue Larry Brown as well, but I'll leave him off for now and may add him later.
But if you really want to separate the wheat from the chaff, see how those guys did without that team support, in adverse situations.
This comparison shows how the GOAT players fared without an all star or Mt. Rushmore coach, it is incomplete as it only happened to a few players certain years.
90sAllDecade wrote:When comparing players and looking at team success for thier career, it's important to look at thier team support, coaching and competition. Bird was gifted with some of the best supporting casts in comparision for his career vs Hakeem or even Garnett.
And a Mt. Rushmore coach can be regarded as one of arguably the for GOAT coaches of all time: Jackson, Auerbach, Riley and Pops. Some can argue Larry Brown, but I may add him later.
Team Support Comparison: Bird vs Hakeem
Larry Bird:
13 years
Years with 1 All Star Player: x13
Two All Star player: x10
Hakeem:
17 years
Years with 1 All Star Player: x7
Two All Star player: x1
penbeast0 wrote:I don't think of trash talk as a positive. If you do, shouldn't you be a big fan of Kevin Garnett and his barking dog antics too?
SHAQ32 wrote:90sAllDecade wrote:When comparing players and looking at team success for thier career, it's important to look at thier team support, coaching and competition. Bird was gifted with some of the best supporting casts in comparision for his career vs Hakeem or even Garnett.
And a Mt. Rushmore coach can be regarded as one of arguably the for GOAT coaches of all time: Jackson, Auerbach, Riley and Pops. Some can argue Larry Brown, but I may add him later.
Team Support Comparison: Bird vs Hakeem
Larry Bird:
13 years
Years with 1 All Star Player: x13
Two All Star player: x10
Hakeem:
17 years
Years with 1 All Star Player: x7
Two All Star player: x1
Hakeem had clutch role players that consistently stepped up in big moments. Mario Elie, Kenny Smith, Vernon Maxwell, Robert Horry, Sam Cassell. For example, those guys were key difference-makers in the sweep of the Magic in 95. Well, that and Nick Anderson choking, Dennis Scott disappearing. But anyway that's something the relatively simplistic "x years with all-star" argument fails to include. Otis Thorpe was one of the most consistent PF's of the era and only made 1 asg.
Owly wrote:penbeast0 wrote:Other floor raisers like Hakeem almost always have top 5 defenses built around them. Maybe because it's easier to build around a rim protector. It was 2004 before Minnesota with Garnett even cracked the top 10, they were in the bottom half of the league a long time.
Given this seems to be your big ding on Garnett I'd suggest the latter half of his career he was pretty consistently making a big impact on D
https://www.cleaningtheglass.com/stats/player/1244/onoff#tab-team_efficiency
and yeah even before Minny were competent
https://sites.google.com/site/rapmstats/2003-rapm
https://sites.google.com/site/rapmstats/2003-npi-rapm
https://sites.google.com/site/rapmstats/2002-rapm
https://sites.google.com/site/rapmstats/2002-npi-rapm
https://sites.google.com/site/rapmstats/2001-npi-rapm
https://ascreamingcomesacrossthecourt.blogspot.com/2014/03/2000-rapm-non-prior-and-prior-informed.html
he was having an impact on D. Not always huge but then looking at the on-off number net (i.e. both ends) pretty much always pretty darned big https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/g/garneke01.html.
I can't see in what you say where you go Hakeem above Garnett overall. And Garnett had longevity, box composites (even pure rate version of PER, Hakeem's one advantage, go 97-13 Garnett is basically tied 23.5 to Hakeem's 23.59, with Garnett still having slight minutes edge and then the other years are an added bonus), he's got far greater evidence/confidence of impact. And some evidence of greater impact (Hakeem's 94-96 on-off stuff, whilst strong, is not at peak KG level and this covers most of Hakeem's very best years). Hakeem has the playoff productivity.
90sAllDecade wrote:When comparing players and looking at team success for thier career, it's important to look at thier team support, coaching and competition. Bird was gifted with some of the best supporting casts in comparision for his career vs Hakeem or even Garnett.
And a Mt. Rushmore coach can be regarded as one of arguably the for GOAT coaches of all time: Jackson, Auerbach, Riley and Pops. Some can argue Larry Brown, but I may add him later.
Team Support Comparison: Bird vs Hakeem
Larry Bird:
13 years
Years with 1 All Star Player: x13
Two All Star player: x10
Hakeem:
17 years
Years with 1 All Star Player: x7
Two All Star player: x1
So Bird benefited from much better team support vs Hakeem with many years with at least one and ten years with two all star players.
I will note Garnett had the worst supporting cast of the three and that hurt his success in Minnesota, but like Hakeem he succeeded when finally having talent around him. So he definitely deserves that to his credit.
But let's compare those two. What happens when they both didn't have an all star player around them or a Mt. Rushmore coach?This is an outstanding post and speaks to the elephant in the room, the guys in this GOAT list needed team support to win, even Jordan, Kareem, LeBron, Garnett, everyone.
Some were fortunate to have played with an all star or Mt. Rushmore coach thier entire career (Russell, Magic, Bird, Duncan with Pops and even Wilt with his quota all stars back then.)
Mt. Rushmore coach being the four greatest coaches of all time imo, Auerbach, Jackson, Riley and Pops in no particular order. Some would argue Larry Brown as well, but I'll leave him off for now and may add him later.
But if you really want to separate the wheat from the chaff, see how those guys did without that team support, in adverse situations.
This comparison shows how the GOAT players fared without an all star or Mt. Rushmore coach, it is incomplete as it only happened to a few players certain years.
Also for comparison here is Jordan, Kareem, Shaq and Kobe thrown in. Aside from perhaps LeBron, who still had Irving and Love who missed the AS game, none had the success Hakeem had without a second all star player.
All Time Players: Years with No All Star Comparison
***Larry Bird never had a single year in his career without a second all star player on his team
https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/BOS/all_star.html
Jordan (no Pippen, Grant or Phil Jackson):
84-85 (Rookie):
38-44, -0.50 SRS, 11th Ortg, 20th Drtg, Lost 1st Round
85-86 (Injured for season, healthy for Playoffs):
30-52, -3.12 SRS, 8th Ortg, 23rd Drtg, Lost 1st Round
86-87 (Coaching change):
40-42, 1.27 SRS, 12th Ortg, 11th Drtg, Lost 1st Round
Kareem (no Oscar, Magic or Pat Riley):
75-76:
40-42, 0.17 SRS, 7th Ortg, 13th Drtg, No playoff appearance
76-77 (Coaching change):
53-29, 2.65 SRS, 5th Ortg, 10th Drtg, Lost WCF (1st round byes back then)
77-78:
45-37, 2.59 SRS, 3rd Ortg, 11th Drtg, Lost 1st Round
79-80:
47-35, 2.95 SRS, 5th Ortg, 10th Drtg, Lost 2nd Round
Shaq (No All star player, Phil Jackson or Pat Riley):
92-93 (Rookie):
41-41, 1.35 SRS, 13th Ortg, 12th Drtg, No playoff appearance
93-94 (Coaching change):
50-32, 3.68 SRS, 3rd Ortg, 15th Drtg, Lost 1st Round
Kevin Garnett (No All star players):
95-96 (Rookie, High School player):
26-56, -5.14 SRS, 25 Ortg, 20th Drtg, No playoff appearance
97-98 (Coaching change):
45-37, 0.17 SRS, 7th Ortg, 23rd Drtg, Lost 1st Round
98-99 (Lockout year, only 50 games played):
25-25. -0.17 SRS, 17th Ortg, 11 Drtg, Lost 1st Round
99-00:
50-32, 2.67 SRS, 8th Ortg, 12th Drtg, Lost 1st Round
00-01:
47-35, 1.81 SRS, 11th Ortg, 16th Drtg, Lost 1st Round
02-03:
51-31, 2.46 SRS, 5th Ortg, 16th Drtg, Lost 1st Round
04-05:
44-38, 1.73 SRS, 6th Ortg, 15th Drtg, No playoff appearance
05-06 (coaching change):
33-49,-1.75 SRS, 28th Ortg, 10th Drtg, No playoff appearance
06-07:
32-50, -3.16 SRS, 25th Ortg, 21st Drtg, No playoff appearance
Kobe Bryant (No All star player or Phil Jackson):
04-05 (Young non all-star Lamar Odom, year 5 on team)
34-48, -2.33 SRS, 7th Ortg, 30th Drtg, No playoff appearance
Kobe with no Shaq or All Star player but adding Phil Jackson
05-06 (18 year old, High School rookie Andrew Bynum joins team)
45-37, 2.52 SRS, 8th Ortg, 15th Drtg, Lost 1st Round
06-07
42-40, 0.24 SRS, 7th Ortg, 24th Drtg, Lost 1st Round
07-08 (Added Pau Gasol and Derek Fisher comes back)
57-25, 7.34 SRS, 3rd Ortg, 5th Drtg, Lost Finals
LeBron James (no All star player):
03-04 (Rookie, High School player):
35-47, -3.07 SRS, 22nd Ortg, 19th Drtg, No playoff apperance
05-06 (Coaching change):
50-32, 2.17 SRS, 9th Ortg, 14th Drtg, Lost 2nd Round
06-07:
50-32, 3.33 SRS, 18th Ortg, 4th Drtg, Lost in Finals
07-08:
45-37, -0.53 SRS, 20th Ortg, 11th Drtg, Lost in 2nd Round
09-10:
61-21, 6.17 SRS, 6th Ortg, 7th Drtg, Lost in 2nd Round
15-16:
57-25, 5.45 SRS, 3rd Ortg, 10th Drtg, Won Championship (*Big note: He had Irving and Love for the playoff run. Irving had injuries and missed the All Star game)
18-19:
37-45, -1.33 SRS, 24th Ortg, 12th Drtg, No Playoff Appearance (LeBron also had injuries playing 55 games)
Hakeem Olajuwon (No All star player):
87-88:
46-36, .082 SRS, 13th Ortg, 4th Drtg, Lost 1st Round
88-89 (Coaching change, Don Chaney):
45-37, 0.22 SRS, 18th Ortg, 4th Drtg, Lost 1st Round
89-90:
41-41, 1.71 SRS, 21 Ortg, 1st Drtg, Lost 1st Round
92-93 (Coaching change, Rudy T):
55-27, 3.57 SRS, 6th Ortg, 3rd Drtg, Lost 2nd Round
93-94:
58-24, 4.19 SRS, 15th Ortg, 2nd Drtg, Won NBA Championship