2020-21 NBA Season Discussion

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Re: 2020-21 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#1461 » by Dupp » Sun Apr 4, 2021 8:54 am

Doctor MJ wrote:
Peregrine01 wrote:
Doctor MJ wrote:I'll say this just for solidarity - trying to avoid getting sucked in to something that will just piss me off:

What Durant said was clear cut homophobia.

I've seen a lot of folks online say stuff like "Oh, in 2021 now THAT's homophobia, ridiculous?", but these people just never understood the concept in the first place. When a straight man looks to insult another straight man by insinuating he's gay, this is an attempt to make the other man feel like he's something "less than a real man" by playing on societal notions of being afraid to be seen as gay. Hence, "homophobia".

It really isn't that complicated. Whenever you try to insult someone by equating them with something their not, you're demeaning that thing their not, and there are concepts attached to it.

Worth noting that Rapaport has all sorts of misogeny all over the stuff he says. It may be that he draws the line with homophobia, or it may not, but from a perspective of understanding Durant, arguing he's better or worse than Rapaport misses the point. Durant is quite clearly someone who has internalized a great deal of homophobia and misogeny to go along with his ever-present insecurities pertaining to his basketball play and his stalker-like tendency to obsess in anger toward people in the media.

I honestly don't say any of this to damn or "cancel" him. He's a ball player. I expect he's going to be able to keep playing ball for a long time because he's great at it. But he's also a remarkable case study of someone who probably has a pretty decent IQ just stepping on rakes over and over again in the social media age, and each time he does so he adds to his list of people he considers his adversaries, which only makes things worse.


Can't say I find anyone in sports more unlikable than him right now. Also find it blatantly hypocritical how the NBA and the media have handled this...they've kind of swept it under the rug yet they had no problem cancelling Meyers Leonard, who we haven't gotten his side of the story from and perhaps didn't even know the word was a racial epithet.


Good point. They are punishing Durant, and but it would seem no suspension. Maybe they think the fact he's injured makes this moot, but they shouldn't. Durant should be getting at least as much as Leonard got.





I do think Myers is without a doubt a racist.

KD however I can’t say for sure that I think he’s homophobic. What he said and how he spoke was homophobic. But a lot of people still speak like that. Call things “gay” to mean bad. “You’re a f word” Etc. That kind of language is usually coming from a 15 year old though. KD definitely lacks some mental development. Maybe he has an issue with gays maybe he’s just a moron. I don’t know for sure.


This kind of talk needs a lot more education around it. It’s kinda ignored but it can really hurt young people struggling with acceptance. Unfortunately a lot of People that have never faced prejudice just say stuff like “ it’s only words toughen up etc” and it’s spilling over to this generation.
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Re: 2020-21 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#1462 » by Dupp » Sun Apr 4, 2021 8:59 am

Texas Chuck wrote:
Joey Wheeler wrote:I've never been very high on Chris Paul, but the evidence is too overwhelming at this point, every team he joins gets exponentially better immediately or greatly surpasses expectations.


Same. But he's basically become Jason Kidd 2.0 for me. I have some specific criticisms about his game, but the bottom line is when those guys come to your team you quickly do a lot more winning than you did before and when they leave, you do a lot less.

Chris Paul has mastered how to win NBA games and when it comes down to it nothing else much matters really.



He’s his own worst enemy. Too many wasted playoffs in his prime due to injury. It’s a shame .
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Re: 2020-21 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#1463 » by Ballerhogger » Sun Apr 4, 2021 12:16 pm

3 + 40 point losses last night warriors lost more than 50 . Not good look at all. Luckily March madness was on last night
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Re: 2020-21 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#1464 » by MartinToVaught » Sun Apr 4, 2021 2:30 pm

Read on Twitter


Really speaks volumes that this is what the NBA puts out there on the same night as UCLA/Gonzaga (one of the best basketball games ever played on any level). Sadly, if Silver even bothers reacting to how bad this product has become, he'll probably just change the rules to punish rebuilding teams even more and keep ignoring the actual problems - anti-competitive "superstars," toxic media coverage, out-of-control flopping, overreliance on the three-point shot, etc. And when he's not busy screwing over small-market teams who have increasingly limited options to get better, he's coming up with dumb gimmicks that nobody asked for like the play-in games. :noway:

I never thought I'd see the day where college basketball was more fun than the NBA, but here we are. It's the exact opposite of football, where the fall of the Patriots dynasty combined with the CFP era's stagnation has made the NFL more entertaining than college football for me for the first time ever.
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Re: 2020-21 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#1465 » by Doctor MJ » Sun Apr 4, 2021 6:03 pm

Dupp wrote:
Doctor MJ wrote:
Peregrine01 wrote:
Can't say I find anyone in sports more unlikable than him right now. Also find it blatantly hypocritical how the NBA and the media have handled this...they've kind of swept it under the rug yet they had no problem cancelling Meyers Leonard, who we haven't gotten his side of the story from and perhaps didn't even know the word was a racial epithet.


Good point. They are punishing Durant, and but it would seem no suspension. Maybe they think the fact he's injured makes this moot, but they shouldn't. Durant should be getting at least as much as Leonard got.





I do think Myers is without a doubt a racist.

KD however I can’t say for sure that I think he’s homophobic. What he said and how he spoke was homophobic. But a lot of people still speak like that. Call things “gay” to mean bad. “You’re a f word” Etc. That kind of language is usually coming from a 15 year old though. KD definitely lacks some mental development. Maybe he has an issue with gays maybe he’s just a moron. I don’t know for sure.


This kind of talk needs a lot more education around it. It’s kinda ignored but it can really hurt young people struggling with acceptance. Unfortunately a lot of People that have never faced prejudice just say stuff like “ it’s only words toughen up etc” and it’s spilling over to this generation.


So I appreciate that big picture we're coming from the same place but I don't think it makes sense to minimize what we saw from Durant:

1. It's important not to look at the term "homophobic" as some kind of outlier thing. If you were born and raised in American masculine culture, you probably have at least vestiges of homophobia in your latent insecurities. As someone who grew up 1) playing "Smear the Queer", 2) being mocked as being gay (which I wasn't), and 3) bullying a couple of my gay peers myself, I'm not under any illusion the way my culture's norms shaped me.

2. This is another way of saying, if you're still saying "gay" as negative, you've still got internalized homophobia. The idea that that isn't what that is, is rationalization.

As I say this:

3. What Durant said was not remotely like saying "gay" as a negative, and I kinda thought it went without saying that everyone understood that right from the start. I'll refrain from copying KD's language here as I'm assuming everyone chiming in has already read it, but let it suffice to say that Durant's language went on and on with a similar theme that was clearly intended specifically to 1) emasculate and 2) display disgust, and both of these things reveal a great deal about where Durant's mind is at.

Is he the only one like this? Hell, no, he's quite clearly the product of a culture.

He is however an unusually big superstar to keep letting this stuff out however. What's distinct about Durant is not the homophobia, misogeny, or racism he displayed in those tweets, but in the fact that he's really got a tendency to get stuck in obsessive negative thought loops that has now come to actively corrode his ability to interact with other people.

I'll add that I'm seeing some folks do the whole "whatabout" thing about LeBron or Curry when Durant is criticized and to me this is so problematic. LeBron may be a serial killer for all I know, but he's not actively sabotaging himself while making himself miserable the way Durant is.

Durant has issues, and he has these particular issues considerably more than most who reach such rarefied air.
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Re: 2020-21 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#1466 » by bondom34 » Sun Apr 4, 2021 6:23 pm

Doctor MJ wrote:
1. It's important not to look at the term "homophobic" as some kind of outlier thing. If you were born and raised in American masculine culture, you probably have at least vestiges of homophobia in your latent insecurities. As someone who grew up 1) playing "Smear the Queer", 2) being mocked as being gay (which I wasn't), and 3) bullying a couple of my gay peers myself, I'm not under any illusion the way my culture's norms shaped me.

2. This is another way of saying, if you're still saying "gay" as negative, you've still got internalized homophobia. The idea that that isn't what that is, is rationalization.

As I say this:

3. What Durant said was not remotely like saying "gay" as a negative, and I kinda thought it went without saying that everyone understood that right from the start. I'll refrain from copying KD's language here as I'm assuming everyone chiming in has already read it, but let it suffice to say that Durant's language went on and on with a similar theme that was clearly intended specifically to 1) emasculate and 2) display disgust, and both of these things reveal a great deal about where Durant's mind is at.

Is he the only one like this? Hell, no, he's quite clearly the product of a culture.

He is however an unusually big superstar to keep letting this stuff out however. What's distinct about Durant is not the homophobia, misogeny, or racism he displayed in those tweets, but in the fact that he's really got a tendency to get stuck in obsessive negative thought loops that has now come to actively corrode his ability to interact with other people.

I'll add that I'm seeing some folks do the whole "whatabout" thing about LeBron or Curry when Durant is criticized and to me this is so problematic. LeBron may be a serial killer for all I know, but he's not actively sabotaging himself while making himself miserable the way Durant is.

Durant has issues, and he has these particular issues considerably more than most who reach such rarefied air.

Think 3 is the "biggest" point maybe, but there's also some context as well. It's definitely become overly normalized, though will say even some usage of the term in a possibly negative fashion has become almost to meme away the negative connotations. I have seen (and am not certain but think I've even seen people who are homosexual themselves) use or meme the phrase "fellas is it gay to...." as a joke, which has become sort of a way on social media to clown emasculating use of the term. You can search for origins of the meme, but its generally clowning on people who use it as a pejorative. Which I guess thinking further sort of goes with your point since in some way then its not being used negatively, just in a different way.

Struggling to otherwise find context but know that became a somewhat popular thing a while ago, and don't know if you are on social media, but that's about the only way I've seen it used where in some context it's used in a way that reads negative but is more meant to clown the negativity. I'll credit some segments of society where we're making progress I think, though Durant's comments show we're not there yet.

Edit: I may also be wrong on this and rationalizing here myself, in which case call me on it and apologies. But thinking further I guess that usage really isn't negative, its kind of clowning folks who use it negatively.
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Re: 2020-21 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#1467 » by Brofessor24 » Sun Apr 4, 2021 7:33 pm

goober wrote:
Brofessor24 wrote:
goober wrote:In regards to this KD dispute, one thing I hope we hold athletes to a higher standard is the ugly homphobia in locker rooms and around athletes. Like why do we have to insult someone by insinuating that they perform fellatio. How does that make them a lesser person? This trash talk has no place anywhere. This shouldn't be just ''locker room talk"

As a member of the LGBTQ community I certainly have felt ostracized in sports and locker rooms sometimes due to the blatant homphobia of other athletes used as an insult to make me feel like a lesser person. I wish this issue would be brought to light more.


KD didn't say anything homophobic.

No need to overreact.

This is the last I will address this before going too off topic, but using fellatio as a way to bring someone down, or saying something of the manner of "that's gay" , or trying to insinuate that any homosexual act is a negative is in fact homophobic. It hurts people still trying to accept themselves for who they are and creates an opportunity for self hate.

Take me for example, growing up hearing those things really hurt, and lead to me not being to accept myself for who I was for years. Especially since I was around athletes and locker rooms a lot in my experience. The negative connotations with those comments hurt LGBTQ+ youth and make it harder for them to be open about themselves because what they are and what they quite frankly like to do, is used as an insult to demean someone.


You are overreacting.
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Re: 2020-21 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#1468 » by Brofessor24 » Sun Apr 4, 2021 7:34 pm

LA Bird wrote:
Brofessor24 wrote:
MartinToVaught wrote:Hey, at least KD did all that talking on his main account instead of a burner account. Progress!


There is nothing wrong with using an anonymous account.

Everyone on here is using an anonymous account.

Don't be a hypocrite.

I don't usually comment on social media drama but what Durant did is more like a RealGM user making alts and posting in support of their main account while pretending to be different users. That behavior is frowned upon on every online forum and probably even bannable. If KD wasn't an all time great player, literally nobody would defend his use of burners (see Colangelo for example).


Nope.

Everyone on this forum is using an anonymous account (which isn't a bad thing by the way). If KD wants to use an anonymous account, that is perfectly fine as well. Anyone who criticizes him for that is a disgusting hypocrite.
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Re: 2020-21 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#1469 » by trex_8063 » Sun Apr 4, 2021 9:26 pm

Brofessor24 wrote:
goober wrote:
Brofessor24 wrote:
KD didn't say anything homophobic.

No need to overreact.

This is the last I will address this before going too off topic, but using fellatio as a way to bring someone down, or saying something of the manner of "that's gay" , or trying to insinuate that any homosexual act is a negative is in fact homophobic. It hurts people still trying to accept themselves for who they are and creates an opportunity for self hate.

Take me for example, growing up hearing those things really hurt, and lead to me not being to accept myself for who I was for years. Especially since I was around athletes and locker rooms a lot in my experience. The negative connotations with those comments hurt LGBTQ+ youth and make it harder for them to be open about themselves because what they are and what they quite frankly like to do, is used as an insult to demean someone.


You are overreacting.


That's not your call to make. Warned and suspended.

A decent human being [regardless of sexual orientation] can hopefully possess enough empathy to understand how/why such comments ARE harmful.
But if not: he has STATED DIRECTLY and in no uncertain terms that he resents these kinds of comments and feels they're harmful to the LGBTQ community [of which he is a member]. So even if you are unable muster the empathy to realize it in the first place, you can at least respect his perspective and refrain from using and/or condoning comments like this.

The latter includes not telling him [or anyone] he should keep quiet and silently endure slurs and insults aimed at his community.

While your record details a history of insensitivity wrt this issue, I'm making it known for anyone else reading that overt slurs, insults, or slights aimed at specific demographics [whether racial, religious, or pertaining to sexual orientation/identity] will be met with swifter and more severe penalty than the usual run-of-the-mill offenses.
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Re: 2020-21 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#1470 » by LA Bird » Sun Apr 4, 2021 11:53 pm

Brofessor24 wrote:
LA Bird wrote:
Brofessor24 wrote:
There is nothing wrong with using an anonymous account.

Everyone on here is using an anonymous account.

Don't be a hypocrite.

I don't usually comment on social media drama but what Durant did is more like a RealGM user making alts and posting in support of their main account while pretending to be different users. That behavior is frowned upon on every online forum and probably even bannable. If KD wasn't an all time great player, literally nobody would defend his use of burners (see Colangelo for example).


Nope.

Everyone on this forum is using an anonymous account (which isn't a bad thing by the way). If KD wants to use an anonymous account, that is perfectly fine as well. Anyone who criticizes him for that is a disgusting hypocrite.

There is nothing wrong with driving a car.

Everyone on here drives a car.

If someone wants to drive a car (and run over puppies), that is perfectly fine as well.
Anyone who criticizes him for that is a disgusting hypocrite.


People won't care if Durant had a private twitter for personal use with his family and friends. Every celebrity probably has one.
He is criticized for what he did with his burners - trashing his former teammates while hiding behind a fake username.
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Re: 2020-21 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#1471 » by parsnips33 » Mon Apr 5, 2021 6:02 pm

Ballerhogger wrote:3 + 40 point losses last night warriors lost more than 50 . Not good look at all. Luckily March madness was on last night


Was wondering if it was just the Warriors this year, but feels like there's been a ton of blowouts this year. What changes need to be made, if any, to make the night-to-night games more competitive/exciting?
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Re: 2020-21 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#1472 » by Ballerhogger » Mon Apr 5, 2021 6:32 pm

parsnips33 wrote:
Ballerhogger wrote:3 + 40 point losses last night warriors lost more than 50 . Not good look at all. Luckily March madness was on last night


Was wondering if it was just the Warriors this year, but feels like there's been a ton of blowouts this year. What changes need to be made, if any, to make the night-to-night games more competitive/exciting?

cutting the back to backs this season just shows how back to backs affect the overall product of the game
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Re: 2020-21 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#1473 » by KTM_2813 » Mon Apr 5, 2021 8:54 pm

MartinToVaught wrote:
Read on Twitter


Really speaks volumes that this is what the NBA puts out there on the same night as UCLA/Gonzaga (one of the best basketball games ever played on any level). Sadly, if Silver even bothers reacting to how bad this product has become, he'll probably just change the rules to punish rebuilding teams even more and keep ignoring the actual problems - anti-competitive "superstars," toxic media coverage, out-of-control flopping, overreliance on the three-point shot, etc. And when he's not busy screwing over small-market teams who have increasingly limited options to get better, he's coming up with dumb gimmicks that nobody asked for like the play-in games. :noway:

I never thought I'd see the day where college basketball was more fun than the NBA, but here we are. It's the exact opposite of football, where the fall of the Patriots dynasty combined with the CFP era's stagnation has made the NFL more entertaining than college football for me for the first time ever.


This is the least basketball that I've watched in a decade. Part of that is because I simply have less free time overall, part of that is because I've become a grumpy old fogey, but part of that is because I think there are genuine issues with the product. Chances are that if you tune into an NBA game, you will see both teams playing in an absurd color combination that bears no resemblance to their actual logo, on a court that looks like it was designed by teenagers, with announcers who don't talk actually talk about basketball, and a game that will ultimately be decided by 20 points because of three-point shooting spam. :lol:
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Re: 2020-21 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#1474 » by RCM88x » Tue Apr 6, 2021 12:26 am

KTM_2813 wrote:
MartinToVaught wrote:
Read on Twitter


Really speaks volumes that this is what the NBA puts out there on the same night as UCLA/Gonzaga (one of the best basketball games ever played on any level). Sadly, if Silver even bothers reacting to how bad this product has become, he'll probably just change the rules to punish rebuilding teams even more and keep ignoring the actual problems - anti-competitive "superstars," toxic media coverage, out-of-control flopping, overreliance on the three-point shot, etc. And when he's not busy screwing over small-market teams who have increasingly limited options to get better, he's coming up with dumb gimmicks that nobody asked for like the play-in games. :noway:

I never thought I'd see the day where college basketball was more fun than the NBA, but here we are. It's the exact opposite of football, where the fall of the Patriots dynasty combined with the CFP era's stagnation has made the NFL more entertaining than college football for me for the first time ever.


This is the least basketball that I've watched in a decade. Part of that is because I simply have less free time overall, part of that is because I've become a grumpy old fogey, but part of that is because I think there are genuine issues with the product. Chances are that if you tune into an NBA game, you will see both teams playing in an absurd color combination that bears no resemblance to their actual logo, on a court that looks like it was designed by teenagers, with announcers who don't talk actually talk about basketball, and a game that will ultimately be decided by 20 points because of three-point shooting spam. :lol:


The jersey thing is something that really bothers me. Half the time teams wear the classic colors of their opponents, it's very disorienting, especially when watching highlights and such.

Doesn't help either that star players, especially the last few years, have moved around so much, really hard to get emotionally interested in teams. Can't imagine what it's like for causal fans to be subjected to this. Doesn't help that media seems to be increasingly focused on everything outside of the games themselves.

Granted, this season has just been a bit lame, with so many top players missing a large number of games. Also seems like the power disparity between teams is in a bad spot right now
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Re: 2020-21 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#1475 » by kayess » Tue Apr 6, 2021 7:37 am

Texas Chuck wrote:
Joey Wheeler wrote:I've never been very high on Chris Paul, but the evidence is too overwhelming at this point, every team he joins gets exponentially better immediately or greatly surpasses expectations.


Same. But he's basically become Jason Kidd 2.0 for me. I have some specific criticisms about his game, but the bottom line is when those guys come to your team you quickly do a lot more winning than you did before and when they leave, you do a lot less.

Chris Paul has mastered how to win NBA games and when it comes down to it nothing else much matters really.


Can you elaborate? Kidd's lack of a jumper till late in the season is just a much, much bigger flaw than really anything you can point to in Paul's game. Guy's on LeBron's impact level per-minute, and has really only been diminished by injuries. Don't think ye olde "too ball-dominant" criticism is gonna cut it too, so interesting to hear what you think.
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Re: 2020-21 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#1476 » by Texas Chuck » Tue Apr 6, 2021 1:55 pm

kayess wrote:
Texas Chuck wrote:
Joey Wheeler wrote:I've never been very high on Chris Paul, but the evidence is too overwhelming at this point, every team he joins gets exponentially better immediately or greatly surpasses expectations.


Same. But he's basically become Jason Kidd 2.0 for me. I have some specific criticisms about his game, but the bottom line is when those guys come to your team you quickly do a lot more winning than you did before and when they leave, you do a lot less.

Chris Paul has mastered how to win NBA games and when it comes down to it nothing else much matters really.


Can you elaborate? Kidd's lack of a jumper till late in the season is just a much, much bigger flaw than really anything you can point to in Paul's game. Guy's on LeBron's impact level per-minute, and has really only been diminished by injuries. Don't think ye olde "too ball-dominant" criticism is gonna cut it too, so interesting to hear what you think.


I'm confused what you are asking me. I wasn't saying Paul and Kidd played basketball the exact same way--they clearly didn't. But both guys get a lot of criticism for what they aren't -- Paul limited playoff success, and Kidd not being a great scorer. Yet their teams just kept winning and winning.

At some point that tells me the problem is far less with these players and far more with the arbitrary nature of how we want players to do it.

And I'm fine if you think Paul is better than Kidd -I think that's near universal here--but I am a huge believer in Jason Kidd and the evidence all supports me. He goes to a new team and they go from terrible to very good immediately. He leaves a team and they go from very good to very bad immediately. And remember Kidd never leaves via FA until his very last season and he is always traded for a win now package. Michael Finley+Sam Cassell+AC Green. Marbury, Devin Harris.
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Re: 2020-21 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#1477 » by Colbinii » Tue Apr 6, 2021 4:45 pm

Joey Wheeler wrote:
Doctor MJ wrote:
Ballerhogger wrote:If perfer suns in the first


It's a funny thing.

The Suns should look at this season as a great success, but the playoffs may change that. I won't be surprised if the Suns get "upset" in the first round - quotes because we may not even see it as an upset. But even if the Suns end up losing to a healthy-again Laker team, it's going to hurt losing in the 1st round after being a 2 seed.


This'd be extremely unfortunate. The Suns are an excellent team, I think they might be the 2nd best team in the West/my bet to reach WCF if they're on the opposite side of the bracket to the Lakers.

I've never been very high on Chris Paul, but the evidence is too overwhelming at this point, every team he joins gets exponentially better immediately or greatly surpasses expectations.


The evidence was overwhelmingly high in support of CP3 in 2015. Some people have biases that take an extra 5-6 years to overcome.
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Re: 2020-21 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#1478 » by Clyde Frazier » Wed Apr 7, 2021 4:15 am

Read on Twitter


:lol: :clap:

Read on Twitter


Gordon's such a perfect fit on denver. What a move.
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Re: 2020-21 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#1479 » by kayess » Wed Apr 7, 2021 6:43 am

Texas Chuck wrote:
kayess wrote:
Texas Chuck wrote:
Same. But he's basically become Jason Kidd 2.0 for me. I have some specific criticisms about his game, but the bottom line is when those guys come to your team you quickly do a lot more winning than you did before and when they leave, you do a lot less.

Chris Paul has mastered how to win NBA games and when it comes down to it nothing else much matters really.


Can you elaborate? Kidd's lack of a jumper till late in the season is just a much, much bigger flaw than really anything you can point to in Paul's game. Guy's on LeBron's impact level per-minute, and has really only been diminished by injuries. Don't think ye olde "too ball-dominant" criticism is gonna cut it too, so interesting to hear what you think.


I'm confused what you are asking me. I wasn't saying Paul and Kidd played basketball the exact same way--they clearly didn't. But both guys get a lot of criticism for what they aren't -- Paul limited playoff success, and Kidd not being a great scorer. Yet their teams just kept winning and winning.

At some point that tells me the problem is far less with these players and far more with the arbitrary nature of how we want players to do it.

And I'm fine if you think Paul is better than Kidd -I think that's near universal here--but I am a huge believer in Jason Kidd and the evidence all supports me. He goes to a new team and they go from terrible to very good immediately. He leaves a team and they go from very good to very bad immediately. And remember Kidd never leaves via FA until his very last season and he is always traded for a win now package. Michael Finley+Sam Cassell+AC Green. Marbury, Devin Harris.


When you said "Jason Kidd 2.0" and "I have some specific criticism about his game", I thought you meant they were clearly winning players but just had too extreme flaws to be like THE guy (which is the category Jason Kidd is in because of his lack of shooting). I get now that your point was more how well they impacted winning

I don't think your conclusion is quite right though. It seems like when you say "arbitrary nature of how we want players to do it", you're referring to the most in-demand skills of the modern era, e.g. shooting (and also because it's what Kidd lacked). I also know you're not necessarily implying that Kidd's flaws weren't real, but what it tells me is that there are multiple ways to have high level impact, and clearly, great playmaking and defense, and good enough scoring to enable that playmaking is one way. But if Kidd were just a few notches below as a scoring threat, teams would just back off on him and "play the pass" and he'd be, idk, Ricky Rubio (which is to say, great role player and still has a huge impact on winning, but not what we saw from Kidd in his career). OTOH, if you were a great shooter and "only" had to be hidden on defense, it's fundamentally "easier" to have a higher impact there with only 1 elite skill, as opposed to being a great team/man defender where you'd have to make it up elsewhere because shooting is so important nowadays.

I mean Kidd's the case in point right? He maintained his super high impact on winning games because he added the ability to shoot, thus making all his other strengths on offense relevant, and ofc his great defense remained.
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Re: 2020-21 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#1480 » by Texas Chuck » Wed Apr 7, 2021 6:33 pm

kayess wrote:
When you said "Jason Kidd 2.0" and "I have some specific criticism about his game", I thought you meant they were clearly winning players but just had too extreme flaws to be like THE guy (which is the category Jason Kidd is in because of his lack of shooting). I get now that your point was more how well they impacted winning

I don't think your conclusion is quite right though. It seems like when you say "arbitrary nature of how we want players to do it", you're referring to the most in-demand skills of the modern era, e.g. shooting (and also because it's what Kidd lacked). I also know you're not necessarily implying that Kidd's flaws weren't real, but what it tells me is that there are multiple ways to have high level impact, and clearly, great playmaking and defense, and good enough scoring to enable that playmaking is one way. But if Kidd were just a few notches below as a scoring threat, teams would just back off on him and "play the pass" and he'd be, idk, Ricky Rubio (which is to say, great role player and still has a huge impact on winning, but not what we saw from Kidd in his career). OTOH, if you were a great shooter and "only" had to be hidden on defense, it's fundamentally "easier" to have a higher impact there with only 1 elite skill, as opposed to being a great team/man defender where you'd have to make it up elsewhere because shooting is so important nowadays.

I mean Kidd's the case in point right? He maintained his super high impact on winning games because he added the ability to shoot, thus making all his other strengths on offense relevant, and ofc his great defense remained.


I'm not saying Kidd's skillset and way of playing is ideal. But what I am saying is when we focus on what he could and did not do we miss a really high impact player.

And much gets made of his shooting but when he retired I think only one player had made more 3's, 2 at the most. Part of that of course is his longevity but part of it is by the end of his career he was a very competent3-pt shooter and his issue was his absolute refusal to take layups.

But he was probably the best of all-time at advancing the ball early via the pass, among the best of all-time in transition with the dribble, probably the best of all-time with the extra pass, his vision takes a backseat to absolutely nobody. Like Chris Paul, he knew every rule and every trick and took every edge.

Defensively he stopped being able to guard quick PG's late in his career but okay, he made up for that by being one of the best wing defenders in the world. Strongest hands pre-Kawhi the league had seen on a perimeter player, strong base, etc...

But what happens is people look at how Nash played or how modern PG's are all score-first guys and so they start to slot Kidd and question his impact and say PG defense doesn't matter--even though he actually defended wings. They question his shooting, yet in Dallas he was one of the best shooting guards in the league. They ignore all the little things he did night in and night out because you can't readily capture them in a box score and of course Westbrook has caused a total devaluation of PG rebounding even though it shouldn't.

He's just terribly unappreciated for a guy who did nothing but make his teams better game in and game out, year in and year out for 2 decades.
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