2020-21 NBA Season Discussion

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Re: 2020-21 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#1501 » by RCM88x » Thu Apr 8, 2021 2:02 am

Man, if the Nets lose more than 1 playoff game this year I'm going to call them a disappointment. Just hilariously stacked.
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Re: 2020-21 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#1502 » by eminence » Thu Apr 8, 2021 2:02 am

Doctor MJ wrote:.


Any chance I could get top 5-10 offense/defense on-courts for 1000+ minutes?
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Re: 2020-21 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#1503 » by eminence » Thu Apr 8, 2021 5:22 am

Pretty good game all around in Phoenix. Stuff for Utah to work on:

-Came out slow
-Went a bit too much Don hero-ball at the end for my taste
-Probably need to adjust the PnR D a tad against CP3, I know it's all about giving up the midrange, but ouch
-Could've gone for a few more Joe minutes if he was feeling up to it

-Shooting obviously
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Re: 2020-21 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#1504 » by bondom34 » Thu Apr 8, 2021 6:55 am

Super fun game. And know I've said I'm not so excited about the playoffs for some reasons, but am really curious to see the Suns there. They're so deep and young and both seem anti-playoff success in some ways but they're so good.

Edit: Jazz too, but we've at least seen their guys there before.

Also per CTG since 1/15 (the date Harden was traded I believe), Utah and Phoenix are 1 and 2 in point differential vs teams in the top 10 of point differential.
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Re: 2020-21 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#1505 » by GSP » Thu Apr 8, 2021 7:12 am

eminence wrote:Pretty good game all around in Phoenix. Stuff for Utah to work on:

-Came out slow
-Went a bit too much Don hero-ball at the end for my taste
-Probably need to adjust the PnR D a tad against CP3, I know it's all about giving up the midrange, but ouch
-Could've gone for a few more Joe minutes if he was feeling up to it

-Shooting obviously


Isnt Mitchell isos and pick and roll yall default plays at the end of games? Seems that way from the games ive watched and also against Denver last year
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Re: 2020-21 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#1506 » by HeartBreakKid » Thu Apr 8, 2021 7:24 am

bondom34 wrote:Super fun game. And know I've said I'm not so excited about the playoffs for some reasons, but am really curious to see the Suns there. They're so deep and young and both seem anti-playoff success in some ways but they're so good.

Edit: Jazz too, but we've at least seen their guys there before.

Also per CTG since 1/15 (the date Harden was traded I believe), Utah and Phoenix are 1 and 2 in point differential vs teams in the top 10 of point differential.

You're not? Most of the match ups this year are very up in the air.

I've already stopped watching the regular season though i'll probably tune in again toward the end
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Re: 2020-21 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#1507 » by yoyoboy » Thu Apr 8, 2021 7:25 am

I just don’t see how any team manages to outscore Brooklyn in a series.
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Re: 2020-21 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#1508 » by bondom34 » Thu Apr 8, 2021 7:32 am

HeartBreakKid wrote:
bondom34 wrote:Super fun game. And know I've said I'm not so excited about the playoffs for some reasons, but am really curious to see the Suns there. They're so deep and young and both seem anti-playoff success in some ways but they're so good.

Edit: Jazz too, but we've at least seen their guys there before.

Also per CTG since 1/15 (the date Harden was traded I believe), Utah and Phoenix are 1 and 2 in point differential vs teams in the top 10 of point differential.

You're not? Most of the match ups this year are very up in the air.

I've already stopped watching the regular season though i'll probably tune in again toward the end

I've become numb to Brooklyn running through it lol. And the inevitable hot takes and discourse it begins.

TBH the more I think about it there's plenty I'll look forward to as well, though I've generally always enjoyed the regular season a little more I think. Just something about all the teams playing, seeing young guys develop, and having a bunch of games on every night I like.
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Re: 2020-21 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#1509 » by eminence » Thu Apr 8, 2021 1:22 pm

GSP wrote:
eminence wrote:Pretty good game all around in Phoenix. Stuff for Utah to work on:

-Came out slow
-Went a bit too much Don hero-ball at the end for my taste
-Probably need to adjust the PnR D a tad against CP3, I know it's all about giving up the midrange, but ouch
-Could've gone for a few more Joe minutes if he was feeling up to it

-Shooting obviously


Isnt Mitchell isos and pick and roll yall default plays at the end of games? Seems that way from the games ive watched and also against Denver last year


Oh it certainly is, and he should be the primary ball-handler then, he was just calling his own number a bit too much last night for my taste.
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Re: 2020-21 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#1510 » by Doctor MJ » Thu Apr 8, 2021 3:43 pm

yoyoboy wrote:I just don’t see how any team manages to outscore Brooklyn in a series.


You're certainly not alone in this belief and you may be right, however:

You're not writing this based on what you've seen when the Big 3 is together, because that hasn't really happened, right?

You're not writing this based on the idea that the Nets have been the best team in the league with only part of the Big 3, right?

So then, aren't you projecting based on the assumption that the team is even better than you've already seen? In which case isn't your statement:

"I just don't see how any team manages to outscore the healthy Brooklyn team I've never seen."

Please forgive me if this seems snide, because I really won't be surprised if Brooklyn wins the title. I'm just noting that for all the talk of Brooklyn being an all-time great juggernaut, we are talking about a team with a 4.18 SRS and major concerns on the defensive end.
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Re: 2020-21 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#1511 » by Doctor MJ » Thu Apr 8, 2021 3:45 pm

Let me add while I'm at it:

Clearly all the old norms we had guiding us pertaining to what a ceiling for ORtg are out the window at this point, so it may be that this playoffs are defined by a new era where defense is fundamentally helpless against top tier offensive teams, but I won't be surprised if we see these ORtg numbers come back down to earth in the playoffs.
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Re: 2020-21 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#1512 » by Texas Chuck » Thu Apr 8, 2021 3:53 pm

Doctor MJ wrote:Please forgive me if this seems snide, because I really won't be surprised if Brooklyn wins the title. I'm just noting that for all the talk of Brooklyn being an all-time great juggernaut, we are talking about a team with a 4.18 SRS and major concerns on the defensive end.


And I'd add to this that Harden plus shooters we already know equals great offense. KD plus Kyrie is similar enough to situations we've seen each of these guys in to trust it leads to great offense.

Not sure this just continues to be super additive. I mean in an ideal world, Harden dominates the ball, KD is the primary screener and both KD and Kyrie are spacers--with the bonus of when Harden can't find anything and sheds the ball with 3 seconds on the shot clock to protect his numbers---as he is prone to do--these guys can actually still create a good shot.

Then when Harden is out, you can run iso stuff with either guy.

But this is all upside. None of the very real downside of playoff games where one of the non-Harden guys goes 3-11 and is criticized in a loss and is internally thinking what do you expect James always has the ball and its not like Kyrie and KD are known for being great team-first guys never worried about their own numbers or legacy.

The talent is undeniable. They should be a favorite. But they are most definitely not a favorite against the field or shouldn't be. I won't at all be stunned if they aren't the 2021 NBA champs. And to be honest I'm not sure we should count on ever getting to see a sustained period with all three guys together. The whole idea of Harden was he was an ironman to protect you against the inevitable with the other 2 and that's exactly what happened. He held the whole thing together.

And we still haven't discussed the very real issue of them having no defensive answers against anyone really, but definitely not against Embiid or Giannis or Jokic or Lebron/AD. We've seen these great offensive powerhouses historically not be able to outscore 4 teams 4 out of 7 times. Steve Nash never managed it with Dirk or with Amare. The Kings never managed it. The Mavs got their one title when they chose defense and Dirk making the offense work. All their powerhouse offensive teams fell short.

I strongly disagree they are a lock.
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Re: 2020-21 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#1513 » by bondom34 » Thu Apr 8, 2021 4:00 pm

They haven't really hit any road blocks at all so far, which is pretty odd. And of all the contenders they're the team I really didn't care to win (sorry Nets fans) which is why I'm just kind of assuming this continues.

Even defensively they're good against better teams. Nobody is a lock per se but they look better than anyone so far. Guess they have a tougher schedule coming up so that will filter out some of the questions maybe.
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Re: 2020-21 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#1514 » by Doctor MJ » Thu Apr 8, 2021 4:09 pm

Texas Chuck wrote:
Doctor MJ wrote:Please forgive me if this seems snide, because I really won't be surprised if Brooklyn wins the title. I'm just noting that for all the talk of Brooklyn being an all-time great juggernaut, we are talking about a team with a 4.18 SRS and major concerns on the defensive end.


And I'd add to this that Harden plus shooters we already know equals great offense. KD plus Kyrie is similar enough to situations we've seen each of these guys in to trust it leads to great offense.

Not sure this just continues to be super additive. I mean in an ideal world, Harden dominates the ball, KD is the primary screener and both KD and Kyrie are spacers--with the bonus of when Harden can't find anything and sheds the ball with 3 seconds on the shot clock to protect his numbers---as he is prone to do--these guys can actually still create a good shot.

Then when Harden is out, you can run iso stuff with either guy.

But this is all upside. None of the very real downside of playoff games where one of the non-Harden guys goes 3-11 and is criticized in a loss and is internally thinking what do you expect James always has the ball and its not like Kyrie and KD are known for being great team-first guys never worried about their own numbers or legacy.

The talent is undeniable. They should be a favorite. But they are most definitely not a favorite against the field or shouldn't be. I won't at all be stunned if they aren't the 2021 NBA champs. And to be honest I'm not sure we should count on ever getting to see a sustained period with all three guys together. The whole idea of Harden was he was an ironman to protect you against the inevitable with the other 2 and that's exactly what happened. He held the whole thing together.

And we still haven't discussed the very real issue of them having no defensive answers against anyone really, but definitely not against Embiid or Giannis or Jokic or Lebron/AD. We've seen these great offensive powerhouses historically not be able to outscore 4 teams 4 out of 7 times. Steve Nash never managed it with Dirk or with Amare. The Kings never managed it. The Mavs got their one title when they chose defense and Dirk making the offense work. All their powerhouse offensive teams fell short.

I strongly disagree they are a lock.


Yup, the question has always been how well Durant/Kyrie/Harden synergizes and while I've tried to make clear I'm not saying definitively that they won't synergize, when you're already talking about such extreme ORtgs with an incomplete Big 3, to me it seems like there's a really good chance that when you put it all together it's an amazing ORtg, but not an order of magnitude better than what we've already seen.

And what we've already seen has not produced anything like an all-time great SRS.

You mention them not having defensive answers against great teams, and of course that's the literal weakness, but there's also the question of whether the Nets can expect to buzz through elite defense in a Best of 7 series. I'm sure their offense will be excellent by all normal standards, but given the Nets defense, the Nets offense needs to be absolutely bulletproof and to me that makes me concerned about the structure of the Nets offense. Kinda feels like they're just relying on having such amazing offensive talent that they can figure out any situation instantly, and I'm not sure that's realistic.

Re: Other offensive powerhouses not managing it. While I think that they could have - as in there's no fundamental thing stopping it - I'd note the relative dominance of the respective offenses. By rORtg, these Brooklyn Nets are not as dominant as the Kings/Mavs/Suns teams you mention were at their best.

One more indication that for the Nets to win the title, we should be expecting that their offense goes to a completely new level in the playoffs, and yet it feels like people are watching the Nets right now and thinking "No one can beat them" as the Nets continue to play like something other than the best team in this regular season.
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Re: 2020-21 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#1515 » by Texas Chuck » Thu Apr 8, 2021 4:10 pm

bondom34 wrote:I'm going to be brutally honest. Part of why I'm convinced of them winning is because they're the team I'm wanting to win least (sorry Nets fans), and they're running through good competition pretty easily so far. They haven't really hit any road blocks at all so far, which is pretty odd.


One thing I forgot to mention, but absolutely should have it what happens when their rookie coach has to make an adjustment when a team comes in with a plan that is effective? One of the reasons that gets overlooked in 2011 with the heavy focus on Lebron choking is that Carlisle, Casey, and Stotts just outmatched young Spo. Miami couldn't solve that zone, couldn't figure out how to get Lebron isolated on a weaker defender, never thought hey at the end of these game maybe Lebron should guard Dirk instead of guys with little to no chance and watching Dirk decide the game over and over again in the 4th. Especially once Rick and Stotts figured out to get Terry freed up from Lebron after that initially was very effective for the Heat.

Coaching in the regular season is largely overrated. Coaching in the playoffs is absolutely crucial. Nash is a smart guy but he's gonna be the worst coach in maybe every round and if they get Miami or if Toronto gets into and comes out of the play-in that difference is going to stark. Raptors don't have enough to beat them, but Nurse could certainly expose some things that the better teams exploit.


And the fact that Claxton isn't going to play because of their big-name, big-ego bigs is going to potentially be an issue for them.
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Re: 2020-21 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#1516 » by bondom34 » Thu Apr 8, 2021 4:13 pm

Texas Chuck wrote:
bondom34 wrote:I'm going to be brutally honest. Part of why I'm convinced of them winning is because they're the team I'm wanting to win least (sorry Nets fans), and they're running through good competition pretty easily so far. They haven't really hit any road blocks at all so far, which is pretty odd.


One thing I forgot to mention, but absolutely should have it what happens when their rookie coach has to make an adjustment when a team comes in with a plan that is effective? One of the reasons that gets overlooked in 2011 with the heavy focus on Lebron choking is that Carlisle, Casey, and Stotts just outmatched young Spo. Miami couldn't solve that zone, couldn't figure out how to get Lebron isolated on a weaker defender, never thought hey at the end of these game maybe Lebron should guard Dirk instead of guys with little to no chance and watching Dirk decide the game over and over again in the 4th. Especially once Rick and Stotts figured out to get Terry freed up from Lebron after that initially was very effective for the Heat.

Coaching in the regular season is largely overrated. Coaching in the playoffs is absolutely crucial. Nash is a smart guy but he's gonna be the worst coach in maybe every round and if they get Miami or if Toronto gets into and comes out of the play-in that difference is going to stark. Raptors don't have enough to beat them, but Nurse could certainly expose some things that the better teams exploit.


And the fact that Claxton isn't going to play because of their big-name, big-ego bigs is going to potentially be an issue for them.

Edited my post slightly but the Nash thing is sort of a question I had. Its not enough for me to get past the talent and that I'm just inherently pessimistic (plus honestly if we're looking at Bud's playoff track record it's not inspiring either). The seeding in the east might be interesting at least, difference between the 1-4 2nd round vs 2/3 and playing one of the Bucks/76ers/Nets.

Edit: Homer38 makes a good note too on MDA.
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Re: 2020-21 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#1517 » by Homer38 » Thu Apr 8, 2021 4:13 pm

Texas Chuck wrote:
bondom34 wrote:I'm going to be brutally honest. Part of why I'm convinced of them winning is because they're the team I'm wanting to win least (sorry Nets fans), and they're running through good competition pretty easily so far. They haven't really hit any road blocks at all so far, which is pretty odd.


One thing I forgot to mention, but absolutely should have it what happens when their rookie coach has to make an adjustment when a team comes in with a plan that is effective? One of the reasons that gets overlooked in 2011 with the heavy focus on Lebron choking is that Carlisle, Casey, and Stotts just outmatched young Spo. Miami couldn't solve that zone, couldn't figure out how to get Lebron isolated on a weaker defender, never thought hey at the end of these game maybe Lebron should guard Dirk instead of guys with little to no chance and watching Dirk decide the game over and over again in the 4th. Especially once Rick and Stotts figured out to get Terry freed up from Lebron after that initially was very effective for the Heat.

Coaching in the regular season is largely overrated. Coaching in the playoffs is absolutely crucial. Nash is a smart guy but he's gonna be the worst coach in maybe every round and if they get Miami or if Toronto gets into and comes out of the play-in that difference is going to stark. Raptors don't have enough to beat them, but Nurse could certainly expose some things that the better teams exploit.


And the fact that Claxton isn't going to play because of their big-name, big-ego bigs is going to potentially be an issue for them.



Good point, but for the adjustments, I think it will depend on Mike D'Antoni, his assistant coach .... Nash is just there to manage the egos.
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Re: 2020-21 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#1518 » by Doctor MJ » Thu Apr 8, 2021 4:16 pm

bondom34 wrote:I'm going to be brutally honest. Part of why I'm convinced of them winning is because they're the team I'm wanting to win least (sorry Nets fans), and they're running through good competition pretty easily so far. They haven't really hit any road blocks at all so far, which is pretty odd.


lol, well I understand that feeling of bracing for the worst, and I'll also say that I'll be cheering against the Nets at every step along the way despite the fact that my guy Nash is the coach and the fact that prior to this year, I was someone cheering for Harden his whole career.

What do you mean by "running through good competition"?

The play in the East.
They beat Milwaukee by a bucket in the only game they played against Milwaukee.
They lost to Philly in their most recent game against them.
Everybody else in the East is effectively G-league.

So just from a "Can they get to the Finals?" perspective, it doesn't seem like we've seen them actually "run through good competition" at all. What we've seen them do is enough that everyone should take them seriously as a threat, but that's it.
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Re: 2020-21 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#1519 » by Texas Chuck » Thu Apr 8, 2021 4:19 pm

Homer38 wrote:Good point, but for the adjustments, I think it will depend on Mike D'Antoni, his assistant coach .... Nash is just there to manage the egos.


And I would have MDA among the worst coaches in the field for in-game adjustments. This was basically one of the main criticisms of him. He believed so strongly in his system, he never changed it, and he wouldn't take timeouts to regroup either because again he felt so sure of his plan.

He helps a bit, but his value came from bringing his offensive system and installing it, not managing in-game or in-series adjustments an area of real struggle for him historically.
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Re: 2020-21 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#1520 » by bondom34 » Thu Apr 8, 2021 4:22 pm

Doctor MJ wrote:
bondom34 wrote:I'm going to be brutally honest. Part of why I'm convinced of them winning is because they're the team I'm wanting to win least (sorry Nets fans), and they're running through good competition pretty easily so far. They haven't really hit any road blocks at all so far, which is pretty odd.


lol, well I understand that feeling of bracing for the worst, and I'll also say that I'll be cheering against the Nets at every step along the way despite the fact that my guy Nash is the coach and the fact that prior to this year, I was someone cheering for Harden his whole career.

What do you mean by "running through good competition"?

The play in the East.
They beat Milwaukee by a bucket in the only game they played against Milwaukee.
They lost to Philly in their most recent game against them.
Everybody else in the East is effectively G-league.

So just from a "Can they get to the Finals?" perspective, it doesn't seem like we've seen them actually "run through good competition" at all. What we've seen them do is enough that everyone should take them seriously as a threat, but that's it.

Just using Cleaning the Glass, since the trade (1/15), they've got the 4th best point differential vs top 10 teams, behind Utah, Phoenix, and Denver. And if nobody but those 2 teams in the East really matter, there's a pretty distinct chance they only need to beat 1 of the 2 then get to the finals. The Lakers have had some health issues (though I favored them when healthy), the Clippers they did also beat.

The defense is a legitimate concern, but I'm having a tougher time really poking holes in their resume than pretty much anyone else other than maybe the Sixers in just regular season basketball games.
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