2020-21 NBA Season Discussion

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Re: 2020-21 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#1701 » by Doctor MJ » Wed Apr 28, 2021 5:13 pm

therealbig3 wrote:Tonight’s probably not the best night, but Steph is a lock for top 5 in POY unless he gets injured right?

Feel like he’s been the best player in the RS by far, even as good as Jokic has been. And with all the missed time from everyone, it’ll be hard for guys like LeBron, Davis, KD, and Harden to really be in the conversation too.


He's not a Top 5 POY lock for me no, and frankly I'd be reluctant to commit to putting anyone as a Top 5 lock just based on the RS. This is not to say I won't feel weird if I somehow drop my MVP choice to outside my POY Top 5, but the playoffs re-shape our thinking on everything.

I will say that while I think Curry at his best has been the best player in the RS - as well as the best to ever play basketball, period - he hasn't been playing like this all year, and he's also often not played in a context designed to max out his individual value (Wiseman, Oubre, and other viruses). While you have a stance where you try to normalize this and just say that stuff shouldn't be held against him - and career legacy-wise I certainly agree - at this moment I don't see Curry as a threat to Jokic, for example.

Just to put in terms of what I'm thinking right now, I've been liking the LEBRON Wins Added stat as a baseline.

https://www.bball-index.com/2020-21-lebron-data/

Current leaderboard:
1. Jokic
2. Gobert
3. Giannis
4. Steph
5. Tatum
6. Kawhi
7. Luka
8. Dame
9. LeBron
10. CP3

And for all the Embiid supporters, know that the (per minute) LEBRON stat has Embiid 3rd behind Jokic & Gobert.

Looking at that list, I'd probably have that Top 4 as my Top 4, and then the 5th spot is really tricky. If the 76ers end up as the first seed, it's going to be easy to justify moving him up at least to that 5th spot and even higher, but to be perfectly honest getting the 2nd seed in the East isn't so, so impressive to me. I mean, I don't think the Brooklyn Nets as they've been available during this regular season have any business being a #1 seed, and so I do see it as a bit of a failure for both the 76ers & Bucks (to say nothing about the Celtics and everyone else) if they can't top a team whose MVP over the entire season has probably been Joe Harris.

Forced to pick right now, I'd probably slide Kawhi into the 5th spot. The success of the Clippers this year is clearly about way more than Kawhi, but Kawhi's been great.
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Re: 2020-21 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#1702 » by CKRT » Wed Apr 28, 2021 7:55 pm

Doctor MJ wrote:I will say that while I think Curry at his best has been the best player in the RS - as well as the best to ever play basketball, period
[/quote]

to clarify, Steph is your GOAT?
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Re: 2020-21 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#1703 » by Doctor MJ » Wed Apr 28, 2021 8:17 pm

CKRT wrote:
Doctor MJ wrote:I will say that while I think Curry at his best has been the best player in the RS - as well as the best to ever play basketball, period


to clarify, Steph is your GOAT?[/quote]

He's never had a full season like that.
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Re: 2020-21 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#1704 » by bondom34 » Thu Apr 29, 2021 1:47 am

Everyone is dunking when they leave the Pistons.

Read on Twitter
?s=19
MyUniBroDavis wrote: he was like YALL PEOPLE WHO DOUBT ME WILL SEE YALLS STATS ARE WRONG I HAVE THE BIG BRAIN PLAYS MUCHO NASTY BIG BRAIN BIG CHUNGUS BRAIN YOU BOYS ON UR BBALL REFERENCE NO UNDERSTANDO
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Re: 2020-21 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#1705 » by NinjaSheppard » Thu Apr 29, 2021 3:36 pm

Jokic should win the MVP but if the NBA writers decide to give Chris Paul the Departed lifetime achievement award I won't mind
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Re: 2020-21 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#1706 » by parsnips33 » Thu Apr 29, 2021 4:02 pm

Don't really know where to put this, but a thought occurred to me last night after seeing the Hachimura dunk on AD:

Do you think the Deandre Jordan dunk on Brandon Knight could happen today? Not the dunk itself, but the reaction to it.

Feels like it happened at the perfect stage of social media where everyone could react to it in real time, but before everything got so saturated that no story lasts more than a couple hours. I just can't imagine any in-game dunk nowadays, no matter how great, having the same cultural purchase
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Re: 2020-21 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#1707 » by falcolombardi » Thu Apr 29, 2021 5:05 pm

parsnips33 wrote:Don't really know where to put this, but a thought occurred to me last night after seeing the Hachimura dunk on AD:

Do you think the Deandre Jordan dunk on Brandon Knight could happen today? Not the dunk itself, but the reaction to it.

Feels like it happened at the perfect stage of social media where everyone could react to it in real time, but before everything got so saturated that no story lasts more than a couple hours. I just can't imagine any in-game dunk nowadays, no matter how great, having the same cultural purchase


only in big profile games, like a finals game or at least a inportant playoff game or superhyped up reg season game (think christmas games between warriors and cavs a few years ago)

for example lebron almost dunk at the end of 2016 finals, if instead of a foul that was a poster on draymond it would have been a historical highlight
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Re: 2020-21 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#1708 » by MO12msu » Thu Apr 29, 2021 7:31 pm

Anthony Edwards on Watanabe had a pretty big social media reaction. Not to mention the tizzy caused by the terrible Nate Duncan tweet.
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Re: 2020-21 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#1709 » by eminence » Fri Apr 30, 2021 4:26 am

Award picks?

MVP: Gobert
DPOY: Gobert
COY: Thibs
MIP: Randle
ROY: Ball
6MOY: Thaddeus
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Re: 2020-21 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#1710 » by HeartBreakKid » Fri Apr 30, 2021 8:32 am

Im surprised we dont have the Player of the Year thread up yet.

I think with MVP I'd go with Jokic - I always lean more toward the "best player in the league" more than the guy with the best story. This is one of those times where the media doesn't want to give it to someone with no big time scorer on the two top teams (Utah, Phoenix) - and the East top teams their players are too injured except Kyrie, and no one is buying him as an MVP no matter how hyped his abilities are.

DPOY is Gobert pretty easily.

COY....no real sexy candidates, I feel like normally it'd go to Monty Williams - but his reputation as a bad coach might prevent that. I'd go with a boring pick like Popovich or Rick Carslile to be honest (I'm leaning Popovich, who might not even make the playoffs). I like Vogel and Snyder too.

MIP - Yeah, I guess Randle is good until I think more about it.


ROY - Haliburton. What's Ball's argument over him? Haliburton is a better defender, better AST:TO ratio, better offball, better scorer, and he played more games. He's also doing this while playing with another really good PG in Fox.

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Re: 2020-21 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#1711 » by falcolombardi » Fri Apr 30, 2021 6:23 pm

mvp-jokic, better combination of team succes and level of play, is a offensive player too as opposed to a defensive star which also helps with accolades like this

other candidates won too little, played too few games or dont have the narrative in their side.... that and jokic has been outright incredible too

DPOY- Gobert, easy choice this year, simmons is great but he is the second best defender on his own team, embiid is better and he missed too many games compared to.gobert

6MOTY- Randle

ROY-Lamelo ball

COY- vogel, impressive record and defense once you consider davis and lebron missed half the games
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Re: 2020-21 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#1712 » by Peregrine01 » Sun May 2, 2021 4:06 am

I really think Jokic is the best passer we’ve seen in the modern NBA.
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Re: 2020-21 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#1713 » by Jurassic_Park » Sun May 2, 2021 4:19 am

MVP: Jokic (anyone else picked here, and you need to re-evaluate your methods...)
DPOY: Gobert (pretty easily)
COY: Thibs
MIP: Randle
ROY: Ball
6MOY: Clarkson
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Re: 2020-21 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#1714 » by Doctor MJ » Sun May 2, 2021 6:00 am

Peregrine01 wrote:I really think Jokic is the best passer we’ve seen in the modern NBA.


I agree.

I also feel like Jokic's rep is starting to turn from "Euro" to "Boogeyman". Last year teams were trying to match up against Jokic, and now he owns real estate in the heads of opponents throughout the league.
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Re: 2020-21 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#1715 » by Doctor MJ » Sun May 2, 2021 6:02 am

My awards at the moment:

MVP - Jokic
DPOY - Gobert
ROY - LaMelo
MIP - Randle...or maybe Porter
6MOY - Ingles
COY - Monty
EOY - Marks
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Re: 2020-21 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#1716 » by Doctor MJ » Sun May 2, 2021 6:13 am

HeartBreakKid wrote:ROY - Haliburton. What's Ball's argument over him? Haliburton is a better defender, better AST:TO ratio, better offball, better scorer, and he played more games. He's also doing this while playing with another really good PG in Fox.


So, I'm really glad to see someone argue mostly on just believing Halliburton is better than LaMelo. I'm open to being convinced of that.

When you ask "What's Ball's argument over him?" and then list a stat (AST:TO), it's kind of weird that all I have to do is present basic stats:

Ball: 15.9/5.9/6.1
Halliburton: 13.0/3.0/5.3

Ball's clearly been producing more per game than Halliburton has by a good margin, and traditionally, that would largely end the conversation. You're free to disagree - and I'll add that production isn't impact let alone ROY-ness - but the argument for Ball isn't mysterious.

Beyond that, Ball's been absolutely spectacular and is considered by a large margin to be more likely to be a big star than Halliburton, and that's a thing I think about.
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Re: 2020-21 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#1717 » by HeartBreakKid » Sun May 2, 2021 9:11 am

Doctor MJ wrote:
HeartBreakKid wrote:ROY - Haliburton. What's Ball's argument over him? Haliburton is a better defender, better AST:TO ratio, better offball, better scorer, and he played more games. He's also doing this while playing with another really good PG in Fox.


So, I'm really glad to see someone argue mostly on just believing Halliburton is better than LaMelo. I'm open to being convinced of that.

When you ask "What's Ball's argument over him?" and then list a stat (AST:TO), it's kind of weird that all I have to do is present basic stats:

Ball: 15.9/5.9/6.1
Halliburton: 13.0/3.0/5.3

Ball's clearly been producing more per game than Halliburton has by a good margin, and traditionally, that would largely end the conversation. You're free to disagree - and I'll add that production isn't impact let alone ROY-ness - but the argument for Ball isn't mysterious.

Beyond that, Ball's been absolutely spectacular and is considered by a large margin to be more likely to be a big star than Halliburton, and that's a thing I think about.

Their counting stats are pretty close per 36, and you're not taking into account efficiency or defense. When you take into account Haliburton was healthy I don't see how LaMelo has added more.

It's seems like to me that LaMelo was simply higher profile, and people like most awards make up their mind about it really early in the season. LaMelo gets a lot of highlights because he is a pretty flashly player, but I also have found out that many people never bothered to see Tyrese play (not necessarily you, just a feeling I get about the general audience) and they would see he is also very unorthodox and unique.

Rookie of the year should be about who is the best rookie not who the best prospect is. This reminds me when I was telling everyone Jokic was ROY and not Towns but because Towns was going to be bigger he should be ROY (and that his counting stats were better). At this point we might as well just give ROY to the top 3 draft picks every year.


It's not that I don't think LaMelo is up there, it's just that I don't really see what makes him better than Haliburton. It almost feels like after the second month or so there is nothing Tyrese can do to change people's minds.
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Re: 2020-21 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#1718 » by Doctor MJ » Sun May 2, 2021 5:20 pm

HeartBreakKid wrote:
Doctor MJ wrote:
HeartBreakKid wrote:ROY - Haliburton. What's Ball's argument over him? Haliburton is a better defender, better AST:TO ratio, better offball, better scorer, and he played more games. He's also doing this while playing with another really good PG in Fox.


So, I'm really glad to see someone argue mostly on just believing Halliburton is better than LaMelo. I'm open to being convinced of that.

When you ask "What's Ball's argument over him?" and then list a stat (AST:TO), it's kind of weird that all I have to do is present basic stats:

Ball: 15.9/5.9/6.1
Halliburton: 13.0/3.0/5.3

Ball's clearly been producing more per game than Halliburton has by a good margin, and traditionally, that would largely end the conversation. You're free to disagree - and I'll add that production isn't impact let alone ROY-ness - but the argument for Ball isn't mysterious.

Beyond that, Ball's been absolutely spectacular and is considered by a large margin to be more likely to be a big star than Halliburton, and that's a thing I think about.

Their counting stats are pretty close per 36, and you're not taking into account efficiency or defense. When you take into account Haliburton was healthy I don't see how LaMelo has added more.

It's seems like to me that LaMelo was simply higher profile, and people like most awards make up their mind about it really early in the season. LaMelo gets a lot of highlights because he is a pretty flashly player, but I also have found out that many people never bothered to see Tyrese play (not necessarily you, just a feeling I get about the general audience) and they would see he is also very unorthodox and unique.

Rookie of the year should be about who is the best rookie not who the best prospect is. This reminds me when I was telling everyone Jokic was ROY and not Towns but because Towns was going to be bigger he should be ROY (and that his counting stats were better). At this point we might as well just give ROY to the top 3 draft picks every year.


It's not that I don't think LaMelo is up there, it's just that I don't really see what makes him better than Haliburton. It almost feels like after the second month or so there is nothing Tyrese can do to change people's minds.


Appreciate the thoughts.

First thing I want to emphasize is that we've got some philosophical disagreements about the ROY as an award that I just want to make sure our recognized and then explicitly tabled in the discussion about LaMelo vs Halliburton. The way I'm looking at ROY is not the "Most Valuable Rookie". You might say it's more like "Most Outstanding Rookie" for me, but specifically to me the reason we have an award for the best 1st year player and not the best Nth year player is that it's not really about now. It's about lighting the way to the future. I see it this way because I see that as how these awards come about. They are not about cataloguing the reality of the NBA in that year with objective detail, they are about generating interest of a particularly positive bent.

I'm not looking to convince you of this - though we can certainly talk further on it - but recognizing this, there's good reason to think our opinions will diverge on this particular vote, but you might teach me a thing or to about Halliburton along the way.

Second thing I want to say is: Man, good for you for naming Jokic ROY. I didn't recall that. Worse, I don't even remember who I voted for, and when I look back at the voting POY voting thread, I don't see my vote. My gut is telling me that I was tempted to pick Jokic but still voted KAT like most, so props again to you.

The thing about Jokic that year was that he played way less than "starter level" minutes. I've learned to be a bit caution before getting too excited about guys before they prove they can do it without constraints against the very best. And in the case of Jokic, well, this meant I was still vastly underrating him even as I marveled at him. :lol:

Alright now back to LaMelo & Halliburton.

Close by PER 36. The big production raters (PER, WS, BPM) all seem to give LaMelo the per minute edge. Not enough of an edge that I think Halliburton can't possibly be the better player, but just on that question of production per minute, the indicators are indicating LaMelo from what I see.

I will say that Halliburton looks a bit better by +/- stats, but it's not enough to seem that significant to me. I'd be fine with it being a nudge in Halliburton's direction, but Halliburton's numbers here aren't "Wow" either (like, sigh, Jokic's were).

All this to say that while I want to acknowledge the validity of most of what you're pointing out, I'm still leaning LaMelo so far.

So here's a thing I'll bring up:

I find both of these guys super-intriguing because I'm obsessed with guys that have great basketball minds, and both of these guys seem to qualify.

I'll come right out and say that I have a better understanding of what makes LaMelo stand out than Halliburton. So how would you try to describe what makes Halliburton singularly Halliburton? What should I be looking for when I watch him to really understand what he does out there?
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Re: 2020-21 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#1719 » by GSP » Sun May 2, 2021 7:53 pm

Mvp - Jokic
Dpoy - Rudy
Coy - Thibs
6moy - tossup Jingles and Thad
Mip - Randle
Roy - Lamelo but Hm to Hali
Eoy - Marks
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Re: 2020-21 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#1720 » by falcolombardi » Sun May 2, 2021 8:10 pm

is just a quarter but i am thinking that brook lopez is gonna sinl any chance bucks have against nets in the playoffs if bud plays him

even more so if harden plays, imo bucks should ride giannis/tucker at 5 against nets if they face

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