2020-21 NBA Season Discussion

[Doctor MJ]

I feel like Kobe was his team's PG as much as Lebron, not as good a player though. Jordan under Phil played more off ball than both but still a good playmaker and proved he could be as ball dominant if he wanted.

Ah but remember when Kobe would actually go into PG-mode? He thought by proving he could play scorer or play passer that meant he could do it all. Kobe basically made clear that he didn't understand that optimal play meant just making the right decision.

All that said, he was clearly smarter out there than KD .

This a hilariously reductive read of Bryant's game.

Bryant was one of the eight best offensive players ever. I'm guessing he had a far greater understanding of optimal play than you do.

1. I wasn't trying to convey the entirety of Kobe's game by this one statement. I was speaking to one facet.

2. Appeal to authority, eh? Well at least we can all agree that your opinion is uninformed.

If you're afraid to speak to inefficiencies in these players games because you hold them up to be basketball angels, you'll never get anywhere real. Every single one of these guys have weaknesses, and if you name any all-timer, I can speak to what those weaknesses were. Not because I'm an outlier among outliers, but simply because I do research and come to my own conclusions rather than assuming these guys all did everything optimally.

[Strepbacter]

Ah but remember when Kobe would actually go into PG-mode? He thought by proving he could play scorer or play passer that meant he could do it all. Kobe basically made clear that he didn't understand that optimal play meant just making the right decision.

All that said, he was clearly smarter out there than KD .

This a hilariously reductive read of Bryant's game.

Bryant was one of the eight best offensive players ever. I'm guessing he had a far greater understanding of optimal play than you do.

1. I wasn't trying to convey the entirety of Kobe's game by this one statement. I was speaking to one facet.

No, you just made a statement to that was comically reductive and hyperbolic with a dash of armchair psychology. How the hell do you know what Bryant was thinking?

Nobody said he was perfect, but there's a big difference between nuanced criticism and black and white hyperbole.

I like how you accuse others of appealing to authority and then turn around and build the flimsiest of straw-men. That's rich.

[Doctor MJ]

This a hilariously reductive read of Bryant's game.

Bryant was one of the eight best offensive players ever. I'm guessing he had a far greater understanding of optimal play than you do.

1. I wasn't trying to convey the entirety of Kobe's game by this one statement. I was speaking to one facet.

No, you just made a statement to that was comically reductive and hyperbolic with a dash of armchair psychology. How the hell do you know what Bryant was thinking?

Nobody said he was perfect, but there's a big difference between nuanced criticism and black and white hyperbole.

I like how you accuse others of appealing to authority and then turn around and build the flimsiest of straw-men. That's rich.

Not like the dude shied away from saying what was on his mind on stuff like this.

https://www.sbnation.com/nba/2013/1/30/3932760/kobe-bryant-lakers-winning-streak-video

Kobe felt like he had the ability to focus in on whatever and become the best at it. He believed that because he had a tremendous amount of talent to learn many types of things (but especially physical moves) quickly.

This doesn't change the fact that he often missed open passes for easy buckets when he wasn't in pass-mode, which was how he played the vast majority of the time.

The best passers are the guys who consistently see, throw, and make the passes we don't see coming.
The next group down are the guys who consistently see, throw, and make the passes we can see.

Kobe's in a group below them. Simple as that.

Re: "you accuse...appealing to authority...then build strawmen". Dude, I just gave my opinion, and you responded by mocking me for daring to be critical of a basketball player as if I were some inferior being.

But I also think it's important to understand that I wasn't "building a strawman". I wasn't making up some stupid belief and ascribing it to you to win an argument. I was just giving a quick description of a limitation I saw in Kobe, as one does when replying to someone else's point.

It's important not to confuse the brevity of a single post about a player for the entirety of the author's understanding of the player in question. Refraining from writing a tome every time we write is not "strawmanning", it's reading the room.

[SeniorWalker]

Reputation can stop us from coming to very straightforward conclusions.

I'm staring at the Lakers situation. If they were 100% healthy right now, I would think: "ok, they make the finals, probably after a relatively close battle with the Clippers. If they're there, they definitely lose to a healthy Nets team, the probably struggle a lot against the Bucks or Philly but they could win."

They're not healthy though and that's means they fall way short of that. Clearly, right?

I mean, if there aren't any major injuries to their opponents.... If LeBron is not sandbagging and doing space jam 2 stuff in the background, or traveling to Miami or wherever he goes for a break.... I keep inventing scenarios where the reality isn't what it is because of LeBron's reputation.

[falcolombardi]

i think everyone in this postseason is clearly flawed so i wouldnt be surprised with any contender winning

nets for all they have been hyped up are not the 2017 warriors, they dont have a draymond and their defense is not strong, their health is suspect and their offense has not stood out from the pack in 2021 aa warriors did in 2017..and no enoufg play time together

lakers have trash spacing, have not got time to develop chemistry, lebron health is worrysome and their rotations are suspect (drummond)

jazz lack a elite scorer, mitchell is relatively inneficient against other star guards despite great spacing. i have doubts against focused defenses with prep time

suns...look fine i think, i dont thinl they have big flaws, but may lack overwhelming tools compared to other teams

clippers seem too reliant on george and kawhi keeping their hand hot in jumpshoots, their defense has been underwhelming

sixers worry me if teams decide to stop embiid at all costs with double teams, they have scored relatively little out of embiid doible teams (less than 1 point i think) than other teams (jokic and giannis being double teamed leads to a lot of points for conparision). their half court offense seems too vulnerable

bucks still have some issues if they play against a team like nets anf bud insists on playing a vulnerable brook lopez against harden. theoricallt with hollyday now in bledsoe place stopping giannis drives wont be so easy but lets see

[Ballerhogger]

Read on Twitter

?s=21 We let Dwight go for what reason !!?? Dumbest move by the lakers .

[Strepbacter]

This doesn't change the fact that he often missed open passes for easy buckets when he wasn't in pass-mode, which was how he played the vast majority of the time.

No, this is just more hyperbole. Perimeter players with the type of offensive impact that Bryant had don't miss "open" passes often. You are simply vastly overstating things.

The best passers are the guys who consistently see, throw, and make the passes we don't see coming.

He threw these type of passes all the time.

The next group down are the guys who consistently see, throw, and make the passes we can see.

Again, he threw these type of passes all the time.

Again, you don't have the type of offensive impact that Bryant did without consistently punishing teams for sending help.

Kobe's in a group below them.

He's really not. You really need to step back and try to look at things with more nuance.

Re: "you accuse...appealing to authority...then build strawmen". Dude, I just gave my opinion, and you responded by mocking me for daring to be critical of a basketball player as if I were some inferior being.

Nah. Just pointing how comically over-the-top your critisms are.

It's important not to confuse the brevity of a single post about a player for the entirety of the author's understanding of the player in question.

You went for brevity and ended up with statement that was comically hyperbolic, reductive, and totally lacking in nuance. It it what it is.

[MartinToVaught]

Time for everyone to stop hating and put some respect on Russ' name:

Read on Twitter

[MartinToVaught]

We let Dwight go for what reason !!??

Because Klutch made the Lakers sign Trez instead.

[Ballerhogger]

Time for everyone to stop hating and put some respect on Russ' name:

Read on Twitter

That’s really impressive

[Peregrine01]

KD really needs to stop being thought of as a two-way player right now. This Nets defense is horrid and KD is a big reason why.

[falcolombardi]

everyone ready for lebron vs curry 1 game series ?

[Clyde Frazier]

Read on Twitter

Steph was playing 2K on rookie in this one lol

[therealbig3]

Hmm, re: Durant...he's been a part of some of the best PS offenses in history, both in OKC and GS...his GS run includes THE best PS offense in history (2017)...I guess you could make the argument that he was never the most important player for his team's offense though...he certainly wasn't as important as Curry in 2017, and Westbrook has a strong case of being more of the engine behind the team's offense in OKC.

However, what we did see at least in GS is a situation where he took a team that tended to struggle in the PS offensively, and turn them into a juggernaut that couldn't be stopped. And as ugly as the OKC offense looked sometimes...him and Westbrook together took a team without a whole lot of offensive talent and were churning out some really spectacular offensive performances against PS defenses (2012 and 2016 stand out especially).

KD is essentially the cheat code. He can't anchor that kind of offense by himself and be expected to make the kinds of reads that other elite offensive anchors are asked to do (LeBron, Curry, Harden, Paul, Jokic, even Kawhi, etc), but pair him up with a high level guard that can handle the bulk of the ball handling and play initiating and relegate him to finishing plays and having his fair share of ISOs, and watch out, he becomes incredible and he unlocks your team's offensive potential. When things break down, KD being able to create a high efficiency shot out of nothing becomes your least efficient play.

[therealbig3]

There's something to be said about Kobe's ability to anchor outstanding PS offenses while never really being optimized in terms of supporting cast the way a lot of today's stars are. I mean come on, did he ever really play with elite shooting? I'd say no. Did he not often play next to 2-big lineups that definitely hurt spacing? Of course.

He did play with a very skilled offensive big like Pau, and a very versatile point forward like Odom...but honestly, beyond that, he never played with other high level perimeter players, Pau was not a great offensive hub on his own, and the real value of Odom and Pau was moreso their defensive effectiveness, not their offense. I think Kobe gets super underrated when you look at just how effective he was during that 08-10 stretch, how effective the Lakers offense overall was, the level of defenses they played, how effective they were despite playing defensively-oriented lineups that didn't cater to maximizing Kobe's offensive efficiency, and the fact that Kobe was dealing with constant injuries to his fingers and knees during that stretch, which means he likely plays even better if he was fully healthy.

I think a legitimate debate can be had for Kobe against anyone offensively, short of the LeBron/MJ/Nash/Magic tier. Bird and Curry were nowhere near as resilient in the PS as Kobe, Shaq as a big man who couldn't hit FTs and had no range has his own offensive limitations that Kobe doesn't, Kareem while not as limited as Shaq still required high level guard play in order to make entry passes and set him up appropriately, Dirk was incredibly resilient but was never a high level ball handler and passer although his spacing ability made up for a lot of that. All in all, I probably wouldn't put him 5th all time, but I think he's got a good case, and that historically, he gets underrated quite a bit here, although he probably gets overrated by the mainstream media that thinks the big 3 in NBA history are MJ, LeBron, and Kobe.

[eminence]

I need to plug in Bird/Magic one of these days. Median (offensive) playoff series stats for some perimeter stars alongside team results.

LeBron ('06-'20) 49 series: 28.2 ppg @ +4.3 rTS%, 7.4 apg, 3.6 Tov/g, +7.1 rOff, -2.2 rDef, +9.3 rNet
Kobe ('99-'12) 38 series: 27.3 ppg @ +0.6 rTS%, 5.0 apg, 3.0 Tov/g, +6.7 rOff, -1.1 rDef, +7.8 rNet
Jordan ('85-'98) 37 series: 32.2 ppg @ +2.9 rTS%, 5.8 apg, 3.0 Tov/g, +7.0 rOff, -2.9 rDef, +9.9 rNet
Durant ('10-'19) 25 series: 28.8 ppg @ +5.2 rTS%, 4.0 apg, 3.5 Tov/g, +8.1 rOff, -2.3 rDef, +10.4 rNet
Miller ('90-'02) 22 series: 24.3 ppg @ +8.9 rTS%, 2.7 apg, 1.7 Tov/g, +7.4 rOff, +1.6 rDef, +5.8 rNet
Curry ('13-'19) 20 series: 25.5 ppg @ +6.9 rTS%, 6.2 apg, 3.5 Tov/g, +5.9 rOff, -4.4 rDef, +10.3 rNet
Nash ('01-'10) 20 series: 18.4 ppg @ +5.6 rTS%, 9.3 apg, 3.4 Tov/g, +10.0 rOff, +2.3 rDef, +7.7 rNet
CP3 ('08-'20) 19 series: 21.3 ppg @ +3.9 rTS%, 7.9 apg, 2.3 Tov/g, +4.6 rOff, -0.1 rDef, +4.7 rNet
Westbrook ('10-'19) 17 series: 25.6 ppg @ -3.2 rTS%, 7.5 apg, 4.2 Tov/g, +5.0 rOff, -1.8 rDef, +6.8 rNet
Harden ('13-'20) 15 series: 28.4 ppg @ +1.6 rTS%, 7.4 apg, 4.6 Tov/g, +3.6 rOff, -1.0 rDef, +4.6 rNet
Kawhi ('15-'20) 11 series: 27.8 ppg @ +5.4 rTS%, 4.0 apg, 2.5 Tov/g, +3.4 rOff, -5.8 rDef, +9.2 rNet
Lillard ('14-'20) 11 series: 24.3 ppg @ -1.4 rTS%, 6.0 apg, 3.2 Tov/g, +0.4 rOff, +2.6 rDef, -2.2 rNet

[Doctor MJ]

I need to plug in Bird/Magic one of these days. Median (offensive) playoff series stats for some perimeter stars alongside team results.

LeBron ('06-'20) 49 series: 28.2 ppg @ +4.3 rTS%, 7.4 apg, 3.6 Tov/g, +7.1 rOff, -2.2 rDef, +9.3 rNet
Kobe ('99-'12) 38 series: 27.3 ppg @ +0.6 rTS%, 5.0 apg, 3.0 Tov/g, +6.7 rOff, -1.1 rDef, +7.8 rNet
Jordan ('85-'98) 37 series: 32.2 ppg @ +2.9 rTS%, 5.8 apg, 3.0 Tov/g, +7.0 rOff, -2.9 rDef, +9.9 rNet
Durant ('10-'19) 25 series: 28.8 ppg @ +5.2 rTS%, 4.0 apg, 3.5 Tov/g, +8.1 rOff, -2.3 rDef, +10.4 rNet
Miller ('90-'02) 22 series: 24.3 ppg @ +8.9 rTS%, 2.7 apg, 1.7 Tov/g, +7.4 rOff, +1.6 rDef, +5.8 rNet
Curry ('13-'19) 20 series: 25.5 ppg @ +6.9 rTS%, 6.2 apg, 3.5 Tov/g, +5.9 rOff, -4.4 rDef, +10.3 rNet
Nash ('01-'10) 20 series: 18.4 ppg @ +5.6 rTS%, 9.3 apg, 3.4 Tov/g, +10.0 rOff, +2.3 rDef, +7.7 rNet
CP3 ('08-'20) 19 series: 21.3 ppg @ +3.9 rTS%, 7.9 apg, 2.3 Tov/g, +4.6 rOff, -0.1 rDef, +4.7 rNet
Westbrook ('10-'19) 17 series: 25.6 ppg @ -3.2 rTS%, 7.5 apg, 4.2 Tov/g, +5.0 rOff, -1.8 rDef, +6.8 rNet
Harden ('13-'20) 15 series: 28.4 ppg @ +1.6 rTS%, 7.4 apg, 4.6 Tov/g, +3.6 rOff, -1.0 rDef, +4.6 rNet
Kawhi ('15-'20) 11 series: 27.8 ppg @ +5.4 rTS%, 4.0 apg, 2.5 Tov/g, +3.4 rOff, -5.8 rDef, +9.2 rNet
Lillard ('14-'20) 11 series: 24.3 ppg @ -1.4 rTS%, 6.0 apg, 3.2 Tov/g, +0.4 rOff, +2.6 rDef, -2.2 rNet

Cool to see this laid out like that.

Clearly Lillard sticks out like a sore thumb here. I still don't think it's right to look at Dame as someone who wets the bed in the playoffs, but he's certainly had his struggles.

[Doctor MJ]

This doesn't change the fact that he often missed open passes for easy buckets when he wasn't in pass-mode, which was how he played the vast majority of the time.

No, this is just more hyperbole. Perimeter players with the type of offensive impact that Bryant had don't miss "open" passes often. You are simply vastly overstating things.

The best passers are the guys who consistently see, throw, and make the passes we don't see coming.

He threw these type of passes all the time.

The next group down are the guys who consistently see, throw, and make the passes we can see.

Again, he threw these type of passes all the time.

Again, you don't have the type of offensive impact that Bryant did without consistently punishing teams for sending help.

Kobe's in a group below them.

He's really not. You really need to step back and try to look at things with more nuance.

Re: "you accuse...appealing to authority...then build strawmen". Dude, I just gave my opinion, and you responded by mocking me for daring to be critical of a basketball player as if I were some inferior being.

Nah. Just pointing how comically over-the-top your critisms are.

It's important not to confuse the brevity of a single post about a player for the entirety of the author's understanding of the player in question.

You went for brevity and ended up with statement that was comically hyperbolic, reductive, and totally lacking in nuance. It it what it is.

Okay, so now you're simply saying "Nuh uh" to my observations while using the phrase "offensive impact" as proof that a guy is hitting passes as well as the very best passers. If you want to go into more specific data, please do so, but as things stand you seem like you're pushing back away from concrete events to point to an abstraction that doesn't say what you think it says.

But I'll also say this: Surely you're aware of the on-going trope of Kobe taking shots with 3+ defenders around him. Most Kobe fans I know - and I know a lot being born & raised here - specifically love this about Kobe. They imagine it demonstrating his determination and his unstoppability. Leaving aside the problems with lionizing shots that are low percentage makes, whenever you see a situation where there's that much attention on Kobe, there were teammates open, and he wasn't looking for them.

This sort of "tunnel vision" isn't a Kobe-thing. It's a looking-to-score thing. Some guys have it whenever they have the ball, others have it at various stages of their shot-creation process - and even guys who are generally seen as pass-first get to looking-to-score mode, else they'd never score.

And guys from volume scoring backgrounds are specifically known for reacting to the coach saying "Hey, you know you've got teammates open to pass to in that spot", with a huff of "Fine, you want me to pass, I'll be the best passer you've ever seen!". Wilt was the original, and Kobe's got more than a little in common with him in his mindset.

[Dr Positivity]

My description of Durant is it's as if he developed a game to the best one on one or pick up basketball player ever, then entered the NBA.

[eminence]

Went to do Bird and remembered why I didn't do him earlier, complete data is only available from (I think) '84. But here's that onwards:

Bird ('84-'91) 22 series: 26.2 ppg @ +3.9 rTS%, 7.1 apg, 3.0 Tov/g, +7.9 rOff, +0.5 rDef, +7.4 rNet