2020-21 NBA Season Discussion

Moderators: Clyde Frazier, trex_8063, Doctor MJ, penbeast0, PaulieWal, Quotatious

falcolombardi
Junior
Posts: 456
And1: 288
Joined: Apr 13, 2021
       

Re: 2020-21 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#2981 » by falcolombardi » Thu Jun 10, 2021 4:39 pm

Outside wrote:
HeartBreakKid wrote:
Read on Twitter


Chris Paul is obviously really good at minimizing turnovers, but I think people are making too big of a deal of the zero turnovers thing. In game 2, the announcers were talking about him not having any turnovers during some particular stretch, and literally right then, someone poked the ball out away from him from behind, and it pinballed around between multiple players and bounced back to him in the paint, and he made one of his midrange shots. It was a total fluke that he got it back and it wasn't a turnover.

For a guy who handles the ball as much as he does, I'm not sure that zero turnovers on the regular is a good thing. Is he only making safe passes? Is he not willing to take chances because he doesn't want turnovers? It's all good as long as they're winning, but Denver has looked as soft as a marshmallow so far, and it will get tougher in future rounds.

Just an observation and speculation.


the lack of agressiveness is a common criticism to cp3 but i have always felt it more "feeling" that evidence based tbh when his portfolio of great offensive teams is so strong

cp3 teams always are great to elite in offense wherever he goes, this suns team included (top 5 this year i think) so i dont think results indicate a problem with his aproach
Colbinii
RealGM
Posts: 16,840
And1: 9,400
Joined: Feb 13, 2013

Re: 2020-21 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#2982 » by Colbinii » Thu Jun 10, 2021 4:41 pm

Outside wrote:
HeartBreakKid wrote:
Read on Twitter


Chris Paul is obviously really good at minimizing turnovers, but I think people are making too big of a deal of the zero turnovers thing. In game 2, the announcers were talking about him not having any turnovers during some particular stretch, and literally right then, someone poked the ball out away from him from behind, and it pinballed around between multiple players and bounced back to him in the paint, and he made one of his midrange shots. It was a total fluke that he got it back and it wasn't a turnover.

For a guy who handles the ball as much as he does, I'm not sure that zero turnovers on the regular is a good thing. Is he only making safe passes? Is he not willing to take chances because he doesn't want turnovers? It's all good as long as they're winning, but Denver has looked as soft as a marshmallow so far, and it will get tougher in future rounds.

Just an observation and speculation.


Like any statistic, context matters.

It doesn't undermine the fact the statistic is impressive as literally nobody has ever done it since the 1980s and Chris Paul is the only one to do it since then and has done it multiple times.
tsherkin wrote:Locked due to absence of adult conversation.


penbeast0 wrote:Guys, if you don't have anything to say, don't post.


E-Balla wrote:LeBron is Jeff George.
Colbinii
RealGM
Posts: 16,840
And1: 9,400
Joined: Feb 13, 2013

Re: 2020-21 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#2983 » by Colbinii » Thu Jun 10, 2021 4:46 pm

falcolombardi wrote:is weird that pace and space took nearly 40 years to truly get going when you think about it

in hindsight it looks so obvious that you wonder why it took this long


Lots of things take forever to change. You don't need to look past the political climate in America to see how resistant many people are to change.
tsherkin wrote:Locked due to absence of adult conversation.


penbeast0 wrote:Guys, if you don't have anything to say, don't post.


E-Balla wrote:LeBron is Jeff George.
Doctor MJ
Senior Mod
Senior Mod
Posts: 44,221
And1: 13,167
Joined: Mar 10, 2005
Location: Cali
   

Re: 2020-21 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#2984 » by Doctor MJ » Thu Jun 10, 2021 5:51 pm

eminence wrote:Who was coaching the Warriors when they went small back in ‘90 (I think) and upset the Robinson Spurs, was that Nelson?


Ya, it was Nelson from '89 to '95.
Hey: With what's going on in the world, my fuse is shorter than it used to be, and it's leading my lose my cool and then go on self-imposed breaks from things (such as RealGM). Please try to keep it civil, and I'll be looking to do the same.
Doctor MJ
Senior Mod
Senior Mod
Posts: 44,221
And1: 13,167
Joined: Mar 10, 2005
Location: Cali
   

Re: 2020-21 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#2985 » by Doctor MJ » Thu Jun 10, 2021 5:54 pm

falcolombardi wrote:
Doctor MJ wrote:
NinjaSheppard wrote:Seeing the Dirk vs Jokic discussion and I am really struggling to compare players from 2000-2010 and players from the last few years. The league is talented as its ever been but this really feels like a completely different sport being played out there now. It is approaching the passing stats change in the NFL in terms of difference.


The analogy to the NFL becoming a passing game instead of a running game is dead on. Both the NFL & NBA have had some strategic shifts on offense that makes the game more offensive - and yes, both have been further stoked by rule changes, but the strategy is the key change.

By contrast, I've been saying for decades that hockey needs to make changes because the supremacy of defensive strategy has made it really hard to get non-hard core fans excited.

The thing that's funny about hockey is that it's so, so easy to fix but hockey purists don't want to do it. If hockey goalies have to be allowed to wear absurdly excessive padding in the name of their safety, then you have to make the goal bigger if you want to have a similar balance to what it was in the Gretzky era.

Then of course there's baseball who put themselves in just a really tough position when they covertly embraced steroids and then had to backtrack with performative outrage when it became too obvious.


many other sports have became optimized too

soccer doesnt have rule changes but offense and scoring have gone up as strategy and táctics get better in both sides (less long ball game, more defensive pressing, eh )

baseball with bunts or base stealing becoming discouraged

Boxing has become Cleaner and more tsctical/technical with violent slugfests becoming a thingh of the past

statistics have changed the way the games are played to be more optimized, but optimized doesnt always means it is liked by fans

nfl, soccer, basketball, baseball, volleyball a bit from what i have seen

all of them seem to have evolved/changed, whether aided by rules or not to their most optimized styles

and in all of them part of the fans dont like the changes and sometimes blame somethingh, whether new rules or player "softness" or "advanced statistics" for running the game.

it seems to be a common trend in all sports i have series at among its fans


Agreed that all sports have evolved. Some more dramatically than others, some in a direction that makes the sport more fan-friendly, others effectively fan-hostile.
Hey: With what's going on in the world, my fuse is shorter than it used to be, and it's leading my lose my cool and then go on self-imposed breaks from things (such as RealGM). Please try to keep it civil, and I'll be looking to do the same.
Doctor MJ
Senior Mod
Senior Mod
Posts: 44,221
And1: 13,167
Joined: Mar 10, 2005
Location: Cali
   

Re: 2020-21 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#2986 » by Doctor MJ » Thu Jun 10, 2021 5:58 pm

Texas Chuck wrote:
Doctor MJ wrote:
As in, Nelson tended to have a lot of wacky lineups that couldn't really be said to be proto-pace & space. They had elements of pace & space, but then "Hey, let's get the 7 foot 7 guy who killed a lion!".

By contrast, guys like Mike D'Antoni and (the forgotten) Rick Pitino had a specific theory based around the power of the 3 point shot which has now been shown to be absolutely correct.



I wonder how much of that is actually true about Nellie and how much of that is him intentionally playing up that image. He was such a fun guy and loved doing bits with the media from the fish ties to Pismo Beach Panthers and a million things in between. Absolutely he experimented with Bol shooting 3's and Wang Zhi Zhi and that sort of thing, but when it came down to it I think he was a pretty serious coach who imo deserves to mentioned with those other guys for how he created offensive advantages for his teams.

And he absolutely was playing tons of small ball before small ball was a thing.


I might see it different if we saw continued refinement of small ball in a smarter and smarter direction, but that's most definitely not what we saw. It's not just that he didn't win titles, it's that he'd move in a direction we'd now see as progressive only to then veer off-course.

I don't know who all was involved in trading for Antoine/Antawn, but this was a massive misstep.
Hey: With what's going on in the world, my fuse is shorter than it used to be, and it's leading my lose my cool and then go on self-imposed breaks from things (such as RealGM). Please try to keep it civil, and I'll be looking to do the same.
User avatar
Texas Chuck
Senior Mod - Mavericks and NBA TnT Forum
Senior Mod - Mavericks and NBA TnT Forum
Posts: 64,520
And1: 59,952
Joined: May 19, 2012
Location: 403 Minutes in the Bay
   

Re: 2020-21 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#2987 » by Texas Chuck » Thu Jun 10, 2021 6:09 pm

Doctor MJ wrote:
I don't know who all was involved in trading for Antoine/Antawn, but this was a massive misstep.


Yes and No. Walker was they gave Raef $70M and then realized his knees were pretty much shot. They did not make that deal for basketball reasons but to escape the contract. Obviously on the court that trade sucked and imo led directly to Nash's departure.

NVE for Jamison was I think simply a value grab/extend a salary slot. NVE was expiring and older and I think they saw the chance to swap him for Jamison as a value play worth making.

The Jamison trade was an intentional decision and baked into their team-building plans. The Walker trade happened days before the season started and wasn't. Jamison as a scoring 6th man replacing NVE seemed very reasonable. And he had arguably the best year of his career in the role he was probably ideally suited for. Walker shoe-horned in as a starter without a position not so much.

And obviously the team immediately moved on. Jamison asked out because he wanted to be a starter and Walker because Dallas realize how much he sucked. And they got really nice value when they traded them. But it absolutely wrecked that 03-04 team after the run to the WCF.

Nellie was obviously running the team then and Cuban was still relatively new so I do think most of the blame probably is on Nellie, but the Walker deal is forgivable because it was never about Walker as much as not having the Raef deal on the books for years to come.
bondom34 wrote:This is stupid and you know this is stupid.
KD35Brah
Assistant Coach
Posts: 4,396
And1: 3,022
Joined: May 11, 2014

Re: 2020-21 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#2988 » by KD35Brah » Thu Jun 10, 2021 7:45 pm

Read on Twitter
?s=21
Colbinii
RealGM
Posts: 16,840
And1: 9,400
Joined: Feb 13, 2013

Re: 2020-21 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#2989 » by Colbinii » Thu Jun 10, 2021 7:51 pm

KD35Brah wrote:
Read on Twitter
?s=21



This will be his first above average defense faced.
tsherkin wrote:Locked due to absence of adult conversation.


penbeast0 wrote:Guys, if you don't have anything to say, don't post.


E-Balla wrote:LeBron is Jeff George.
falcolombardi
Junior
Posts: 456
And1: 288
Joined: Apr 13, 2021
       

Re: 2020-21 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#2990 » by falcolombardi » Thu Jun 10, 2021 8:03 pm

Colbinii wrote:
KD35Brah wrote:
Read on Twitter
?s=21



This will be his first above average defense faced.


nothingh above bucks has looked above average this series
Fundamentals21
Rookie
Posts: 1,081
And1: 464
Joined: Nov 28, 2012
         

Re: 2020-21 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#2991 » by Fundamentals21 » Thu Jun 10, 2021 8:32 pm

KD35Brah wrote:
Read on Twitter
?s=21


Paced himself pretty well after his RS injuries and is now tearing apart the Bucks. Not much to say here, simply a legend.
parsnips33
Analyst
Posts: 3,117
And1: 927
Joined: Sep 01, 2014
 

Re: 2020-21 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#2992 » by parsnips33 » Thu Jun 10, 2021 9:33 pm

KD35Brah wrote:
Read on Twitter
?s=21


That Clippers series is still my favorite KD moment. Just totally took over when the team was in general kinda listless and the Clippers were clearly energized
User avatar
eminence
General Manager
Posts: 9,230
And1: 5,765
Joined: Mar 07, 2015
 

Re: 2020-21 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#2993 » by eminence » Thu Jun 10, 2021 9:44 pm

Intriguingly I have the Clippers (maybe '19 playoffs in general) as the lowpoint for KD with the Warriors. Froze the rest of the team out is how I saw it.
'17-'18 APBR Win Projections Champion (1st of 20)
'18-'19 5th of 18
'19-'20 2nd of 17
parsnips33
Analyst
Posts: 3,117
And1: 927
Joined: Sep 01, 2014
 

Re: 2020-21 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#2994 » by parsnips33 » Thu Jun 10, 2021 9:52 pm

eminence wrote:Intriguingly I have the Clippers (maybe '19 playoffs in general) as the lowpoint for KD with the Warriors. Froze the rest of the team out is how I saw it.


I associate that more with first half of the Houston series that would immediately follow. Warriors were sleepwalking through the Clippers series, giving up super easy offense to Lou Will and Harrell. There was an element of KD dominating the ball, but I saw it as for the good of the team. They needed somebody to set the tone and bring the intensity
HeartBreakKid
RealGM
Posts: 19,235
And1: 15,337
Joined: Mar 08, 2012
     

Re: 2020-21 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#2995 » by HeartBreakKid » Thu Jun 10, 2021 10:14 pm

Outside wrote:
HeartBreakKid wrote:
Read on Twitter


Chris Paul is obviously really good at minimizing turnovers, but I think people are making too big of a deal of the zero turnovers thing. In game 2, the announcers were talking about him not having any turnovers during some particular stretch, and literally right then, someone poked the ball out away from him from behind, and it pinballed around between multiple players and bounced back to him in the paint, and he made one of his midrange shots. It was a total fluke that he got it back and it wasn't a turnover.

For a guy who handles the ball as much as he does, I'm not sure that zero turnovers on the regular is a good thing. Is he only making safe passes? Is he not willing to take chances because he doesn't want turnovers? It's all good as long as they're winning, but Denver has looked as soft as a marshmallow so far, and it will get tougher in future rounds.

Just an observation and speculation.

I mean yes - but by that notion any big time scoring game is also a fluke. Damian Lillard doesn't normally score 55 points, but it's still impressive.

At the end of the day, if what you said counted as a turnover he would have had 15 assist on 1 turn over. So is it really worth mentioning?




for your second paragraph, it's very much a good thing to not have turnovers. The team he is on has the 2nd best record in the league and they're on path for the WCF, so I'd say he's not playing it too safe. They're a good offensive team.



I think the idea that Chris Paul plays too safe kind of undermines his playstyle. This is a player who regularly dribbles in the paint, and hits passes in between opposing defenders. He's also a player who scores a high amount of his shots on mid range jumpers which are supposed to be the unsafest shot in basketball. CP3 hitting a bounce pass into the paint is considered safe play, but someone like Harden who regularly gets assist by kicking it out to wide open corner 3s is a risk taker.

It would seem like to me that instead of seeing a highly efficient player with low PPG, high APG on low turnovers - people will conclude he must be playing it safe instead of concluding that perhaps he's just very good.
falcolombardi
Junior
Posts: 456
And1: 288
Joined: Apr 13, 2021
       

Re: 2020-21 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#2996 » by falcolombardi » Thu Jun 10, 2021 10:27 pm

HeartBreakKid wrote:
Outside wrote:
HeartBreakKid wrote:
Read on Twitter


Chris Paul is obviously really good at minimizing turnovers, but I think people are making too big of a deal of the zero turnovers thing. In game 2, the announcers were talking about him not having any turnovers during some particular stretch, and literally right then, someone poked the ball out away from him from behind, and it pinballed around between multiple players and bounced back to him in the paint, and he made one of his midrange shots. It was a total fluke that he got it back and it wasn't a turnover.

For a guy who handles the ball as much as he does, I'm not sure that zero turnovers on the regular is a good thing. Is he only making safe passes? Is he not willing to take chances because he doesn't want turnovers? It's all good as long as they're winning, but Denver has looked as soft as a marshmallow so far, and it will get tougher in future rounds.

Just an observation and speculation.

I mean yes - but by that notion any big time scoring game is also a fluke. Damian Lillard doesn't normally score 55 points, but it's still impressive.

At the end of the day, if what you said counted as a turnover he would have had 15 assist on 1 turn over. So is it really worth mentioning?




for your second paragraph, it's very much a good thing to not have turnovers. The team he is on has the 2nd best record in the league and they're on path for the WCF, so I'd say he's not playing it too safe. They're a good offensive team.



I think the idea that Chris Paul plays too safe kind of undermines his playstyle. This is a player who regularly dribbles in the paint, and hits passes in between opposing defenders. He's also a player who scores a high amount of his shots on mid range jumpers which are supposed to be the unsafest shot in basketball. CP3 hitting a bounce pass into the paint is considered safe play, but someone like Harden who regularly gets assist by kicking it out to wide open corner 3s is a risk taker.

It would seem like to me that instead of seeing a highly efficient player with low PPG, high APG on low turnovers - people will conclude he must be playing it safe instead of concluding that perhaps he's just very good.


people judge cp3 on style rather than results for some reason since his results dont show the limited offense people talk about with him
parsnips33
Analyst
Posts: 3,117
And1: 927
Joined: Sep 01, 2014
 

Re: 2020-21 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#2997 » by parsnips33 » Thu Jun 10, 2021 10:57 pm

A lineup you can make out of only 2nd round picks from the 2014 draft:

Jordan Clarkson
Spencer Dinwiddie
Joe Harris
Jerami Grant
Nikola Jokic

Not too shabby :lol:
falcolombardi
Junior
Posts: 456
And1: 288
Joined: Apr 13, 2021
       

Re: 2020-21 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#2998 » by falcolombardi » Thu Jun 10, 2021 11:42 pm

seems like bucks are sticking with the same lineup

expect nets to keep hitting all their open jump shots as López drops every play and the nets to easily defend giannis off the paint as López clogs it

incredible dissapointed in how budenholzer seems like he will keep trying the same thingh that got him down 0-2
User avatar
eminence
General Manager
Posts: 9,230
And1: 5,765
Joined: Mar 07, 2015
 

Re: 2020-21 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#2999 » by eminence » Thu Jun 10, 2021 11:51 pm

I don't get having Lopez in against the small lineups if you never use him on offense. No early 3's Giannis!

Energy good in Milwaukee though, Nets look a bit out of sorts.
'17-'18 APBR Win Projections Champion (1st of 20)
'18-'19 5th of 18
'19-'20 2nd of 17
HeartBreakKid
RealGM
Posts: 19,235
And1: 15,337
Joined: Mar 08, 2012
     

Re: 2020-21 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#3000 » by HeartBreakKid » Thu Jun 10, 2021 11:55 pm

I still think Giannis is not used right. When he's put in movement he's pretty damn hard to stop.

All this isolation he does from the perimeter is jibber jabber.

Return to Player Comparisons