2020-21 NBA Season Discussion

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Re: 2020-21 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#5301 » by frica » Fri Jul 30, 2021 9:05 pm

Doctor MJ wrote:
Finding this discussion very interesting, but I'm going to harp on the skeptical point you mention:

Low talent pool.

Safe to say that the reason Kevin Durant isn't in this event, is probably not because he tried and failed.

I'm a bit frustrated at the existence of the 3x3 event because I just think specifically the best 3x3 talents in the world are 100% not in the event. I frankly think the Olympics shouldn't be approving new events like this.

Of course, I'm also someone who gets frustrated at the gaudy swimming medal totals drastically inflated by having duplicate events with purposefully inferior strokes. Basically, take any Olympic medal that doesn't say "freestyle" next to it, and to my mind, it shouldn't exist. Track & Field doesn't have separate events for skipping, hopping, and galloping, neither should Swimming.

All this to say, I'm perhaps overly opiniated.

Back to what I'd expect in 3x3 if the best players were truly playing:

1. The existence of a 3-point line, along with the profoundly skilled state of modern shooting, likely pushes the game hard in a particular direction. I can't emphasize enough that in an era without confidence in outside shooting, 3x3 might actually lead to the entire game being as brutal and physical as what interior bigs deal with as the refs look the other way. But that's not the era of basketball we're in.

2. So yeah, you'd really, really only be playing players who were serious shooting threats. Really not hard to find 3 guys in a country who are strong 3-point shooters on top of a star's game, so that's what you'd do, and it would mean that you wouldn't be able to have a big just camp in the interior. So I do think we'd expect 3x3 players to be more perimeter-oriented.

3. One thing I think is interesting is that I think it makes forcing switches much harder. It's easier for the defender to move and navigate, and so one kind of dream team would be supe'd up 3 & D guys. I'm imagining 3 wing-sized guys who can all shoot, all play D, and are able to handle the rock and take it to the hole. Say LeBron/AD/Kawhi? Pretty terrifying to think about.

4. Pick & roll could still be used for a variety of reasons, including just as a wedge to give the man with the ball an opening. I'm imagining Steph Curry out there right now. You couldn't double him. You can provide him momentary separation at any time from his man. That means you can get a good Curry 3-point opportunity basically every possession if you want. It's possible that's actually unbeatable.


Yea, I think it's very well possible that Curry is the GOAT 3x3 talent by a margin.
Haha, I'd pay to see that. Just pure mastery.
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Re: 2020-21 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#5302 » by falcolombardi » Fri Jul 30, 2021 9:16 pm

i imagine in a spot where long shots are so much more valuable at 2vs1 teams would sell out to stop 3 point shots and try to contest the layup instead

a 37% 4 point shot would be nearly 75% Efg, thst is like giannis numbers in the paint, literally gamebreaking

great defense on 1vs1 in the perimete and going over screens and pressure from behind would be the meta imo

great rim protectors would be unvaluable
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Re: 2020-21 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#5303 » by HeartBreakKid » Sat Jul 31, 2021 4:02 pm

Doctor MJ wrote:
Dr Positivity wrote:Breaststroke and backstroke are classic common swimming strokes in a way we can't say about say running backwards in running, and there is walking in the olympics as kind of an equivalent. Butterfly being an event is dumb though, I haven't seen anyone swimming butterfly outside of the competitions


I can meet you halfway here simply because you called out the butterfly. That's the one that just confused the hell out of me. If you look up its advantages it'll actually say "burns calories", which is another way of saying it's an inefficient stroke that still can't claim to be the fastest.


The other races exist because those are games people compete in. That's the point of the Olympics, they're games. Why does the Olympics have Greco Roman wrestling and Freestyle Wrestling? Because changing the rule set makes it a different game.

As for why that would annoy someone is beyond me. It exist for people who care and dedicate their lives to swimming - you want to take that away because it is a minor eye sore to you every 4 years?

There's maybe one stroke they can take off in swimming, the rest are justified.
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Re: 2020-21 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#5304 » by falcolombardi » Sat Jul 31, 2021 4:58 pm

Read on Twitter
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Re: 2020-21 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#5305 » by Doctor MJ » Sat Jul 31, 2021 6:54 pm

HeartBreakKid wrote:
Doctor MJ wrote:
Dr Positivity wrote:Breaststroke and backstroke are classic common swimming strokes in a way we can't say about say running backwards in running, and there is walking in the olympics as kind of an equivalent. Butterfly being an event is dumb though, I haven't seen anyone swimming butterfly outside of the competitions


I can meet you halfway here simply because you called out the butterfly. That's the one that just confused the hell out of me. If you look up its advantages it'll actually say "burns calories", which is another way of saying it's an inefficient stroke that still can't claim to be the fastest.


The other races exist because those are games people compete in. That's the point of the Olympics, they're games. Why does the Olympics have Greco Roman wrestling and Freestyle Wrestling? Because changing the rule set makes it a different game.

As for why that would annoy someone is beyond me. It exist for people who care and dedicate their lives to swimming - you want to take that away because it is a minor eye sore to you every 4 years?

There's maybe one stroke they can take off in swimming, the rest are justified.


It bugs me that swimmers dominate the lists of "greatest Olympians" because the sport essentially inflated the number of medals swimmers could get. In the end, Michael Phelps wasn't even the fastest swimmer of his generation, but some will argue he's the greatest Olympian of all time. Pretty silly imho.

Re: How is wrestling different? I don't think you really want to see m pick nits, but still I'll give it a go:

1. I'm fine with having events have fundamentally different goals - such as different lengths or obstacles.

2. I'm fine with having different weight classes in sports that have a tradition of this.

3. I'm fine with similar events existing that come from different cultures - and here it's the combat sports that I'm largely looking at. One specific thing here is that if you allow true freestyle in combat sports, you'll have a grotesque bloodsport, which is not the Olympic way. So you need rules to allow the combat to take place in relative safety, and every culture makes different rules. I'm basically fine with including any and all of these sports that is not just a national thing. I'd be all for Sumo Wrestling, for example, because I know the sport isn't just a bunch of guys from Japan any more.

Hence, I do have issues with the 3x3 basketball event because I don't actually think it's coming out of a distinct culture - it's largely just a bunch of people not good enough to play 5x5.

And I also have issues with swimming because they clearly just made a bunch of duplicate events coming out of one culture, and the amount of different events at this point amounts to an Olympic landgrab.
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Re: 2020-21 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#5306 » by Texas Chuck » Sat Jul 31, 2021 8:35 pm

3x3 half court basketball has been a staple of hoops for a really long time. There is no money in it to speak of so it doesn't draw the professionals but that doesn't make it not worthwhile. Just like we have 6 and 2 person volleyball and have for a long time and both are very valid sports.

And these swimming strokes have been around for decades and decades. It's part of the ethos of the sport, not some land grab or attempt to make Spitz or Ledeckey or Phelps the GOAT Olympian based on medal count any more than Owens and Lewis competing in the 100,200, relay, and long jump was an attempt to artificially give them more medals.

I'm for anything that gives more athletes a chance to compete and represent their country particularly in these non-revenue sports. Look at the joy of that Tunisian swimmer who won a gold and what that meant to his family and nation. Doing away with this to focus more on the big money sports is anti-Olympics imo.
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Re: 2020-21 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#5307 » by frica » Sun Aug 1, 2021 8:29 am

falcolombardi wrote:
Read on Twitter
?s=19

I think people underrate the visual cues (or psychological effect) the 3-pt line gives them.

They can shoot from that distance if their feet are right before the line. But can they still do it when the line is almost 2 feet away and they're not completely sure they're on their preferred spot?
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Re: 2020-21 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#5308 » by Dr Positivity » Tue Aug 3, 2021 8:52 pm

This whole Bulls plan is horrific
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Re: 2020-21 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#5309 » by falcolombardi » Tue Aug 3, 2021 9:46 pm

i think lakers are playing a high risk/high reward gane both on court and off court

the team is really old which is always a dangerous game and players like westbrook and even Carmelo are guys who can take the ball too much away from lebron amd davis hands

while off court. having so many "has been" big names like howard, melo or even westbrook means the criticism will be harsher if they dont win with "5 Hall of famers" where winning will be credited less because "super team with 5 Hall of famers"

if they win it obviously wont matter tho but i honestly expect davis and lebron to do the heavy lifting, i am very unimpressed with that roster
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Re: 2020-21 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#5310 » by BIGJ1ER » Tue Aug 3, 2021 10:16 pm

Dr Positivity wrote:This whole Bulls plan is horrific


Right? I feel like I'm going crazy seeing all the support their receiving. Trading away multiple future picks for guys like vuc and derozan is just baffling to me. I get they haven't done an amazing job building through the draft, although I really like Pat williams, but capping out your team and mortgaging your future for this roster makes little to no sense, unless Pwill really becomes the next Kawhi in the next year or two.
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Re: 2020-21 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#5311 » by Fadeaway_J » Tue Aug 3, 2021 10:22 pm

BIGJ1ER wrote:
Dr Positivity wrote:This whole Bulls plan is horrific


Right? I feel like I'm going crazy seeing all the support their receiving. Trading away multiple future picks for guys like vuc and derozan is just baffling to me. I get they haven't done an amazing job building through the draft, although I really like Pat williams, but capping out your team and mortgaging your future for this roster makes little to no sense, unless Pwill really becomes the next Kawhi in the next year or two.

A lot of people just get excited over names without considering how good they currently are or how well they fit with each other.

Bulls trying to get into the playoffs come hell or high water. Even with this haphazardly constructed roster, they might have enough in the East.
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Re: 2020-21 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#5312 » by Dupp » Tue Aug 3, 2021 11:15 pm

Dr Positivity wrote:This whole Bulls plan
is horrific




I actually like what the bulls did. They put together a competitive team. Not everyone can be contenders and they e been trash long enough.

Defense could be pretty rough and Thad is a big loss imo but they could Win 50 games potentially.





Edit - you’re talking about trading picks for vooc and demar. Well yeah vuc trade was potentially a mistake but they already went that route so I don’t mind what they’ve done this off season
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Re: 2020-21 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#5313 » by eminence » Wed Aug 4, 2021 2:39 am

Basketball is back baby (obviously the Olympics are ongoing).

Forrest looked pretty good in the Jazz's 2nd summer league game (the Jazz have 2 teams).
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Re: 2020-21 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#5314 » by Fadeaway_J » Wed Aug 4, 2021 3:44 am

Dupp wrote:
Dr Positivity wrote:This whole Bulls plan
is horrific




I actually like what the bulls did. They put together a competitive team. Not everyone can be contenders and they e been trash long enough.

Defense could be pretty rough and Thad is a big loss imo but they could Win 50 games potentially.





Edit - you’re talking about trading picks for vooc and demar. Well yeah vuc trade was potentially a mistake but they already went that route so I don’t mind what they’ve done this off season

Having traded Thad I would be stunned if that team even approaches 50 wins.
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Re: 2020-21 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#5315 » by Mos_Heat » Wed Aug 4, 2021 11:02 am

Dr Positivity wrote:This whole Bulls plan is horrific

With playIn franchises(or GMs :wink: ) are more desperate than ever
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Re: 2020-21 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#5316 » by CBA » Wed Aug 4, 2021 8:01 pm

Definitely feels like any real success from the Bulls will be driven almost entirely through improvement from Ball/Lavine/Williams, which begs the question on why they traded Franz Wagner++ for old guys who can’t move the needle in Vucevic and Derozan.
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Re: 2020-21 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#5317 » by Statlanta » Wed Aug 4, 2021 10:39 pm

Dr Positivity wrote:This whole Bulls plan is horrific

You know we could talk about what the Raptors are doing this offseason.
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iamworthy wrote:Serious question, what's the purpose of this thread?

Exactly the same as every other thread: talk hoops instead of working.
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Re: 2020-21 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#5318 » by Texas Chuck » Fri Aug 6, 2021 1:25 pm

Doctor MJ wrote:I don't want to be overly negative on anyone here, but I do feel compelled to note that I never seriously considered last year's winner Sam Presti this year, for reasons similar to why I wasn't that high on him last year: He's tearing down, not building up. I'm not saying he shouldn't be doing this, or that he's doing this poorly, but it won't amount to a hill of beans unless he drafts, or otherwise uses, all those draft picks really well, and at such time as he finally does so, then I'll be giving him serious consideration.


Totally respect this viewpoint. Here's why I had him anyway:

1. KD and Kyrie were not part of this year. Obviously adding Harden still a massive add, but I think too many people are giving him credit for past year's work and for an award like this I base it only on the one year. Schlenk made as many mistakes if not more than what he got right. And his best move he only achieved because a governor's kid was an idiot. But he overpaid Gallo and gave gtd money into a 3rd year that will hurt. Rondo was a bust. Dunn was a bust. He let the Collins situation linger and as we saw he ended up costing the Hawks $35M more. He kept the wrong coach to start the season. So I just think those candidates aren't very strong. I think Trae and Capela and Nate really bailed him out more than he set them up.

2. But more importantly, Presti. I look at all the teams who have to transition from win now to asset gathering and how many just fail at it or who try and hold on too long. Take my little Mavs who have this incredible talent in Luka still on a rookie deal. And how Dallas should have had all this cap space and a bunch of assets from their down years to have a contender already in place around him. Only they don't. Now part of that was simply KP didn't work out. But also Dallas didn't sell space for assets in years when they were bad. They didn't sell off veterans for whatever they could get. And so now if a star wants out and wants to play with Luka its much harder for them to make an AD or a Harden trade.

Knowing when to tear it down and maximizing every chance to collect asset towards your future is vital. Call it The Process or what Ainge did starting but not ending with the KG/Truth trade. It hasn't (yet) led to the ultimate prize but both teams core players come directly from that approach. The Spurs right now are signing mediocre vets and didn't get value for any of their expiring vets last year and its going to cost them a bit when they next get good. It's an important but overlooked part of team-building and I wanted to recognize the guy who maybe had the best year ever in terms of micro-transactions(and bigger ones) that just kept adding assets to his team.
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Re: 2020-21 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#5319 » by Dupp » Fri Aug 6, 2021 1:51 pm

I don’t understand the kemba buyout. Wasn’t he owed like 74 mil or did I get that wrong?

Why would they buy him out, how much was it for and why did Jenna do it
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Re: 2020-21 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#5320 » by eminence » Sat Aug 7, 2021 4:32 am

Pretty good gold medal game. KD can score anytime anywhere, and Jrue probably won the game with his defense.
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