RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #17 (David Robinson)

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RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #17 (David Robinson) 

Post#1 » by trex_8063 » Mon Nov 16, 2020 2:11 am

2020 List
1. LeBron James
2. Michael Jordan
3. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
4. Bill Russell
5. Tim Duncan
6. Wilt Chamberlain
7. Magic Johnson
8. Shaquille O'Neal
9. Hakeem Olajuwon
10. Larry Bird
11. Kevin Garnett
12. Kobe Bryant
13. Jerry West
14. Oscar Robertson
15. Dirk Nowitzki
16. Karl Malone
17. ???

We'll look to conclude this thread.....idk, roughly late afternoon/early evening (EST) on Tuesday.

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Re: RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #17 

Post#2 » by eminence » Mon Nov 16, 2020 2:51 am

Question was in the #16 thread, but that went real wonky on me, so answering here.

@LA-Bird: I think Bob Davies was almost certainly the second best player in the late NBL/Early NBA, all the indicators of the first offensive dynasty while he was at the helm of the Royals. (Kurland/Haynes both with claims to second best player in the world status though)
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Re: RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #17 

Post#3 » by Magic Is Magic » Mon Nov 16, 2020 4:23 am

Voting for the #17 spot

1. David Robinson
2. Kevin Durant
3. Charles Barkley


1. Often times we value one side of the ball (offense) but I have to choose David Robinson here because of his elite ability to play both sides of the ball. Most of the players left are going to be great at offense or defense, and for most of them it will be offense, but his unique skillset of being able to do both at an all-time level plus him winning 2 rings (with one of them as a main piece) is why he gets the nod. The main thing hurting him is that someone like Karl Malone has major longevity over D-Rob and longevity is important no doubt, but D-Rob still played 14 years which is still good, but not great. If you think about it David Robinson's skill set is so rare, he has to be one of the very few to win a blocking title and scoring title in a career. I would be surprised to see if anyone else has ever done that but besides Kareem, and correct me if I am wrong but I don't think it's been done by anyone else besides Robinson and Kareem. Pair that with his DPOY award, his MVP and 2 chips and I think D-Rob wins this spot.

2. I really dislike Kevin Durant's move in 2017 but his overall resume is hard to ignore. 4x Scoring Champion, MVP, 4 Finals, 2 Finals MVPs, 11-straight seasons of 25 ppg or more, 10x All Star (approaching Oscar level who had 12), ROY. KD has averaged 25 ppg or higher every single playoff run and has one of the top 5 all time Finals by GameScore. 14th all time in MVP win shares, 10th all time in playoff points. Again, strongly dislike his move in 2017 but the rest is hard to ignore. I don't think any player not already included in the top 14 has that resume to match up with him.

-Top 10 all time playoff scoring (every one ahead of him in playoff points is already ranked ahead of him except for Karl Malone and Tony Parker, but he will pass TP in his next playoff run)
-11-straight 25 ppg seasons
-EVERY playoff run is 25 ppg or higher
-4 Scoring Titles
-2 Finals MVPs
-1 Regular season MVP
-No one else is close offensively if you ask me, and probably not even remotely close. He has that uncanny ability to pull off a 30 ppg 50/40/90 season, something that very few have ever been able to do

3. Charles Barkley. Sir Charles is a legend, but a ringless legend! If he won a championship I'm sure he would be much higher up but I find it very hard to make the top 15 without a championship when so many other ATGs were able to win a ring. 11x All-Star, 11x All NBA, 1993 MVP and a brilliant Finals performance too. He also has the only single playoff game in league history with a GameScore over 50.0 (1994, WC1). Charles rebounding ability was also on another level, especially for his height and he is a respectable top 25 in MVP win shares as well (Karl Malone is #8). I think 1993 is the one year where Jordan truly stopped someone from winning a championship because Barkley was on a roll and probably not losing to anybody except an all-time performance by MJ where had to average 40 ppg for the series to beat Chuck.
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Re: RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #17 

Post#4 » by Dr Positivity » Mon Nov 16, 2020 5:35 am

Pushing back against Mikan

- Playing in a league with only white American players is a huge difference. As I said in the last thread imagine this era with only white American players and the stats a player like Love would put up. Someone compared it to Cobb and Ruth, but I think it's worse in basketball. Over half the current MLB in white, while in NBA it's less than 20%, and a good chunk of those are europeans.

- From 52-54 he goes from "most dominant vs his era ever" to someone who's still terrific, but not necessarily more dominant than big men like Robinson and Moses in my opinion. So the era where he really towered over someone is EARLY (47-51), on top of the lack of competition he benefitted from rules playing to the post player's favor in a way that nobody else after the rule change ever got to benefit again. I'm guessing this is the biggest reason his offensive production dropped in 52.

- Even after going back to 47, his longevity is still somewhat weak. Robinson's 8th healthy year is 98, and then he still plays 5 more seasons with pretty solid value in my opinion. A player like Erving has clear better longevity.

I'm willing to entertain Mikan vs a center like Ewing but this seems slightly too high.
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Re: RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #17 

Post#5 » by SinceGatlingWasARookie » Mon Nov 16, 2020 5:59 am

Dr Positivity wrote:Pushing back against Mikan

- Playing in a league with only white American players is a huge difference. As I said in the last thread imagine this era with only white American players and the stats a player like Love would put up. Someone compared it to Cobb and Ruth, but I think it's worse in basketball. Over half the current MLB in white, while in NBA it's less than 20%, and a good chunk of those are europeans.

- From 52-54 he goes from "most dominant vs his era ever" to someone who's still terrific, but not necessarily more dominant than big men like Robinson and Moses in my opinion. So the era where he really towered over someone is EARLY (47-51), on top of the lack of competition he benefitted from rules playing to the post player's favor in a way that nobody else after the rule change ever got to benefit again. I'm guessing this is the biggest reason his offensive production dropped in 52.

- Even after going back to 47, his longevity is still somewhat weak. Robinson's 8th healthy year is 98, and then he still plays 5 more seasons with pretty solid value in my opinion. A player like Erving has clear better longevity.

I'm willing to entertain Mikan vs a center like Ewing but this seems slightly too high.


In 1954 Neil Johnston might be better than Mikan.
I don't like longevity but most current Realgm people think Longevity is a big deal and Mikan kind of fails at longevity. Is it fair to expect guys from Mikan's era to have longevity? They were not even being paid all that well.

Then there is the question of whether dominance of an era should be the standard with complete disregard for the quality of the era. It looks like the voting pattern of this project is making some sort of compromise between dominance of an era and more modern capabilities. I watched a little video and decided Mikan probably would be a useful player in the modern era if he could adjust. He would need to learn that traveling is legal now.
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Re: RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #17 

Post#6 » by SinceGatlingWasARookie » Mon Nov 16, 2020 6:05 am

Magic Is Magic wrote:Voting for the #17 spot

1. David Robinson
2. Kevin Durant
3. Charles Barkley
.

I think all 3 of those guys had better peaks than some of the relatively modern players that have already been selected.
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Re: RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #17 

Post#7 » by Joao Saraiva » Mon Nov 16, 2020 8:48 am

SinceGatlingWasARookie wrote:
Magic Is Magic wrote:Voting for the #17 spot

1. David Robinson
2. Kevin Durant
3. Charles Barkley
.

I think all 3 of those guys had better peaks than some of the relatively modern players that have already been selected.


What modern players? Is that relevant to this thread?
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Re: RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #17 

Post#8 » by Dutchball97 » Mon Nov 16, 2020 9:15 am

Joao Saraiva wrote:
SinceGatlingWasARookie wrote:
Magic Is Magic wrote:Voting for the #17 spot

1. David Robinson
2. Kevin Durant
3. Charles Barkley
.

I think all 3 of those guys had better peaks than some of the relatively modern players that have already been selected.


What modern players? Is that relevant to this thread?


You're big on Karl Malone and all but no need to get so defensive.
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Re: RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #17 

Post#9 » by 70sFan » Mon Nov 16, 2020 9:46 am

Dutchball97 wrote:
Joao Saraiva wrote:
SinceGatlingWasARookie wrote:I think all 3 of those guys had better peaks than some of the relatively modern players that have already been selected.


What modern players? Is that relevant to this thread?


You're big on Karl Malone and all but no need to get so defensive.

Karl Malone isn't "modern" compared to Barkley, Robinson and especially Durant.
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Re: RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #17 

Post#10 » by Dutchball97 » Mon Nov 16, 2020 9:56 am

70sFan wrote:
Dutchball97 wrote:
Joao Saraiva wrote:
What modern players? Is that relevant to this thread?


You're big on Karl Malone and all but no need to get so defensive.

Karl Malone isn't "modern" compared to Barkley, Robinson and especially Durant.


I don't see how Karl Malone would be any less modern than Barkley. It's irrelevant anyway, Joao was talking about how incredibly underrated Karl Malone has become because "he didn't win a ring" in the previous thread. Now in this thread we get someone (imo rightfully) claiming D-Rob, KD and Barkley all peaked higher than Malone and we're right back into defensive discussions. I'd rather we don't start arguments on guys already voted in and focus on the available players instead.
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Re: RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #17 

Post#11 » by 70sFan » Mon Nov 16, 2020 10:44 am

Dutchball97 wrote:
70sFan wrote:
Dutchball97 wrote:
You're big on Karl Malone and all but no need to get so defensive.

Karl Malone isn't "modern" compared to Barkley, Robinson and especially Durant.


I don't see how Karl Malone would be any less modern than Barkley. It's irrelevant anyway, Joao was talking about how incredibly underrated Karl Malone has become because "he didn't win a ring" in the previous thread. Now in this thread we get someone (imo rightfully) claiming D-Rob, KD and Barkley all peaked higher than Malone and we're right back into defensive discussions. I'd rather we don't start arguments on guys already voted in and focus on the available players instead.

I don't think SinceGatlingWasARookie talked about Malone. I may be wrong, but you just assume he did.
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Re: RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #17 

Post#12 » by Joao Saraiva » Mon Nov 16, 2020 10:57 am

Votes
Dr. J
Moses Malone
Kevin Durant


Doc was the most dominant player in the ABA. As much as I don't take that with the same weight I weight the NBA, it still counts for this project, so obviously Doc gets a great boost from that situation.

Once he got in the NBA, he was still very successfull tough, so I'm confident he deserves the praise.

Bunch of great finals like the 77 series, and always played well. Well rounded player (scorer, rebounder, playmaker) and definitely a positive defender from what I saw.

Finally won in 83 in the NBA and Philadelphia won it in a very dominant way. They had to be very good to dominate the Lakers like that. Moses and Dr. J definitely deserve a ton of credit for that run. I know volume wise that is far from the best Dr. J we ever saw, but I won't penalize him for that since it worked so well with what the team needed.

Has all the accodales, has the peak, has the prime and the longevity. Has a ton of diferent situation for us to look at and he was very capable in all of them.

Another thing I'd like to point is that he was a very good and consistent playoff performer.
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Re: RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #17 

Post#13 » by Dutchball97 » Mon Nov 16, 2020 11:00 am

70sFan wrote:
Dutchball97 wrote:
70sFan wrote:Karl Malone isn't "modern" compared to Barkley, Robinson and especially Durant.


I don't see how Karl Malone would be any less modern than Barkley. It's irrelevant anyway, Joao was talking about how incredibly underrated Karl Malone has become because "he didn't win a ring" in the previous thread. Now in this thread we get someone (imo rightfully) claiming D-Rob, KD and Barkley all peaked higher than Malone and we're right back into defensive discussions. I'd rather we don't start arguments on guys already voted in and focus on the available players instead.

I don't think SinceGatlingWasARookie talked about Malone. I may be wrong, but you just assume he did.


I don't assume he only talked about Malone. Some relatively modern players automatically means at least more than one. Good chance Dirk was also part of that statement. Maybe Kobe and/or KG as well.

I replied to Joao though, who I did assume was hinting specifically to Malone. I could be wrong though, just seemed likely considering his last post about Malone in the other thread.
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Re: RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #17 

Post#14 » by 70sFan » Mon Nov 16, 2020 11:14 am

How do you view KD vs Moses? Durant doesn't have long prime but it is decent (2009-19). Although Moses has longevity egde and longer prime (1978-90), most of his post-prime seasons aren't that valuable. Durant has overall clearly better team success, but Moses spent most of his prime years in weak teams (outside of 1983-86, basically non of his teams were title-worthy).

Edit: how about Barkley vs Durant? I view Barkley as better offensive player with better and longer prime, but I don't see many votes for him.
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Re: RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #17 

Post#15 » by Matt15 » Mon Nov 16, 2020 11:41 am

I vote for David Robinson. The best two-way player remaining and a GOAT level defender. He is also a GOAT level regular season player and one of the best floor raisers in NBA history. His impact was immediately felt when he came to the Spurs as he led the Spurs to multiple 50 win seasons, 3 semis and the WCF. Besides Lebron nobody was carrying teams like D-Rob was in the early to mid 90’s.

Out of all the players I feel D-Rob gets the worst rap from only one playoff series against arguable the greatest matchup center of all-time in Hakeem. People forget he was ranked right there with Hakeem until that fateful ‘95 playoff series. Robinson’s 7-year run from 1990-‘96 is very impressive and something you can stack stack well against any player in terms of capabilities and skill-set.
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Re: RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #17 

Post#16 » by Odinn21 » Mon Nov 16, 2020 11:44 am

17. Moses Malone
I believe this will be my most controversial choice so far but I'm pretty confident in this pick.
His single season peak was tier 2 on overall for me. I'd put 1982 or 1983 Moses in the same tier as 2004 Garnett, even though I'd rate Garnett slightly higher. One of the things going for Moses though, his 3 season peak from 1980-81 to 1982-83 is definitely at the top level among the available names. He does not come short in peak, extended peak, prime and extended prime for me. His career resume is also massive.
He was one of the most skilled bigs on offense. His name rarely comes up among the best low post scorers but he literally had every move in his book and he was at least pretty good on some and great or best on most. Look at the players he thought; Hakeem Olajuwon and Charles Barkley. Also he was at least as good as old man Duncan from mid range.
The arguments against him usually go such as this;
- "He wouldn't be that good in the modern times which utilize PnR far more."
Portability is very important, yes. But, TBH, this is like saying Oscar Robertson did not shoot enough threes to me. Don't see the point of penalizing a player for a play style that was not there in his time.
Also, one of the things that gets easily overlooked while thinking about Moses' portability is that he's quite possibly the greatest foul drawing big. That would make wonders in any era. I don't have the exact numbers right now because BBRef made their play index service paid but I know that Moses Malone before fell out of his prime made young Hakeem Olajuwon fouled out in majority of their h2h games. I wrote the exact numbers in the past on the forum, if I find, I'll edit this part.
- "He was a negative impact on defense."
This is flat out wrong and it's not about some preference unlike the previous point. If Moses Malone was a negative impact on defense, then how did the Sixers improved on defense after losing their best defender in order to get Moses?
1982 Sixers; 7th in DRtg with -3.0 rDRtg
1983 Sixers; 5th in DRtg with -3.8 rDRtg
The thing about his defense was, he was inconsistent. He had bad defensive seasons and good defensive seasons, in the end both sides would cancel out each other and I'd put down Moses Malone as an average defender. But I never get the point of talking about him as if he was Nowitzki who got way more traction than him so far.
- "He was not an impact player."
This is also one of the wrong assumptions about him. I think I watched enough games of him to get the sense of a very positive impact player.
Also there was a Dipper 13 thread at the time, showing on/off Rtg numbers for the '80s Sixers. I'm looking for that, couldn't find it so far. If anyone has the link, it'd be appreciated.
Edit; Found it.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1ZxRM9p2dFil5w6s21VEB4HnQZJymEY8_2vej-jREuUo/edit#gid=459687126
Just look at the numbers he had in '83 and '85 in Philly. (I tend to consider 1984 of Moses as something like 2005 for Bryant, a down year but also an outlier.)

The only aspect I'd hold against him is his passing. He was not a black hole, he was a decent facilitator. Though his passing lacked in some sense and you wouldn't see him those cutting passes to a guard under the basket. That type of stuff was the only major gap in his game for me.
His skillset was great, his scoring volume was great, he had the proper impact on offense, he's among one of the greatest rebounders. We usually overlook rebounding, the neutral aspect of the game, in this offense and defense evaluations. His defensive inconsistencies and passing issues are there to be addressed surely but, his great qualities are enough for me to put him on 14th spot.

Note: I have been voting for Malone since the #12 thread for the #14 spot.

18. George Mikan
To be honest, I probably even watched footages of Bob Pettit way more than Mikan, let alone Russell or other '60s legends. But Mikan's legacy and impact has to be in the top 20. I'll never be sure about his exact placement on the list but it's time I start to include him on my ballot.

19. Julius Erving
Among remaining names, it's hard for me to put Barkley, Curry or Durant ahead of Erving for career value. Erving not replacing his ABA impact in NBA usually gets held against him but I don't see him as a worse player in 1977 compared to 1976 just because there was the merger. I just don't agree with that notion. Also, from 1980 to 1982, IMO his impact was nothing short of his successful days in ABA. Maybe his performance was a notch below. But I feel like that time frame before Bird's (and Magic's prime) is underrated and looking at those 3 seasons on overall, Kareem, Moses and Dr. J were all great and they were all-time level great. It's one of the time frames that's underappreciated for battle for the best player.
The issue with per75 numbers;
36pts on 27 fga/9 fta in 36 mins, does this mean he'd keep up the efficiency to get 48pts on 36fga/12fta in 48 mins?
The answer; NO. He's human, not a linearly working machine.
Per75 is efficiency rate, not actual production.
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Re: RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #17 

Post#17 » by Matt15 » Mon Nov 16, 2020 11:46 am

I vote for David Robinson. The best two-way player remaining and a GOAT level defender. He is also a GOAT level regular season player and one of the best floor raisers in NBA history. His impact was immediately felt when he came to the Spurs as he led the Spurs to multiple 50 win seasons, 3 semis and the WCF. Besides Lebron nobody was carrying teams like D-Rob was in the early to mid 90’s.

Out of all the players I feel D-Rob gets the worst rap from only one playoff series against arguable the greatest matchup center of all-time in Hakeem. People forget he was ranked right there with Hakeem until that fateful ‘95 playoff series. Robinson’s 7-year run from 1990-‘96 is very impressive and something you can stack well against any player in terms of capabilities and skill-set.
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Re: RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #17 

Post#18 » by Odinn21 » Mon Nov 16, 2020 11:48 am

Matt15 wrote:I vote for David Robinson. The best two-way player remaining and a GOAT level defender. He is also a GOAT level regular season player and one of the best floor raisers in NBA history. His impact was immediately felt when he came to the Spurs as he led the Spurs to multiple 50 win seasons, 3 semis and the WCF. Out of all the players I feel D-Rob gets the worst rap from only one playoff series against arguable the greatest matchup center of all-time in Hakeem. People forget he was ranked right there with Hakeem until that fateful ‘95 playoff series. Robinson’s 7-year run from 1990-‘96 is very impressive and something you can stack stack well against any player in terms of capabilities and skill-set.

We have a ballot system. You should vote for 3 names.

Also, it's very hard to agree with your assessment because if you care to look at Robinson's offensive performances in the playoffs in his best 3 consecutive seasons (1994-1996), you'd see that his performance against Olajuwon in 1995 WCF was actually his best performance on offense.

His reputation for being a bad postseason performer is more than justified and it's not solely based on that series against Olajuwon.
The issue with per75 numbers;
36pts on 27 fga/9 fta in 36 mins, does this mean he'd keep up the efficiency to get 48pts on 36fga/12fta in 48 mins?
The answer; NO. He's human, not a linearly working machine.
Per75 is efficiency rate, not actual production.
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Re: RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #17 

Post#19 » by Matt15 » Mon Nov 16, 2020 12:00 pm

Odinn21 wrote:
Matt15 wrote:I vote for David Robinson. The best two-way player remaining and a GOAT level defender. He is also a GOAT level regular season player and one of the best floor raisers in NBA history. His impact was immediately felt when he came to the Spurs as he led the Spurs to multiple 50 win seasons, 3 semis and the WCF. Out of all the players I feel D-Rob gets the worst rap from only one playoff series against arguable the greatest matchup center of all-time in Hakeem. People forget he was ranked right there with Hakeem until that fateful ‘95 playoff series. Robinson’s 7-year run from 1990-‘96 is very impressive and something you can stack stack well against any player in terms of capabilities and skill-set.

We have a ballot system. You should vote for 3 names.

Also, it's very hard to agree with your assessment because if you care to look at Robinson's offensive performances in the playoffs in his best 3 consecutive seasons (1994-1996), you'd see that his performance against Olajuwon in 1995 WCF was actually his best performance on offense.

His reputation for being a bad postseason performer is more than justified and it's not solely based on that series against Olajuwon.


Ok thanks I will try to add more. Yes he had more series that were well below the level he set during the regular season but still I believe that his poor playoff reputation is overstated. Yes he wasn’t the most consistent playoff performer due to a variety of reasons such as lack of offensive help but overall I think he was still pretty good.
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Re: RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #17 

Post#20 » by Odinn21 » Mon Nov 16, 2020 12:08 pm

Matt15 wrote:Yes he wasn’t the most consistent playoff performer due to a variety of reasons but overall I think he was still pretty good.

No, he really was not though.

David Robinson from 1993-94 to 1995-96

27.5 pts 11.2 reb 3.6 ast 1.6 stl 3.3 blk 2.8 tov per game on .589 ts (+5.1 rts) in 243 regular season games
24.0 pts 11.1 reb 2.9 ast 1.4 stl 2.6 blk 3.1 tov per game on .538 ts in 29 playoff games

37.0 pts 15.2 reb 4.8 ast 2.1 stl 4.4 blk 3.8 tov per 100 in regular season games
33.7 pts 15.6 reb 4.1 ast 1.9 stl 3.6 blk 4.3 tov per 100 in playoff games

29.8 per (1.0 rank on average), 6.6 obpm (2.7 rank on average) in regular season
24.6 per, 4.0 obpm in playoffs

In his two playoff runs went further than 1st round in 1995 and 1996; among players played more than 1 series, His per was 6th in 1995 and 1st in 1996. His obpm was 10th in 1995 and 7th in 1996.

He dropped in every single category there is on box numbers.


viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1971138
He had one of the most significant drops. Among superstars, he was definitely one of the worst.
In his best 3 season span, '94-'96, he went from 6.6 obpm to 4.0 obpm in the playoffs.
The issue with per75 numbers;
36pts on 27 fga/9 fta in 36 mins, does this mean he'd keep up the efficiency to get 48pts on 36fga/12fta in 48 mins?
The answer; NO. He's human, not a linearly working machine.
Per75 is efficiency rate, not actual production.

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