RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #18

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Re: RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #18 

Post#101 » by trex_8063 » Fri Nov 20, 2020 1:39 am

Thru post #99:

Julius Erving - 6 (Clyde Frazier, Doctor MJ, Dr Positivity, Joao Saraiva, trex_8063, TrueLAfan)
George Mikan - 5 (DQuinn1575, eminence, Franco, Hornet Mania, penbeast0)
Kevin Durant - 3 (2klegend, Dutchball97, Magic Is Magic)
Chris Paul - 2 (sansterre, Whopper_Sr)
Moses Malone - 2 (Hal14, Odinn21)
Steve Nash - 1 (Jordan Syndrome)


Sorry it’s taken this long to tally; my day’s been insane.
Anyway, 19 counted votes; seems like there’s some nice content in there, too, I haven’t had a chance to read most of it though. So 10 votes required for majority, so we’ll first eliminate Nash. That transfers one more to Erving. Obviously still no majority, so we’ll eliminate Paul and Moses as well, which transfer two more to Erving, one to Mikan, and one is “ghosted”....

Erving - 9
Mikan - 6
Durant - 3
(+1 ghost vote)

So we’ll have to eliminate Durant next, which transfers two more to Erving, and one kinda petulant vote gets ghosted….

Erving - 11
Mikan - 6
(2 ghosts)

Calling it for Erving, and will get next up in a sec….

Spoiler:
Ainosterhaspie wrote:.

Ambrose wrote:.

Baski wrote:.

bidofo wrote:.

Blackmill wrote:.

Cavsfansince84 wrote:.

Clyde Frazier wrote:.

Doctor MJ wrote:.

DQuinn1575 wrote:.

Dr Positivity wrote:.

drza wrote:.

Dutchball97 wrote:.

Eddy_JukeZ wrote:.

eminence wrote:.

Franco wrote:.

freethedevil wrote:.

Gregoire wrote:.

Hal14 wrote:.

HeartBreakKid wrote:.

Hornet Mania wrote:.

Jaivl wrote:.

Joao Saraiva wrote:.

Jordan Syndrome wrote:.

LA Bird wrote:.

lebron3-14-3 wrote:.

limbo wrote:.

Magic Is Magic wrote:.

Matzer wrote:.

Moonbeam wrote:.

Odinn21 wrote:.

Owly wrote:.

O_6 wrote:.

PaulieWal wrote:.

penbeast0 wrote:.

PistolPeteJR wrote:.

RSCD3_ wrote:.

[quote=”sansterre”].[/quote]
Senior wrote:.

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TrueLAfan wrote:.

Whopper_Sr wrote:.

ZeppelinPage wrote:.

2klegend wrote:.

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"Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience." -George Carlin
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Re: RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #18 

Post#102 » by trex_8063 » Fri Nov 20, 2020 1:40 am

Joey Wheeler wrote:I'm probably too late to join the voter pool as I've been away from this forum for a while, but just in case I'll leave a ballot

1-Kevin Durant

Should already be in, don't see any case for some of the guys already in over him. GOAT level scorer, imo the best ever in that regard along with Jordan, his insane volume and efficiency holds up even in the biggest stage in the Finals. Very good longevity already too.

2-Charles Barkley

One of the best offensive players ever, super efficient scorer, great offensive rebounder, he was outright dominant during his prime.

3-Moses Malone

I don't like his skillset for the modern NBA, but his in-era dominance can't be denied, he dominated the league and was an enormous difference maker. You could argue for a higher spot, but again I don't think his game has really aged well.



I'll add you to the voter pool. Jump right in; your vote here doesn't change the outcome.
"Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience." -George Carlin
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Re: RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #18 

Post#103 » by therealbig3 » Fri Nov 20, 2020 8:33 am

eminence wrote:
therealbig3 wrote:
eminence wrote:
By the distinct measure of 'playoff offense' Nash is the untouchable offensive GOAT, everyone else is left in the dust. They were running something like +11.5/+3 (negative good for defense) over his second Phoenix stint in the playoffs (bit of a tragedy they never made it out of the West).

Your last paragraph could just as easily apply to Nash vs Magic/MJ/Oscar/West/Kobe/Bird/etc if you don't believe Phoenix was intentionally tanking the defense to power the offense. If so, why weren't you (and others, as I get you're mostly following along) arguing for Nash far far earlier than this?


I do think there's an element of Phoenix emphasizing offensive personnel over defensive personnel. That matters in the sense that other offensive greats didn't have the luxuries that Nash played with in Phoenix.

In the comparison to Curry though, Curry doesn't get to play that card, he happened to have a ton of talent on both sides of the ball around him. And we've seen Nash in more balanced lineups still maintain ridiculous offensive impact, even when playing with a defensive big like Kurt Thomas and without Amare Stoudemire. GS's success is basically objective proof to me that you could surround Nash with two-way players instead of one-way offensive-minded players and I do think he would have replicated the offensive success we saw in Phoenix while playing on a good defensive team. It's possible to be an uptempo high scoring team that still manages to play great defense, if you have the personnel.

I do think Nash is on the short list of offensive GOATs though, while I do not think Curry is on that list. I think longevity and lack of defense hurts Nash in an overall GOAT list, which is why other high-level perimeter players can be ranked ahead of him all-time.

Also, we don't have as much specific detail about the playoff offenses that Magic/Bird/Jordan/Oscar/West were running, in terms of on/off numbers, so it's hard to say they're definitely left in the dust.


So Nash had 5 playoff runs in his second Phoenix stint.

2005: +17.3/+6.8/+10.5 (Amar'e main big)
2006: +9.4/+4.6/+4.8 (Tim Thomas)
2007: +7.3/-3.2/+10.5 (Amar'e/Kurt Thomas)
2008: +2.7/-0.6/+3.3 (Amar'e/Shaq)
2010: +13.1/+2.6/+10.5 (Amar'e/Frye)

He did not maintain that otherworldly offense without Amar'e at C as the defense improved.

05/06/10 as 'small-ball' seasons
+13.3/+4.7/+8.6

07/08 as traditional C ball seasons
+5.8/-2.3/+8.1

The tradeoff aspect is just glaringly obvious.

1st offense = 5th defense
3rd offense = 4th defense
4th offense = 1st defense
5th offense = 2nd defense
2nd offense = 3rd defense


I mean, I really don't think he had the personnel to have a good defense around him, so it made sense to go all-in on offense.

And in the non-Amare runs, it's Kurt Thomas we're talking about for crying out loud, a guy whose only skill on offense was hitting a midrange jumper. A little unfair to expect him to maintain a dominant playoff offense with Kurt Thomas replacing his best offensive teammate and Shawn Marion as his 2nd option. I think Curry had great personnel on both sides of the ball, so he didn't have to sacrifice anything.

I think the strongest case for Nash here is that the 17 Warriors with Curry on the court had a +18.4 offense in the playoffs, while the 05 Suns with Nash on the court had a +16.7 offense in the playoffs. He basically led a comparable offense in the playoffs to the most loaded team of all time. And Curry never came close to reaching that mark again, despite playing with Durant in 2 other seasons, and still having Klay/Draymond/Iguodala/Barnes/Livingston in 2 other playoff runs, which is honestly not that much different from Amare+Marion+shooters. And the Warriors offense pre-KD was nothing to write home about in the playoffs.

Nash just did more with less on the offensive side of the ball.
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Re: RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #18 

Post#104 » by 2klegend » Fri Nov 20, 2020 9:50 am

70sFan wrote:
2klegend wrote:
70sFan wrote:Because of number of things:

- all of them had clearly better longevity - even someone like West and Robinson,
- most of them peaked clearly higher,
- most posters here don't count rings as valuable criteria, had KD never joined to the Warriors he'd probably still be ringless but that wouldn't make him worse player at all,
- some of them have more accolades than him,
- most of them rank higher in historical impact analysis.

I mean, what's the case for Durant over West for example? 2 FMVPs is very weak one...

Not counting the superiority of Durant's stat over West.

West:
NBA champion (1972)
NBA Finals MVP (1969)
14× NBA All-Star (1961–1974)
NBA All-Star Game MVP (1972)
10× All-NBA First Team (1962–1967, 1970–1973)
2× All-NBA Second Team (1968, 1969)
4× NBA All-Defensive First Team (1970–1973)
NBA All-Defensive Second Team (1969)
NBA scoring champion (1970)
NBA assists leader (1972)

Durant:
2× NBA champion (2017, 2018)
2× NBA Finals MVP (2017, 2018)
NBA Most Valuable Player (2014)
10× NBA All-Star (2010–2019)
2× NBA All-Star Game MVP (2012, 2019)
6× All-NBA First Team (2010–2014, 2018)
3× All-NBA Second Team (2016, 2017, 2019)
NBA Rookie of the Year (2008)
NBA All-Rookie First Team (2008)
4× NBA scoring champion (2010–2012, 2014)

Worth mentioning his accomplishment consists of competing against Lebron in the same forward position in his span career.

I mean, Durant has more rings and FMVPs (which are team accomplishments). He also has one more MVP (so does Iverson, Rose, Unseld, Cowens...). Then West has 4 more all-nba first team selections, 4 more all-star selections and 5 more all-defensive selections. You didn't prove anything, accolades don't make Durant look clearly better.

What stats makes Durant better than West by the way? I'm really curious about that one.

It is hard to compare modern-day player stat to 60s era player stat due to the lack of available data. But with that said, Durant is clearly a more efficient scorer, so stat like PER and ts% . Durant is a 25PER, 61TS% vs West a 23PER, 55 TS%. Defensively, Durant is a better team defender due to his length while West is slightly better man-to-man from the video available.

Like I said, Durant position as a forward competing directly with many all-time level fowards is the reason he couldn't get in as many All-NBA 1st Team. The selection and talent pool is a lot different now.
My Top 100+ GOAT (Peak, Prime, Longevity, Award):
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Re: RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #18 

Post#105 » by 70sFan » Fri Nov 20, 2020 10:03 am

2klegend wrote:It is hard to compare modern-day player stat to 60s era player stat due to the lack of available data. But with that said, Durant is clearly a more efficient scorer, so stat like PER and ts% . Durant is a 25PER, 61TS% vs West a 23PER, 55 TS%.

You should adjust this for era, because West was one of the most efficient volume scorers ever relative to league average. West didn't have three point shot and he played in an era that was less favorable to perimeter players. KD wouldn't average 60 TS% either in the 1960s.
Defensively, Durant is a better team defender due to his length while West is slightly better man-to-man from the video available.

This one I don't buy at all. West is clearly better defender based on what I've seen. Durant became from mediocre to decent defensively, but he's nothing special.
Like I said, Durant position as a forward competing directly with many all-time level fowards is the reason he couldn't get in as many All-NBA 1st Team. The selection and talent pool is a lot different now.

He competed with James and two healthy years of Kawhi. Who else? Melo who's not even close to that level? Dirk was there but only at the beginning of Durant's prime. 2012-15 wasn't strong for forward position at all and in 2016-19 only James and Kawhi was his competition. West had to compete with Oscar Robertson and Walt Frazier for his spots, I don't see this as an excuse for KD.
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Re: RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #18 

Post#106 » by freethedevil » Fri Nov 20, 2020 7:03 pm

therealbig3 wrote:
eminence wrote:
therealbig3 wrote:As someone not taking part and observing in the background, I personally don't understand a Curry>Nash case, if we're looking beyond a ring count.

Nash has clearly demonstrated imo he's more "unguardable" against a wide variety of defenses in a playoff situation. He didn't need Kevin Durant, Klay Thompson, and Draymond Green around him to lead playoff offenses that were comparable to the 2017 Warriors playoff offense, and he's led multiple playoff offenses that are crystal clearly better than any other year of the Warriors dynasty under Curry.

I'm just not seeing the case for Curry over Nash offensively, at all...not in terms of team offense, not in terms of enabling teammates, not in terms of individual ability against elite defenses. And unless Curry is secretly a DPOY caliber player, any difference between them defensively is marginal at best and this pretty much gives Nash the victory in this comparison, no?


By the distinct measure of 'playoff offense' Nash is the untouchable offensive GOAT, everyone else is left in the dust. They were running something like +11.5/+3 (negative good for defense) over his second Phoenix stint in the playoffs (bit of a tragedy they never made it out of the West).

Your last paragraph could just as easily apply to Nash vs Magic/MJ/Oscar/West/Kobe/Bird/etc if you don't believe Phoenix was intentionally tanking the defense to power the offense. If so, why weren't you (and others, as I get you're mostly following along) arguing for Nash far far earlier than this?


I do think there's an element of Phoenix emphasizing offensive personnel over defensive personnel. That matters in the sense that other offensive greats didn't have the luxuries that Nash played with in Phoenix.

In the comparison to Curry though, Curry doesn't get to play that card, he happened to have a ton of talent on both sides of the ball around him. And we've seen Nash in more balanced lineups still maintain ridiculous offensive impact, even when playing with a defensive big like Kurt Thomas and without Amare Stoudemire. GS's success is basically objective proof to me that you could surround Nash with two-way players instead of one-way offensive-minded players and I do think he would have replicated the offensive success we saw in Phoenix while playing on a good defensive team. It's possible to be an uptempo high scoring team that still manages to play great defense, if you have the personnel.

I do think Nash is on the short list of offensive GOATs though, while I do not think Curry is on that list. I think longevity and lack of defense hurts Nash in an overall GOAT list, which is why other high-level perimeter players can be ranked ahead of him all-time.

Also, we don't have as much specific detail about the playoff offenses that Magic/Bird/Jordan/Oscar/West were running, in terms of on/off numbers, so it's hard to say they're definitely left in the dust.

Its wierd how that talent was average or slightly above average without him in 15 and 16. If this wasn't just lineup shanenigans than the induvidual impact numbers should reflect nash being better, yet they don"t.

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