Where do you rank AI in 2001?

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Re: Where do you rank AI in 2001? 

Post#21 » by migya » Thu Nov 19, 2020 3:21 pm

All this use of stats detracts from the truth; What other players could have won that much that season with that Philly team????

Iverson was the only player that could have done so that season.
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Re: Where do you rank AI in 2001? 

Post#22 » by WarriorGM » Thu Nov 19, 2020 3:49 pm

I don't understand the skepticism in relation to Duncan and Carter. The 76ers reached the finals and took a game from the previously unbeaten playoffs Lakers.
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Re: Where do you rank AI in 2001? 

Post#23 » by frica » Thu Nov 19, 2020 3:52 pm

migya wrote:All this use of stats detracts from the truth; What other players could have won that much that season with that Philly team????

Iverson was the only player that could have done so that season.

As stupid as might sound, deserving of being MVP doesn't equal to being a top 3 player in the league.

What he did was amazing, but at the end of the day the goal is increasing your chances of winning a ring and I don't think having Iverson on your team increases that.
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Re: Where do you rank AI in 2001? 

Post#24 » by 70sFan » Thu Nov 19, 2020 4:00 pm

migya wrote:All this use of stats detracts from the truth; What other players could have won that much that season with that Philly team????

Iverson was the only player that could have done so that season.

I'd bet that Allen, Carter and Tmac could have done the same with this team. Besides, Philly getting to the finals was the combination of luck (they won two extremely close series) and weak conference. They wouldn't probably advance to the second round in the West.

WarriorGM wrote:I don't understand the skepticism in relation to Duncan and Carter. The 76ers reached the finals and took a game from the previously unbeaten playoffs Lakers.

So Duncan shouldn't be ranked higher because he faced Lakers earlier than AI? Despite the fact that he led Spurs past Dallas team that was better than any opponent Sixers faced in much more dominant fashion?

As to winning a game against Lakers - Duncan posted 40/15 game (he scored half of Spurs points) and had to play whole game, but Spurs lost because his teammates went 12/45 from the field. Iverson's teammates shot better from the field than him.
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Re: Where do you rank AI in 2001? 

Post#25 » by Firebird1 » Thu Nov 19, 2020 4:18 pm

AI's PER in 2001: 24
BPM: 6.1

Duncan's PER in 2001: 23.8
BPM: 4.7

So AI was clearly better in the RS

PS...

AI
PER- 22.5
BPM- 6.1

Duncan
PER- 25.4
BPM- 6.9

Duncan put up better stats in PS but it's worth noting that he got swept by Shaq while AI went to the Finals.

I would pick AI by a sizable margin in the RS and a very slim margin in the PS since he went to the finals. 8-)
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Re: Where do you rank AI in 2001? 

Post#26 » by Drygon » Thu Nov 19, 2020 4:51 pm

HeartBreakKid wrote:Barely top ten. Vince Carter for example was better than him and Vince was not a top 5/superstar guy.


The idea about Vinsanity not being top 5/superstar during his career is just absurd revisionist history lol.

Vince's stats & impact during 2000-01 season tells otherwise.
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Re: Where do you rank AI in 2001? 

Post#27 » by Jaivl » Thu Nov 19, 2020 5:47 pm

Firebird1 wrote:AI's PER in 2001: 24
BPM: 6.1

Duncan's PER in 2001: 23.8
BPM: 4.7

So AI was clearly better in the RS

PS...

AI
PER- 22.5
BPM- 6.1

Duncan
PER- 25.4
BPM- 6.9

Duncan put up better stats in PS but it's worth noting that he got swept by Shaq while AI went to the Finals.

I would pick AI by a sizable margin in the RS and a very slim margin in the PS since he went to the finals. 8-)

And now add defense.
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ShawnKemp96 wrote:Infact he made a lot more steals than the statisticians think.
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Re: Where do you rank AI in 2001? 

Post#28 » by Narigo » Thu Nov 19, 2020 6:05 pm

Firebird1 wrote:AI's PER in 2001: 24
BPM: 6.1

Duncan's PER in 2001: 23.8
BPM: 4.7

So AI was clearly better in the RS

PS...

AI
PER- 22.5
BPM- 6.1

Duncan
PER- 25.4
BPM- 6.9

Duncan put up better stats in PS but it's worth noting that he got swept by Shaq while AI went to the Finals.

I would pick AI by a sizable margin in the RS and a very slim margin in the PS since he went to the finals. 8-)


Malone should have won MVP over Iverson using this logic

Iverson
BPM: 6.1
PER: 24.0

K.Malone
BPM:6.6
PER:24.7

Malone>Iverson
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Re: Where do you rank AI in 2001? 

Post#29 » by kendogg » Thu Nov 19, 2020 8:22 pm

McBubbles wrote:How is dropping 48 points on 41 shots impressive? You're essentially just giving him props for attempting shots with little regard for whether or not he made them.

I do think he was a top 5-8 player for the season for what it's worth, just an oddly specific event to praise him for.


He's similar to James Harden on the Rockets in that the entire offense is designed around him shooting a lot and having the ball in his hands a lot. Harden in many seasons has not had a great field goal percentage but that's to be expected when defenses can key in on you because they KNOW who is likely to be taking the shot. They are both combo guards that have an extraordinary handle and scoring ability, that are capable of being a 1-man show on offense.

The thing is, Iverson had less help on many of those 76er teams than even Harden on the Rockets. Iverson didn't even have good shooters to kick it out to on most of those teams. So defenses could focus in on him even more. And Iverson is also much smaller than Harden and at only 150 lbs, he certainly got knocked around in the paint a bit. Despite that, AI averaged around 10 FTA in his prime which is about the same as Harden despite the game pace being 10% slower in most of AI's prime.

I don't hear too many people saying Harden isn't a top 5 player, and nobody back in AI's day said that either, at least the folks in the know.
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Re: Where do you rank AI in 2001? 

Post#30 » by kendogg » Thu Nov 19, 2020 8:42 pm

HeartBreakKid wrote:Barely top ten. Vince Carter for example was better than him and Vince was not a top 5/superstar guy.

kendogg wrote:LMAO stockton wasn't even better at defense at that point in his career compared to iverson.

Leading the league in steals has nothing to do with being a good on ball defender. Iverson was not a "good" defender, nor was he a good on ball defender. He is 5'11, 160 pounds, skinny and didn't have a good b-ball IQ. That doesn't scream good defender to me, nor have I seen him play good defense since he was in college.


First of all prime Carter is not better than prime AI. That's like saying Zach Lavine is better than James Harden. Honestly I hope you were drunk when you posted that.

And maybe I was exaggerating a bit when I say Iverson is a very good defender and it would be more accurate to say he was capable of playing good defense in spurts. Because defense is more about consistent effort than ability, and we all know guys like Iverson and Harden have not shown consistent effort on defense because they need all the energy they can get for offense, because they were forced to be 1-man armies on offense due to their team makeup. But both of these guys have a very high basketball IQ and it's pretty dumb to say otherwise. Iverson didn't have the size to match up well with bigger guards, but he was capable of playing very good defense in spurts. Jordan and Kobe coasted on defense more than most realize/willing to admit, and were hidden on defense in many cases with other teammates taking the tough defensive assignments. I'm not saying AI/Harden are as good defensively as those 2, they weren't. But NONE of their defensive reputations are super accurate, as they all exerted much more energy on offense, but could step up to play defense when needed. Again, AI less so just because of his size limitation, but he was good at playing passing lanes for a guy his size.
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Re: Where do you rank AI in 2001? 

Post#31 » by Drygon » Thu Nov 19, 2020 9:25 pm

kendogg wrote:
HeartBreakKid wrote:Barely top ten. Vince Carter for example was better than him and Vince was not a top 5/superstar guy.

kendogg wrote:LMAO stockton wasn't even better at defense at that point in his career compared to iverson.

Leading the league in steals has nothing to do with being a good on ball defender. Iverson was not a "good" defender, nor was he a good on ball defender. He is 5'11, 160 pounds, skinny and didn't have a good b-ball IQ. That doesn't scream good defender to me, nor have I seen him play good defense since he was in college.


First of all prime Carter is not better than prime AI. That's like saying Zach Lavine is better than James Harden. Honestly I hope you were drunk when you posted that.


Zach Lavine has never been on prime Vince's level. Maybe you're one being drunk when you posted that?
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Re: Where do you rank AI in 2001? 

Post#32 » by Hussien Fatal » Thu Nov 19, 2020 9:50 pm

My god does OP really have Stockton on that list lol.

Look it was clear that the only player who even remotely has an argument over Ai that year is Shaq. Ai out played 4 HOFers in the playoffs that year. I know Reggie and Vince and Allen all Had excellent series’ vs the sixers that year, but I give Iverson the edge for willing his team to victory each series by scoring 35% of his teams points. Kobe was good in the finals but 36ppg vs 24ppg leans in iversons favor and I don’t care how many shots it took for him to out score Kobe.
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Re: Where do you rank AI in 2001? 

Post#33 » by Hussien Fatal » Thu Nov 19, 2020 9:55 pm

Prime Ai from 98-03 was a top 5 player during that span of his career. During that span
4 time all star
5 time all nba
1x mvp
3x steals champ
4 time scoring champ.
1x finals appearance
5 playoff appearances

He was by far the most popular player during that span.
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Re: Where do you rank AI in 2001? 

Post#34 » by freethedevil » Fri Nov 20, 2020 6:57 pm

McBubbles wrote:
Pelly24 wrote:i feel like AI is just a very hard player to truly contextualize and properly evaluate. In my opinion, he was better than Ray Allen and Vince Carter and people like that. He dropped 50 on peak Lakers. Being able to get that many buckets at that rate in *that* era is just insane, even if the efficiency was only so-so. If you look at it this way: could the 76ers have reasonably been expected to perform better with anyone else in AI's position? If this was a test he got an A+. They got to the finals and took a game from two top 3 players at their peak in a lot of ways. Maybe if it's a weaker team AI is a champion. I think the idea that AI maximized the situation is overlooked.

I'd say Shaq, Kobe, KG, TD and probably dirk over AI for that season.

Some things can't be measured by pure stats. And for what it's worth I'm pretty sure peak AI could average 33/7 on 60 TS%. Nobody in the whole world could keep him away from the basket, and he'd dunk on small centers, honestly.


How is dropping 48 points on 41 shots impressive? You're essentially just giving him props for attempting shots with little regard for whether or not he made them.

I do think he was a top 5-8 player for the season for what it's worth, just an oddly specific event to praise him for.

dont forget that vince carter took him to 7 and posted better offensive numbers with aboth a worse team while playing a much better defense.

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