All-NBA Teams Project: 1981-85 All-NBA Second Team

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All-NBA Teams Project: 1981-85 All-NBA Second Team 

Post#1 » by 70sFan » Wed Nov 18, 2020 10:44 am

Here is the link to the project thread:

viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1998780

Pick the second team from 1980/81 to 1984/85 season. Explain all your choices at least in short description.

Official 1981-85 All-NBA First Team

G: 1984/85 Magic Johnson
G: 1984/85 Sidney Moncrief
F: 1981/82 Julius Erving
F: 1983/84 Larry Bird
C: 1982/83 Moses Malone


Rules:

1. Include both RS and playoffs (it's not RS award like in real life).

2. You can pick only one season per player - for example, you can't use 2016 and 2018 James in different teams.

3. Votes will be counted per player, not per version of player. I think that otherwise, we'll have players with multiple great seaosns (like James or Kareem for example) unfairly downgraded.

4. We vote in a G/G/F/F/C system.

If you want to participate, just let me know. I'm trying to get consistent list of voters.

Spoiler:
Odinn21 wrote:I'm in.

Doctor MJ wrote:Sounds fun. I'm in.

Dutchball97 wrote:I'm in.

PistolPeteJR wrote:I'm in lol. :D

Ryoga Hibiki wrote:yes

Orin wrote:I would love to participate

ardee wrote:Sure

Heej wrote:Interesting I'm in

clearlynotjesse wrote:I wanna play

E-Balla wrote:I'm down but my participation won't be super consistent like usual, sorry for that.

Eddy_JukeZ wrote:I'm in.

SinceGatlingWasARookie wrote:I can participate, but not reliably
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Re: All-NBA Teams Project: 1981-85 All-NBA Second Team 

Post#2 » by 70sFan » Wed Nov 18, 2020 11:07 am

My votes:

G: 1984/85 Isiah Thomas
G: 1981/82 George Gervin
F: 1983/84 Adrian Dantley
F: 1980/81 Marques Johnson
C: 1980/81 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar


Isiah Thomas - it's a tough choice between him and Gus Williams. I decided to go with Thomas because he was a bit better in playoffs. I can change this vote if someone gives better option though. I also thought about rookie MJ and Dennis Johnson.

George Gervin - unreal scoring season, one of the most underrated ever. He's clearly better player than rookie Jordan at this point.

Adrian Dantley - you can call it a homer pick, but I just think that Dantley was better player than King. He had very complete season in 1984 - outstanding RS and just as good playoffs. It wasn't his fault that he lost to the Suns.

Marques Johnson - probably the most underrated forward of the 1980s. He didn't have any notable weaknesses - excellent ballhandler at 6'7, elite inside scorer, good passer and defender. He's the best forward available here.

Kareem Abdul-Jabbar - he's clearly the best player here and arguably should have been in the first.
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Re: All-NBA Teams Project: 1981-85 All-NBA Second Team 

Post#3 » by Dutchball97 » Wed Nov 18, 2020 11:17 am

George Gervin had 1.8 BPM and .092 WS/48 in the post-season in 1982. It wasn't even an outlier since it was probably still his best post-80 run. Rookie Jordan had a 9.5 BPM and .192 WS/48. It's not even comparable.

Sure Gervin scored 29 points per game but he had a PER of 18.7 and a TS% of 51.1 in the play-offs. Jordan also averaged 29 points but with a 24.7 PER and 56.5 TS%.

The regular season is much closer but arguing for Gervin over MJ there is already questionable, while the play-offs gap is so gigantic that you must be trolling at this point.
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Re: All-NBA Teams Project: 1981-85 All-NBA Second Team 

Post#4 » by 70sFan » Wed Nov 18, 2020 11:30 am

Dutchball97 wrote:George Gervin had 1.8 BPM and .092 WS/48 in the post-season in 1982. It wasn't even an outlier since it was probably still his best post-80 run. Rookie Jordan had a 9.5 BPM and .192 WS/48. It's not even comparable.

Sure Gervin scored 29 points per game but he had a PER of 18.7 and a TS% of 51.1 in the play-offs. Jordan also averaged 29 points but with a 24.7 PER and 56.5 TS%.

The regular season is much closer but arguing for Gervin over MJ there is already questionable, while the play-offs gap is so gigantic that you must be trolling at this point.

Yeah, because analyzing via PER and TS% is the only thing that matters. Who cares that Gervin did all these things while leading 3rd best offense in the league (1985 Bulls were 11th in the league)?

If you want to rave about first round exit, then I can choose 1981 Gervin who played well in more competitive series than Jordan against the Bucks when Bulls weren't comeptitive at all.
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Re: All-NBA Teams Project: 1981-85 All-NBA Second Team 

Post#5 » by Dutchball97 » Wed Nov 18, 2020 11:35 am

70sFan wrote:
Dutchball97 wrote:George Gervin had 1.8 BPM and .092 WS/48 in the post-season in 1982. It wasn't even an outlier since it was probably still his best post-80 run. Rookie Jordan had a 9.5 BPM and .192 WS/48. It's not even comparable.

Sure Gervin scored 29 points per game but he had a PER of 18.7 and a TS% of 51.1 in the play-offs. Jordan also averaged 29 points but with a 24.7 PER and 56.5 TS%.

The regular season is much closer but arguing for Gervin over MJ there is already questionable, while the play-offs gap is so gigantic that you must be trolling at this point.

Yeah, because analyzing via PER and TS% is the only thing that matters. Who cares that Gervin did all these things while leading 3rd best offense in the league (1985 Bulls were 11th in the league)?

If you want to rave about first round exit, then I can choose 1981 Gervin who played well in more competitive series than Jordan against the Bucks when Bulls weren't comeptitive at all.


You were talking about Gervin having a great scoring season. How in the world are PER and TS% irrelevant to that?

1981 Gervin had a 0.6 BPM in the play-offs. You're not even trying at this point. That's barely starter level, let alone anywhere near MJ.

I'm not a fan of looking at good performances in first round or uneventful second round exits and claiming they're better than deep runs. Neither MJ or Gervin had deep runs in these seasons though but MJ played great in the few games he did play, while Gervin didn't do the same. How is this difficult to understand?
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Re: All-NBA Teams Project: 1981-85 All-NBA Second Team 

Post#6 » by 70sFan » Wed Nov 18, 2020 12:10 pm

Dutchball97 wrote:
70sFan wrote:
Dutchball97 wrote:George Gervin had 1.8 BPM and .092 WS/48 in the post-season in 1982. It wasn't even an outlier since it was probably still his best post-80 run. Rookie Jordan had a 9.5 BPM and .192 WS/48. It's not even comparable.

Sure Gervin scored 29 points per game but he had a PER of 18.7 and a TS% of 51.1 in the play-offs. Jordan also averaged 29 points but with a 24.7 PER and 56.5 TS%.

The regular season is much closer but arguing for Gervin over MJ there is already questionable, while the play-offs gap is so gigantic that you must be trolling at this point.

Yeah, because analyzing via PER and TS% is the only thing that matters. Who cares that Gervin did all these things while leading 3rd best offense in the league (1985 Bulls were 11th in the league)?

If you want to rave about first round exit, then I can choose 1981 Gervin who played well in more competitive series than Jordan against the Bucks when Bulls weren't comeptitive at all.


You were talking about Gervin having a great scoring season. How in the world are PER and TS% irrelevant to that?

1981 Gervin had a 0.6 BPM in the play-offs. You're not even trying at this point. That's barely starter level, let alone anywhere near MJ.

I'm not a fan of looking at good performances in first round or uneventful second round exits and claiming they're better than deep runs. Neither MJ or Gervin had deep runs in these seasons though but MJ played great in the few games he did play, while Gervin didn't do the same. How is this difficult to understand?

Tell me why Gervin had weak BPM then. Explain me what these stats measure, because Gervin didn't struggle to score well in 1981 playoffs. Why did Gervin have better BPM in 1982 than in 1981 despite scoring far worse?

And again, Jordan padded his stats on terrible team which didn't have any chances in playoffs. Gervin led one of the best offensive teams in the league - his scoring had significant impact. Do you want to tell me that Devin Booker is better than Gervin as well?
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Re: All-NBA Teams Project: 1981-85 All-NBA Second Team 

Post#7 » by 70sFan » Wed Nov 18, 2020 12:37 pm

SinceGatlingWasARookie wrote:Videos
Legendary game 5 of 1984 Pistons vs Knicks
I assume most of you have seen this game
Isiah scores 16 points in the final 94 seconds to force overtime but King scores 44 points and the Knicks win

The other video is game 6 of 1984 Celtics vs Knicks
King scores 44 points. Celtics already saw King score 43 in game 4 so it isn't like they don't understand what they are dealing with. Bird scores 35


Spoiler:
Game 5 Pistons vs Knicks


Game 6 Celtics vs Knicks



1984 Pistons knicks game 5
Isiah, 16 points in 94 seconds to force overtime
Bernard 44 points, 12 rebounds to win the game and series "while having the flu and both middle fingers dislocated." Sparrow one for 11, Williams 7 for 22
King vs Pistons W 36, L 46, W 46, L 41, W 44,
Knicks back court shoots FG 37.6%

King vs Celtis L 26, L 13, W 24, W 43, L 30, W 44, L 24
Game 1 Knicks are not ready to play. Gave all they had vs Pistons.
Down 64 to 44 at half time.
Knicks shoot 40%, Celtics 54% Knicks other than King shoot 31%
Game 2 King scores 13 shoots 31%
Game 3 I think the Celtics give this game to the Knicks
Game 4 Knicks win, King 43 at FG 68%
Game 5 Knicks lose, 30 points at FG 53% for King isn't good enough
Game 6 King 44 FG 64% TS 70%, Knicks only win by 2. The Celtics take 20 more shots than the Knicks.
Game 7 King 24 at TS 56% isn't good enough. Celtics are shooting TS 58.5%
Bird scores 39 at TS 67%

Knick back court shoots 44% vs


King was just way too quick for the Celtics. Boston had very strong interior defense, but they lacked a good SF who could contest King's midrange shots and run with him on the break. They had Maxwell who declined from a few years before and McHale who wasn't quick enough.

What I like in King's game is that he didn't try to make things complicated - he tried to shoot the ball as quickly as he got it. Despite large usage, King wasn't turnover prone at all which is fantastic. He was also very efficient for a midrange shooter, but a lot of his work came from very close range (which isn't bad thing at all either). He also run the break extremely well.

What I don't like in his game is his completely lack of creation and/or gravity. When you have someone like Gervin, he shot from anywhere and gave his team spacing and off-ball gravity. Dantley wasn't elite creator either, but he was better passer. King was a scorer and that's it. That's why he never lead his team to any notable success on that end (though he didn't have much help to be honest either).

Even his remarkable scoring run in 1984 playoffs didn't lead to elite offensive results - only +0.9 offense despite this enormous scoring production. Neither did Dantley's production to be honest, but that's why I have both below Johnson who was much more well-rounded player.
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Re: All-NBA Teams Project: 1981-85 All-NBA Second Team 

Post#8 » by SinceGatlingWasARookie » Wed Nov 18, 2020 12:55 pm

Celtics still had Maxwell. Maxwell was the guy that gurded Erving respectably. Maxwell is the guy who will slow down Magic in the 2nd half of finals game 7. Though McHale also did a decent job on Erving. McHale would be even better against small forwards in 1986. I can see minimizing Kin'gs scoring against the Pistons because It was Tripuca guarding him but really you needed a team to guard King.

Nobody was going to have sucess gurding King. Even Cooper and Pressey were not going to get the job done.
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Re: All-NBA Teams Project: 1981-85 All-NBA Second Team 

Post#9 » by SinceGatlingWasARookie » Wed Nov 18, 2020 1:50 pm

My votes:

G: 1984/85 Isiah Thomas
G: 1981/82 George Gervin
F: 1983/84 Adrian Dantley
F: 1983/84 Bernard King
C: 1980/81 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar



Erving got 3 of the 5 non-Bird NBA 1st team selections for forward in this time period and Bernard King got the other 2 first team selections. King deserved them. In my opinion with Bird and Erving selected, King's only remaining competition is Dantley. I think King's type of offense is better than Dantley's for the team offense.


The forgotten superstar, Bernard King
Same comparison of small forwards that I put in the last thread.

Spoiler:
1st team all NBA with the 1984 Knicks
1st team all NBA with the 1985 Knicks despite only playing 55 games for a badly losing team that had lost 3 starters and their 6th man to injuries by 2 games into the season.
2nd team all NBA in 1982 with the Warriors.

In this 5 year period Bird got five 1st teams. The unspeakable heresy that I am suggesting is that Bernard King was better than Doctor J and all the other forwards. Dr J got 3 first teams and one 2nd team. Dantley got two 2nd teams. Alex English got two second teams. Terry Cummings, Ralph Sampson, Buck Williams and Marques Johnson got the other 2nd team votes.

1984 King took the champion Celtics to 7 games despite Ray Williams shooting the Knicks out of games and Bird having one of his best playoff series. Celtics were my home team so King's amazingness is burned into my brain. Cartwright provided a little offensive help but the Knicks offense aside from King was weak. King was even better vs the Pistons.

Bernard King 1984 playoffs, 12 games, 34.8 ppg, FG 57.4%, EFG 57.4%, TS 62%
Only Kareem and Bernard King have had a playoff season of 6 or more games during which they scored 33 or more points per game at 55 or better percent FG%. Using EFG% or TS% doesn't change this

Only 1964 Wilt, 2009, 2017 2018 LeBron, 2019 Durant and 1988 Hakeem (4 games) got close to those numbers. 1984 Dantley gets close using True shooting rather than FG%
Jordan gets kind of close a few times.
West, Alex English and Shaq got closer than the remaining people.
Bird, Kobe, Wilkins, Robinson, Oscar and Carmelo never got close to those numbers.

King, 1984 Regular season 26.3 ppg, FG 57.2% , EFG 57.2% TS 61.9%
2.1 assists, 2.6 turnovers, 5.1 rebounds, 1 steal
King, 1985 regular season 32.9 ppg, FG 53.4% EFG 53.1% TS 58.5%
3.7 assists, 3.7 turnovers, 5.8 rebounds, 1.3 steals
King 1984 playoffs 12 games, 34.8 ppg, FG 57.4%, EFG 57.4%, TS 62%
3 assists, 2.6 turnovers, 6.2 rebounds, 1.2 steals, 0.5 blocks

1980 Erving regular season, 26.9 ppg, FG 51.9%, EFG, 52% , TS 56.9%
4.6 assists, 3.6 turnovers, 7.2 rebounds, 2.8 steals, 1.8 blocks
1980 Erving playoffs, 24.4 ppg, FG 48.8%, EFG 49.1%, TS 55.3%
4.4 assists, 3.1 turnovers, 7.6 rebounds, 2 steals, 2.1 blocks

1982 Erving regular season 24.4 ppg, FG 54.6%, EFG 54.7% , TS 59.3%
3.9 assists, 2.6 turnovers, 6.9 rebounds 2 steals 1.7 blocks
1982 Erving playoffs, 22 ppg, FG 51.9%, EFG 52% TS 58.1%
4.7 assists, 3.2 turnovers, 7.4 rebounds, 1.8 steals, 1.8 blocks

1983 Dantley regular season, 30.7 ppg, FG 58% EFG 58% TS 66.1%
4.8 assists, 3.7 turnovers, 6.4 rebounds, 0.9 steals
No playoffs
1984 Dantley regular season, 30.6 ppg, FG 55.8%, EFG 55.8% TS 65.2
3.9 assists, 3.3 turnovers, 5.7 rebounds, 0.8 steals
1984 Dantley playoffs 11 games, 32.2 ppg, FG 50.4%, EFG 50.4% TS 60.4
4.2 assists, 3.5 turnovers, 7.5 rebounds, 0.9 steals

Alex English 1984 regular season, 26.4 ppg, FG 52.9%, EFG 52.9% , TS 57%
5 assists, 2.7 turnovers, 5.7 rebounds, 1 steal, 1.2 blocks
Alex English 1984 playoffs 5 games, 29 ppg, FG 58.8%, EFG 58.8% TS 63.4
5.6 assists, 3.4 turnovers, 8 rebounds, 0.6 steals, 0.4 blocks

Alex English 1983 regular season 28.4 at TS 56.1% playoffs 25.9 ppg at TS 52.2%
Alex English 1985 regular season 27.9 at TS 56.1% playoffs 14 games, 30..2 ppg at TS 60.1
1984 Aguirre, 29.5 ppg, TS 57%. playoffs 22 ppg, TS 53%

Why were the the 1985 Knicks so bad?
The 1985 team lost 5 all of their 1984 big men to injury / retirement. That left them with Louis Orr who had played 9 minutes a game at power forward and 12 minutes a game at small forward in 1984. For the 1985 team they added Pat Cummings who was mediocre and 3 guys from the discard pile. Cummings played 63 games. They also lost starting guard Ray Williams to drugs and or injury.

1985 Knicks with King 19 wins 36 losses
Without King 5 wins 22 losses



Videos
Legendary game 5 of 1984 Pistons vs Knicks
I assume most of you have seen this game
Isiah scores 16 points in the final 94 seconds to force overtime but King scores 44 points and the Knicks win

The other video is game 6 of 1984 Celtics vs Knicks
King scores 44 points. Celtics already saw King score 43 in game 4 sto it isn't like they don't understand what they are dealing with. Bird scores 35


Spoiler:
Game 5 Pistons vs Knicks


Game 6 Celtics vs Knicks



1984 Pistons knicks game 5
Isiah, 16 points in 94 seconds to force overtime
Bernard 44 points, 12 rebounds to win the game and series "while having the flu and both middle fingers dislocated." Sparrow one for 11, Williams 7 for 22
King vs Pistons W 36, L 46, W 46, L 41, W 44,
Knicks back court shoots FG 37.6%

King vs Celtis L 26, L 13, W 24, W 43, L 30, W 44, L 24
Game 1 Knicks are not ready to play. Gave all they had vs Pistons.
Down 64 to 44 at half time.
Knicks shoot 40%, Celtics 54% Knicks other than King shoot 31%
Game 2 King scores 13 shoots 31%
Game 3 I think the Celtics give this game to the Knicks
Game 4 Knicks win, King 43 at FG 68%
Game 5 Knicks lose, 30 points at FG 53% for King isn't good enough
Game 6 King 44 FG 64% TS 70%, Knicks only win by 2. The Celtics take 20 more shots than the Knicks.
Game 7 King 24 at TS 56% isn't good enough. Celtics are shooting TS 58.5%
Bird scores 39 at TS 67%

Knick back court shoots 44% vs the Celtics


Marques Johnson was not even on my list of small forwards. I have doubts that peak Johnson was even better than peak Cummings who also did not make my list.
Marques Johnson, Cummings, English and Aguirre and anybody I may be over looking is a question for third team as far as I am concerned.

Pre post edit:. I checked the stats. Marques Johnson got one last elite season in in 1981 before dropping out of the top level. I knew Cummings was good and that the Bucks won the Cummings for Johnson trade, but Cummings stats say he was even better than I rememberred. Cummings is worthy of being in the discussion with the other top forwards.

Jabbar is the center.
3rd team center, Parish vs Gilmore, Ruland vs Eaton vs Sikma, vs, Issel, vs Lanier vs Walton vs Hakeem vs Sampson. Am I missing anybody that has any worthy of being considerred?

I voted for Moncrief in the last round but rookie Jordan had a case against Moncrief.
Rookie Jordan makes defensive mistakes but rookie Jordan also makes defensive plays that others can't make. He is Jordan don'tcha know..

This is the last time I don't vote for Jordan. Voting for Isiah and Gervin over rookie Jordan might be wrong.

Gervin had that lovely scoring but when you use True shooting percentage Jordan is there with him. What were Gervins's good defensive years? The Spurs were like a defensive yoyo, good to bad to good to bad. Gervin was part of that. Even if Gervin tried (and he didn't always try) At some point in the early 1980s he loses his defensive ability. I would like Isiah's shooting percentage to be a little higher but he is creating for others.
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Re: All-NBA Teams Project: 1981-85 All-NBA Second Team 

Post#10 » by 70sFan » Wed Nov 18, 2020 4:36 pm

SinceGatlingWasARookie wrote:Celtics still had Maxwell. Maxwell was the guy that gurded Erving respectably. Though McHale also did a decent job on Erving. McHale would be even better against small forwards in 1986. I can see minimizing Kin'gs scoring against the Pistons because It was Tripuca guarding him but really you needed a team to guard King.

Nobody was going to have sucess gurding King. Even Cooper and Pressey were not going to get the job done.

Yeah, I agree - you need a team effort to stop someone like King.

Here are King and Dantley numbers against 1983-85 Bucks by the way:

1983-85 King (12 games): 21.8 ppg, 3.4 apg, 3.5 tov on 50.5 FG%, 81.4 FT% and 64.7 TS%
1983-85 Dantley (4 games): 33.5 ppg, 3.3 apg, 2.5 tov on 57.7 FG%, 89.7 FT% and 69.4 TS%
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Re: All-NBA Teams Project: 1981-85 All-NBA Second Team 

Post#11 » by 70sFan » Wed Nov 18, 2020 7:40 pm

SinceGatlingWasARookie wrote:Marques Johnson was not even on my list of small forwards. I have doubts that peak Johnson was even better than peak Cummings who also did not make my list.


Marques was much better defender than the rest and he's better playmaker as well. He was also better rebounder, just better all-around player period.

Not to mention that he was co-leader of these strong Bucks teams so he didn't post huge numbers on mediocre teams like Dantley and King did. Cummings was weaker scorer and less versatile player than 1981 Johnson.
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Re: All-NBA Teams Project: 1981-85 All-NBA Second Team 

Post#12 » by HeartBreakKid » Wed Nov 18, 2020 8:06 pm

G: 1985 Isiah Thomas - He had anchored the best offense in the league just the season before. 14 assist with a good 21 points to go - can't get much better than that. He's the 2nd best offensive guard behind Magic during this period.

G: 1981 George Gervin - I'll go with this version since he didn't shoot as well in 1982, though he did lead the playoffs in scoring.

So as for Gervin vs Jordan. Jordan does have higher boxscore stats, and he does volume score on better efficiency than George Gervin. One has to acknowledge that Jordan largely cannibalized his teams offense. He was overly ball dominant, and he's not a real point guard so while he can make plays and rack up assist he could not be a floor general at that point. This is why his offense is not going to be as good as an Isiah Thomas lead offense or any other all time great point guard (except for someone like Kidd who was a sick floor general but had scoring decencies).

George Gervin really did not play like a shooting guard in all honesty. He played like a forward. There is no difference in how he plays his offense when he switches from SG to SF - he's not much of a ball handler for an all time great scorer, but in some regards this is a strength because he is an excellent off ball player. His off ball play is why he is a better offensive player than Jordan at this time - Gervin can just fit in with an offense much better. Jordan at this time was still learning the ropes, and wouldn't really learn team basketball for a while. Jordan really became an all time off ball player when he bought into what Phil Jackson was selling.

So Jordan doesn't have much impact if he is not directly involved in the score (via point or assist). As for defense, I really am not sure who is a better defender - I don't find it relevant at this point. Michael Jordan was not a very good defender though his rookie year - he does have steals and blocks which people will overrate but that's just because he's a freak athlete not because people are having a hard time scoring when he was around.

F: 1985 Kevin McHale - I think everyone kind of knows Kevin was basically not stoppable when he was given the ball. His sample size of success is very large. You can validly criticize that Kevin played with a very talented team that made his life way easier. This is certainly true, but we do see in the 1989 season when Bird missed almost the entire season that Kevin puts up 22 ppg on 60 TS - so there is little doubt in my mind that 27 year old Kevin cannot replicate the same thing. Kevin was also a bit of an underrated rebounder playing next to Parish. But even with that in mind, 20 PPG or so on 60 TS is great, but it's clear that there are better scorers to pick from - what gives him the edge is that Kevin in his younger years was a really stellar defender. A lot of his competition at this spot are not good defenders, and are rather one dimensional - a few cannot even strongly take advantage of Kevin's poor passing. So largely Kevin's defense kind of seals the deal for me here, plus I personally find him to be a really good offball player in terms of getting you a good mid range J or of course fighting for great position. He does not need to cannibalize an offense to get his.

F: 1985 Alex English - This is largely between English vs King for me.

Bernard is probably the best scorer during this 5 year stretch. His playoff run really does seal the deal though - most carry jobs are exaggerations, but this one really was him just playing like a God and boosting his team up a tier above than what it normally is. He was able to out gun the #1 offense Detroit Pistons and then nearly upset the #3 rated defense in the Boston Celtics (and eventual champs). Bernard dropped 29 points on 60% despite Boston knowing full well he's the only serious threat on his team. He ended his post season run leading the playoffs with about 35 points on 62 TS%.

Alex English went on a great run himself, and put up 30 points on 63 TS% against the #1 rated defense, Utah Jazz. He also coincidentally went toe to toe and matched with another forward competitor in Dantley. Alex ended Western Conference Final run with 30 points, 4.5 assist, 2.1 turnovers (insanity), on 60 TS%.

Now one might say, hey, Alex English had a really great team - and he did. Issel, Lever, Natt were studs. But one also has to acknowledge that Alex English has a style that is incredibly friendly to playing with talent. He is a great catch and shooter, he can create his own shot without wasting a lot of dribbles, he runs with his team. Bernard King is a very iso heavy type of player, even if he had much better offensive teammates his style would eventually hit diminishing returns.

Outside of scoring Alex English was a more versatile player. He was a better passer and kept the ball moving without wasting everyone's time with dribbles (probably why his turnovers are so low). Bernard King in his peak season put up 2 assist per game during the RS, that is pitiful for a small forward.

Finally, Bernard was a really bad defender. Alex English, while not a juggernaut on that end did play defense - the gap in their defense is certainly not negligible.

So again, a common theme this round is me taking a lot of guys with perhaps less impressive combinations of PPG/TS% in favor of being able to do more for your team or at scoring within the flow of an offense instead of pushing something that isn't really there.

C: 1981 Kareem Abdul-Jabar



EDIT: Changed my vote from Alex English to 81 Marques Johnson
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Re: All-NBA Teams Project: 1981-85 All-NBA Second Team 

Post#13 » by 70sFan » Wed Nov 18, 2020 8:24 pm

This era is stacked for forward postition. One of McHale/King/Dantley/Marques/English won't make it...
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Re: All-NBA Teams Project: 1981-85 All-NBA Second Team 

Post#14 » by SinceGatlingWasARookie » Wed Nov 18, 2020 8:51 pm

70sFan wrote:X

King, Dantley,
Maxwell
Guys that shoot before the double or sag vs guys that play against the double or sag.
And is the scorer supposed to provide the spacing or benefit from the spacing.
Gravity.


Spoiler:
70sFan wrote:
King was just way too quick for the Celtics. Boston had very strong interior defense, but they lacked a good SF who could contest King's midrange shots and run with him on the break. They had Maxwell who declined from a few years before and McHale who wasn't quick enough.

Maxwell had a lot of passive games after the 1980-81 season but not when it mattered. 1984-85 is when Maxwell really declined. There is a whole drama arround this. http://lexnihilnovi.blogspot.com/2007/11/max-quit-playing-long-before-1985.html?m=1


70sFan wrote:What I like in King's game is that he didn't try to make things complicated - he tried to shoot the ball as quickly as he got it. Despite large usage, King wasn't turnover prone at all which is fantastic. He was also very efficient for a midrange shooter, but a lot of his work came from very close range (which isn't bad thing at all either). He also run the break extremely well.


70sFan wrote:What I don't like in his game is his completely lack of creation and/or gravity. When you have someone like Gervin, he shot from anywhere and gave his team spacing and off-ball gravity. Dantley wasn't elite creator either, but he was better passer. King was a scorer and that's it. That's why he never lead his team to any notable success on that end (though he didn't have much help to be honest either).

The Knicks back court isn't hitting shots well enough to keep their defenders honest. Of course without having modern 3 point shooting shooting no team back then could have modern spacing

Dantley might be a better passer than King but it is hard to be a great passer when you don't have the ball. Draymond Green does well with quick passing. Draymond gets a lot of touches but not much time of possession. King is no Draymond level passer but whenever King gets the ball he sees a shot he can hit. Draymond's teammates move intelligently without the ball and they can make shots. Who is King supposed to pass to?

Cartwright isn't JaVale McGee that slashes through the paint. Feeding Cartwright in the post is the point guard's job.

The only guy I have ever really seen have gravity off the ball is Curry. Klay and Miller create havoc in defenses by running around screens and getting defensive assignments messed up. But that isn't gravity.

Defenders do have to keep an eye on where King is but King did not use set screens like Klay and Miller. Bird and King often found naturally occurring screens that are not set by anybody.

If a great scorer holds the ball long enough for the double team to come then he can pass to an open man. If the scorer is beating the double team I suppose that is more impressive than scoring before the double team arrives.

RealGMers are always asking how would this guy or that guy from the past do today. He didn't have a 3 point shot. My answer is that every past scorer would do better on offense today while surrounded by 3 point shooters. Sam Jones baseline bank shot would be more lethal if he was surrounded by 3 point shooters. Should I knock King for not creating space for Cartwright? The other guys are barely worth creating space for them. Truck's game had declined. Tucker is the only guy on the team creating space from deep 2s. The space King created was more about making guys look at him and take there eye off their man than it was drawing defenders away from the basket.

Even Gervin wasn't creating space like modern shooters do.

I like that King doesn't disrupt the rest of the offense but that offense was so weak that maybe disrupting it would be OK. I considered a plus that King shot before the defense rotated to him but if a player can score as well as King despite the defense sagging towards them then having the defense sag may be more disruptive. If the defense sags towards the paint that isn't very disruptive if the team can't hit outside shots.


70sFan wrote:Even his remarkable scoring run in 1984 playoffs didn't lead to elite offensive results - only +0.9 offense despite this enormous scoring production. Neither did Dantley's production to be honest, but that's why I have both below Johnson who was much more well-rounded player.


With Ray Williams shooting horribly most nights and Truck no longer being a threat I think Dantley was playing on a stronger offense despite Eaton not being useful. I noticed that with Drew and Dantley out in 1983 Jeff Wilkins seemed to become a decent second option. 1984 had Rookie Thurl Bailey who was pretty good. And then there is Griffith. I prefer Ricky Green as the point guard to messed up Ray Williams and functional Rory Sparrow.

Marques Johnson and English and Aguirre and Cummings had good offensive teammates. It is hard to keep shooting percentages good without good offensive teammates.
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Re: All-NBA Teams Project: 1981-85 All-NBA Second Team 

Post#15 » by SinceGatlingWasARookie » Wed Nov 18, 2020 9:08 pm

70sFan wrote:
SinceGatlingWasARookie wrote:Marques Johnson was not even on my list of small forwards. I have doubts that peak Johnson was even better than peak Cummings who also did not make my list.


Marques was much better defender than the rest and he's better playmaker as well. He was also better rebounder, just better all-around player period.

Not to mention that he was co-leader of these strong Bucks teams so he didn't post huge numbers on mediocre teams like Dantley and King did. Cummings was weaker scorer and less versatile player than 1981 Johnson.

Cummings wasn't a weaker scorer than 1981 Johnson particularly in the playoffs. He was less versatile.

Despite 1983 and my Celtic centric view of the world I don't think 1980s Marques Johnson was a particularly good defender. Other years Bird torched Marques Johnson. Marques Johnson didn't seem to have any effect on Dr J.

My knowledge gets much weaker in the 1970s. Maybe Johnson was a better defender in the 1970s. My knowledge also gets weaker when the Celtics and 76ers are not inolved.
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Re: All-NBA Teams Project: 1981-85 All-NBA Second Team 

Post#16 » by Odinn21 » Wed Nov 18, 2020 10:28 pm

C: 1981 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Obvious choice.

F: 1984 Bernard King
F: 1984 Adrian Dantley

I just don't see Marques Johnson's or Kevin McHale's case over these two in this time frame. Johnson and McHale were better defenders than my 2 F picks. Johnson was also a better playmaker and passer, and McHale was better at grabbing boards. But the impact of sheer scoring volume of King and Dantley (and probably English as well) was still unmatched by Johnson and McHale.
Don't get me wrong, I definitely see the appeal of Johnson and McHale, they were insane 1b type complementary pieces. But their performances were on the same level as King and Dantley.

I think I'm going to have Marques Johnson and Alex English on my 3rd team at F positions.

G: 1982 Gus Williams
He was my 1st team selection already.
Though I should note that, even though Williams was my 1st team choice - the player with the certain spot for this team was Isiah Thomas and it boiled down between Gus Williams and George Gervin for the 2nd G spot.

G: 1985 Isiah Thomas
Obvious choice.
The issue with per75 numbers;
36pts on 27 fga/9 fta in 36 mins, does this mean he'd keep up the efficiency to get 48pts on 36fga/12fta in 48 mins?
The answer; NO. He's human, not a linearly working machine.
Per75 is efficiency rate, not actual production.
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Re: All-NBA Teams Project: 1981-85 All-NBA Second Team 

Post#17 » by SinceGatlingWasARookie » Thu Nov 19, 2020 1:11 am

HeartBreakKid wrote:. Jordan at this time was still learning the ropes, and wouldn't really learn team basketball for a while. Jordan really became an all time off ball player when he bought into what Phil Jackson was selling.

So Jordan doesn't have much impact if he is not directly involved in the score (via point or assist). As for defense, I really am not sure who is a better defender - I don't find it relevant at this point. Michael Jordan was not a very good defender though his rookie year - he does have steals and blocks which people will overrate but that's just because he's a freak athlete not because people are having a hard time scoring when he was on defense


Some "facts" are really legend like Moses beating up on Kareem in 1981. It was true for one game.

Another legend is that Phil Jackson and Tex Winter taught Jordan team basketball. Bird and Magic fans embraced the story of Jordan not being a winner or team player. If Jordan was not defective then the whole argument of the previous years between Bird and Magic fans about which one of them is the GOAT becomes a non issues if Jordan was better than them. Magic and Bird fans were as petty as Kobe and LeBron fans.

One of the reasons I guessed wrong about how good Jordan would be when he was drafted is because Dean Smith had Jordan playing team basketball and that was hiding just how talented Jordan was. Of course what I just said could be another legend.

But, I posted a Bucks Vs Bulls playoff game. You can see Jordan make plays with his defense. Jordan was never dumb. He never had a low basketball IQ but he was a rookie. Jordan never had a Bird level basketball IQ but he had a very good basketball IQ and very good reactions.

As rookie in the playoff game I just watched Jordan was the point guard for half of the time that he was on the floor. Ennis Whatley and Quinton Dailey split time in a 3 guard rotation with Jordan. When Whatley sat Jordan was the point guard. Jordan looked better as a rookie point guard than all but the best guys like rookie Chris Paul looked. Jordan got 8.5 assists a game.

In no way did Jordan cannibalise the offense.

The Bucks were the 3rd best team in basketball in 1984 until the 76ers proved otherwise. The Bulls won a game and had no double digit losses. The Bulls 8 man rotation only had two players that had ever been in a playoff game. Corzine and Greenwood who played in one playoff series. The Bulls did well.

The Bulls defense stunk in the regular season but they did Not look that bad in the game I watched. Sure it was more about athleticism than sophistication but that is normal for a young team. Why should we have a bias for smart defense over athletic defense? Traditionally the bias problem is in the other direction but at RealGM we might might be overcompensating against the normal biasses of the casual fan.

I care about the total effect of Jordan's defense rather than whether you Jordan had more athleticism than basketball sophistication.

I saw rookie Jordan having a defensive impact. There were times when I did not see Jordan doing anything or rotating or clogging holes but I am not sure if that was because Jordan was failing to do something or because the game was fast and I was watching on an Ipad.

The Bucks vs Bulls game was a lot more frantic than the Suns Jazz game I watched also from 1984. My 1984 East coast peers had felt that the western conference style was not aggressive enough and the Suns Jazz game sort of backed up that idea. Of course overplaying everything creates opportunities but not attacking allows the opposition to methodically pick apart the cautious defensive team.

I don't blame 1987 Jordan for calling his own number on offense because the 1987 Bulls had Jordan's weakest offensive teammates.

In part of 1989 Jordan was the point guard again and he also looked good as a point guard then.

I am not trusting the idea that young Jordan was a bad defender or bad for team offense. Partly due to politics and click bait media I am more focussed on false legends than I was 5 years ago. I won't swear that I am right about young Jordan but what I think I have seen is not fitting with the legend of defective young Jordan.
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Re: All-NBA Teams Project: 1981-85 All-NBA Second Team 

Post#18 » by VanWest82 » Thu Nov 19, 2020 1:32 am

I think even Sidney Moncrief would take rookie MJ over Sidney Moncrief. I assume players aren't penalized for only playing one season in the chosen time bracket.

Edit: rookie MJ also had a (slightly) better game score in their first round match up FWIW
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Re: All-NBA Teams Project: 1981-85 All-NBA Second Team 

Post#19 » by SinceGatlingWasARookie » Thu Nov 19, 2020 3:21 am

VanWest82 wrote:I think even Sidney Moncrief would take rookie MJ over Sidney Moncrief. I assume players aren't penalized for only playing one season in the chosen time bracket.

Edit: rookie MJ also had a (slightly) better game score in their first round match up FWIW

One season is enough. If Rookie Jordan was better than peak Moncrief then Rookie Jordan should get the vote. But Rookies always have flawed games. Could Rookie Jordan really be better than peak Moncrief? Then there are those who say they know that Jordan's defense and maybe his team offense was too flawed for rookie Jordan to have been better than the best versions Moncrief, Isiah or 1980s Gervin. I am on the fence.
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Re: All-NBA Teams Project: 1981-85 All-NBA Second Team 

Post#20 » by VanWest82 » Thu Nov 19, 2020 3:42 am

SinceGatlingWasARookie wrote:
VanWest82 wrote:I think even Sidney Moncrief would take rookie MJ over Sidney Moncrief. I assume players aren't penalized for only playing one season in the chosen time bracket.

Edit: rookie MJ also had a (slightly) better game score in their first round match up FWIW

One season is enough. If Rookie Jordan was better than peak Moncrief then Rookie Jordan should get the vote. But Rookies always have flawed games. Could Rookie Jordan really be better than peak Moncrief? Then there are those who say they know that Jordan's defense and maybe his team offense was too flawed for rookie Jordan to have been better than the best versions Moncrief, Isiah or 1980s Gervin. I am on the fence.


Rookie MJ was an MVP candidate. Full stop. Yes his game was flawed - his game always had flaws - but the good outweighed the bad so disproportionately that it's inconsequential. MJ finished ahead of Moncrief in MVP voting that year despite rookie bias. Know who else finished ahead? Terry Cummings, Sidney's teammate.

MJ was the GOAT rookie. It's only because he was a rookie that fans use whatever biases to hold his 84/85 season back in these kinds of discussions. It was apparent within the first few months that Jordan was already likely the best player in the league.

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