All-NBA Teams Project: 1981-85 All-NBA Second Team

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Re: All-NBA Teams Project: 1981-85 All-NBA Second Team 

Post#41 » by SinceGatlingWasARookie » Fri Nov 20, 2020 12:53 am

Vs the 1983 76ers and Erving, King has better results offensively and defensively as measured by Erving's results than Marques Johnson has.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/1983-nba-eastern-conference-semifinals-knicks-vs-76ers.html

https://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/1983-nba-eastern-conference-finals-bucks-vs-76ers.html
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Re: All-NBA Teams Project: 1981-85 All-NBA Second Team 

Post#42 » by Jordan Syndrome » Fri Nov 20, 2020 1:06 am

G: 1984/85 Isiah Thomas
G: 1981/81 George Gervin
F: 1983/84 Adrian Dantley
F: 1981/82 Alex English
C: 1980/81 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar


Not a fan of Rookie Jordan and I believe Isiah was better than him until 1988. The early 80s was a weird era, not a lot of defense and the league was dominated by Small Forwards who could score and not do a ton more at an elite level (minus Bird). I thought English was the best of the bunch at playmaking (Over Kiki and King), McHale's defense isn't enough to put him over the rest (Though I will consider McHale during the 3rd team but I doubt he makes it over Kiki/King for me). Kareem I had on the first team and changed years after watching games 1 and 3.
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Re: All-NBA Teams Project: 1981-85 All-NBA Second Team 

Post#43 » by DNice68 » Fri Nov 20, 2020 1:09 am

70sFan wrote:
Odinn21 wrote:
70sFan wrote:I'm not happy with King over Marques at all, but I don't think Johnson will make this team (hell, he probably won't make 3rd team as well).

Why don't you like 1984 King? When we had a discussion, I thought we came over your reservations about King.
viewtopic.php?p=82893987

I like King and I have him neck and neck with Dantley - I just let my bias go ahead :D But more seriously, I think that Dantley had better RS than King and Dantley also played excellent in playoffs.

With Johnson vs King, I already said that I view Marques as Dr J-esque as he's much better all-around player than King/Dantley. He was better defender, better rebounder, better ball-handler, better passer... Basically better at everything other than scoring and Marques was very good scorer himself. It's not that I don't like King - I have Marques over Dantley as well here.

Marq was unreal during the late 70s early 80s. His poster was on Jordan's wall for a reason. Kevin McHale and Larry Bird always give him respect. Dr J. J said "he was the best all around forward he ever played". If he doesn't make the Hall in the next two years, I am picketing!
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Re: All-NBA Teams Project: 1981-85 All-NBA Second Team 

Post#44 » by LA Bird » Fri Nov 20, 2020 2:01 am

I suppose I am the only one wondering why Jordan's rookie offense is perceived as such a problem when there is a unanimous vote for 85 Isiah and his Pistons were 9th in ORtg compared to the Bulls' 11th. The Pistons were first in offense the previous season but nobody is taking 84 Isiah so if you are willing to value bigger stats over higher rORtg, why not go for 85 Jordan who had even better numbers and barely worse team offense than 85 Isiah? If Jordan wasn't the leading offensive rebounder on his team and had Laimbeer, the Bulls probably move into top 3-5 ORtg on rebounding alone. I would be concerned about rookie Jordan if he was putting up empty numbers on a <20 win team with a bottom 3 offense (ahem Devin Booker) but that is not the case here. A +0.8 offense with the amount of talent on the Bulls is not bad at all. 88 and 89 Jordan are regarded as GOAT level seasons and the Bulls offense in those two seasons were only +0.2 and +0.5 rORtg better than the 85 Bulls.
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Re: All-NBA Teams Project: 1981-85 All-NBA Second Team 

Post#45 » by SinceGatlingWasARookie » Fri Nov 20, 2020 3:43 am

Marques Johnson, Bernard King and Walter Davis were drafted the same year and got a Sports illustrated article about them being exciting rookie small forwards. Walter Davis got rookie of the year.
Marques had 10.5 rebounds a game as a rookie and Bernard King got 9 rebounds per game as a rookie. Their rebounding declined.

1981 Marques vs Bernard per game
FG 9 for 18, FT 4 for 5.5
6 rebounds, 6 assists, 3 turnovers, 2 steals

1981 Bernard vs Marques per game
FG 8 for 14.5, FT 4 for 5
8.5 rebounds, 4.5 Assists, 2 Turnovers, 0 steals
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Re: All-NBA Teams Project: 1981-85 All-NBA Second Team 

Post#46 » by DNice68 » Fri Nov 20, 2020 4:15 am

SinceGatlingWasARookie wrote:Marques Johnson, Bernard King and Walter Davis were drafted the same year and got a Sports illustrated article about them being exciting rookie small forwards. Walter Davis got rookie of the year.
Marques had 10.5 rebounds a game as a rookie and Bernard King got 9 rebounds a year as a rookie. Their rebounding declined.

1981 Marques vs Bernard per game
FG 9 for 18, FT 4 for 5.5
6 rebounds, 6 assists, 3 turnovers, 2 steals

1981 Bernard vs Marques per game
FG 8 for 14.5, FT 4 for 5
8.5 rebounds, 4.5 Assists, 2 Turnovers, 0 steals
SinceGatlingWasARookie wrote:Marques Johnson, Bernard King and Walter Davis were drafted the same year and got a Sports illustrated article about them being exciting rookie small forwards. Walter Davis got rookie of the year.
Marques had 10.5 rebounds a game as a rookie and Bernard King got 9 rebounds a year as a rookie. Their rebounding declined.

1981 Marques vs Bernard per game
FG 9 for 18, FT 4 for 5.5
6 rebounds, 6 assists, 3 turnovers, 2 steals

1981 Bernard vs Marques per game
FG 8 for 14.5, FT 4 for 5
8.5 rebounds, 4.5 Assists, 2 Turnovers, 0 steals

King and Johnson played more of a PF/SF role in their rookie years, so they were inside more. Davis played a straight small forward his rookie year, than he played straight up outside as a guard after that. Davis won that rookie of the year, but Marques showed him up in the playoff’s, especially game 2.
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Re: All-NBA Teams Project: 1981-85 All-NBA Second Team 

Post#47 » by Dutchball97 » Fri Nov 20, 2020 7:31 am

Guard: Michael Jordan, 1984/85 - I've been pretty clear on my reasoning so far. I view him as a top 3 performer in the regular season and while the short play-offs is disappointing, he did play well himself. The biggest thing is that I don't think Moncrief, IT or Gus Williams played well enough in the play-offs to make up that regular season difference.

Guard: Gus Williams, 1981/82 - I'm not a fan of the post-season performances of George Gervin post-1980. So this spot was between Gus and IT. I went with Gus because I'm more impressed at the quality of his season overall, even though IT might've had a slight play-offs advantage.

Forward: Bernard King, 1983/84 - I'm not the biggest King fan either but I can't seem to find a lot of things wrong with this season. He played half his total career play-off minutes in this one post-season run and if one of Bird/Dr J wasn't there I wouldn't even view King as a particularly weak 1st team option.

Forward: Marques Johnson, 1980/81 - Dantley and English were also options (not too high on McHale's seasons in this 5 year span and while Cummings isn't far off Dantley/English I doubt he'll get traction). I went with Marques mostly for two reasons. He's a very complete player and I think he had a pretty amazing play-offs.

Center: Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, 1984/85 - Kareem's best regular season available here is without a doubt 80/81 but his play-offs that season were a dud. 85 and 83 are better overall seasons imo.
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Re: All-NBA Teams Project: 1981-85 All-NBA Second Team 

Post#48 » by 70sFan » Fri Nov 20, 2020 9:06 am

SinceGatlingWasARookie wrote:Vs the 1983 76ers and Erving, King has better results offensively and defensively as measured by Erving's results than Marques Johnson has.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/1983-nba-eastern-conference-semifinals-knicks-vs-76ers.html

https://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/1983-nba-eastern-conference-finals-bucks-vs-76ers.html

In 1983 Marques was already past his peak - he had injury problems throughout 1981/82 season and he never came back the same (even though he was still a good player). 1983 King wasn't on his peak level either, but he was certainly closer than Marques.
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Re: All-NBA Teams Project: 1981-85 All-NBA Second Team 

Post#49 » by 70sFan » Fri Nov 20, 2020 9:09 am

Jordan Syndrome wrote:Kareem I had on the first team and changed years after watching games 1 and 3.

What are your thoughts about these games?
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Re: All-NBA Teams Project: 1981-85 All-NBA Second Team 

Post#50 » by 70sFan » Fri Nov 20, 2020 9:12 am

Dutchball97 wrote:Center: Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, 1984/85 - Kareem's best regular season available here is without a doubt 80/81 but his play-offs that season were a dud. 85 and 83 are better overall seasons imo.

I'd take 1983 Kareem over 1985 without thinking twice. He was a monster in playoffs while facing very tough competition - Moses and Gilmore were two best centers in the league. Once he didn't face such competition, he reached all-time level against Portland.

1985 is an amazing narrative for Kareem and I always defend this season as clear superstar level, but 1983 Jabbar was just better basketball player on both ends of the floor.
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Re: All-NBA Teams Project: 1981-85 All-NBA Second Team 

Post#51 » by Odinn21 » Fri Nov 20, 2020 9:17 am

70sFan wrote:In 1983 Marques was already past his peak - he had injury problems throughout 1981/82 season and he never came back the same (even though he was still a good player). 1983 King wasn't on his peak level either, but he was certainly closer than Marques.

I think you're putting too much stock into Marques' strengths over King and Dantley.

I certainly get you, don't get me wrong. I just think you're rewarding Marques' all-around value over King's and Dantley's performances. What I see in you is value vs. performance. Not that Marques lacked performance, but I see a clear gap between his performance and King's and Dantley's performances. A very clear gap.
The issue with per75 numbers;
36pts on 27 fga/9 fta in 36 mins, does this mean he'd keep up the efficiency to get 48pts on 36fga/12fta in 48 mins?
The answer; NO. He's human, not a linearly working machine.
Per75 is efficiency rate, not actual production.
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Re: All-NBA Teams Project: 1981-85 All-NBA Second Team 

Post#52 » by HeartBreakKid » Fri Nov 20, 2020 10:03 am

LA Bird wrote:I suppose I am the only one wondering why Jordan's rookie offense is perceived as such a problem when there is a unanimous vote for 85 Isiah and his Pistons were 9th in ORtg compared to the Bulls' 11th. The Pistons were first in offense the previous season but nobody is taking 84 Isiah so if you are willing to value bigger stats over higher rORtg, why not go for 85 Jordan who had even better numbers and barely worse team offense than 85 Isiah? If Jordan wasn't the leading offensive rebounder on his team and had Laimbeer, the Bulls probably move into top 3-5 ORtg on rebounding alone. I would be concerned about rookie Jordan if he was putting up empty numbers on a <20 win team with a bottom 3 offense (ahem Devin Booker) but that is not the case here. A +0.8 offense with the amount of talent on the Bulls is not bad at all. 88 and 89 Jordan are regarded as GOAT level seasons and the Bulls offense in those two seasons were only +0.2 and +0.5 rORtg better than the 85 Bulls.

You already said it, we already know Isiah Thomas can anchor the #1 offense in the league, so it's not like Detroit's offense falling off was his fault. There is more evidence for Thomas.
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Re: All-NBA Teams Project: 1981-85 All-NBA Second Team 

Post#53 » by 70sFan » Fri Nov 20, 2020 11:10 am

Official 1981-85 All-NBA Second Team

G: 1984/85 Isiah Thomas
G: 1981/82 George Gervin
F: 1983/84 Adrian Dantley
F: 1980/81 Marques Johnson
C: 1980/81 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar


Voting

Guards

Isiah Thomas 6
George Gervin 6
Gus Williams 2
Michael Jordan 2

Forwards

Adrian Dantley 5
Marques Johnson 5
Bernard King 4
Alex English 1
Kevin McHale 1

Centers

Kareem Abdul-Jabbar 8
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Re: All-NBA Teams Project: 1981-85 All-NBA Second Team 

Post#54 » by 70sFan » Fri Nov 20, 2020 11:17 am

What do you think about Walter Davis by the way? I'd consider 1984 Davis as 2nd guard behind Jordan in third team (though Gus was probably better).
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Re: All-NBA Teams Project: 1981-85 All-NBA Second Team 

Post#55 » by DNice68 » Fri Nov 20, 2020 6:55 pm

Guards: 84-85 Isiah Thomas
81-82 Gervin
Forwards: 83-84 Dantley
80-81 Johnson
Center: 80-81 Kareem

I’ll go with Johnson over King and English. They didn’t have a Don Nelson to tell them, your going to have your minutes and touches limited, play both sides of the ball, and bring the ball up in the offense as a forward. If Johnson played in Denver’s run and gun, he would have scored 30. He was versitle than English or King!
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Re: All-NBA Teams Project: 1981-85 All-NBA Second Team 

Post#56 » by clearlynotjesse » Fri Nov 20, 2020 7:28 pm

G: 1981-82 George Gervin
G: 1984-85 Michael Jordan


I'm iffy on Isiah. Of the Four Factors on offense, a lot of the Pistons' great ORtg is driven by great offensive rebounding, which Isiah plays a pretty minimal part in, and great turnover economy, which Isiah plays a big part in. The Pistons never had great eFG%. You normally see teams with elite offensive engines at the top of that list. To me, this indicates that Isiah's role was more about soaking up volume rather than really driving efficient offense. I think rookie Jordan's role was pretty similar, but the indicators you expect a lead guard to have an impact on look a little more favorable for the Bulls than the Pistons (relative to the team talent level). Maybe I'm reaching a bit, I dunno.

F: 1983-84 Bernard King
F: 1980-81 Marques Johnson


Marques is the top choice for me here, just has the whole package. I like King the best of the great scoring forwards. What's up with Dantley's team offenses? I know they didn't have the greatest talent, but those ratings are pretty rough. McHale is also great, just has less volume than the rest of the field.

C: 1980-81 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
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Re: All-NBA Teams Project: 1981-85 All-NBA Second Team 

Post#57 » by 70sFan » Fri Nov 20, 2020 7:44 pm

clearlynotjesse wrote:What's up with Dantley's team offenses? I know they didn't have the greatest talent, but those ratings are pretty rough.


King's team offenses aren't better at all.
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Re: All-NBA Teams Project: 1981-85 All-NBA Second Team 

Post#58 » by HeartBreakKid » Fri Nov 20, 2020 11:32 pm

HeartBreakKid wrote:G: 1985 Isiah Thomas - He had anchored the best offense in the league just the season before. 14 assist with a good 21 points to go - can't get much better than that. He's the 2nd best offensive guard behind Magic during this period.

G: 1981 George Gervin - I'll go with this version since he didn't shoot as well in 1982, though he did lead the playoffs in scoring.

So as for Gervin vs Jordan. Jordan does have higher boxscore stats, and he does volume score on better efficiency than George Gervin. One has to acknowledge that Jordan largely cannibalized his teams offense. He was overly ball dominant, and he's not a real point guard so while he can make plays and rack up assist he could not be a floor general at that point. This is why his offense is not going to be as good as an Isiah Thomas lead offense or any other all time great point guard (except for someone like Kidd who was a sick floor general but had scoring decencies).

George Gervin really did not play like a shooting guard in all honesty. He played like a forward. There is no difference in how he plays his offense when he switches from SG to SF - he's not much of a ball handler for an all time great scorer, but in some regards this is a strength because he is an excellent off ball player. His off ball play is why he is a better offensive player than Jordan at this time - Gervin can just fit in with an offense much better. Jordan at this time was still learning the ropes, and wouldn't really learn team basketball for a while. Jordan really became an all time off ball player when he bought into what Phil Jackson was selling.

So Jordan doesn't have much impact if he is not directly involved in the score (via point or assist). As for defense, I really am not sure who is a better defender - I don't find it relevant at this point. Michael Jordan was not a very good defender though his rookie year - he does have steals and blocks which people will overrate but that's just because he's a freak athlete not because people are having a hard time scoring when he was around.

F: 1985 Kevin McHale - I think everyone kind of knows Kevin was basically not stoppable when he was given the ball. His sample size of success is very large. You can validly criticize that Kevin played with a very talented team that made his life way easier. This is certainly true, but we do see in the 1989 season when Bird missed almost the entire season that Kevin puts up 22 ppg on 60 TS - so there is little doubt in my mind that 27 year old Kevin cannot replicate the same thing. Kevin was also a bit of an underrated rebounder playing next to Parish. But even with that in mind, 20 PPG or so on 60 TS is great, but it's clear that there are better scorers to pick from - what gives him the edge is that Kevin in his younger years was a really stellar defender. A lot of his competition at this spot are not good defenders, and are rather one dimensional - a few cannot even strongly take advantage of Kevin's poor passing. So largely Kevin's defense kind of seals the deal for me here, plus I personally find him to be a really good offball player in terms of getting you a good mid range J or of course fighting for great position. He does not need to cannibalize an offense to get his.

F: 1985 Alex English - This is largely between English vs King for me.

Bernard is probably the best scorer during this 5 year stretch. His playoff run really does seal the deal though - most carry jobs are exaggerations, but this one really was him just playing like a God and boosting his team up a tier above than what it normally is. He was able to out gun the #1 offense Detroit Pistons and then nearly upset the #3 rated defense in the Boston Celtics (and eventual champs). Bernard dropped 29 points on 60% despite Boston knowing full well he's the only serious threat on his team. He ended his post season run leading the playoffs with about 35 points on 62 TS%.

Alex English went on a great run himself, and put up 30 points on 63 TS% against the #1 rated defense, Utah Jazz. He also coincidentally went toe to toe and matched with another forward competitor in Dantley. Alex ended Western Conference Final run with 30 points, 4.5 assist, 2.1 turnovers (insanity), on 60 TS%.

Now one might say, hey, Alex English had a really great team - and he did. Issel, Lever, Natt were studs. But one also has to acknowledge that Alex English has a style that is incredibly friendly to playing with talent. He is a great catch and shooter, he can create his own shot without wasting a lot of dribbles, he runs with his team. Bernard King is a very iso heavy type of player, even if he had much better offensive teammates his style would eventually hit diminishing returns.

Outside of scoring Alex English was a more versatile player. He was a better passer and kept the ball moving without wasting everyone's time with dribbles (probably why his turnovers are so low). Bernard King in his peak season put up 2 assist per game during the RS, that is pitiful for a small forward.

Finally, Bernard was a really bad defender. Alex English, while not a juggernaut on that end did play defense - the gap in their defense is certainly not negligible.

So again, a common theme this round is me taking a lot of guys with perhaps less impressive combinations of PPG/TS% in favor of being able to do more for your team or at scoring within the flow of an offense instead of pushing something that isn't really there.

C: 1981 Kareem Abdul-Jabar



I'm going to switch my vote from Alex English to 1981 Marques Johnson. I believe his versatility is more valuable for a team with championship aspirations. He was better than English at everything other than scoring, and he was a good scorer still. He was the best player on the Bucks and that team was as good as any.
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Re: All-NBA Teams Project: 1981-85 All-NBA Second Team 

Post#59 » by SinceGatlingWasARookie » Sat Nov 21, 2020 9:24 pm

Kareem is the only player to score more points per game than Bernard King at a higher efficient than Bernard King in a playoff season of 6 games or longer. Bernard King played 12 playoff games in 1n 1984.

I weight a 3 game playoffs at 1/4 regular season 3/4. 12 game playoffs 1/3 regular season 2/3rds. 20 + game playoffs 50% regular 50%
The high scoring player's scoring is very important on a weak scoring team like the 1984 Knicks. Carwright is a mediocre 2nd option. Ray Williams shooting his team out of games is a horrible 3rd option. 1 out of 4 games Williams is good. Fading Truck Robbinson, Rorry Sparrow and Trent Tucker are weak 4th and 5th optios and a mediocre 6th option.

1984 King wasn't a bad defender. 1981 Marquess johnson got 2 more rebounds and 2 more assists but he did not have to carry an offense. Carrying an offense inflates scoring numbers but decreases scoring efficiency. Marqess had offensive help but was behind 1984 playoffs Bernard King in scoring efficiency. I think 1981 Marquess Johson's defense is overrated and 1984 King's defense underrated.

Which version of Bernard King was a really bad defender. He was definetely capable of playing good defense prior to his 1985 injury.
Many players play bad defense on bad teams and good defense on good teams.

Is Bernard King playing bad defense in this video?⬇️
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Re: All-NBA Teams Project: 1981-85 All-NBA Second Team 

Post#60 » by 70sFan » Sat Nov 21, 2020 9:56 pm

SinceGatlingWasARookie wrote:Which version of Bernard King was a really bad defender. He was definetely capable of playing good defense prior to his 1985 injury.
Many players play bad defense on bad teams and good defense on good teams.

I don't think King at his best was terrible defender, but he was never good. He could be decent man defender when tried but he was consistently lost without the ball and rarely boxed out.

Many people say that Dantley was bad defender, but I don't see anything that King did better defensively.
Is Bernard King playing bad defense in this video?⬇️

Not terrible, but I don't find anything to rave about either.

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