All-NBA Teams Project: 1981-85 All-NBA Third Team

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All-NBA Teams Project: 1981-85 All-NBA Third Team 

Post#1 » by 70sFan » Sun Nov 22, 2020 12:34 am

Here is the link to the project thread:

viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1998780

Pick the third team from 1980/81 to 1984/85 season. Explain all your choices at least in short description.

Official 1981-85 All-NBA First Team

G: 1984/85 Magic Johnson
G: 1984/85 Sidney Moncrief
F: 1981/82 Julius Erving
F: 1983/84 Larry Bird
C: 1982/83 Moses Malone


Official 1981-85 All-NBA Second Team

G: 1984/85 Isiah Thomas
G: 1981/82 George Gervin
F: 1983/84 Adrian Dantley
F: 1980/81 Marques Johnson
C: 1980/81 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar


Rules:

1. Include both RS and playoffs (it's not RS award like in real life).

2. You can pick only one season per player - for example, you can't use 2016 and 2018 James in different teams.

3. Votes will be counted per player, not per version of player. I think that otherwise, we'll have players with multiple great seaosns (like James or Kareem for example) unfairly downgraded.

4. We vote in a G/G/F/F/C system.

If you want to participate, just let me know. I'm trying to get consistent list of voters.

Spoiler:
Odinn21 wrote:I'm in.

Doctor MJ wrote:Sounds fun. I'm in.

Dutchball97 wrote:I'm in.

PistolPeteJR wrote:I'm in lol. :D

Ryoga Hibiki wrote:yes

Orin wrote:I would love to participate

ardee wrote:Sure

Heej wrote:Interesting I'm in

clearlynotjesse wrote:I wanna play

E-Balla wrote:I'm down but my participation won't be super consistent like usual, sorry for that.

Eddy_JukeZ wrote:I'm in.

SinceGatlingWasARookie wrote:I can participate, but not reliably
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Re: All-NBA Teams Project: 1981-85 All-NBA Third Team 

Post#2 » by 70sFan » Sun Nov 22, 2020 12:43 am

My votes:

G: 1981/82 Gus Williams
G: 1984/85 Michael Jordan
F: 1983/84 Bernard King
F: 1984/85 Alex English
C: 1981/82 Artis Gilmore


Gus Williams - he got a lot of recognition and I'm glad he did. Excellent player in his last peak-ish season. He started his career as a scoring guard but he improved as a playmaker tremendously.

Michael Jordan - I can't see anyone else here, despite flaws he was simply more talented and produced more than anyone left.

Bernard King - all-time great scoring postseason run but only with decent regular season. One of the best scorers ever at his peak, but lacked all-around game to be higher.

Alex English - the most versatile of the high scoring 1980s SFs. He could pass, he could defend and he moved without the ball brilliantly. The most important part of Doug Moe all-time offensive teams. He had really nice postseason run in 1985, eventually losing to future champions.

Artis Gilmore - not 100% sure about this pick, but I'm high on Gilmore's ridiculous efficiency and sound inside defense. I can see a case for Parish and Sikma as well, but I like Gilmore's game the most.
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Re: All-NBA Teams Project: 1981-85 All-NBA Third Team 

Post#3 » by SinceGatlingWasARookie » Sun Nov 22, 2020 12:44 am

Kareem is the only player to score more points per game than Bernard King at a higher efficient than Bernard King in a playoff season of 6 games or longer. Bernard King played 12 playoff games in 1n 1984.

The all NBA 1st teams for this time period were Bird 5 times, Dr J 3 times and Bernard King twice.

My votes
F 1983-84 Bernard King
G 1984-85 Michel Jordan
⬆️ The easy votes
C 1981-82 Robert Parish
F 1984-85 McHale
G 1981-82 Gus Williams


Bernard King is a no Brainer if playoffs count for 1/3 or more.

Rookie Michael Jordan is a no brainer if I stop being influenced by people that thought he was a ball hog playing bad defense.
Rookie Jordan has the best stats (TS% not FG%), was the best athlete, and the accusations against him were not born out by the Bucks vs Bulls playoff game video.
Jordan's overall impact on defense (great play - mistakes) was good.

I did not see much of 1985 Jordan and don't remember what I did see. I did watch the Bulls Celtics series in 1986 as a Celtic fan. My reaction was that the hype about Jordan was real and it looked like he may have already surpassed Bird and Magic if he could consistently play like he did in the 1986 playoffs.

My one complaint about Jordan in the 1986 playoffs was that he and Woolridge seemed to take turns having their offensive possession and scoring as individuals rather than as part of a team. I saw Jordan as being more in a team offense in the 1 1985 Bucks vs Bulls playoff game that I watched recently.


The hard votes
1982 Parish has better playoff stats than 1981 Parish
Should I have gone with rookie Hakeem? Or Gilmore's scoring efficiency.
Parish did everything well. Not the best hands. Travels occasionally. He was pretty mobile.

1985 McHale, great defender, extremely efficient scorer. My only complaints are that he is not a big scorer and he is not fast. 22 points a game at TS 32% Cummings gets 27 a game at TS 63% Neither of these guys had to carry a offense like Bernard King.
English gets 30 a game at TS 57% vs 85 Lakers. McHale gets 26 at TS 64%


C Parish vs Gilmore, Ruland vs Eaton vs Sikma, vs, Issel, vs Lanier vs Walton vs Hakeem vs Sampson.

F McHale, vs Cummings, vs English, vs Buck Williams vs 1984 Vandeweghe, Aguirre, Nance, Pressey, wilkins, Bobby Jones (but no don't overate the defensive players or efficient players and underrate volume scorers to compensate for stupid fans only caring about scoring)

1982 Gus williams
There is no wow here for me. I always liked Gus Williams. His efficiency could be better. I do like fast. He was fast. The guy who wowed me was Michael Ray Richardson but he was not efficient enough. His stats don't back up my faded memory. he must have just had some good games while I watched. I could be persuaded to vote for him. David Thompson is the high scorer. I don't think Thompson was a good defender that year and his efficiency wasn't good and he did not make the playoffs. I wanted to find somebody better than Gus Williams but there wasn't anybody.


G Michael Ray Richardson, Walter Davis, Toney, Gus Williams, 1981 David Thompson no playoffs, Blackmon, Jim Paxson

Michael Ray Williams all defensive team 1981
I don't think Cowens belonged on the all defensive team in 1980. That was my home team. Parish was definitely a defensive upgrade on Cowens. I doubt Wedman belonged on the 1980 all defensive team.
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Re: All-NBA Teams Project: 1981-85 All-NBA Third Team 

Post#4 » by Odinn21 » Sun Nov 22, 2020 2:21 am

C: 1981 Artis Gilmore
I think any of Gilmore, Parish and Sikma is a good choice for this spot. It's a very big step down from Moses and Kareem though.

F: 1984 Bernard King
F: 1985 Alex English
I already had Dantley for my 2nd team and stated would have English for 3rd. I think they are pretty obvious.

G: 1985 Michael Jordan
Obvious pick.

G: 1982 Gus Williams
Mate, he was my 1st team selection... :( :D
The issue with per75 numbers;
36pts on 27 fga/9 fta in 36 mins, does this mean he'd keep up the efficiency to get 48pts on 36fga/12fta in 48 mins?
The answer; NO. He's human, not a linearly working machine.
Per75 is efficiency rate, not actual production.
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Re: All-NBA Teams Project: 1981-85 All-NBA Third Team 

Post#5 » by SinceGatlingWasARookie » Sun Nov 22, 2020 5:48 am

I would take 1984 Jeff Ruland over the best Jack Sikma. What stops me from taking Ruland over Parish and Gilmore is that Ruland wasn't a good shot blocker. I want shot blocking from the center.
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Re: All-NBA Teams Project: 1981-85 All-NBA Third Team 

Post#6 » by 70sFan » Sun Nov 22, 2020 7:26 am

SinceGatlingWasARookie wrote:I would take 1984 Jeff Ruland over the best Jack Sikma. What stops me from taking Ruland over Parish and Gilmore is that Ruland wasn't a good shot blocker. I want shot blocking from the center.

Ruland was a turnover machine though. Have you seen him enough to say what made his tov numbers so high?

I haven't seen Ruland a lot outside of a few highlight videos. I know he's quite skilled player but I can't get why he lost the ball so much.
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Re: All-NBA Teams Project: 1981-85 All-NBA Third Team 

Post#7 » by SinceGatlingWasARookie » Sun Nov 22, 2020 8:09 am

70sFan wrote:
SinceGatlingWasARookie wrote:I would take 1984 Jeff Ruland over the best Jack Sikma. What stops me from taking Ruland over Parish and Gilmore is that Ruland wasn't a good shot blocker. I want shot blocking from the center.

Ruland was a turnover machine though. Have you seen him enough to say what made his tov numbers so high?

I haven't seen Ruland a lot outside of a few highlight videos. I know he's quite skilled player but I can't get why he lost the ball so much.


Yes I saw Ruland enough. i was Celtic centric back then and then after moving became Warriors centric. It is a waroed way to view the NBA. The Bullets had a playoff series vs the Celtics in 1984.

Ruland had short arms and small hands. Ruland probabably had 2 to 3 bobbled passes per game. 1 to 2 traveling calls per game and 1 to 2 moving screens per game and a charging a call per game and throw a wild pass per game. He had 7.8 assists per game in the playoffs. My numbers are off because they add up to more turnovers than he got.

Ruland and Mahorn pushed the envelope on hard moving screens for the 1984 Bullets. They might slide a bit and lean and stick out an elbow. They rocked people hard several times a game. Celtics radio man Johny Most called them McFilthy and McNasty.

Ruland was a bull in the china shop but he had a feathery touch after smashing into people. He had a pretty side. Nice fakes to set up mid range jumpers. But his playing style looked a little out of control. He would pivot wildly, lean this way and that way, make a lot of contact, drbble at the edge of what he was capable of.

He would try to attack the rim by dribbling through crowds. He wasn't that good of a dribbler but his tactic was worth it because he was drawing fouls by driving into people. But he was just as likely to pull up and shoot a jumper as he was to drive.

So basically he played out of control except he knew what he was doing and his shooting was under control. TS 63% in 84
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Re: All-NBA Teams Project: 1981-85 All-NBA Third Team 

Post#8 » by Dutchball97 » Sun Nov 22, 2020 9:13 am

Guard: Michael Jordan, 1984/85
Guard: Gus Williams, 1981/82
Forward: Bernard King, 1983/84


I won't go into details on these guys as I feel like they should've been voted in already and there are no arguments to keep them out even longer.

Forward: Alex English, 1984/85 - Kind of a default pick. Not too big on McHale before 86 and I view English as a toss up with Dantley, who is already in for some reason.

Center: Robert Parish, 1981/82 - Like others said, it really doesn't matter which of Parish, Gilmore and Sikma get the nod. I'd put rookie Hakeem below all of them so not a fan of picking him here. In any case this is a massive drop from Moses/Kareem.
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Re: All-NBA Teams Project: 1981-85 All-NBA Third Team 

Post#9 » by HeartBreakKid » Sun Nov 22, 2020 10:52 am

G: 1985 Michael Jordan

G: 1981 David Thompson - I kind of smacked my forehead because I kept forgetting to vote for Gus Williams last round. I feel like he should make my teams over these more flawed players, I just don't have enough time to reflect on his comeback season. For now though I'll go with Thompson who was a mega explosive scorer with good shooting, and a decent playmaker - kind of like the guard version of Dr.J. I'm more familiar with 70s Thompson though.

F: 1985 Kevin McHale - I think everyone kind of knows Kevin was basically not stoppable when he was given the ball. His sample size of success is very large. You can validly criticize that Kevin played with a very talented team that made his life way easier. This is certainly true, but we do see in the 1989 season when Bird missed almost the entire season that Kevin puts up 22 ppg on 60 TS - so there is little doubt in my mind that 27 year old Kevin cannot replicate the same thing. Kevin was also a bit of an underrated rebounder playing next to Parish. But even with that in mind, 20 PPG or so on 60 TS is great, but it's clear that there are better scorers to pick from - what gives him the edge is that Kevin in his younger years was a really stellar defender. A lot of his competition at this spot are not good defenders, and are rather one dimensional - a few cannot even strongly take advantage of Kevin's poor passing. So largely Kevin's defense kind of seals the deal for me here, plus I personally find him to be a really good offball player in terms of getting you a good mid range J or of course fighting for great position. He does not need to cannibalize an offense to get his.

F: 1985 Alex English - This is largely between English vs King for me.

Bernard is probably the best scorer during this 5 year stretch. His playoff run really does seal the deal though - most carry jobs are exaggerations, but this one really was him just playing like a God and boosting his team up a tier above than what it normally is. He was able to out gun the #1 offense Detroit Pistons and then nearly upset the #3 rated defense in the Boston Celtics (and eventual champs). Bernard dropped 29 points on 60% despite Boston knowing full well he's the only serious threat on his team. He ended his post season run leading the playoffs with about 35 points on 62 TS%.

Alex English went on a great run himself, and put up 30 points on 63 TS% against the #1 rated defense, Utah Jazz. He also coincidentally went toe to toe and matched with another forward competitor in Dantley. Alex ended Western Conference Final run with 30 points, 4.5 assist, 2.1 turnovers (insanity), on 60 TS%.

Now one might say, hey, Alex English had a really great team - and he did. Issel, Lever, Natt were studs. But one also has to acknowledge that Alex English has a style that is incredibly friendly to playing with talent. He is a great catch and shooter, he can create his own shot without wasting a lot of dribbles, he runs with his team. Bernard King is a very iso heavy type of player, even if he had much better offensive teammates his style would eventually hit diminishing returns.

Outside of scoring Alex English was a more versatile player. He was a better passer and kept the ball moving without wasting everyone's time with dribbles (probably why his turnovers are so low). Bernard King in his peak season put up 2 assist per game during the RS, that is pitiful for a small forward.

Finally, Bernard was a really bad defender. Alex English, while not a juggernaut on that end did play defense - the gap in their defense is certainly not negligible.

So again, a common theme this round is me taking a lot of guys with perhaps less impressive combinations of PPG/TS% in favor of being able to do more for your team or at scoring within the flow of an offense instead of pushing something that isn't really there.


1981 Artis Gilmore - In a comparison with Parish I'm going to take Artis. I feel like Gilmore is a more sound defender than Parish, though they both have good fundamentals. I think Gilmore's time as a decade long franchise player just seasoned him better at that end. He had better vision than Parish - their APG is the same this season but Artis already showed he had the capability to be a solid passing big, especially considering he is an "unskilled" player. Finally, points and where they occupy the place on the court are the same but Gilmore is just on another level of finishing than Parish. I do think Parish creates his shot more than Artis, but not to such a great degree that he is overall more valuable. Gilmore though really is just a beast, the guy lead the league with 67-68 TS%, and every playoff appearance he has he shot well over 60 TS%. Artis is an excellent 2nd option on any team.
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Re: All-NBA Teams Project: 1981-85 All-NBA Third Team 

Post#10 » by SinceGatlingWasARookie » Sun Nov 22, 2020 9:49 pm

Bernard King was capable of playing good defense. I don't think it is safe to assume King was a bad defender in 1984. I associate Alex English with bad defense but but that doesn't mean that he always played bad defense. There are people that played bad defense on bad teams and good defense on good teams.
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Re: All-NBA Teams Project: 1981-85 All-NBA Third Team 

Post#11 » by 70sFan » Wed Nov 25, 2020 1:42 pm

Sorry for slow running, I have quite busy week now :(

Votes so far:

Guards

Michael Jordan 5
Gus Williams 4
David Thompson 1

Forwards

Bernard King 4
Alex English 4
Kevin McHale 2

Centers

Artis Gilmore 3
Robert Parish 2

5 votes is too low to finish, I will wait another few hours for more.
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Re: All-NBA Teams Project: 1981-85 All-NBA Third Team 

Post#12 » by 70sFan » Wed Nov 25, 2020 1:46 pm

HeartBreakKid wrote:I do think Parish creates his shot more than Artis, but not to such a great degree that he is overall more valuable.


I don't think that Parish created his shot more than Gilmore at all to be honest. Parish was mostly a finisher and although he did play some post up isolations, it wasn't his game and he was that great at that (at least from my observations). He was a poor passer and he travelled quite often.

I think that Gilmore was clearly better offensively at everything other than running in transition and shooting short midrange jumpshots. Even in terms of FT shooting, Parish has no edge.

The biggest question is who was better defensively, some people question Gilmore's defensive impact in the early 1980s.
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Re: All-NBA Teams Project: 1981-85 All-NBA Third Team 

Post#13 » by 70sFan » Thu Nov 26, 2020 10:32 pm

Official 1981-85 All-NBA Third Team

G: 1981/82 Gus Williams
G: 1984/85 Michael Jordan
F: 1983/84 Bernard King
F: 1984/85 Alex English
C: 1980/81 Artis Gilmore


I'm disappointed with low amount of votes, but I can't wait forever. We'll move on to the next era ;)

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