'96 Bulls with Kobe v '09 Lakers with Mike - who you got?

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'96 Bulls with Kobe v '09 Lakers with Mike - who you got? 

Post#1 » by Laimbeer » Sun Nov 22, 2020 1:44 pm

Their stars swapped, who wins a finals series?
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Re: '96 Bulls with Kobe v '09 Lakers with Mike - who you got? 

Post#2 » by freethedevil » Sun Nov 22, 2020 5:04 pm

--Squints at Jordan during the 96 Finals--

The bulls you'd have to think. Aside from being a much better team than the 09 laker s outside of their stars kobe played much better in the final against a better defense.
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Re: '96 Bulls with Kobe v '09 Lakers with Mike - who you got? 

Post#3 » by sansterre » Sun Nov 22, 2020 6:14 pm

freethedevil wrote:--Squints at Jordan during the 96 Finals--

The bulls you'd have to think. Aside from being a much better team than the 09 laker s outside of their stars kobe played much better in the final against a better defense.


Just jumping in with some stats.

Regular Season: '09 Magic (-6.4), '96 Sonics (-5.5)
Playoffs: '96 Sonics (-7.63), '09 Magic (-5.5)

So I don't know how clear it is that the Magic are the better defense.
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Re: '96 Bulls with Kobe v '09 Lakers with Mike - who you got? 

Post#4 » by SinceGatlingWasARookie » Mon Nov 23, 2020 2:38 am

Sorry Scottie, Mike with the Lakers win
If the Bulls get to play with the short 3 while the Lakers have to play with the normal 3 then maybe the Bulls win. Kobe could do serious damage with the short 3.
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Re: '96 Bulls with Kobe v '09 Lakers with Mike - who you got? 

Post#5 » by Cavsfansince84 » Mon Nov 23, 2020 2:53 am

Mike would take the Kobe matchup personally and Kobe would likely shoot his team out of a couple games trying to keep pace with MJ. So going with the MJ led Lakers here.
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Re: '96 Bulls with Kobe v '09 Lakers with Mike - who you got? 

Post#6 » by Statlanta » Mon Nov 23, 2020 3:29 am

The Bulls. That was a legendary squad even without Mike.
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Re: '96 Bulls with Kobe v '09 Lakers with Mike - who you got? 

Post#7 » by No-more-rings » Mon Nov 23, 2020 3:41 am

09 Kobe and 96 Mj are on the same level so i don't see what difference swapping them really makes.
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Re: '96 Bulls with Kobe v '09 Lakers with Mike - who you got? 

Post#8 » by freethedevil » Mon Nov 23, 2020 9:01 am

sansterre wrote:
freethedevil wrote:--Squints at Jordan during the 96 Finals--

The bulls you'd have to think. Aside from being a much better team than the 09 laker s outside of their stars kobe played much better in the final against a better defense.


Just jumping in with some stats.

Regular Season: '09 Magic (-6.4), '96 Sonics (-5.5)
Playoffs: '96 Sonics (-7.63), '09 Magic (-5.5)

So I don't know how clear it is that the Magic are the better defense.


Well you see, the 09 magic ran into the frakenstein combination of giannis's defense against the 19 raptors, magic's creation against the 91 bulls, and jordan's scoring against the 89 knicks known as 09 Lebron, before facing off against what is only really rivalled by 01 vs portland as Kobe's best ever series.... while the 96 sonics ran into
.....looks at the bulls teamsheet...
2016 banged-up Steph---' I mean 96 Micheal Jordan.


Also are the people here picking the lakers with jordan aware of how outclassed they are by jordan's 96 teamamtes?

This team nearly beat a team that was a couple possessions of a title in 94 and then, after losing their second best player(grant) played 52 win basketball when healthy before adding horace grant the remix in rodman.

Unless you think dennis rodman is chump change, there's only one defensible answer here.Actually no, even _if_ he was chump change, there's still only one defensible answer here.

You are puttingKobe at his very best on what is at least a 55 win team and you are putting what is the worst of playoff 16 curry on a average team.

There is only one way this ends.
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Re: '96 Bulls with Kobe v '09 Lakers with Mike - who you got? 

Post#9 » by freethedevil » Mon Nov 23, 2020 9:03 am

No-more-rings wrote:09 Kobe and 96 Mj are on the same level so i don't see what difference swapping them really makes.

If we ignore that one played vastly better than the other in the most pivotal series of the season...

then yes,

they're on the same level
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Re: '96 Bulls with Kobe v '09 Lakers with Mike - who you got? 

Post#10 » by The Master » Mon Nov 23, 2020 9:56 am

No-more-rings wrote:09 Kobe and 96 Mj are on the same level so i don't see what difference swapping them really makes.

I don't think they are. Kobe had better NBA Finals, but I wouldn't say Magic were as good defensively as Sonics in this specific matchup: I mean, there's some difference if you're guarded by rookie Courtney Lee, or by Gary Payton after game 3. I'm not as high as many people on 2nd-three peat Jordan, but Sonics were probably the most difficult matchup he faced. On the other hand, Magic were decent defensively, but they were lacking defensive stopper on a wing, so opposite stars (Pierce, LeBron, Bryant) maintained or increased their regular season production in postseason. You can point out rDRTG and so on, but playoff basketball is all about matchups.

That being said, Bulls '96 were much better as a support than Lakers '09, and Bryant and Jordan were close enough to say that I agree that swapping Kobe and MJ wouldn't make a difference here.
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Re: '96 Bulls with Kobe v '09 Lakers with Mike - who you got? 

Post#11 » by RCM88x » Mon Nov 23, 2020 4:44 pm

I actually don't think the Bulls would beat the Sonics in '96 with Kobe in place of Jordan, it would certainly be closer. Lakers would probably cruise a bit more than they did that year with Jordan.

Swapping the two players in a direct matchup probably wouldn't change the results. The Bulls were just s better team.
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Re: '96 Bulls with Kobe v '09 Lakers with Mike - who you got? 

Post#12 » by feyki » Mon Nov 23, 2020 5:11 pm

How much 96 MJ better than 09 Kobe? A bit better defensively and probably with better rebounding. Swapping takes Bulls to 11 SRS from 12 and LA 8 SRS from 7.5 at best. 96 Bulls with Kobe, with lots of garbage times winning.
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Re: '96 Bulls with Kobe v '09 Lakers with Mike - who you got? 

Post#13 » by sansterre » Mon Nov 23, 2020 10:26 pm

freethedevil wrote:
sansterre wrote:
freethedevil wrote:--Squints at Jordan during the 96 Finals--

The bulls you'd have to think. Aside from being a much better team than the 09 laker s outside of their stars kobe played much better in the final against a better defense.


Just jumping in with some stats.

Regular Season: '09 Magic (-6.4), '96 Sonics (-5.5)
Playoffs: '96 Sonics (-7.63), '09 Magic (-5.5)

So I don't know how clear it is that the Magic are the better defense.


Well you see, the 09 magic ran into the frakenstein combination of giannis's defense against the 19 raptors, magic's creation against the 91 bulls, and jordan's scoring against the 89 knicks known as 09 Lebron, before facing off against what is only really rivalled by 01 vs portland as Kobe's best ever series.... while the 96 sonics ran into
.....looks at the bulls teamsheet...
2016 banged-up Steph---' I mean 96 Micheal Jordan.


'09 Orlando played the following:

6 games against the 76ers (-0.5 OR)
7 games against the Celtics (no KG) (+2.2 OR)
6 games against the Cavs (+4.1 OR)
5 games against the Lakers (+4.4 OR)

for an average Opposing Offense of +2.5 (and that's a bit overrated because Garnett was out)

'96 Seattle played the following:

4 games against the Kings (-1.4 OR)
4 games against the Rockets (+1.7 OR)
7 games against the Jazz (+5.7 OR)
6 games against the Bulls (+7.6 OR)

for an average Opposing Offense of +4.13

So I don't think you get to argue that the Magic played tougher offenses than the Sonics, at least based on their regular season ratings.
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Re: '96 Bulls with Kobe v '09 Lakers with Mike - who you got? 

Post#14 » by D.Brasco » Tue Nov 24, 2020 8:42 pm

RCM88x wrote:I actually don't think the Bulls would beat the Sonics in '96 with Kobe in place of Jordan, it would certainly be closer. Lakers would probably cruise a bit more than they did that year with Jordan.

Swapping the two players in a direct matchup probably wouldn't change the results. The Bulls were just s better team.


I'm not sure if we're supposed to be focused on just the finals or the whole season? But in the Finals at least Dennis Rodman was the real game changer for the Bulls. George Karl fully believed Dennis Rodman deserved the FMVP for that series.

In the finals at least, switching out that specific Jordan for Kobe I don't see how that would have tipped things for the Sonics?
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Re: '96 Bulls with Kobe v '09 Lakers with Mike - who you got? 

Post#15 » by RCM88x » Tue Nov 24, 2020 8:52 pm

D.Brasco wrote:
RCM88x wrote:I actually don't think the Bulls would beat the Sonics in '96 with Kobe in place of Jordan, it would certainly be closer. Lakers would probably cruise a bit more than they did that year with Jordan.

Swapping the two players in a direct matchup probably wouldn't change the results. The Bulls were just s better team.


I'm not sure if we're supposed to be focused on just the finals or the whole season? But in the Finals at least Dennis Rodman was the real game changer for the Bulls. George Karl fully believed Dennis Rodman deserved the FMVP for that series.

In the finals at least, switching out that specific Jordan for Kobe I don't see how that would have tipped things for the Sonics?


Kobe is worse than Jordan, if you replace a player with a worse player in a closer series it can tip it to the other side.

Even if Jordan didn't play to his standards, putting Kobe in his place certainly would have hurt the Bulls chances. I really don't think there's anything Kobe is better than Jordan at in these years.
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Re: '96 Bulls with Kobe v '09 Lakers with Mike - who you got? 

Post#16 » by D.Brasco » Tue Nov 24, 2020 9:20 pm

RCM88x wrote:
D.Brasco wrote:
RCM88x wrote:I actually don't think the Bulls would beat the Sonics in '96 with Kobe in place of Jordan, it would certainly be closer. Lakers would probably cruise a bit more than they did that year with Jordan.

Swapping the two players in a direct matchup probably wouldn't change the results. The Bulls were just s better team.


I'm not sure if we're supposed to be focused on just the finals or the whole season? But in the Finals at least Dennis Rodman was the real game changer for the Bulls. George Karl fully believed Dennis Rodman deserved the FMVP for that series.

In the finals at least, switching out that specific Jordan for Kobe I don't see how that would have tipped things for the Sonics?


Kobe is worse than Jordan, if you replace a player with a worse player in a closer series it can tip it to the other side.

Even if Jordan didn't play to his standards, putting Kobe in his place certainly would have hurt the Bulls chances. I really don't think there's anything Kobe is better than Jordan at in these years.


I agree MJ was better than Kobe overall but are you saying 2009 Kobe would be putting up worse numbers than Jordan did in that series? 27 ppg, 41% FG, 53% TS, 5rpg, 4 apg.

It's possible but the 2009 Kobe we are comparing did reasonably better in his finals series. I think MJ was at his most Kobe like in that '96 Finals and I don't chalk it all up to the Sonics D, it was probably just an off-series for him. And the fact the Bulls still won shows the support the rest of the Bulls (namely Rodman) provided.
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Re: '96 Bulls with Kobe v '09 Lakers with Mike - who you got? 

Post#17 » by RCM88x » Tue Nov 24, 2020 9:43 pm

D.Brasco wrote:
RCM88x wrote:
D.Brasco wrote:
I'm not sure if we're supposed to be focused on just the finals or the whole season? But in the Finals at least Dennis Rodman was the real game changer for the Bulls. George Karl fully believed Dennis Rodman deserved the FMVP for that series.

In the finals at least, switching out that specific Jordan for Kobe I don't see how that would have tipped things for the Sonics?


Kobe is worse than Jordan, if you replace a player with a worse player in a closer series it can tip it to the other side.

Even if Jordan didn't play to his standards, putting Kobe in his place certainly would have hurt the Bulls chances. I really don't think there's anything Kobe is better than Jordan at in these years.


I agree MJ was better than Kobe overall but are you saying 2009 Kobe would be putting up worse numbers than Jordan did in that series? 27 ppg, 41% FG, 53% TS, 5rpg, 4 apg.

It's possible but the 2009 Kobe we are comparing did reasonably better in his finals series. I think MJ was at his most Kobe like in that '96 Finals and I don't chalk it all up to the Sonics D, it was probably just an off-series for him. And the fact the Bulls still won shows the support the rest of the Bulls (namely Rodman) provided.


Perhaps, but Kobe has had series where he played to the level Jordan did and also series where he played below that level (2008 Finals, 2004 Finals, 2010 Finals, 2011 2nd Rd, 2012 2nd round, probably some others), we can debate the quality of defenses faced for ages but the fact remains. I think it's more likely that Kobe would under perform compared to Jordan in the same scenario rather than to the same level.

Generally, I feel a bad match-up for 06-11 Kobe is a bad match-up for 96-98 Jordan, and vice versa. Maybe there are some nuances, but the plug and play possibility here is definitely real, with Kobe being a little worse on both ends than Jordan.
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Re: '96 Bulls with Kobe v '09 Lakers with Mike - who you got? 

Post#18 » by magicman1978 » Tue Nov 24, 2020 10:33 pm

RCM88x wrote:
D.Brasco wrote:
RCM88x wrote:
Kobe is worse than Jordan, if you replace a player with a worse player in a closer series it can tip it to the other side.

Even if Jordan didn't play to his standards, putting Kobe in his place certainly would have hurt the Bulls chances. I really don't think there's anything Kobe is better than Jordan at in these years.


I agree MJ was better than Kobe overall but are you saying 2009 Kobe would be putting up worse numbers than Jordan did in that series? 27 ppg, 41% FG, 53% TS, 5rpg, 4 apg.

It's possible but the 2009 Kobe we are comparing did reasonably better in his finals series. I think MJ was at his most Kobe like in that '96 Finals and I don't chalk it all up to the Sonics D, it was probably just an off-series for him. And the fact the Bulls still won shows the support the rest of the Bulls (namely Rodman) provided.


Perhaps, but Kobe has had series where he played to the level Jordan did and also series where he played below that level (2008 Finals, 2004 Finals, 2010 Finals, 2011 2nd Rd, 2012 2nd round, probably some others), we can debate the quality of defenses faced for ages but the fact remains. I think it's more likely that Kobe would under perform compared to Jordan in the same scenario rather than to the same level.

Generally, I feel a bad match-up for 06-11 Kobe is a bad match-up for 96-98 Jordan, and vice versa. Maybe there are some nuances, but the plug and play possibility here is definitely real, with Kobe being a little worse on both ends than Jordan.


Kobe's finals numbers in 09 and Jordan's in 96 are also much closer than they would initially appear (Kobe 40pts/100poss, +1.7% rTS, +9ortg and Jordan 37.5pts/100poss, +1.4 rTS, +14ortg). Kobe also had a bit more support offensively (his teammates were +3.6% rTS while Jordan's were -2.8% rTS). Kobe on the Bulls would have less space to operate and would have had to play primarily out of the post as Pippen was the primary facilitator. Given that the Sonics were a better perimeter defense than the Magic, I agree that I don't see Kobe doing any better than Jordan did (we can look at the series in 08, 09, and 10 where he faced better perimeter defenders as evidence).

On topic. Where the Bulls cast shines is on defense. Swap Kobe and Jordan and the Bulls win the matchup.
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Re: '96 Bulls with Kobe v '09 Lakers with Mike - who you got? 

Post#19 » by Matt15 » Tue Nov 24, 2020 10:40 pm

I see little difference between 2nd 3 peat Jordan and Prime Kobe so this swap is pretty much a lateral move in my mind. The Bulls had the better supporting cast, MJ in '96 had his worst finals and Kobe in '09 his best. Bulls take it in 6.
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Re: '96 Bulls with Kobe v '09 Lakers with Mike - who you got? 

Post#20 » by freethedevil » Thu Nov 26, 2020 11:16 am

sansterre wrote:
freethedevil wrote:
sansterre wrote:
Just jumping in with some stats.

Regular Season: '09 Magic (-6.4), '96 Sonics (-5.5)
Playoffs: '96 Sonics (-7.63), '09 Magic (-5.5)

So I don't know how clear it is that the Magic are the better defense.


Well you see, the 09 magic ran into the frakenstein combination of giannis's defense against the 19 raptors, magic's creation against the 91 bulls, and jordan's scoring against the 89 knicks known as 09 Lebron, before facing off against what is only really rivalled by 01 vs portland as Kobe's best ever series.... while the 96 sonics ran into
.....looks at the bulls teamsheet...
2016 banged-up Steph---' I mean 96 Micheal Jordan.


'09 Orlando played the following:

6 games against the 76ers (-0.5 OR)
7 games against the Celtics (no KG) (+2.2 OR)
6 games against the Cavs (+4.1 OR)
5 games against the Lakers (+4.4 OR)

for an average Opposing Offense of +2.5 (and that's a bit overrated because Garnett was out)

'96 Seattle played the following:

4 games against the Kings (-1.4 OR)
4 games against the Rockets (+1.7 OR)
7 games against the Jazz (+5.7 OR)
6 games against the Bulls (+7.6 OR)

for an average Opposing Offense of +4.13

So I don't think you get to argue that the Magic played tougher offenses than the Sonics, at least based on their regular season ratings.


The point, is that Jordan's own terrible play boosted the playoff rating of the sonics while Kobe's great play murked the rating of the magic so its unfair to kobe to include the bulls and the lakers offense in the sample.


Your numbers do show lebron's induvidual performance was a red herring. So fair enough there.

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