Greatest Peaks series (Thinking Basketball/Ben Taylor)

[Doctor MJ]

Not only did I not say that, I basically said the opposite. The whole point of the comparison was to show another example of a guy who played a high risk style that led to some mistakes but was ultimately so successful in doing so as to be known as one of the greatest ever, just like MJ.

But you're still in the same conversation where you earlier complained about Taylor bringing up anything negative about Jordan's defense. Taylor talking about how Jordan played and the pros and cons of it was not the same as him saying Jordan was not successful.

No. Again, my issue wasn't that Taylor criticized MJ - he criticized his shot selection too and you don't hear me saying anything about that. My problem was that he did it so disproportionately wrt defense as to leave the viewer with an inaccurate representation of what was actually happening. He was overly critical, but worse - I thought he missed the boat in a fundamental way on what was really happening most of the time. Some of the misses like the ones he showed look really bad but most of his misses weren't actually that detrimental because he was still able to recover or it resulted in lesser shooters getting the open look, etc. The hits OTOH which vastly outnumbered the misses resulted in turnovers and fast break opportunities and guys beating themselves because they were freaked out about him - like the old adage about good shot blockers where sometimes their deterrent factor is just as important as the actual blocked shot. It's like he tried to apply traditional defensive theory to the analysis but forgot to account for the fact that it's MJ. It doesn't matter if you thought that surprise double or ball swipe or rotation from the weakside wasn't warranted or was too big of a risk if the end result was that the play got blown up. Taylor left us with the impression that these higher risk plays were something of a 50/50 proposition for him or maybe a little better with similar risk/reward and I just think don't agree with that at all. Not in MJ's case anyway.

Did you go through and time what fraction of the time he spent criticizing Jordan compared to praising him?

I understand that this is how the video hit you, and you're not alone on this or on other videos. The negatives are hitting people way harder than the positives, because that's how people are, but if you time it out, there's a lot more positive than negative.

[VanWest82]

Did you go through and time what fraction of the time he spent criticizing Jordan compared to praising him?

I understand that this is how the video hit you, and you're not alone on this or on other videos. The negatives are hitting people way harder than the positives, because that's how people are, but if you time it out, there's a lot more positive than negative.

I did and it was about 50/50 in the defense section depending on your interpretation. Sansterre did the same thing and came out with a different take. But like I said, the disagreement was a little more fundamental for me: namely, that MJ's aggressive style defensively was the very thing that made him so great and not the thing that held him back from being one of the greats.

[Heej]

Did you go through and time what fraction of the time he spent criticizing Jordan compared to praising him?

I understand that this is how the video hit you, and you're not alone on this or on other videos. The negatives are hitting people way harder than the positives, because that's how people are, but if you time it out, there's a lot more positive than negative.

I did and it was about 50/50 in the defense section depending on your interpretation. Sansterre did the same thing and came out with a different take. But like I said, the disagreement was a little more fundamental for me: namely, that MJ's aggressive style defensively was the very thing that made him so great and not the thing that held him back from being one of the greats.

I don't think anyone's disputing that it played a big role in what made him a great defender. How could it not? He was a great guard defender and played an aggressive style. It just appears we're at an impasse here where you feel the cons are ultimately negligible and are on a one-man crusade to overcorrect for the general consensus that there were clear pros and clear cons to the style.

I hope you know you're drastically downplaying the negative outcomes of MJs random forays. It wasn't just that MJ whiffed and then gave up shots to poor shooters or recovered damn near every time, there were plenty times where his whiff led to a breakdown where his man would attack and draw the next layer of defense and dish it off for an easy conversion. There were plenty times he reached for a steal vs a ballhandler and lurched out of position leaving an advantage drive to the rim which again drew help and caused breakdowns.

Personally, just as a hooper in general beyond a bball fan, I think MJs style lent itself to being more spectacular and dominant against weaker opponents while being more muted against the better ones (especially in the playoffs where teams have film to scout against his tendencies too). I wish I knew how to compile the stats and whatnot to even test this, but alas here we are. I wouldn't mind combing thru a random 91 MJ game from the first round and one from the ECF and grading out his swipe attempts vs the two levels of opponents. But even then that's not much of a sample size, and the one guy who has done enough film study is apparently just biased in your eyes so what's the point really?

I don't think we're gonna reconcile this divide at any point unfortunately, and the more MJ talk there is the more the other players get neglected like Hakeem has been.

[sansterre]

I don't think we're gonna reconcile this divide at any point unfortunately, and the more MJ talk there is the more the other players get neglected like Hakeem has been.

Except that the problem is that I found the Hakeem video so good that there's not much to talk about besides "the Hakeem video was really good".

[Doctor MJ]

Did you go through and time what fraction of the time he spent criticizing Jordan compared to praising him?

I understand that this is how the video hit you, and you're not alone on this or on other videos. The negatives are hitting people way harder than the positives, because that's how people are, but if you time it out, there's a lot more positive than negative.

I did and it was about 50/50 in the defense section depending on your interpretation. Sansterre did the same thing and came out with a different take. But like I said, the disagreement was a little more fundamental for me: namely, that MJ's aggressive style defensively was the very thing that made him so great and not the thing that held him back from being one of the greats.

And what I would say is that Taylor isn't primarily talking about either, he's talking about the whole picture. Both the positives and negatives he showed are based on the same mentality - two sides of the same coin.

With this whole project, the reason why he's not doing it as a countdown, and the reason why he's holding back actual rankings in the videos, is that he's trying to get people to focus less on rankings and more on a qualitative understanding of what he was doing out there, and what it's pros and cons were.

[Doctor MJ]

I don't think we're gonna reconcile this divide at any point unfortunately, and the more MJ talk there is the more the other players get neglected like Hakeem has been.

Except that the problem is that I found the Hakeem video so good that there's not much to talk about besides "the Hakeem video was really good".

Well, thing is, if people were as invested in Hakeem as they are in other players, they'd be talking about his criticisms more.

The guys we end up talking about are those with the most devoted fanbases, and those fanbases tend to focus on his negative points for natural human reasons.

I really feel like if Hakeem Olajuwon had an American-sounding name (say, "Patrick Ewing", to pick names completely at random), he's a more popular star when he plays, and Taylor's video in 2021 frustrates more fans.

[freethedevil]

I just went back and corrected my data--please update your quote with the correct values. Accidentally filtered a bunch of data out of the list... Yes, Draymond was accidentally filtered out. Along with KG's later years...

EDIT: Here's the corrected data:

Code: Select all

╔══════╦═══════════════════════════╦═════╦═══════╗
║ Rank ║       Player - Era        ║ MPG ║ DRAPM ║
╠══════╬═══════════════════════════╬═════╬═══════╣
║    1 ║ Kevin Garnett 2007-11     ║  34 ║ 5.6   ║
║    2 ║ Kevin Garnett 2012-16     ║  24 ║ 5.4   ║
║    3 ║ Tim Duncan 2002-06        ║  37 ║ 4.8   ║
║    4 ║ LeBron James 2007-11      ║  39 ║ 4.7   ║
║    5 ║ Ben Wallace 2002-06       ║  37 ║ 4.6   ║
║    6 ║ Andre Iguodala 2012-16    ║  31 ║ 4.6   ║
║    7 ║ Draymond Green 2012-16    ║  25 ║ 4.4   ║
║    8 ║ David Robinson 1997-01    ║  32 ║ 4.3   ║
║    9 ║ Metta World Peace 2002-06 ║  35 ║ 4.1   ║
║   10 ║ Tim Duncan 1997-01        ║  39 ║ 4.1   ║
║   11 ║ Rasheed Wallace 1997-01   ║  35 ║ 4.1   ║
║   12 ║ Dikembe Mutombo 1997-01   ║  36 ║ 4.0   ║
║   13 ║ Paul George 2012-16       ║  34 ║ 4.0   ║
║   14 ║ Scott Burrell 1997-01     ║  17 ║ 4.0   ║
║   15 ║ Bruce Bowen 2007-11       ║  26 ║ 3.9   ║
║   16 ║ Larry Sanders 2012-16     ║  22 ║ 3.9   ║
║   17 ║ Eric Bledsoe 2012-16      ║  27 ║ 3.9   ║
║   18 ║ Shawn Marion 1997-01      ║  32 ║ 3.8   ║
║   19 ║ Luol Deng 2007-11         ║  37 ║ 3.8   ║
║   20 ║ Jason Collins 2002-06     ║  26 ║ 3.8   ║
║   21 ║ Chuck Hayes 2007-11       ║  21 ║ 3.8   ║
║   22 ║ Tony Allen 2012-16        ║  26 ║ 3.7   ║
║   23 ║ Thabo Sefolosha 2012-16   ║  24 ║ 3.7   ║
║   24 ║ Doug Christie 2002-06     ║  33 ║ 3.7   ║
║   25 ║ Kevin Garnett 2002-06     ║  39 ║ 3.6   ║
║   26 ║ Shawn Bradley 1997-01     ║  27 ║ 3.6   ║
║   27 ║ Omer Asik 2007-11         ║  12 ║ 3.6   ║
║   28 ║ Manu Ginobili 2002-06     ║  27 ║ 3.6   ║
║   29 ║ Tony Allen 2007-11        ║  19 ║ 3.5   ║
║   30 ║ Dwight Howard 2007-11     ║  37 ║ 3.5   ║
╚══════╩═══════════════════════════╩═════╩═══════╝

WHat ahppened to 12-16 Lebron

[therealbig3]

I just started watching, watched the Walton and Kareem videos. Based on this thread, I still have Bird, Magic, Jordan, Robinson, and Hakeem to watch. I think Shaq is the next video, based on his twitter?

So we've got:

-Walton
-Kareem
-Bird
-Magic
-Jordan
-Robinson
-Hakeem
-Shaq

That's 8. I really don't see Kobe making this. The montage with Kobe I'm pretty sure is for Shaq, not Kobe. For the 7 remaining players, you still have players like Russell, Wilt, Duncan, Garnett, Curry, and Durant, who are all players that I'm positive that ElGee ranks higher than Kobe as far as peak. You have Nash, CP3, Dirk, Wade, Malone, and Barkley who are all in the convo as well. Not to mention Oscar, West, and Dr. J.

[eminence]

I just started watching, watched the Walton and Kareem videos. Based on this thread, I still have Bird, Magic, Jordan, Robinson, and Hakeem to watch. I think Shaq is the next video, based on his twitter?

So we've got:

-Walton
-Kareem
-Bird
-Magic
-Jordan
-Robinson
-Hakeem
-Shaq

That's 8. I really don't see Kobe making this. The montage with Kobe I'm pretty sure is for Shaq, not Kobe. For the 7 remaining players, you still have players like Russell, Wilt, Duncan, Garnett, Curry, and Durant, who are all players that I'm positive that ElGee ranks higher than Kobe as far as peak. You have CP3, Dirk, Wade, Malone, and Barkley who are all in the convo as well. Not to mention Oscar, West, and Dr. J.

It's only post-merger guys roughly in chronological order, I doubt we'll get Malone/Barkley of the era eligible guys.

[therealbig3]

My thoughts so far:

Walton is definitely underrated, since his career value is so low, but he did peak as high as nearly anyone. I think he should be considered a lot more among the best defensive bigs in history, and is very KG-like in terms of his offensive ability with regards to his passing and activity, but KG was the better scorer for sure.

I think the Kareem video demonstrated that he's likely the best offensive big man ever, maybe comparable to Shaq given Shaq's gravity and foul-drawing ability and his own impressive efficiency in the post, and he was a very, very good defensive big man...but short of the all-time anchors like say, Tim Duncan or David Robinson or Bill Walton (during his 1.5 year peak).

I also don't think he's going to actually rank any of these guys. I think he's going to give you 15 of the best peaks in history, and just group them all together as guys that all peaked around the same level, with some small differences here and there.

Like, peak Jordan or peak LeBron vs peak Duncan or peak Garnett...there really isn't a BIG difference between any of those players, they're all outstanding and they all are capable of massive impact...if there is a difference, it's impossible for that difference to be a gargantuan one, that's just not possible when you get to that level of player. Nobody is "much" better than an MVP, best-in-the-game level player.

[therealbig3]

I just started watching, watched the Walton and Kareem videos. Based on this thread, I still have Bird, Magic, Jordan, Robinson, and Hakeem to watch. I think Shaq is the next video, based on his twitter?

So we've got:

-Walton
-Kareem
-Bird
-Magic
-Jordan
-Robinson
-Hakeem
-Shaq

That's 8. I really don't see Kobe making this. The montage with Kobe I'm pretty sure is for Shaq, not Kobe. For the 7 remaining players, you still have players like Russell, Wilt, Duncan, Garnett, Curry, and Durant, who are all players that I'm positive that ElGee ranks higher than Kobe as far as peak. You have CP3, Dirk, Wade, Malone, and Barkley who are all in the convo as well. Not to mention Oscar, West, and Dr. J.

It's only post-merger guys roughly in chronological order, I doubt we'll get Malone/Barkley of the era eligible guys.

I think based on previous projects, he's always been high on Malone and Barkley as far as peak, but maybe he's changed his mind a little on them, it's certainly possible. He's re-adjusted how he thinks of David Robinson, for example.

If it's post-merger, then you still have Duncan, Garnett, Curry, and Durant as players I'm reasonably sure he ranks ahead of Kobe. I think Nash, CP3, Dirk, Wade, Malone, and Barkley are all in the convo with Kobe. He'll likely take Kobe over Dirk, I know he's not high on Dirk's defense. We'll see how it plays out.

I'd probably have Kobe as a top 15 peak personally, which is why I'm interested in seeing if he makes it.

[freethedevil]

My thoughts so far:

Walton is definitely underrated, since his career value is so low, but he did peak as high as nearly anyone. I think he should be considered a lot more among the best defensive bigs in history, and is very KG-like in terms of his offensive ability with regards to his passing and activity, but KG was the better scorer for sure.

I think the Kareem video demonstrated that he's likely the best offensive big man ever, maybe comparable to Shaq given Shaq's gravity and foul-drawing ability and his own impressive efficiency in the post, and he was a very, very good defensive big man...but short of the all-time anchors like say, Tim Duncan or David Robinson or Bill Walton (during his 1.5 year peak).

I also don't think he's going to actually rank any of these guys. I think he's going to give you 15 of the best peaks in history, and just group them all together as guys that all peaked around the same level, with some small differences here and there.

Like, peak Jordan or peak LeBron vs peak Duncan or peak Garnett...there really isn't a BIG difference between any of those players, they're all outstanding and they all are capable of massive impact...if there is a difference, it's impossible for that difference to be a gargantuan one, that's just not possible when you get to that level of player. Nobody is "much" better than an MVP, best-in-the-game level player.

This is repeated alot but there's like, no basis for it, lol.

[therealbig3]

My thoughts so far:

Walton is definitely underrated, since his career value is so low, but he did peak as high as nearly anyone. I think he should be considered a lot more among the best defensive bigs in history, and is very KG-like in terms of his offensive ability with regards to his passing and activity, but KG was the better scorer for sure.

I think the Kareem video demonstrated that he's likely the best offensive big man ever, maybe comparable to Shaq given Shaq's gravity and foul-drawing ability and his own impressive efficiency in the post, and he was a very, very good defensive big man...but short of the all-time anchors like say, Tim Duncan or David Robinson or Bill Walton (during his 1.5 year peak).

I also don't think he's going to actually rank any of these guys. I think he's going to give you 15 of the best peaks in history, and just group them all together as guys that all peaked around the same level, with some small differences here and there.

Like, peak Jordan or peak LeBron vs peak Duncan or peak Garnett...there really isn't a BIG difference between any of those players, they're all outstanding and they all are capable of massive impact...if there is a difference, it's impossible for that difference to be a gargantuan one, that's just not possible when you get to that level of player. Nobody is "much" better than an MVP, best-in-the-game level player.

This is repeated alot but there's like, no basis for it, lol.

I mean, I'm pretty sure you can run numbers that make Garnett look like the GOAT. I wouldn't rank him there personally, but it just goes to show that nobody in history is "much" better than peak KG. If they're better, they're better by a little.

[freethedevil]

My thoughts so far:

Walton is definitely underrated, since his career value is so low, but he did peak as high as nearly anyone. I think he should be considered a lot more among the best defensive bigs in history, and is very KG-like in terms of his offensive ability with regards to his passing and activity, but KG was the better scorer for sure.

I think the Kareem video demonstrated that he's likely the best offensive big man ever, maybe comparable to Shaq given Shaq's gravity and foul-drawing ability and his own impressive efficiency in the post, and he was a very, very good defensive big man...but short of the all-time anchors like say, Tim Duncan or David Robinson or Bill Walton (during his 1.5 year peak).

I also don't think he's going to actually rank any of these guys. I think he's going to give you 15 of the best peaks in history, and just group them all together as guys that all peaked around the same level, with some small differences here and there.

Like, peak Jordan or peak LeBron vs peak Duncan or peak Garnett...there really isn't a BIG difference between any of those players, they're all outstanding and they all are capable of massive impact...if there is a difference, it's impossible for that difference to be a gargantuan one, that's just not possible when you get to that level of player. Nobody is "much" better than an MVP, best-in-the-game level player.

This is repeated alot but there's like, no basis for it, lol.

I mean, I'm pretty sure you can run numbers that make Garnett look like the GOAT. I wouldn't rank him there personally, but it just goes to show that nobody in history is "much" better than peak KG. If they're better, they're better by a little.

Then do it. I'm willing to bet you can't. Not without major data fudging.

[therealbig3]

This is repeated alot but there's like, no basis for it, lol.

I mean, I'm pretty sure you can run numbers that make Garnett look like the GOAT. I wouldn't rank him there personally, but it just goes to show that nobody in history is "much" better than peak KG. If they're better, they're better by a little.

Then do it. I'm willing to bet you can't. Not without major data fudging.

Well, for starters, KG's RS on/off in 03 and 04 both exceeded +20. Between him, Duncan, Shaq, and LeBron, only Garnett and LeBron exceeded +20 on/off in a given RS, and Garnett not only did it twice, his 03 mark (+23.6) is the highest one out of all of them. To my knowledge, it's actually the highest recorded on/off we have.

Based on that, peak KG has a case to be the most impactful player ever, in terms of raw lift.

It's a weak argument, because I don't think KG has a tenable argument for GOAT, but then prove to me that there's a massive difference between him at his peak and someone like Shaq or LeBron at theirs. I don't think you can make that case convincingly either.

[LukaTheGOAT]

I just started watching, watched the Walton and Kareem videos. Based on this thread, I still have Bird, Magic, Jordan, Robinson, and Hakeem to watch. I think Shaq is the next video, based on his twitter?

So we've got:

-Walton
-Kareem
-Bird
-Magic
-Jordan
-Robinson
-Hakeem
-Shaq

That's 8. I really don't see Kobe making this. The montage with Kobe I'm pretty sure is for Shaq, not Kobe. For the 7 remaining players, you still have players like Russell, Wilt, Duncan, Garnett, Curry, and Durant, who are all players that I'm positive that ElGee ranks higher than Kobe as far as peak. You have Nash, CP3, Dirk, Wade, Malone, and Barkley who are all in the convo as well. Not to mention Oscar, West, and Dr. J.

Spoiler:

After the Shaq video is the Kobe vid. I'm a patreon who just got done the Shaq vid and Kobe was teased at the very end.

[LukaTheGOAT]

I mean, I'm pretty sure you can run numbers that make Garnett look like the GOAT. I wouldn't rank him there personally, but it just goes to show that nobody in history is "much" better than peak KG. If they're better, they're better by a little.

Then do it. I'm willing to bet you can't. Not without major data fudging.

Well, for starters, KG's RS on/off in 03 and 04 both exceeded +20. Between him, Duncan, Shaq, and LeBron, only Garnett and LeBron exceeded +20 on/off in a given RS, and Garnett not only did it twice, his 03 mark (+23.6) is the highest one out of all of them. To my knowledge, it's actually the highest recorded on/off we have.

Based on that, peak KG has a case to be the most impactful player ever, in terms of raw lift.

It's a weak argument, because I don't think KG has a tenable argument for GOAT, but then prove to me that there's a massive difference between him at his peak and someone like Shaq or LeBron at theirs. I don't think you can make that case convincingly either.

I mean on/off is highly dependent on situation. I love Draymond, but because he had a higher peak on/off than most all-time greats doesn't mean he had all-time level peak. Nick Collision crushes on/off compared to many superstars but we know he was just a very good role player. You can have a much better on/off and not be in the same stratosphere as a player as a nother player.

Now interms of KG, if we focus on PS only, I feel confident I can make a pretty good argument that Lebron and Shaq are much beter than KG, and by a notable margin. The numbers I use to do it and how you interpret the meaning of them might be different, but I feel pretty confident there is a lot of stuff out there.

[eminence]

Then do it. I'm willing to bet you can't. Not without major data fudging.

Well, for starters, KG's RS on/off in 03 and 04 both exceeded +20. Between him, Duncan, Shaq, and LeBron, only Garnett and LeBron exceeded +20 on/off in a given RS, and Garnett not only did it twice, his 03 mark (+23.6) is the highest one out of all of them. To my knowledge, it's actually the highest recorded on/off we have.

Based on that, peak KG has a case to be the most impactful player ever, in terms of raw lift.

It's a weak argument, because I don't think KG has a tenable argument for GOAT, but then prove to me that there's a massive difference between him at his peak and someone like Shaq or LeBron at theirs. I don't think you can make that case convincingly either.

I mean on/off is highly dependent on situation. I love Draymond, but because he had a higher peak on/off than most all-time greats doesn't mean he had all-time level peak. Nick Collision crushes on/off compared to many superstars but we know he was just a very good role player. You can have a much better on/off and not be in the same stratosphere as a player as a nother player.

Now interms of KG, if we focus on PS only, I feel confident I can make a pretty good argument that Lebron and Shaq are much beter than KG, and by a notable margin. The numbers I use to do it and how you interpret the meaning of them might be different, but I feel pretty confident there is a lot of stuff out there.

All stats we collect are dependent on situation as far as I'm aware. On large sample on/off is a pretty dang good one in terms of being less dependent on context, and KG's career is essentially tied for the all-time lead with LeBron (they're currently behind mid-career Curry as well, but I'd be surprised if he held his 1/2 pt lead).

[freethedevil]

I mean, I'm pretty sure you can run numbers that make Garnett look like the GOAT. I wouldn't rank him there personally, but it just goes to show that nobody in history is "much" better than peak KG. If they're better, they're better by a little.

Then do it. I'm willing to bet you can't. Not without major data fudging.

Well, for starters, KG's RS on/off in 03 and 04 both exceeded +20. Between him, Duncan, Shaq, and LeBron, only Garnett and LeBron exceeded +20 on/off in a given RS, and Garnett not only did it twice, his 03 mark (+23.6) is the highest one out of all of them. To my knowledge, it's actually the highest recorded on/off we have.

Based on that, peak KG has a case to be the most impactful player ever, in terms of raw lift.

It's a weak argument, because I don't think KG has a tenable argument for GOAT, but then prove to me that there's a massive difference between him at his peak and someone like Shaq or LeBron at theirs. I don't think you can make that case convincingly either.

It's a weak argument because on/off is a team stat. It only measures the lineups you're on. The lack of lineup adjustment means you're basically just looking at W-L.

Here's a couple cases I'd consider more convincing.

1. The cavs prior to drafting lebron won 17 games, they played at a 29 win apce from 08-10 without him, played at a 19 win pace right adter he left for the first 20 games of the season where they tried to prove "they could win a ring before lebron and then after blowing things up they settled for 19 wins on the season.

With Lebron they won 61 and 66 games in b2b seasons.




2. KG's signature season, his 2004 run has him taking the 04 lakers(a lakers team hat got rekt by the pistons in the final) to 6 after his highest quality contributor went out in the wcf. In 2015, one of the worst seasons of lebron' prime, Lebron performed a significantly better version of the feat. Keep in mind the cavs with kyrie and love(and no bron) played 25 win basketball from 15-18. That team ended up playing at a 60 win pace, with lebron in the rs after they finalized their roster. Then in the postseaosn they went 12-3 -kevin love incluing a sweep of a 60 win hawks team. And finally, in the finals, strippd of kyrie irving or kevin love and with garbage shooting, lerbon went 2-1 up on a singnficantly better team than the 04 lakers prompting the warriors to debut their death lineup. A ace in the hole that ended up helping them reach 73 wins the next year.

3. Going off the playoffs, lebron's best thre eyear stretch,(from 08-10) is way above kg's (=6) depsite it including a pre-prime lebron yeat in 2008.

All three suggest the gap "in lift" is singifcant I think.

[LakerLegend]

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