Greatest Peaks series (Thinking Basketball/Ben Taylor)

[70sFan]

Shaq video is one of the best, although I don't like Wilt comparison at the beginning - Wilt couldn't play like Shaq in the 1960s. Ask Gilmore who got called for a lot of BS offensive fouls.

It's true and I remember some games I saw where Wilt or Kareem were called for offensive fouls for some moves we would laugh on today.
Otoh, it doesn't look to me Wilt had the low center of gravity and quickness in the power spins Shaq had.

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Wilt was quite explosive as well.

[freethedevil]

- That Chamberlain comparison so forced and so off point. For some reason, he just keeps some very important nuances (those would change the outcome entirely) in his sleeve to prove his inaccurate point. That was truly annoying.

So I get why he included the Chamberlain comparisons, since those two are regarded as the top "freak of nature" athletes at the five in NBA history. But it seemed like just a way for Taylor to get a few digs in at Chamberlain, since he didn't give any context/reasons for why he was making those comparisons.

TBF, the consluiosn of th evideo is shaq is "the best center ever" and that's the opening question, so there's some relevance there.

[therealbig3]

Would it be possible for a mod to consolidate the available videos on the first page?

[Goudelock]

- That Chamberlain comparison so forced and so off point. For some reason, he just keeps some very important nuances (those would change the outcome entirely) in his sleeve to prove his inaccurate point. That was truly annoying.

So I get why he included the Chamberlain comparisons, since those two are regarded as the top "freak of nature" athletes at the five in NBA history. But it seemed like just a way for Taylor to get a few digs in at Chamberlain, since he didn't give any context/reasons for why he was making those comparisons.

This was not the first time he had some underhanded digs at Chamberlain. If you watch the intro episode to the series, you'd see that Taylor painted Chamberlain as a black hole. I had a message about that in page 3 of this very thread. For some reason, he has a weird bias against Wilt the Stilt.

fwiw, I'm a Wilt guy, but I've had real-life conversations with prominent people who were around when Wilt was playing, and I will say a lot of the complaints Taylor brings up are ones they bring up too. But when they do it, they usually still have a certain level of respect for Chamberlain and what he did, whereas Taylor seems to just really loathe Wilt's game.

Hey Ben Taylor if you're reading this, feel free to correct me.

[Goudelock]

Spoiler:

Shaq video is one of the best, although I don't like Wilt comparison at the beginning - Wilt couldn't play like Shaq in the 1960s. Ask Gilmore who got called for a lot of BS offensive fouls.

It's true and I remember some games I saw where Wilt or Kareem were called for offensive fouls for some moves we would laugh on today.
Otoh, it doesn't look to me Wilt had the low center of gravity and quickness in the power spins Shaq had.

Sent from my Nokia 3210 using RealGM mobile app

Wilt was quite explosive as well.

And that was old-man Wilt too. I kind of agree that Chamberlain's short-area agility probably wasn't as great as young Shaq's though. But it's such a small margin it seems like I'm being overly critical.

[LakerLegend]

Spoiler:

It's true and I remember some games I saw where Wilt or Kareem were called for offensive fouls for some moves we would laugh on today.
Otoh, it doesn't look to me Wilt had the low center of gravity and quickness in the power spins Shaq had.

Sent from my Nokia 3210 using RealGM mobile app

Wilt was quite explosive as well.

And that was old-man Wilt too. I kind of agree that Chamberlain's short-area agility probably wasn't as great as young Shaq's though. But it's such a small margin it seems like I'm being overly critical.

70's fan posting sped up clips like usual. Show me Wilt doing any of the clips I posted on this page:

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=1940751&start=60

There's also an interview with Wilt where he compares himself to Shaq and says Shaq uses his body better in terms of posting up and leveraging his size and power.

[LakerLegend]

I think he did not do a good enough job explaining just how bad of a defender Shaq is compared to the all time greats. His rim protecting, which was his best defensive asset, is worse than most elite rim protectors, and his weakness to PnR, stretch big shooting and switching paint him as a big weakness that's gotta be covered on that end. I stand firmly that Kareem has the better peak than Shaq.

Shaq anchored great, great defenses. Provided massive rim protection. He wasn't a bad defender compared to the all-time greats at all.

This is also a guy who would lock up Duncan in crunchtime often.

Pick and roll defense was a weakness, but that was mostly in the years he added massive weight to combat the physical punishment he took.

[Litano]

I think the Wilt comparison is just a matter of giving your points proper context-- like Goudelock mentions, Wilt and Shaq are considered two of the most dominant athletic forces in the history of the NBA. Ben is right to say that Shaq used his athleticism in ways that Wilt couldn't, and that's an important distinction between their respective games. But you can't just bring up this disparity in power game and leave it at that: you need to contextualize that difference, by bringing in the racism that Wilt experienced and the differences in officiating. In other words, I see why a person might make this comparison, but I think what it actually tells us is a lot more complicated than Ben is implying here. It's also worth noting that Wilt used his athleticism in ways that Shaq could not, especially on defense.

[colts18]

Wilt's post moves look awkward compared to Shaq's. Shaq always felt smooth when he did his spin moves. I never ever got the sense that Shaq was a 7 foot stiff even in his later years. Wilt's legs and arms look dangly when he does post moves. He has less control of his body than Shaq.

[Snakebites]

Surprised Kobe is next. Always felt Duncan and KG both peaked earlier than him.

[freethedevil]

Surprised Kobe is next. Always felt Duncan and KG both peaked earlier than him.

The chances of ben doing duncan and kg are as close to 100% as you coudl realistically hope. He has both peaking way higher.

[Snakebites]

Surprised Kobe is next. Always felt Duncan and KG both peaked earlier than him.

The chances of ben doing duncan and kg are as close to 100% as you coudl realistically hope. He has both peaking way higher.

I’m certain they’ll both be in the series- they’re in the intro.

My point was he’s doing them more or less in chronological order, and I have Kobe peaking at a later year than Duncan or KG.

[freethedevil]

Surprised Kobe is next. Always felt Duncan and KG both peaked earlier than him.

The chances of ben doing duncan and kg are as close to 100% as you coudl realistically hope. He has both peaking way higher.

I’m certain they’ll both be in the series- they’re in the intro.

My point was he’s doing them more or less in chronological order, and I have Kobe peaking at a later year than Duncan or KG.

Oh. Well it hoguth he had his peak at 08....did he suddenly get high on 01?

[Snakebites]

The chances of ben doing duncan and kg are as close to 100% as you coudl realistically hope. He has both peaking way higher.

I’m certain they’ll both be in the series- they’re in the intro.

My point was he’s doing them more or less in chronological order, and I have Kobe peaking at a later year than Duncan or KG.

Oh. Well it hoguth he had his peak at 08....did he suddenly get high on 01?

I don’t know where he has any of the peaks until the videos come out.

To me Duncan’s peak is early 2000s, KG is 2004 (one of the best individual seasons ever IMO), and Kobe is 2008 or around there.

I think the most likely explanation is they he’s chosen an earlier peak for Kobe. He mentions his defensive peak in the Shaq video as coinciding with Shaq.

Plus he went slightly out of order already with the DRob video before Hakeem.

[Ryoga Hibiki]

The things kept me from rating the O'Neal episode on the same level as the Olajuwon episode;
- That Chamberlain comparison so forced and so off point. For some reason, he just keeps some very important nuances (those would change the outcome entirely) in his sleeve to prove his inaccurate point. That was truly annoying.
- He let O'Neal easy off the hook for his defense. O'Neal went through one of the easiest positional competitions. O'Neal faced pretty capable frontcourts, don't get me wrong. What I'm saying is that was when O'Neal was on offense and they were on defense. O'Neal wasn't tested by a big that could score properly on defense in those seasons. It should've been noted somewhere in there. For someone whose defense entirely collapsed when he was asked to perform to his limits on offense (2000 NBA Finals), this was such an important angle to mention.

Is this a joke? In what planet would shaq, someone whose greatest strength defneisvely is rim protect and psot d, have an easier time defneisvely in a league littered with guard and wing talent than a league dominated by bigs lol. The time machine arguments for players in the 60's being unfairly disavdantaged continue to baffle me.

well, he was resting on defense, in the early 2000.

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[freethedevil]

I’m certain they’ll both be in the series- they’re in the intro.

My point was he’s doing them more or less in chronological order, and I have Kobe peaking at a later year than Duncan or KG.

Oh. Well it hoguth he had his peak at 08....did he suddenly get high on 01?

I don’t know where he has any of the peaks until the videos come out.

To me Duncan’s peak is early 2000s, KG is 2004 (one of the best individual seasons ever IMO), and Kobe is 2008 or around there.

I think the most likely explanation is they he’s chosen an earlier peak for Kobe. He mentions his defensive peak in the Shaq video as coinciding with Shaq.

Plus he went slightly out of order already with the DRob video before Hakeem.

i mean all his writeups for backpicks had season evaluation charts.

[LukaTheGOAT]

Watch on YouTube

Interesting to see Ben potray shaq as high iq to wilt. Was suprised by his rs impact, that wowy is righ tin line with peak Jordan's rs despite playong on better teams. On the other hand, hime being able to be tired out by offenses shoooting long two's doesn' tbode well for how he woudl fare against modern schemes. Impressive off-the-ball making me wonder why ben only has him at +1 port

He has Shaq at 0 port actually.

[70sFan]

70's fan posting sped up clips like usual.

I don't change speed of my clips, what are you talking about? Sometimes 1960s tapes have incorrect speed, but it's mostly slowed down if anything...

There's also an interview with Wilt where he compares himself to Shaq and says Shaq uses his body better in terms of posting up and leveraging his size and power.

That's true and Shaq did it better - but Wilt wouldn't be able to do that in the 1960s. Trust me, charges were far more common in the post back then. I can show you multiple examples of Wilt charges if you wish.

It's also important to note that Wilt used his body far better in other parts of the game - particulary defense and rebounding.

[70sFan]

Spoiler:

It's true and I remember some games I saw where Wilt or Kareem were called for offensive fouls for some moves we would laugh on today.
Otoh, it doesn't look to me Wilt had the low center of gravity and quickness in the power spins Shaq had.

Sent from my Nokia 3210 using RealGM mobile app

Wilt was quite explosive as well.

And that was old-man Wilt too. I kind of agree that Chamberlain's short-area agility probably wasn't as great as young Shaq's though. But it's such a small margin it seems like I'm being overly critical.

Yeah and if we want to be honest, we should also mention that Wilt used his athleticism better in other areas - particulary on defense and on the glass.

[70sFan]

I think he did not do a good enough job explaining just how bad of a defender Shaq is compared to the all time greats. His rim protecting, which was his best defensive asset, is worse than most elite rim protectors, and his weakness to PnR, stretch big shooting and switching paint him as a big weakness that's gotta be covered on that end. I stand firmly that Kareem has the better peak than Shaq.

Shaq anchored great, great defenses. Provided massive rim protection. He wasn't a bad defender compared to the all-time greats at all.

This is also a guy who would lock up Duncan in crunchtime often.

Pick and roll defense was a weakness, but that was mostly in the years he added massive weight to combat the physical punishment he took.

Shaq is the weakest defender among top 10 centers ever (other than Moses). That doesn't mean that he was bad, but he was clearly inferior to other all-time greats.

Shaq's P&R defense was weak even in the 1990s when he didn't weigh more than 325 lbs.