Greatest Peaks series (Thinking Basketball/Ben Taylor)

[LukaTheGOAT]

It's not a greatest peaks video, but...

Watch on YouTube

[frica]

It's not a greatest peaks video, but...

Watch on YouTube

I did ask for it a few pages back.

[Ryoga Hibiki]

It's not a greatest peaks video, but...

Watch on YouTube

Not too many insights in this video, actually.
I think one of the worst he did so far, in his channel.

[SNPA]

yes well, the pronblem here is his effiency was awful for the volume attempted

If he attempted less than 2 threes per36, then he basically didn't shoot threes. Why do you think that lesser volume caused better efficiency? A lot of Bird's threes were late shotclock shots or heaves. The less he shot regular threes, the lower his efficiency would be.

I think that you use modern way of thinking for 1980s player here, which is wrong way to evaluate him.

we do, its like 34% on vastly higher volume. And ofc even bad defenses from 08-10 cared signficantly more about threes than most defenses in the 90's or 80's.

So the difference isn't that big?

if bird was good a three-point shooter as kobe bryant this might be a compelling point. Everyone's shooting is going to be used better, you're acting like bird didn't have a top 3 infrnstructure in the league when he played. How does it matter "he's being utilized better" when everyone in the league is?

Well, so you think that Bird was weak shooter because of what Taylor showed in his video, despite so many evidences that he was really good but utilized in wrong way. I don't think that's true, I view Bird as excellent shooter. Good shooters would fare better than ever in this era.

Kobe was actually forced to play in a scheme that didn't come close to maximizing his value or effiency being forced to take the toughest selection of shots in league history.

I don't think anyone forced Kobe to take these shots - it's just how Kobe played.

Bird got amplified as a rebounder and defender by playing alongside two bigs,

Bird's defense was hurt by playing next to another bigman if anything. He should have played as a second bigman on defense, but instead he was often forced to defend perimter players.

got covered by not having to handle the ball nearly as much as say, kobe did,

That's not always a bad thing. I know you're high on ball-handlers, but some players could impact offense in different ways.

and was given the highest iq teamamtes of anyone in the league. Bird was given the perfect situation, kobe was not

I don't think it's true and I think that 2008-10 Lakers had better collection of high IQ players than 1980s Celtics. I don't view Parish as smart player for example, certainly not on Gasol's or Odom's level in this aspect.

which part? Shooting? Kobe's better from 3.

Yeah, this is one of the aspects. He's not better from three, he just played in an era when three is started to be seen as major weapon, not a gimmick.

Inside positioning? Yeah, absoultely zero reason to think Kobe isn't the more imposing presence. Signifcantly stronger, lower center of gravity, much better footwork.

Bird is much bigger and his strength is underrated. Bird was better post player than Kobe.

Screens? Bird was setting a couple screens a game, and doesn't really have the frame to be nearly effective as say KG as a screener.

Could you show me the stats that show Bird setting two screens per game?
Bird is good and very willing screener. He doesn't have to be on KG level to be much better than Kobe.

Bird setting 5-6 screens a game(probably not as well as a big like garnett) is not going to make him a better off-ball player like kobe who was quicker, stronger, had better footwork and had better gravity from outside.[/b]

Yeah, also because of offensive rebounding and touch passes.

What? Bigs have not gotten smaller or less imposing. Anthony Davis, Joel Embid, Rudy Gobert are all sturdy, rock solid, towers with incredible wingspans, vertical reach, and good center. of gravity. Hell if we're talking about Bird here, why wouldn't Giannis of Draymond be able to do the trick? Heck, why are you even sure about bird being able to impose himself physically on durant?

Bird is not going to be having "less of a problem" against simmons-embid, ad-lebron-gasol, giannis-lopez, ect. Hell, even kawhi-pg-ibaka or wiseman-draymond-wiggins probably won't be an easy test come playoff time. Just because--some teams-- are going all in on small ball does not mean there aren't teams with historically impressive collections of bigs.

A lot of teams play small nowadays. Besides, I'm not saying that the league lacks size - what I'm saying is that rim protectors spend far less time inside. You can't deny that.

what? transition offense is easily countered by elie postseason defenses. Bird's best skill, trasnition passing is very much something modern defenses have been geared to counter. It's obviously alot easier to counter dual scoring/passing threats when you're allowed to hedge. Check the 10 celtics vs the cavs, the 13 pacers vs the 13 heat, or broken-back lebron-tt- and delladova against a vastly better shooter/off-ball player(and signifcantly better ball handler) than bird+goated off-ball passing+league best shooting. Bird is nowhere close to unstoppable as a player. For **** sake, the pistons taked the celtics offense by 13 points with an arm tied around their back. The spurs with their tika tka and lights out shooting were given major headaches by both the thunder and the mavs. It is absolutely doable and has been done. Bird's passing is not remotely unstoppable. Elite postseaon defenses will slow bird-led offenses down because they have done it to better versions of the 86 celtics year in and year out.

Bird's best skill isn't transition passing.

70’s fan is so patient.

Bird couldn’t physically impose himself on Durant? Kobe was stronger? Playing out of position next to two bigs helped Bird’s rebounding? The takes on Bird’s passing. Wow. Just wow. Nothing more I can say.

[Snakebites]

I'm definitely really eager to see how he evaluates KG.

His peak was so freaking good. I anticipate he'll say something similar to what he said about DRob- that he was a ceiling raising player who was miscast as a floor raiser in his prime- but I consider KG more talented than DRob. Ultimate example of a guy whose skills scale really well on better teams.

[GYK]

I got a list post 74. These are the only seasons someone was the clear cut best player in the league. There has been seasons when someone was the best but the gap was far closer. These seasons are unarguable IMO.

74-76 ABA Dr. J. ABA doesn’t count but just mentioning.

76,77,79 Kareem
85 & 86 Bird
88-93 Jordan
94 & 95 DRob(I know narrative but look how much losing is happening on this list).
00 Shaq
03 TMac(the most underrated season of all time)
04 KG
09-13 Lebron
14 Durant
16 Curry

Since 74(47 years) there has been 23 seasons that stand above all others. Certainly in context of the season they were performed. Those are the ten men(since 74) who have ever truly been the very best in the league.

[70sFan]

I got a list post 74. These are the only seasons someone was the clear cut best player in the league. There has been seasons when someone was the best but the gap was far closer. These seasons are unarguable IMO.

74-76 ABA Dr. J. ABA doesn’t count but just mentioning.

76,77,79 Kareem
85 & 86 Bird
88-93 Jordan
94 & 95 DRob(I know narrative but look how much losing is happening on this list).
00 Shaq
03 TMac(the most underrated season of all time)
04 KG
09-13 Lebron
14 Durant
16 Curry

Since 74(47 years) there has been 23 seasons that stand above all others. Certainly in context of the season they were performed. Those are the ten men(since 74) who have ever truly been the very best in the league.

What's Tmac case over peak Duncan? I'd love to hear that...

[GYK]

I got a list post 74. These are the only seasons someone was the clear cut best player in the league. There has been seasons when someone was the best but the gap was far closer. These seasons are unarguable IMO.

74-76 ABA Dr. J. ABA doesn’t count but just mentioning.

76,77,79 Kareem
85 & 86 Bird
88-93 Jordan
94 & 95 DRob(I know narrative but look how much losing is happening on this list).
00 Shaq
03 TMac(the most underrated season of all time)
04 KG
09-13 Lebron
14 Durant
16 Curry

Since 74(47 years) there has been 23 seasons that stand above all others. Certainly in context of the season they were performed. Those are the ten men(since 74) who have ever truly been the very best in the league.

What's Tmac case over peak Duncan? I'd love to hear that...

Like every person here lead their league in PER, WS, WS/48, BPM and VORP. While every single one of those stats have static, lack context, value different things and should be taken at face value the extreme coincidence to lead the league in all these would be odd to ignore.
His massive load(ha!) while pressuring the rim and efficiency from everywhere in all scenarios. He was drastically more efficient and prolific from the rest of the league. .56TS% is eh today but that was +.45TS%. His 32.1 was responsible for 32% of the 98.5 the Magic were scoring. His 5.5 assist seem standard for a lead wing but at just 2.6 TO’s considering his scoring is massively impressive. Even more so when the 30% assist percentage and 8.4 TO% is acknowledged. Offensively a three level triple threat marvel who wasn’t sinking the ship defensively. It’s a 16Curry/14Durant like season on a terrible team.
Duncan is great find the post I will praise him and explain why a low 20’s not an passing big would still be one of if not the best players today but 03 TMac was in a room of one(lot of people can’t imagine it today but they don’t account defense, rebounding or the context of the team).

[LukaTheGOAT]

It's not a greatest peaks video, but...

Watch on YouTube

Not too many insights in this video, actually.
I think one of the worst he did so far, in his channel.

He probably should've waited longer than 20 games to make the video, but I guess he wanted to capitalize on the Lamelo Ball hype.

[drza]

Just saying hello. Haven't been on the board in months, work pulled me away from the Top 100 project mid-stream and I'm just now getting to check out the board again. I'm loving that there's a 34-page thread going on about Ben's peaks project, with a ton of analysis and opinions to dig into. Great stuff

[LukaTheGOAT]

Just saying hello. Haven't been on the board in months, work pulled me away from the Top 100 project mid-stream and I'm just now getting to check out the board again. I'm loving that there's a 34-page thread going on about Ben's peaks project, with a ton of analysis and opinions to dig into. Great stuff

It's ironic you come back just in time before the official release of the Kevin Garnett video. I'm sure you'll enjoy that discussion.

[PistolPeteJR]

Surprised Kobe is next. Always felt Duncan and KG both peaked earlier than him.

I thought the same, but I think the anniversary of his passing might have had something to do with releasing it when he did.

[PistolPeteJR]

I think it depends on how you define basketball strength and they are close in every possible aspect anyway.

Anyway, the strongest player ever played between these two

Wilt was built like a gazelle (all legs) whereas Shaq just had a way bigger, umm...post thrust. Lower center of gravity - that's what I meant. We might need to include Yao in the conversation for strongest ever. That guy was massive.

But Wilt pushed around players with lower center of gravity without much problems. Yao is a good mention, but I'd definitely have him below Wilt/Gilmore/Shaq tier.

I didn’t watch him play, but doesn’t Thurmond get into tier 1?

[Vladimir777]

It's not a greatest peaks video, but...

Watch on YouTube

Not too many insights in this video, actually.
I think one of the worst he did so far, in his channel.

Maybe it's just because I'm very new to his channel and because I'm not a basketball expert, but I thought it was an interesting video. I'm watching the Wizards/Charlotte game now, and I'm definitely focusing on Lamelo in a way I wouldn't have otherwise.

[70sFan]

Wilt was built like a gazelle (all legs) whereas Shaq just had a way bigger, umm...post thrust. Lower center of gravity - that's what I meant. We might need to include Yao in the conversation for strongest ever. That guy was massive.

But Wilt pushed around players with lower center of gravity without much problems. Yao is a good mention, but I'd definitely have him below Wilt/Gilmore/Shaq tier.

I didn’t watch him play, but doesn’t Thurmond get into tier 1?

Not for me, Thurmond was physical defender with excellent fundamentals and freakish length but I don't think he was nearly as strong as these three. He was considerably smaller than them as well.

[frica]

Thurmond rumoured to have a greater wingspan than Wilt right?

[70sFan]

Thurmond rumoured to have a greater wingspan than Wilt right?

Yeah, indeed and I don't think it's unreasonable to believe that. Thurmond had freakish length, he could contest shots without leaving the floor. That's what made his such a good post defender.

[Ryoga Hibiki]

It's not a greatest peaks video, but...

Watch on YouTube

Not too many insights in this video, actually.
I think one of the worst he did so far, in his channel.

Maybe it's just because I'm very new to his channel and because I'm not a basketball expert, but I thought it was an interesting video. I'm watching the Wizards/Charlotte game now, and I'm definitely focusing on Lamelo in a way I wouldn't have otherwise.

I think it's a matter of expectations

[Odinn21]

The next one is Garnett 2003-04.

Edit;
Watched the episode and I think it was good, but as someone who has been a side to a Duncan-Garnett comparison for nearly 2 decades, I didn't like it TBH due to some small and unnecessary jabs.
This is an actual statement in the episode;
"And amazingly when both KG and Duncan were on the court for those 12 games, their teams scored the exact same number of points."
(He was talking about 12 games in 2002, 2003 and 2004 regular seasons.)
Like Garnett was playing with bums and Duncan was having a blast like it was 2014 Spurs and not the early '00s Spurs going from old broken structure to new inexperienced structure.
Also those games had 2.5 ppg gap. It wasn't like that happened when the gap was 15 ppg...
I just don't see the point of this without a bias. We also have +/- data for Garnett vs. O'Neal, Duncan vs. O'Neal. O'Neal episode didn't have such details and I'm sure Duncan will get none too, at least not positively.

Also the part on Garnett's offense was mostly "but he didn't have good help".
He mentions the Wolves having subpar three point shooting was a part of it. He compared Garnett's situation to how Olajuwon succeeded when Olajuwon had proper outside shooting and how Garnett didn't have that. Maybe, just maybe Garnett's scoring gravity wasn't good and big enough to put his teammates optimal positions. I mean, come on...
This was a great post about what I'm talking about;
https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?p=86037180#p86037180

[AdagioPace]

The next one is Garnett 2003-04.

Edit;
Watched the episode and I think it was good, but as someone who has been a side to a Duncan-Garnett comparison for nearly 2 decades, I didn't like it TBH due to some small and unnecessary jabs.
This is an actual statement in the episode;
"And amazingly when both KG and Duncan were on the court for those 12 games, their teams scored the exact same number of points."
(He was talking about 12 games in 2002, 2003 and 2004 regular seasons.)
Like Garnett was playing with bums and Duncan was having a blast like it was 2014 Spurs and not the early '00s Spurs going from old broken structure to new inexperienced structure.
Also those games had 2.5 ppg gap. It wasn't like that happened when the gap was 15 ppg...
I just don't see the point of this without a bias. We also have +/- data for Garnett vs. O'Neal, Duncan vs. O'Neal. O'Neal episode didn't have such details and I'm sure Duncan will get none too, at least not positively.

Also the part on Garnett's offense was mostly "but he didn't have good help".
He mentions the Wolves having subpar three point shooting was a part of it. He compared Garnett's situation to how Olajuwon succeeded when Olajuwon had proper outside shooting and how Garnett didn't have that. Maybe, just maybe Garnett's scoring gravity wasn't good and big enough to put his teammates optimal positions. I mean, come on...
This was a great post about what I'm talking about;
https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?p=86037180#p86037180

Garnett was in a sort of purgatory, offensively.
Qualitatively speaking, not enough inside presence (Duncan), not enough outside pull (Dirk), not as good as Jokic as a passer.
Anyway, isn't Taylor going chronologically anymore?