Greatest Peaks series (Thinking Basketball/Ben Taylor)

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Re: Greatest Peaks series (Thinking Basketball/Ben Taylor) 

Post#701 » by Peregrine01 » Mon Feb 15, 2021 7:26 pm

I credit this forum for making me appreciate KG a lot more. It's sad that he didn't play on better teams during his prime.
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Re: Greatest Peaks series (Thinking Basketball/Ben Taylor) 

Post#702 » by 70sFan » Mon Feb 15, 2021 7:32 pm

KG's defensive section is probably the best one overall (though I liked Walton's and Hakeem's a lot as well). It's fantastic video, arguably the best one overall and it's very detailed (we know why).

Still, can't wait to see Duncan's video - this will be pure joy to watch for me!
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Re: Greatest Peaks series (Thinking Basketball/Ben Taylor) 

Post#703 » by Goudelock » Mon Feb 15, 2021 8:30 pm

70sFan wrote:KG's defensive section is probably the best one overall (though I liked Walton's and Hakeem's a lot as well). It's fantastic video, arguably the best one overall and it's very detailed (we know why).

Still, can't wait to see Duncan's video - this will be pure joy to watch for me!


I'd like to imagine that his "notes" for the video were just old RealGM posts from 2010.

I'm excited for the Duncan one too. And did anyone else catch that the commentator called Duncan a "center" in the clip at the very end. I have to imagine that was an intentional thing by Taylor, and he''s probably going to address Duncan being considered a PF at some point in the video.
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Re: Greatest Peaks series (Thinking Basketball/Ben Taylor) 

Post#704 » by 70sFan » Mon Feb 15, 2021 8:39 pm

Goudelock wrote:
70sFan wrote:KG's defensive section is probably the best one overall (though I liked Walton's and Hakeem's a lot as well). It's fantastic video, arguably the best one overall and it's very detailed (we know why).

Still, can't wait to see Duncan's video - this will be pure joy to watch for me!


I'd like to imagine that his "notes" for the video were just old RealGM posts from 2010.

I'm excited for the Duncan one too. And did anyone else catch that the commentator called Duncan a "center" in the clip at the very end. I have to imagine that was an intentional thing by Taylor, and he''s probably going to address Duncan being considered a PF at some point in the video.

To be honest, I also consider Duncan a center at this point. You can argue that he had his best seasons next to Admiral, but for most of his career he played clearly a center role next to PFs.
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Re: Greatest Peaks series (Thinking Basketball/Ben Taylor) 

Post#705 » by PistolPeteJR » Mon Feb 15, 2021 9:14 pm

The KG video was terrific. Best one so far for sure. The breakdowns and the eloquence in which they were broken down was really, really great.

He doesn't really mention it bluntly, but for those who really remember KG from when he was a young pup until he hit his peak and prime, was there some kind of stubbornness on his part pertaining to post play development? Taylor mentions that he worked with McHale, which we know, but that KG's bread and butter in the post was turnaround jumpers more often than not. While he was efficient from there, it limited his overall scoring game, and as a result, limited his team's as well.
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Re: Greatest Peaks series (Thinking Basketball/Ben Taylor) 

Post#706 » by Goudelock » Mon Feb 15, 2021 10:00 pm

70sFan wrote:
Goudelock wrote:
70sFan wrote:KG's defensive section is probably the best one overall (though I liked Walton's and Hakeem's a lot as well). It's fantastic video, arguably the best one overall and it's very detailed (we know why).

Still, can't wait to see Duncan's video - this will be pure joy to watch for me!


I'd like to imagine that his "notes" for the video were just old RealGM posts from 2010.

I'm excited for the Duncan one too. And did anyone else catch that the commentator called Duncan a "center" in the clip at the very end. I have to imagine that was an intentional thing by Taylor, and he''s probably going to address Duncan being considered a PF at some point in the video.

To be honest, I also consider Duncan a center at this point. You can argue that he had his best seasons next to Admiral, but for most of his career he played clearly a center role next to PFs.


FWIW my father has said that he always thought that Robinson played more like a power forward, at least on offense and that Duncan was more like the center.
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Re: Greatest Peaks series (Thinking Basketball/Ben Taylor) 

Post#707 » by ShotCreator » Mon Feb 15, 2021 10:09 pm

Unbelievable. This is definitively better than his GOAT list somehow.

After all this time of thinking about Garnett, his career, and these hypotheticals Ben Taylor managed to have me come away with a new vibe and perspective on him.

Taylor is gifted. Unbelievable analytical mind.
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Re: Greatest Peaks series (Thinking Basketball/Ben Taylor) 

Post#708 » by Texas Chuck » Mon Feb 15, 2021 10:10 pm

70sFan wrote:
Goudelock wrote:
70sFan wrote:KG's defensive section is probably the best one overall (though I liked Walton's and Hakeem's a lot as well). It's fantastic video, arguably the best one overall and it's very detailed (we know why).

Still, can't wait to see Duncan's video - this will be pure joy to watch for me!


I'd like to imagine that his "notes" for the video were just old RealGM posts from 2010.

I'm excited for the Duncan one too. And did anyone else catch that the commentator called Duncan a "center" in the clip at the very end. I have to imagine that was an intentional thing by Taylor, and he''s probably going to address Duncan being considered a PF at some point in the video.

To be honest, I also consider Duncan a center at this point. You can argue that he had his best seasons next to Admiral, but for most of his career he played clearly a center role next to PFs.


I think the first half of his career its fair to call him a PF. Because beyond just Admiral, he played with Rasho as the center from 03-06, then Elson/Oberto for a year then even after that Splitter was doing a lot of center things.

Should probably just call him a big. He would have been a center on almost every other team, but Pop really stuck with playing 2 traditional bigs long after most teams had abandoned it.

But I have no issues with anyone who thinks of him as a PF for big chunks of his career. And hate that its brought up ever in the context of KG because who cares who the GOAT PF is.
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Re: Greatest Peaks series (Thinking Basketball/Ben Taylor) 

Post#709 » by Odinn21 » Mon Feb 15, 2021 10:25 pm

BTW, I might be spending too much time with these stuff and talking about more middle ground people because I just can't fathom these "Olajuwon/Garnett is underrated!" comments. I'd like to believe I'm fair to them and the people I have conversations with also have been fair to them.

In Garnett's case, he was a unique case. His personality made him not underrated. Many people had him over Duncan and Nowitzki for many years simply due to his personality. But his game was underrated. It was such an odd case at the time.
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Per75 is efficiency rate, not actual production.
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Re: Greatest Peaks series (Thinking Basketball/Ben Taylor) 

Post#710 » by TurinTurambar » Mon Feb 15, 2021 11:24 pm

PistolPeteJR wrote:The KG video was terrific. Best one so far for sure. The breakdowns and the eloquence in which they were broken down was really, really great.

He doesn't really mention it bluntly, but for those who really remember KG from when he was a young pup until he hit his peak and prime, was there some kind of stubbornness on his part pertaining to post play development? Taylor mentions that he worked with McHale, which we know, but that KG's bread and butter in the post was turnaround jumpers more often than not. While he was efficient from there, it limited his overall scoring game, and as a result, limited his team's as well.


Yeah, I've been a fan of this series to this point as well, and the KG entry is possibly my favorite as well.

As far as Garnett's post play, I remember an interview Kevin did (might have been the All the Smoke podcast) where he tells a story about working with McHale on one of McHale's famous post moves, but it was one where McHale used his unusually broad shoulders in a way that the differently proportioned Garnett couldn't replicate.

Taylor also provides some good examples of how Garnett could get bumped off of spots in the post, or manipulated one direction or another on drives.

One of the things that I was always enamored by with KG was how he really looked like a 7-foot wing when he played, not just in terms of the style of his game, but physically as well.
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Re: Greatest Peaks series (Thinking Basketball/Ben Taylor) 

Post#711 » by MO12msu » Tue Feb 16, 2021 1:25 am

KG video was really good and really illustrated KG's elite anticipation and ability to cover ground.

Loved that he described KG's approach to finishing at the rim similar to that of a guard who tries to avoid going through contact. And I remember watching some KG game (against the Spurs maybe) a few months ago and thinking to myself, "man he's super active but he's jumping a lot on pump fakes." Glad that Ben pointed that out.
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Re: Greatest Peaks series (Thinking Basketball/Ben Taylor) 

Post#712 » by Djoker » Tue Feb 16, 2021 6:46 am

Just watched the Garnett video. It was amazing how well he broke down the Big Ticket's game. I really do wonder how his career would have been looked at if had better team at his peak and actually won a title in Minny. He really has a game that fits in just about any system I can think of. Such a diverse skillset...
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Re: Greatest Peaks series (Thinking Basketball/Ben Taylor) 

Post#713 » by HeartBreakKid » Tue Feb 16, 2021 9:57 am

Got to love how in Garnett's passing highlights his teammates are missing lol. Pretty much sums up Minnesota.
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Re: Greatest Peaks series (Thinking Basketball/Ben Taylor) 

Post#714 » by theonlyclutch » Tue Feb 16, 2021 10:40 am

It's hard to believe that MIN could have such a transcendent defensive talent for such a long time but still field mediocre defensive teams, what a cursed, incompetent franchise. I wanna see how KAT would look on some other team solely because MIN has such a bad track record with great players/talents.
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Re: Greatest Peaks series (Thinking Basketball/Ben Taylor) 

Post#715 » by freethedevil » Tue Feb 16, 2021 10:56 am

theonlyclutch wrote:It's hard to believe that MIN could have such a transcendent defensive talent for such a long time but still field mediocre defensive teams, what a cursed, incompetent franchise. I wanna see how KAT would look on some other team solely because MIN has such a bad track record with great players/talents.

Minesotta have been godo with kal anthony towns playing this season. The only problemis he never plays..... :(
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Re: Greatest Peaks series (Thinking Basketball/Ben Taylor) 

Post#716 » by Odinn21 » Tue Feb 16, 2021 2:52 pm

Duncan's episode is also nice. Probably not Garnett episode level nice, Garnett's episode felt more nuanced than this. But it was good nonetheless. I think Olajuwon video will stay as the best of the series for me.

As a Duncan fan, the only thing I'd criticize is that how he showcased "changes from weak to strong defenses" graph. According to the graph, Duncan's scoring suffered for 5.0 ts and 2.3 or 2.4 points per 75 against strong defenses compared to what he had against weak defenses from 2001 to 2005.
But there were only 3 playoff series Duncan played against -2.0 or better rDRtg team in that time span, and all of them were impacted from an injury;
2002 Lakers series; David Robinson was injured for better part of the series and Duncan was sharing minutes with Malik Rose to defend Shaquille O'Neal, yet Duncan still scored 29.0 ppg on .517 ts while the rest of the team scored 56.8 ppg on .474 ts.
2005 Nuggets series; Duncan was recovering from an injury (sprained ankle) and it was just a pretty standard series for an 8 SRS team ending in 5 games.
2005 Pistons series; Duncan was still recovering from the injury, he was having mobility issues against a goat level defensive team with goat level defensive frontcourt (Big Ben, Sheed, McDyess).

I don’t think the other players on that graph had such injury impacted series ratio. Their efficiency suffered on merit considerably more.

BTW, Duncan was the last big man on the list according to his statement. So, no Nowitzki.
The issue with per75 numbers;
36pts on 27 fga/9 fta in 36 mins, does this mean he'd keep up the efficiency to get 48pts on 36fga/12fta in 48 mins?
The answer; NO. He's human, not a linearly working machine.
Per75 is efficiency rate, not actual production.
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Re: Greatest Peaks series (Thinking Basketball/Ben Taylor) 

Post#717 » by eminence » Tue Feb 16, 2021 3:35 pm

Odinn21 wrote:BTW, Duncan was the last big man on the list according to his statement. So, no Nowitzki.



No Draymond either :noway:
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Re: Greatest Peaks series (Thinking Basketball/Ben Taylor) 

Post#718 » by AWGXXX » Tue Feb 16, 2021 3:38 pm

therealbig3 wrote:So if this is a top 15 post-merger, and Garnett and Duncan seem like the next two to get in, this is what we have so far (chronologically):

1. Walton
2. Kareem
3. Bird
4. Magic
5. Jordan
6. Robinson
7. Olajuwon
8. Shaq
9. Kobe
10. Garnett
11. Duncan
12. ?
13. ?
14. ?
15. ?

LeBron is obviously going to make it, and I think Curry will make it as well. So that leaves two spots. Who do we think is going to get those? And if this is in general chronological order, then that leaves us 2 guys that are within the last 10-15 years or so. Would think it comes down to 2 of Wade, Dirk, Harden, Durant, CP3, and Nash. Maybe Giannis is in the mix as well.

And if we are firmly into the 2000s/2010s at this point, any omissions from earlier eras that surprise anyone? Cuz it looks like Ewing, both Malones, and Barkley missed the cut, and I know that he thought highly of Barkley and K. Malone specifically, at least in previous projects. He at one point had K. Malone with a similar peak to Kobe, and Barkley with a higher peak than either, but he probably did re-evaluate them and came to the conclusion that Kobe peaked higher than either.

Ewing did seem like a little worse version of Robinson, on both sides of the ball, but he had one graphic in there that demonstrated that Ewing was the best out of all the 90s bigs in terms of defending shots at the rim, in terms of opponent FG%. So I'm a little surprised that a defensive beast like him got left out.
Im not sure where he actually said it was going to be a top 15 or if it was just going to be in 15 parts(I don't have the patreon) meaning if it's the second there is only going to be one outside of LeBron/Steph and with the announcement of LeBron's vid(12-13) being after the Duncan one i'm guessing he's not doing Dwade(09-10) unfortunately because that would've came first probably. So my guess is Durant after LeBron

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Re: Greatest Peaks series (Thinking Basketball/Ben Taylor) 

Post#719 » by KTM_2813 » Tue Feb 16, 2021 5:45 pm

Loved the KG video. My favorite videos in the series have been the ones about the more underappreciated players. Also, I heard or read somewhere that the last video will be a post-mortem where Taylor sums everything up. If we know there will be 15 videos total, it's possible that perhaps there will only be four more player specific ones followed by the concluding video.
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Re: Greatest Peaks series (Thinking Basketball/Ben Taylor) 

Post#720 » by parsnips33 » Wed Feb 17, 2021 1:00 am

Loved the KG video.

Would be really interested in a series focused more on teams than individuals, I don't know if others feel similarly. Seems like a natural next step after identifying the skillsets of different players is how do they all come together.

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