Moderators: Clyde Frazier, Doctor MJ, trex_8063, penbeast0, PaulieWal
penbeast0 wrote:I've been supporting Curry for a while. Short prime but very dominant.
For the next slot, I have Pettit then either Paul or Stockton. OF the 3, Pettit is the only one who was ever the best player in the league, albeit for the short stretch between Mikan and Russell who easily eclipsed him. And, during the strong league stretch of his career, he was a clear level above every except Russell, Wilt, West, Oscar and Baylor. It's close between Baylor and Pettit and they were contemporaries who both played the PF forward over the same period generally speaking (I have Baylor as more of a PF type than LaRusso) though Baylor was a 4/3 while Pettit was a 4/5. As expected from their positions, Pettit was the better rebounder while Baylor was the better ballhandler. But Pettit has two edges on Baylor that give him the advantage for me. First, he was the more efficient scorer, particularly relative to league since he played his first few years in a much less efficient league than Baylor played his post-Pettit career. Second, from what I've been able to gather from their contemporaries, Pettit was the stronger defender. So, I have Pettit over Baylor.
Still open to the Paul v. Stockton debate. Both provide a terrific lift to their team's offense from what I can see. Paul has a superior turnover efficiency, Stockton the ridiculous assist number and, well, never seems to miss a game. Paul is playing in today's game which I consider the tougher environment and has stronger accolades for what that's worth. I go back and forth. I will go with Stockton for the superior locker room guy since I have them so very close.
Beyond them there is Nash, Frazier, Harden, Wade, Baylor, and Ewing on my radar. Harden is tempting; if it was individual dominance instead of a team game, he'd already be in. Really not seeing the Schayes love, I will probably go Arizin first from the 50s. Scottie Pippen should get a look soon too.
1. Curry
2. Pettit
3. Stockton
And it's a move, hopefully, to prolong their careers."colts18 wrote:Why did the Jazz not win a title? If you look at the drafting history of the Utah Jazz you will find the aswer. Their drafting track record was so bad that I had to write a long post pointing out the incompetence of the Jazz. I analyzed Utah's draft record from the time they draft they drafted Karl Malone in 1985 to 2000. I will post these players VORP's from 1987-2001, the last relevant season of Stockton/Malone. What did they contribute to the Jazz? You will be surprised just how bad it was.
1986
Dell Curry- 15th Pick
Wait, Dell Curry played for the Jazz? You might not remember that. It's ok but he had a brief one-year stint as a rookie with the Jazz before being traded. Curry, 40% career 3 point shooter, would have been the perfect fit with Malone/Stockton. He got traded for Darryl Dawkins and Melvin Turpin. Dawkins is a big name and Turpin was the 6th pick a few years earlier. That sounds like a great haul until you look at closer. Dawkins played just 4 games with the Jazz before being traded to the Bad Boys Pistons. He played a total of 16 games with the Pistons before his NBA career ended. Turpin was an all-time bust. He played 1 year with the Jazz (-1.6 BPM, 14 PER) and one more season with the Bullets before his career ended.
Curry's VORP with the Jazz: -0.2
Dawkins/Turpin VORP: 0.0
Verdict: The Jazz got nothing out of that pick
1987
Jose Ortiz- 15th pick
Who? He played just 2 years with the Jazz (-6.4 BPM, 9 PER) before his career was over. A huge bust
VORP with the Jazz: -0.4
1988
Eric Leckner-17th pick
Leckner was an awful player. He was traded after 2 years (-4.5 BPM, 11 PER with Jazz) in the Jeff Malone trade. His career -5.3 BPM is the 3rd worst in history (min. 5,000 MP). #2 worst, Greg Foster, was a starter during the Jazz finals years.
VORP with the Jazz: -1.0 VORP
Jeff Malone VORP: -0.6 VORP
1989
Blue Edwards- 21st pick
Finally, our first player who started. He plays 3 years for the Jazz as their starting Small Forward averaging 10-7-2. He has an 11 PER, -1.4 BPM in that span. He is traded alongside for Eric Murdock and a 1st round pick for Jay Humphries and Larry Krystowiak. I will get to that trade later.
VORP with the Jazz: 0.9 (Positive!)
1990
No 1st round pick
1991
Eric Murdock
A good player. A career 2.0 BPM and 17 PER. In his 3rd season he averaged 15-7 with 2.4 steals and a 4.0 BPM, 17th in the league. Great player right? The only problem is NONE of that happened with the Jazz. He plays 1 non-descript season as a backup before being traded to Milwaukee in the trade mentioned above. Krystowiak plays 1 season (-2.5 BPM) with the Jazz. Humphries plays 3 seasons (-2.3 BPM) with the Jazz before being traded to Boston. He plays 6 games in Boston before his career is over.
Murdock's VORP: 0.2
Krystowiak/Humphries VORP: -0.5
1992
No 1st round pick
No pick because of the trade mentioned above. To recap, the Jazz traded 3 1st round picks (Edwards, Murdock, and 92 pick) for nothing. This what the Jazz GM said about the trade:
"I think this is another step to take advantage of the abilities of (John Stockton and Karl Malone) in their prime," said General Manager Tim Howells. "We have two or three years to get some things done.
Little does he know that Stockton/Malone would last another decade and the players he traded for were useless parts.
1993
Luther Wright- 18th pick
Plays 15 games his rookie year. Finishes the season with 19 Total points, 10 rebounds, 0 assists, 6 turnovers, on 35 FG%. His PER is -0.4. How do you have a negative PER? He was so bad that the Jazz cut him after the season and he never played in the NBA again.
VORP: -0.2
1994
No First round pick
If you are keeping count that is 9 straight drafts without a contribution to the Jazz
1995
Greg Ostertag-28th pick
The first player the Jazz draft that is "decent". He is a starter on the 97 Jazz. In 98, he goes to the bench for Adam keefe. A career 13 PER and -0.6 BPM.
VORP from 95-01: 3.1
1996
Martin Müürsepp- 25th pick
Who? He gets traded to Miami on draft night for a 2000 1st round pick. Lasts only 2 seasons in the NBA
VORP: 0 (never played for the Jazz)
1997
Jacque Vaughn- 27th pick
Remember that list I mentioned of the worst players post merger? His career -3.1 BPM is 61st worst. He plays 4 years with the Jazz as the 3rd string PG.
VORP: -0.7
1998
Nazr Muhammed-28th pick
Traded on draft night for a 1999 1st round pick. The Jazz could have used him.
VORP: 0
1999:
Quincy Lewis- 19th pick
Picked up in the Nazr Muhammed trade. He plays 3 awful years in Utah before leaving.
VORP in 2000 and 2001: -1.0
1999:
Andrei Kirilenko-24th pick
NICE! A great draft pick. Only one problem. He stays in Europe for 2 more years and doesn't come into the NBA until 2002 when Stockton and Malone are 39 and 38 years old. He doesn't have his all-star season until AFTER Stockton/Malone leave.
VORP: 0
1999:
Scott Padgett- 28th pick
Another bench player who doesn't have much of a career. He has a -3.8 BPM, 10 PER in the 2000 and 2001 season. Another negative contribution
VORP in 2000-01: -0.3
2000:
DeShawn Stevenson-23rd pick
He has a long career but doesn't contribute much to the Stockton/Malone Jazz. He has a -7.7 BPM, 4 PER in his rookie year.
VORP in 2001: -0.4
These 11 1st round picks contributed a total of 0.0 VORP to the Jazz. The players who they were traded for contributed even less for the Jazz, -1.1 VORP. For 15 years of drafting, they have a NEGATIVE VORP to show for their 1st round picks. That's Sacramento Kings level of drafting bad. They don't have much to show for their 2nd round picks either. They got 3 years of Shandon Anderson on the bench and they got Bryon Russell, a solid role player (1.0 BPM, 10 VORP). Nothing else after that.
Free agency:
Did the Jazz sign a relevant free agent during Stockton/Malone's career? No. The best free agent they signed up to 1995 was 34 years old Tom Chambers. They did sign Tim Legler who only played 3 games with the Jazz before being waived. He led the NBA in 3 point shooting (52%) a few years later so he could have been a contributor the Jazz. After that, they signed a few bench pieces like 34-year-old Antoine Carr, Greg "2nd worst BPM ever" Foster, Howard Eisley.
Trades:
Did the Jazz make any trades that would help out their squad? None until the Hornacek trade.
The Jazz had Adrian Dantley in 1986 coming off a 30 PPG season. They traded him and did not receive much in return (4.9 BPM).
Dantley for
Kelly Tripucka (averages 9.1 PPG in Utah, -0.7 BPM, 0.9 VORP)
Kent Benson (0.0 VORP in 1 season with Jazz)
Both players do absolutely nothing in Utah. Tripucka goes from 20 PPG in Detroit to 9 PPG in Utah then leaves Utah and goes back to 22 PPG? Benson is traded in the Curry trade mentioned above.
Tripucka gets traded for
Mike Brown (5 seasons in Utah averaging 6-5. -3.1 BPM, -2.0 VORP)
Mike Brown gets traded for
Felton Spencer (-3.5 BPM, -1.7 VORP)
Felton Spencer plays just 19 MPG on the 19 win expansion TWolves. He goes to Utah and that jumps up 28 MPG (30 MPG in the playoffs). Spencer is the starter for Utah for 3 years. You remember the list I mentioned earlier about the worst BPM's since the merger? Spencer is featured prominently on that list. He has the 16th worst career BPM. And this guy was a starter for the Jazz for 3 years of the Stockton/Malone/Hornacek prime lol. Spencer gets traded for 2 players who don't play for the Jazz and the pick that ends up being Kirilenko, too bad he came in late for Stockton/Malone.
If you are keeping score at home, that's a -2.8 VORP for the players that the Jazz received for all-star Adrian Dantley. They could have used him in the 1988-1990 seasons.
I mentioned the Jeff Malone trade earlier. The Jazz traded their starting SG, Bob Hansen, 1st round pick Eric Leckner, and a 1990 1st round pick for Jeff Malone. Jeff Malone has a negative BPM every season for the Jazz.
Thurl Bailey for Tyrone Corbin
Bailey had a solid run for the Jazz in the 80's. Corbin ends up playing 3 years for the Jazz averaging 10-6-2, 13 PER, 0.2 BPM, 3.6 VORP.
Tyrone Corbin gets traded for Adam Keefe
Adam Keefe plays 6 years in Utah mostly as a backup. He averages 5-4, 13 PER, -0.6 BPM, 2.6 VORP.
Jeff Malone and 1st round pick for Jeff Hornacek
Finally a great move for Utah. Hornacek plays 7 years in Utah averaging 14 PPG, 3.6 BPM, 20.7 VORP. It's no coincidence that the Jazz take a leap to the next level with Hornacek.
Other relevant moves:
In 1991, the Jazz signed undrafted free agent David Benoit. He averages 11-7 in college at Alabama. Can't even finish on the 1st, 2nd, or 3rd team All-SEC. He goes undrafted and plays 1 year Europe before the Jazz sign him. He starts 2 games as a rookie, but somehow is thrusted into the starting lineup in the playoffs. He plays 5 years with the Jazz, all of them as a playoff starter, averaging 12 PER, -0.8 BPM, 0.4 VORP. In the playoffs he has a 49 TS%, 10 PER, -1.6 BPM.
Remember how I said Felton Spencer was the Jazz 3 year starter from 94-96 and was the 16th worst player? Well, in 1995, Spencer got injured mid season. You would think that's a good thing. Wrong. Somehow the Jazz got even worse. The Jazz signed James Donaldson as his replacement. In 1993, Donaldson played just 6 games as a 35 year old. The next season he plays in Europe. Then the next year the Jazz sign 37 year old James Donaldson midseason. He averages 2.6 PPG, 2.5 Reb, 8 PER, -1.5 BPM playing 40 games as the starter. In the playoffs he averages 2.8 PPG, 1.8 Reb, 9 PER, -0.5 BPM in 15 MPG as the starter playing against Hakeem Olajuwon. After that, he never played another game in the NBA.
This is an old analysis I did comparing Stockton/Malone's supporting cast from 88-94 to other great players. SPOILER: They compared awfully.
88-94 (Doesn't include Stockton/Malone):
# of players with 1+ VORP: 7
2+ VORP: 0
2+ BPM (Min. 1000 MP): 0 (best BPM is Mark Eaton 0.6)
90-96 Spurs (Robinson):
1+ VORP: 22
2+ VORP: 11
2+ BPM: 2
98-04 Lakers (Shaq and Kobe):
1+ VORP: 15
2+ VORP: 6
2+ BPM: 7
87-93 Bulls (MJ and Pippen):
1+ VORP: 9
2+ VORP: 4
2+ BPM: 2
80-86 Lakers (Magic and Kareem):
1+ VORP: 19
2+ VORP: 6
2+ BPM: 2
01-07 Spurs (Duncan):
1+ VORP: 37
2+ VORP: 13
2+ BPM: 20
The Jazz had 0 2+ VORP players in that span while the other franchises averaged 8 of them. The Jazz supporting cast was significantly behind the other teams.
Recap:
-The Jazz had a historically bad drafting run in the 15 years after Stockton/Malone
-They signed no free agents of significance because they were stuck in small market Utah. The best free agent they ever signed was 34 year old Tom Chambers
-Most of their trades sucked. They got negative trade value for All-star Adrian Dantley
-The Jazz made 1 good move during the Stockton/Malone era. The Jeff Hornacek trade. There is a reason why their best playoff runs happen from 1995-1999.
-The Jazz's playoff struggles from 1988-1994 can be explained by all of the above factors and the fact that their best supporting players during that run were Mark Eaton, Tyrone Corbin, and David Benoit.
Magic Is Magic wrote:
1. Stephen Curry is one of those guys that is hard to rank mostly because he doesn't have that Finals MVP yet but everything else he has done is ridiculous.
Magic Is Magic wrote:Voting for the #24 spot:
1. Stephen Curry
2. James Harden
3. Chris Paul
1. Stephen Curry is one of those guys that is hard to rank mostly because he doesn't have that Finals MVP yet but everything else he has done is ridiculous. First of all, being able to make it to 5 straight Finals is amazing. We downplay that because of LeBron but truthfully they are the only two to every make 5 straight Finals since probably 1960 or so? Meanwhile guys are trying to slide in Stockton who only ever made 2 Finals for his whole career and never won a ring. Curry making 5 straight Finals alone, that right there is amazing, but his greatness goes even further. He also won 3 of them, while achieving the greatest regular season run in the history of our sport. 73 wins. Unanimous MVP. 30 ppg, off a 50/40/90 split season. He has all the three pointer records too, most in a single season, most in the playoffs, and will eventually pass Ray Allen for most all time in the RS, and he has already passed him by nearly 100 in playoff 3-pointers. His offensive gravity is remarkable and easy to give dismiss. Teams in the playoffs were nearly forced to pick him up as soon as he crossed half court or they were repeatedly sending hard doubles at him. No other perimeter player has faced that type of defensive attention. Anyway, in a nut shell. 2x MVP, 3x Rings, 5x Finals, Only U-MVP in league history, 1st in PO 3-pointers, soon to be 1st in RS 3-pointers as well. I can't put a guy with 2 Finals and zero rings or MVPs above that. NOPE.
2. 36 ppg in the modern era? Three scoring titles, an MVP, and an assist title. Very few have won both an assist and scoring title. Not to mention he is an 8x all-star, but the thing holding him back the most is lack of Finals appearances and rings. He only has 1 Finals appearance, although I feel if the next guy (CP3) doesn't get hurt in 2018 then he most likely wins his first title and possibly the FMVP. I can't count LeBron out completely but if Chris Paul doesn't get hurt in 2018 then Harden likely wins his 1st ring (finally).
2. If Chris Paul had some Finals appearances and or a ring he would be pushed to the front with everything else he has done, but unfortunately for him he does not have that missing piece. Chris Paul plays both sides of the ball extremely well but he also does lack a pick of the offensive firepower when compared to the other modern guys ahead of him (KD, Curry, Harden). Plus all of those guys have an MVP and at least 1 Finals appearance still needs an MVP or a Finals appearance/ring to pass Harden but he is obviously close.
Cavsfansince84 wrote:Magic Is Magic wrote:
1. Stephen Curry is one of those guys that is hard to rank mostly because he doesn't have that Finals MVP yet but everything else he has done is ridiculous.
Just want to say that I currently don't have Curry on my ballot and it has absolutely nothing to do with lack of fmvps and I think there are others who would say the same. The thing holding him back right now is just too short of a prime which is semi compromised by injuries. Also having only made all nba 1st or 2nd team 5 times. He's only 32 so he could still easily have another 5-6 years left in his career. So keep in mind that people who may not vote for him as top 25 right now could easily have him in their top 20 or 15 when he is actually done with his career.
No-more-rings wrote:Magic Is Magic wrote:Voting for the #24 spot:
1. Stephen Curry
2. James Harden
3. Chris Paul
1. Stephen Curry is one of those guys that is hard to rank mostly because he doesn't have that Finals MVP yet but everything else he has done is ridiculous. First of all, being able to make it to 5 straight Finals is amazing. We downplay that because of LeBron but truthfully they are the only two to every make 5 straight Finals since probably 1960 or so? Meanwhile guys are trying to slide in Stockton who only ever made 2 Finals for his whole career and never won a ring. Curry making 5 straight Finals alone, that right there is amazing, but his greatness goes even further. He also won 3 of them, while achieving the greatest regular season run in the history of our sport. 73 wins. Unanimous MVP. 30 ppg, off a 50/40/90 split season. He has all the three pointer records too, most in a single season, most in the playoffs, and will eventually pass Ray Allen for most all time in the RS, and he has already passed him by nearly 100 in playoff 3-pointers. His offensive gravity is remarkable and easy to give dismiss. Teams in the playoffs were nearly forced to pick him up as soon as he crossed half court or they were repeatedly sending hard doubles at him. No other perimeter player has faced that type of defensive attention. Anyway, in a nut shell. 2x MVP, 3x Rings, 5x Finals, Only U-MVP in league history, 1st in PO 3-pointers, soon to be 1st in RS 3-pointers as well. I can't put a guy with 2 Finals and zero rings or MVPs above that. NOPE.
2. 36 ppg in the modern era? Three scoring titles, an MVP, and an assist title. Very few have won both an assist and scoring title. Not to mention he is an 8x all-star, but the thing holding him back the most is lack of Finals appearances and rings. He only has 1 Finals appearance, although I feel if the next guy (CP3) doesn't get hurt in 2018 then he most likely wins his first title and possibly the FMVP. I can't count LeBron out completely but if Chris Paul doesn't get hurt in 2018 then Harden likely wins his 1st ring (finally).
2. If Chris Paul had some Finals appearances and or a ring he would be pushed to the front with everything else he has done, but unfortunately for him he does not have that missing piece. Chris Paul plays both sides of the ball extremely well but he also does lack a pick of the offensive firepower when compared to the other modern guys ahead of him (KD, Curry, Harden). Plus all of those guys have an MVP and at least 1 Finals appearance still needs an MVP or a Finals appearance/ring to pass Harden but he is obviously close.
What’s your argument for Harden over Wade?
Magic Is Magic wrote:
I get that this longevity isn't up to par compared to others but even if he stopped playing today he has done too much to put someone like Stockton over him
-5 straight Finals (#2 all time besides Lebron since 1970)
-3 rings
-2 MVPs
-73 win season
-Scoring title
-1st and only Unanimous MVP
-steals leader
-50/40/90 season on 30 ppg
No one else is really close to that at this stage are they?
eminence wrote:Do you legit think Benoit/Corbin were better than Jeff Malone/Thurl Bailey or is that some stat talking?
colts18 wrote:Why did the Jazz not win a title? ...
Did the Jazz make any trades that would help out their squad? None until the Hornacek trade.
Cavsfansince84 wrote:Magic Is Magic wrote:
1. Stephen Curry is one of those guys that is hard to rank mostly because he doesn't have that Finals MVP yet but everything else he has done is ridiculous.
Just want to say that I currently don't have Curry on my ballot and it has absolutely nothing to do with lack of fmvps and I think there are others who would say the same. The thing holding him back right now is just too short of a prime which is semi compromised by injuries. Also having only made all nba 1st or 2nd team 5 times. He's only 32 so he could still easily have another 5-6 years left in his career. So keep in mind that people who may not vote for him as top 25 right now could easily have him in their top 20 or 15 when he is actually done with his career.
freethedevil wrote:Oddly enough, Curry's longetivty is actually ~ Durants if you go by playoff contribution
I dont really understand while durant is perceived as some karl malone when he's had a margianlly longer rs prime and an identially shoert playoff prime.
He doesn't have a meningful longevity advantage over curry and its basiclaly nothing over harden.
And as far as affecting winning goes, Curry was already close to as good as peak rs durant by 2013-2014.
As far as accumulative championship equity goes, curry is comfortably the #1 option of anyone left and has been for the last 5 spots.