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trex_8063 wrote:...
trex_8063 wrote:While I don't think he attained the offensive heights of Steve Nash, he so thoroughly trumps Nash as a defender AND in terms of longevity that I have him comfortably ahead in an all-time sense.
I'll also refer to this post from the #23 thread regarding some of the usual criticisms he endures in these discussions.
Specifically on Stockton vs Nash.....
Again, I'm not going to try to convince you that Stockton was Nash's equal as an offensive engine, because I don't think that's true. I also don't think the offensive comparison is like comparing Steph Curry to Rajon Rondo--->not that anyone has suggested it is, that's just my sarcastic way of saying I don't think there's an ocean of difference between them on offense; it's more like a pond [some might even say a koi pond, but I'll hedge off of that].
But defensively there's probably [on average in respective primes] around 2 pts/100 poss difference between them; maybe more.
Stockton didn't have remarkable lateral quickness, but it was better than Nash's (as well as having terrific anticipation and footwork). And whereas Nash might die on a screen, Stockton would give you a shove, and an elbow, and a purple nurple, and tear your shorts as he fought around your screen. That physicality sometimes got him inside opponents’ heads, or under their skin, **as I’ll point out in the following video. He also had ultra-quick hands and is in an all-time tier as a weak-side sniper and post help defender from the PG position (part of why he’s the steals leader by a truly silly margin).
Just as a bit of an example of what he brings defensively, I’ll just point to ONE game I happened to have been watching recently:
48:40 - notice how he recognizes the shooter the very moment Jay Humphries goes to double-team, and the nice close-out to make a good contest [he is NOT the closest Jazz player to the play, btw].
49:12 - the very next defensive possession, he makes the aggressive double [working those quick hands] contributing to a bad pass toward the weak-side that nearly turns it over. And who recovers the ball-handler on that weak-side? John Stockton, even though he was the FARTHEST Jazz player from the play. Stith goes dribble-drive baseline, and Stockton pokes the ball loose from behind, generating the turnover. All this on ONE possession!
51:12 - THE VERY NEXT defensive possession (Robert Pack has just made 2 FT’s after an intentional foul by Humphries, Denver is inbounding).....Stockton denies the entry pass to Pack [ball goes to Brian Williams] as Stockton has a little shove/flop exchange with Pack, who then gets the ball. Stockton then cuts off Pack’s dribble-drive so effectively, Pack falls down and nearly loses the ball (while also nearly charging [could have been called a charge, frankly]), though ultimately manages to get it to Reggie Williams. Stockton then denies the pass back to Pack, so the ball goes to Brian Williams on the baseline, who drives around an utterly stationary Tom Chambers, falls down, but gets the foul call (they show a slo-mo replay: Chambers made virtually NO contact, so…..bad call). When Williams lost the ball, who recovered it? Stockton.
**52:25 - As Brian Williams shoots the 2nd FT [that he didn’t deserve] from the play above, Stockton is getting physical with Robert Pack, who responds in frustration [**remember I said he’d get under opponents’ skin?] and throws Stockton the floor, and is called for a foul.
I mean, there^^^^ is a sequence of four CONSECUTIVE possessions in the same game. But truly this kind of tactic and effort is not at all out of the ordinary for Stockton (perhaps obviously, when I can find four plays IN A ROW like that).
Other plays to look at (this is just from a brief re-watch of part of this game):
30:44 - Simple play, nothing fancy. But note the ball-pressure on the perimeter, forcing Rauf to give up the ball. Then he shows the double, prompting Ellis to quickly get rid of the ball, still recovering to make a nice contest on the shot by Rauf.
31:40 - Very next defensive possession. The physical on-ball pressure by Stockton, perhaps contributing to a bad pass that nearly turns it over (ball tipped out of bounds). On the following inbound play, physical ball-denial leads to Stockton drawing an offensive foul [moving screen by Mutombo]; could also have been a shove by Rauf.
35:12 - Stockton ties up Williams. Doesn’t get the call, but you can see in the replay it’s a mis-call. It’s GOT to be either an jump-ball or a travel on Williams.
Seriously, this didn’t take exhaustive scouting to find these plays; this was a lazy man’s 12-minute scouting of a SINGLE GAME. But any game with Stockton is peppered with plays like this.
So whatever margin you feel exists between Stockton and Nash offensive, it’s is pure denial to, well……deny that Stockton isn’t making up at least a big chunk of that margin defensively.
And then he’s got the superior longevity besides….
70sFan wrote:trex_8063 wrote:While I don't think he attained the offensive heights of Steve Nash, he so thoroughly trumps Nash as a defender AND in terms of longevity that I have him comfortably ahead in an all-time sense.
I'll also refer to this post from the #23 thread regarding some of the usual criticisms he endures in these discussions.
Specifically on Stockton vs Nash.....
Again, I'm not going to try to convince you that Stockton was Nash's equal as an offensive engine, because I don't think that's true. I also don't think the offensive comparison is like comparing Steph Curry to Rajon Rondo--->not that anyone has suggested it is, that's just my sarcastic way of saying I don't think there's an ocean of difference between them on offense; it's more like a pond [some might even say a koi pond, but I'll hedge off of that].
But defensively there's probably [on average in respective primes] around 2 pts/100 poss difference between them; maybe more.
Stockton didn't have remarkable lateral quickness, but it was better than Nash's (as well as having terrific anticipation and footwork). And whereas Nash might die on a screen, Stockton would give you a shove, and an elbow, and a purple nurple, and tear your shorts as he fought around your screen. That physicality sometimes got him inside opponents’ heads, or under their skin, **as I’ll point out in the following video. He also had ultra-quick hands and is in an all-time tier as a weak-side sniper and post help defender from the PG position (part of why he’s the steals leader by a truly silly margin).
Just as a bit of an example of what he brings defensively, I’ll just point to ONE game I happened to have been watching recently:
48:40 - notice how he recognizes the shooter the very moment Jay Humphries goes to double-team, and the nice close-out to make a good contest [he is NOT the closest Jazz player to the play, btw].
49:12 - the very next defensive possession, he makes the aggressive double [working those quick hands] contributing to a bad pass toward the weak-side that nearly turns it over. And who recovers the ball-handler on that weak-side? John Stockton, even though he was the FARTHEST Jazz player from the play. Stith goes dribble-drive baseline, and Stockton pokes the ball loose from behind, generating the turnover. All this on ONE possession!
51:12 - THE VERY NEXT defensive possession (Robert Pack has just made 2 FT’s after an intentional foul by Humphries, Denver is inbounding).....Stockton denies the entry pass to Pack [ball goes to Brian Williams] as Stockton has a little shove/flop exchange with Pack, who then gets the ball. Stockton then cuts off Pack’s dribble-drive so effectively, Pack falls down and nearly loses the ball (while also nearly charging [could have been called a charge, frankly]), though ultimately manages to get it to Reggie Williams. Stockton then denies the pass back to Pack, so the ball goes to Brian Williams on the baseline, who drives around an utterly stationary Tom Chambers, falls down, but gets the foul call (they show a slo-mo replay: Chambers made virtually NO contact, so…..bad call). When Williams lost the ball, who recovered it? Stockton.
**52:25 - As Brian Williams shoots the 2nd FT [that he didn’t deserve] from the play above, Stockton is getting physical with Robert Pack, who responds in frustration [**remember I said he’d get under opponents’ skin?] and throws Stockton the floor, and is called for a foul.
I mean, there^^^^ is a sequence of four CONSECUTIVE possessions in the same game. But truly this kind of tactic and effort is not at all out of the ordinary for Stockton (perhaps obviously, when I can find four plays IN A ROW like that).
Other plays to look at (this is just from a brief re-watch of part of this game):
30:44 - Simple play, nothing fancy. But note the ball-pressure on the perimeter, forcing Rauf to give up the ball. Then he shows the double, prompting Ellis to quickly get rid of the ball, still recovering to make a nice contest on the shot by Rauf.
31:40 - Very next defensive possession. The physical on-ball pressure by Stockton, perhaps contributing to a bad pass that nearly turns it over (ball tipped out of bounds). On the following inbound play, physical ball-denial leads to Stockton drawing an offensive foul [moving screen by Mutombo]; could also have been a shove by Rauf.
35:12 - Stockton ties up Williams. Doesn’t get the call, but you can see in the replay it’s a mis-call. It’s GOT to be either an jump-ball or a travel on Williams.
Seriously, this didn’t take exhaustive scouting to find these plays; this was a lazy man’s 12-minute scouting of a SINGLE GAME. But any game with Stockton is peppered with plays like this.
So whatever margin you feel exists between Stockton and Nash offensive, it’s is pure denial to, well……deny that Stockton isn’t making up at least a big chunk of that margin defensively.
And then he’s got the superior longevity besides….
Great post, recently I've been defending Stockton during our All-NBA Project. People say that Stockton's defense wasn't much of a factor and he was only scrappy but limited. Can't disagree any more than that - Stockton was very impactful defender for his size. Thank you for this post!
WestGOAT wrote:70sFan wrote:trex_8063 wrote:While I don't think he attained the offensive heights of Steve Nash, he so thoroughly trumps Nash as a defender AND in terms of longevity that I have him comfortably ahead in an all-time sense.
I'll also refer to this post from the #23 thread regarding some of the usual criticisms he endures in these discussions.
Specifically on Stockton vs Nash.....
Again, I'm not going to try to convince you that Stockton was Nash's equal as an offensive engine, because I don't think that's true. I also don't think the offensive comparison is like comparing Steph Curry to Rajon Rondo--->not that anyone has suggested it is, that's just my sarcastic way of saying I don't think there's an ocean of difference between them on offense; it's more like a pond [some might even say a koi pond, but I'll hedge off of that].
But defensively there's probably [on average in respective primes] around 2 pts/100 poss difference between them; maybe more.
Stockton didn't have remarkable lateral quickness, but it was better than Nash's (as well as having terrific anticipation and footwork). And whereas Nash might die on a screen, Stockton would give you a shove, and an elbow, and a purple nurple, and tear your shorts as he fought around your screen. That physicality sometimes got him inside opponents’ heads, or under their skin, **as I’ll point out in the following video. He also had ultra-quick hands and is in an all-time tier as a weak-side sniper and post help defender from the PG position (part of why he’s the steals leader by a truly silly margin).
Just as a bit of an example of what he brings defensively, I’ll just point to ONE game I happened to have been watching recently:
48:40 - notice how he recognizes the shooter the very moment Jay Humphries goes to double-team, and the nice close-out to make a good contest [he is NOT the closest Jazz player to the play, btw].
49:12 - the very next defensive possession, he makes the aggressive double [working those quick hands] contributing to a bad pass toward the weak-side that nearly turns it over. And who recovers the ball-handler on that weak-side? John Stockton, even though he was the FARTHEST Jazz player from the play. Stith goes dribble-drive baseline, and Stockton pokes the ball loose from behind, generating the turnover. All this on ONE possession!
51:12 - THE VERY NEXT defensive possession (Robert Pack has just made 2 FT’s after an intentional foul by Humphries, Denver is inbounding).....Stockton denies the entry pass to Pack [ball goes to Brian Williams] as Stockton has a little shove/flop exchange with Pack, who then gets the ball. Stockton then cuts off Pack’s dribble-drive so effectively, Pack falls down and nearly loses the ball (while also nearly charging [could have been called a charge, frankly]), though ultimately manages to get it to Reggie Williams. Stockton then denies the pass back to Pack, so the ball goes to Brian Williams on the baseline, who drives around an utterly stationary Tom Chambers, falls down, but gets the foul call (they show a slo-mo replay: Chambers made virtually NO contact, so…..bad call). When Williams lost the ball, who recovered it? Stockton.
**52:25 - As Brian Williams shoots the 2nd FT [that he didn’t deserve] from the play above, Stockton is getting physical with Robert Pack, who responds in frustration [**remember I said he’d get under opponents’ skin?] and throws Stockton the floor, and is called for a foul.
I mean, there^^^^ is a sequence of four CONSECUTIVE possessions in the same game. But truly this kind of tactic and effort is not at all out of the ordinary for Stockton (perhaps obviously, when I can find four plays IN A ROW like that).
Other plays to look at (this is just from a brief re-watch of part of this game):
30:44 - Simple play, nothing fancy. But note the ball-pressure on the perimeter, forcing Rauf to give up the ball. Then he shows the double, prompting Ellis to quickly get rid of the ball, still recovering to make a nice contest on the shot by Rauf.
31:40 - Very next defensive possession. The physical on-ball pressure by Stockton, perhaps contributing to a bad pass that nearly turns it over (ball tipped out of bounds). On the following inbound play, physical ball-denial leads to Stockton drawing an offensive foul [moving screen by Mutombo]; could also have been a shove by Rauf.
35:12 - Stockton ties up Williams. Doesn’t get the call, but you can see in the replay it’s a mis-call. It’s GOT to be either an jump-ball or a travel on Williams.
Seriously, this didn’t take exhaustive scouting to find these plays; this was a lazy man’s 12-minute scouting of a SINGLE GAME. But any game with Stockton is peppered with plays like this.
So whatever margin you feel exists between Stockton and Nash offensive, it’s is pure denial to, well……deny that Stockton isn’t making up at least a big chunk of that margin defensively.
And then he’s got the superior longevity besides….
Great post, recently I've been defending Stockton during our All-NBA Project. People say that Stockton's defense wasn't much of a factor and he was only scrappy but limited. Can't disagree any more than that - Stockton was very impactful defender for his size. Thank you for this post!
I'm not convinced that his defence was such a big game-changer. Like I said many times before defence from the PG position is overrated, unless your PG can switch onto bigger players, which I'm definitely not convinced Stockton could do on bigger stages:
And this is not one game, but the entire series in '92 and '91 Porter went off like crazy. This is also "young" Stockton, so there is no excuse yet that he couldn't keep up "physically" back then cause of his age. Also Kenny Smith was shooting lights out against Stockton, and this was not an anomaly since he also did it for two full series ('94 and '95). So to me Stockton's defence is overrated.
Also not related to his defence, but his performance in '96 against the Sonics also seems to get a pass. The Jazz easily wins this series if he played half-decent, especially in game 4, but he shoots 3-for-9 and the Jazz lose by two points and end up in a 3-1 hole against the Sonics.
Joao Saraiva wrote:Accodales
Stockton has 11 all-NBA team slections, and some defensive ones too. That is a lot and shows you he was relevant for a long time. He wasn't just hanging arround the league, even until his very last year. If you look at his per 100 possessions numbers, you'll realize John was still a factor, just playing less minutes.
70sFan wrote:WestGOAT wrote:70sFan wrote:
Great post, recently I've been defending Stockton during our All-NBA Project. People say that Stockton's defense wasn't much of a factor and he was only scrappy but limited. Can't disagree any more than that - Stockton was very impactful defender for his size. Thank you for this post!
I'm not convinced that his defence was such a big game-changer. Like I said many times before defence from the PG position is overrated, unless your PG can switch onto bigger players, which I'm definitely not convinced Stockton could do on bigger stages:
And this is not one game, but the entire series in '92 and '91 Porter went off like crazy. This is also "young" Stockton, so there is no excuse yet that he couldn't keep up "physically" back then cause of his age. Also Kenny Smith was shooting lights out against Stockton, and this was not an anomaly since he also did it for two full series ('94 and '95). So to me Stockton's defence is overrated.
Also not related to his defence, but his performance in '96 against the Sonics also seems to get a pass. The Jazz easily wins this series if he played half-decent, especially in game 4, but he shoots 3-for-9 and the Jazz lose by two points and end up in a 3-1 hole against the Sonics.
Every great defender had moments when he struggled against certain type of player. Duncan struggled against Stoudemire - does it make his defense overrated?
WestGOAT wrote:70sFan wrote:WestGOAT wrote:
I'm not convinced that his defence was such a big game-changer. Like I said many times before defence from the PG position is overrated, unless your PG can switch onto bigger players, which I'm definitely not convinced Stockton could do on bigger stages:
And this is not one game, but the entire series in '92 and '91 Porter went off like crazy. This is also "young" Stockton, so there is no excuse yet that he couldn't keep up "physically" back then cause of his age. Also Kenny Smith was shooting lights out against Stockton, and this was not an anomaly since he also did it for two full series ('94 and '95). So to me Stockton's defence is overrated.
Also not related to his defence, but his performance in '96 against the Sonics also seems to get a pass. The Jazz easily wins this series if he played half-decent, especially in game 4, but he shoots 3-for-9 and the Jazz lose by two points and end up in a 3-1 hole against the Sonics.
Every great defender had moments when he struggled against certain type of player. Duncan struggled against Stoudemire - does it make his defense overrated?
Well first of all, I would like to see the stats first to establish whether Duncan really struggled against Stoudimire.
I know Stoudimire put up some big numbers against Duncan in some games, but I haven't seen the bigger picture numbers, i.e How well did Stoudimire perform against the Spurs compared to other play-off teams he faced from 2005-2010 (average points, and on what efficiency, with how many turnovers). My hunch is that the difference is not so big, if at all.
Also another thing to consider is how much was that part of the game-plan for the Spurs against the Suns. Does it matter if Stoudimire gets his, but his team (the Suns) performs worse overall on offense than average? (All of these stats can be calculated)
I don't think this was the case for the Jazz against the Blazers/Rockets though, this is also a matter of looking at relative ORtg.
Re:Stockton. I never realized that Kenny Smith and Terry Porter were the same type of player. And I don't mean it sarcastically cause I am no expert on both of those players.
70sFan wrote:Great post, recently I've been defending Stockton during our All-NBA Project. People say that Stockton's defense wasn't much of a factor and he was only scrappy but limited.
penbeast0 wrote: This leaves me with Ewing and Frazier -- both great defensively, both very good offensively, both strong leaders. Frazier's case would be based on his great playoff performances, particularly in the finals. Like Hakeem or Jordan, he stepped up his game on the biggest stage.
Odinn21 wrote:Frazier always caused big troubles to the player he defended.
A quick look at the star players played against the Knicks in the playoffs during Frazier's prime;
E. Monroe against Frazier in '69 playoffs - 28.3 ppg on .386 fg (25.8 ppg on .440 fg r. season average for Monroe and his team was .427 against the Knicks)
E. Monroe in '70; 28.0 ppg on .481 fg (23.4 ppg on .446 fg r. season and .418 fg team)
E. Monroe in '71; 24.4 ppg on .407 fg (21.4 ppg on .442 fg r. season and .448 fg team)
S. Jones in '69; 14.5 ppg on .350 fg (16.3 ppg on .450 fg r. season and .469 fg team)
P. Maravich in '71; 22.0 ppg on .377 fg (23.2 ppg on .458 fg r. season and .427 fg team)
J. West in '70; 31.3 ppg on .450 fg (31.2 ppg on .497 fg r. season and .494 fg team)
J. West in '72; 19.8 ppg on .325 fg (25.8 ppg on .477 fg r. season and .421 fg team)
J. West in '73; 21.4 ppg on .442 fg (22.8 ppg on .479 fg r. season and .431 fg team)
J. White in '72; 22.6 ppg on .402 fg (23.1 ppg on .431 fg r. season and .416 fg team)
J. White in '73; 23.6 ppg on .414 fg (19.7 ppg on .431 fg r. season and .443 fg team)
J. White in '74; 15.2 ppg on .385 fg (18.1 ppg on .449 fg r. season and .467 fg team)
C. Murphy in '75; 20.7 ppg on .418 fg (18.7 ppg on .484 fg r. season and .481 fg team)
The only time a player improved their scoring volume and fg% from the floor was Monroe in 1970. There are 12 performances on there and literally half of them regressed in both volume and % against Frazier. Other than those 6, I'd put also '69 against Monroe, '70 against West and '75 against Murphy as definite wins in Frazier's case. That's 9 out of 12.
That's a pretty impressive track record if you ask me. Especially considering defense was more about 1v1 performances back then meaning those performance drops were more directly related to Frazier than team's defensive schemes.
Odinn21 wrote:penbeast0 wrote: This leaves me with Ewing and Frazier -- both great defensively, both very good offensively, both strong leaders. Frazier's case would be based on his great playoff performances, particularly in the finals. Like Hakeem or Jordan, he stepped up his game on the biggest stage.
I also have Ewing ahead of Frazier but I wanted to chime in about Clyde because his defensive impact was quite like a proper rim protector.Odinn21 wrote:Frazier always caused big troubles to the player he defended.
A quick look at the star players played against the Knicks in the playoffs during Frazier's prime;
E. Monroe against Frazier in '69 playoffs - 28.3 ppg on .386 fg (25.8 ppg on .440 fg r. season average for Monroe and his team was .427 against the Knicks)
E. Monroe in '70; 28.0 ppg on .481 fg (23.4 ppg on .446 fg r. season and .418 fg team)
E. Monroe in '71; 24.4 ppg on .407 fg (21.4 ppg on .442 fg r. season and .448 fg team)
S. Jones in '69; 14.5 ppg on .350 fg (16.3 ppg on .450 fg r. season and .469 fg team)
P. Maravich in '71; 22.0 ppg on .377 fg (23.2 ppg on .458 fg r. season and .427 fg team)
J. West in '70; 31.3 ppg on .450 fg (31.2 ppg on .497 fg r. season and .494 fg team)
J. West in '72; 19.8 ppg on .325 fg (25.8 ppg on .477 fg r. season and .421 fg team)
J. West in '73; 21.4 ppg on .442 fg (22.8 ppg on .479 fg r. season and .431 fg team)
J. White in '72; 22.6 ppg on .402 fg (23.1 ppg on .431 fg r. season and .416 fg team)
J. White in '73; 23.6 ppg on .414 fg (19.7 ppg on .431 fg r. season and .443 fg team)
J. White in '74; 15.2 ppg on .385 fg (18.1 ppg on .449 fg r. season and .467 fg team)
C. Murphy in '75; 20.7 ppg on .418 fg (18.7 ppg on .484 fg r. season and .481 fg team)
The only time a player improved their scoring volume and fg% from the floor was Monroe in 1970. There are 12 performances on there and literally half of them regressed in both volume and % against Frazier. Other than those 6, I'd put also '69 against Monroe, '70 against West and '75 against Murphy as definite wins in Frazier's case. That's 9 out of 12.
That's a pretty impressive track record if you ask me. Especially considering defense was more about 1v1 performances back then meaning those performance drops were more directly related to Frazier than team's defensive schemes.