RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #28 (Dwyane Wade)

[trex_8063]

2020 List
1. LeBron James
2. Michael Jordan
3. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
4. Bill Russell
5. Tim Duncan
6. Wilt Chamberlain
7. Magic Johnson
8. Shaquille O'Neal
9. Hakeem Olajuwon
10. Larry Bird
11. Kevin Garnett
12. Kobe Bryant
13. Jerry West
14. Oscar Robertson
15. Dirk Nowitzki
16. Karl Malone
17. David Robinson
18. Julius Erving
19. George Mikan
20. Moses Malone
21. Charles Barkley
22. Kevin Durant
23. Chris Paul
24. Stephen Curry
25. Bob Pettit
26. John Stockton
27. Steve Nash
28. ??

Target stop-time ~6pm EST on Thursday.

As per the two posters who responded to my question, unless there is a mass uprising on dissent toward the idea, all default victors will be validity-checked against the Condorcet method as outlined below.


Moving forward, I want to make sure everyone knows EXACTLY what to expect in a future contentious vote; so below is a flow-chart (which is consistent with precedent that has already occurred in this project):

1) ranked vote system (RVS) like we've been doing with three ordered picks. If a majority or **default victory is NOT obtained by a single player with this method.....

2) ....we go to Condorcet method [of the "finalist" players] among the original counted voters [which is a very natural "continuation" of a RVS, btw, given the entire point of the RVS is to better ensure everyone gets a counted vote] to determine a winner. BUT we will wait no longer than 24 hours after the original deadline to hear from everyone (and there's no mystery to figuring if you're one of the people I need to hear from: it's easy enough for any of you to tell without my asking each of you [if two or more of the three "finalists" were not on your original vote post, I don't know what your position is on them]).

IF the Condorcet method yields a tie OR I do not hear from every original voter wrt his player hierarchy within 24 hours of the original deadline and the tabulated Condorcet results still indicate undecided (i.e. that it could go either way if all votes were in).....

3) .....we will go to a "sudden death" runoff, wherein the first finalist to receive [at least] TWO new votes [which can come from one of the original Condorcet hold-outs] AND be in the lead by Condorcet method (including BOTH original voters and runoff voters) will be awarded the spot.

**All default victories will be "validity checked" via the Condorcet method. As long as the default victor does NOT lose to one of the other finalists via Condorcet, the default victory will be upheld, and he will be awarded the spot.
IF, otoh, he loses to one [or more] competitors via Condorcet method, we will enter a "sudden death" runoff [between the default "winner" and any player who beat him on Condorcet] that follows the same rules as indicated in #3 above.


btw, regardless of who you plan on voting for, it's A GOOD IDEA TO KEEP TABS ON WHO THE MAIN CONTENDERS ARE and to state clearly your pick or hierarchy of ranking among them......this will save time.

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[quote=”sansterre”].[/quote]

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[Odinn21]

26. Dwyane Wade
We're at a point, we've run out of players with 7+ seasons of prime. So, I can not knock Wade for not having an extended prime. His postseason resilience, especially against the toughest defenses, is the main reason I have him over anyone else left on the board.
I'd like to see Wade in the top 25. Personally I have him over Durant, Curry and Paul and my desire to see him in the top 25 could lead me to change my vote but I should stick my initial ranking.

Coming from the #25 thread about how hard Wade carried the Heat in 2006;

Spoiler:

I ran some simple numbers in the last half hour or so.
It was about vorp share on a team. Looking at vorp share is more about to see how hard a player carried his team, instead of making a claim about saying directly "he's the best since he has the highest numbers".

And I also looked at a small pool of title winning runs.

(vorp share in regular season / vorp share in playoffs / vorp share in total / season, player)

46.50% / 44.74% / 46.15% / 1980 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
43.20% / 55.56% / 46.19% / 1984 Larry Bird
41.67% / 39.58% / 41.25% / 1987 Magic Johnson
54.27% / 52.73% / 53.94% / 1991 Michael Jordan
58.29% / 51.92% / 56.83% / 1993 Michael Jordan
48.34% / 50.98% / 49.01% / 1994 Hakeem Olajuwon
45.23% / 42.62% / 44.62% / 2000 Shaquille O'Neal
45.56% / 50.82% / 46.96% / 2003 Tim Duncan
48.97% / 49.09% / 49.00% / 2006 Dwyane Wade
31.72% / 41.27% / 34.14% / 2009 Kobe Bryant
55.07% / 43.66% / 51.20% / 2012 LeBron James
52.66% / 46.88% / 51.19% / 2013 LeBron James
37.09% / 34.92% / 36.59% / 2015 Stephen Curry

I wanted to have no duplicates on the list but couldn't deny Jordan's and James' multiple 50+ seasons.
Nowitzki's 2011 run is not on there because BPM (thus VORP) design doesn't like off-ball oriented Nowitzki. 2019 Leonard did not match my 30+% share requirement (his regular season share was 29.19%).

As you can see, Wade is the only player that performed a very significant carry job and is yet to make our list. Personally, I hadn't realized Wade's regular season also being a top notch carry job. His numbers are on the same level as 1994 Hakeem Olajuwon and only third to Jordan and James.

Wade was able to carry his team like a top 10 player ever (maybe even top 5), shame that his prime was hampered by many injuries and got cut short with another injury...

---

Some other notes about what I did; winning has its unique impact on these numbers, that's why I looked at only title winning runs and did not include runs like 1977 Abdul-Jabbar, 1990 Jordan or 2009 James. Being a one-man army as it can get while winning and being an entire one-man army are different things.

27. Patrick Ewing
I think his defense, performance/quality/impact wise, a bit underrated. With Riley, he was the centre piece of one of the best defensive teams ever. I don't have the exact numbers as of now but when I compared Nash led offense in playoffs in Phoenix and Ewing led defense in playoffs from '92 to '96, they were pretty much on par. And we all know how great that Phoenix offense was. We just do not acknowledge the defensive quality of the NY team enough. Ewing was not entirely suitable to carry an offense, similar to Robinson. But he was still productive and his offensive production was resilient enough.

28. Elgin Baylor
This may seem too old school. And I'd already concede that Baylor was not the highest impact player. But he still had pretty good impact and his on court production was great. I think it's quite forgotten that Baylor had a 41/18/4 series against the Celtics in '62. Bill Russell had to play arguably the best game 7 in the game history to deny Baylor and the Lakers. It's kind of unfair to Baylor, thinking that West gets so much love for '69 Finals but Baylor doesn't for '62 Finals.
Had he not gotten injured in '65, I think he'd be higher on this list.

[Jordan Syndrome]

I'm really interested in Miller vs Drexler vs Gervin vs Pippen vs Barry vs Havlicek vs Pierce vs Allen vs Baylor when ranking wings.

[DQuinn1575]

Here I go again:

I'm putting up a vote for Harden; he has 9 elite years in the modern era, and has been a scoring and passing machine. Team success hasn't been there, which is what keeps him from being ranked higher. But tons of points, efficiency, and playmaking. I think he is best choice out there.

I have Wade next - his play at best has been among the top of the league, leading a team to a title and being key in other years.

Right now I'm taking Walt Frazier third - I need to look at the candidates closer, but love the combination of scoring, defense, and playmaking. He had a major impact in an era with some great Laker, Buck, Knick, Bullets team, and is one of the best two way players ever.

1. Harden
2. Wade
3 Frazier

Guessing Wade gets in here, then looks like we will have jockeying for next level of players.

[penbeast0]

Again there are a bunch of guys I could support and the last couple of picks and the next several could all be easily swapped around without my feeling someone is out of place. My next guys are Baylor, Frazier, Ewing, Harden, Gervin, and Wade. Nash created great offenses and there are a lot of strong Nash supporters who don't need me to make his case. Because they are close, I can go with my prejudices a bit and eliminate Harden who is a great offensive player but seems lacking on the defensive and leadership ends of the spectrum. Gervin is weak in both defense and playmaking though his teams do reasonably well considering the talent around him. Baylor and Wade are incredible players individually but seemed to have some issues with health and inconsistency. This leaves me with Ewing and Frazier -- both great defensively, both very good offensively, both strong leaders. Frazier's case would be based on his great playoff performances, particularly in the finals. Like Hakeem or Jordan, he stepped up his game on the biggest stage. Ewing, on the other hand, has a long prime as a great player and is a center in an era where center is still influencing more plays than any other position. If I was starting a team and could pick one of these guys to start it with, it would be Ewing so I will go with that.

Behind them, I probably should vote Harden, he's clearly superior to Wade as a ball dominant star combo guard offensively but Wade was generally a good leader and much better defender. Harden also has some poor playoff showings. Elgin Baylor is also in the mix, similar to Wade but stayed dominant longer relative to his era. I am open to good non-emotional arguments to change this vote but for now, I'm going Elgin Baylor, then Wade, then Harden for my 3,4,5 spots.

1. Patrick Ewing
2. Walt Frazier
3. Elgin Baylor

[No-more-rings]

I'll be pretty blunt about this, it makes zero sense to me that Wade's still not making the list. It absolutely makes zero sense to me that Durant, Curry and Paul jumped Wade. Let's give Curry a major boost for the Warriors success which kept going on for another 2 seasons after 2017. What did Durant and Paul do since 2017 to jump Wade? Especially Paul.
Now, if there won't be another vote with Wade over Nash, Nash will win this round even though Wade got slightly more traction and the gap between Nash to Wade is smaller than the gap between Wade to Nash in the current tally.

Aside from the obvious longevity thing, even though Curry's longevity is objectively worse, i think there's 2 main things were at play.

1. Wade's prime ended like 8 or 9 years ago, and he wasn't really relevant his last like 2-3 years so i think that hurts him when comparing to guys who are still playing and are in or not far removed from their primes like Cp3, Curry and Durant. So i think their greatness is fresher in people's memories. I think that matters when they're considered similar caliber.

2. I think the game's transition into a highly oriented 3 point shooting league has hurt's Wade's perception in comparison to others, though it obviously shouldn't even Elgee said Wade might've been similar to Jordan if his prime occurred today. I think that hurts him in comparison to Nash because Nash was a much better all around shooter and he fits the precise mold of who you'd want running your offense today.

I still think there was a lot of inconsistencies in the arguments though. Context was often ignored or used depending on what side of the argument it fell on. It doesn't matter that Wade's offensive support was, but it did matter that Nash's defensive support was. It doesn't matter that Wade "could've" led great offenses because it's an assumption and never proved it, but somehow it's not an assumption that Nash could've won championships. He had good teams he didn't get it done, Wade had good teams and he did, but hey it doesn't matter.

With Curry, his championships and finals appearances mattered, but with Wade they didn't. It doesn't matter that Curry had the goat supporting cast in 2017 and 2018. It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter that he had his whole prime with likely one of the top 15 defenders ever.

[Cavsfansince84]

1. John Havlicek
-11x all nba 1st or 2nd team(4 1st)
-7x all nba defense(5 1st) and played 6 years before those were created
-7x top 10 in mvp voting
-8x champ and 1 fmvp(strong case in 69 as well averaging 28.1/11.0/4.4 on 52% ts)
-led 3 title teams in playoff scoring, assists and win shares(68, 69 and 74)
-great all around skills(led Celtics in scoring 7x, apg 7x, win shares 6x)
-great chemistry/leadership/hustle guy

2. Dwyane Wade
-this pick came down to 4-5 guys for me and it goes to Wade because I think his top 4-5 years are clearly the best out of the bunch. Plus his ability to carry teams both in the rs and ps which won him a ring in 06 and also his ability to play along as the #2 on two more title teams. I don't think anyone else can quite match his overall resume of remaining players.
-8x all nba(2 1st, 3 2nd)
-3x all nba defense 2nd team
-7x top 10 in mvp voting
-25th in career vorp
-incredible combination of strength, explosiveness and shot creation for a sg
-5 years with a ts add over 100 during prime as a volume scorer
-great 8 year prime where I would argue he was a top 5 player in the league for most of it(top 4 in bpm 6 times)

3. Walt Frazier
-I want to start this off by saying that I also strongly considered Ewing, Barry, Pippen and Harden for this spot. What I really like about Walt is that he is one of the things I most prize in any bb player which is someone who can do multiple things well and has no real weakness. Imo those are the players easiest to build title teams around. With Walt you get a floor leader, highly efficient scorer, very good passer/rebounder and goat level defender at his position. You also get a guy with very good size/athleticism and who could lift his game in the playoffs when necessary to win titles which he did(twice). The only thing he lacks is a lenghty prime(only 7-8 years) which I had to take into account and which kept me from voting for him until now.
-I also want to mention that those Knicks teams are considered to be quite talented and deep teams but that Frazier was leading them in ppg, apg and win shares in both rs and ps most every year from 1970-1975. During the 1973 title run he had 3.0 win shares followed by Monroe with 1.9 and Phil Jackson with 1.1 while leading them to wins over a 68 win Celtics team in the ecf and 60 win Laker team in the finals.
-6x all nba(4x 1st team)
-7x all defensive 1st team
-career ts add of 1109 with 4 straight years over 170 from 70-73 and 6 years over 100
-led offenses that were generally top 8 by ORtg peaking at top 3 twice
-from 69-75 playoffs averaged 21.2/7.2rpg/6.4apg on 56.4% ts including the 36/7/19 on 78%ts game 7 in the 1970 finals(imo deserved the fmvp)

[penbeast0]

I'll be pretty blunt about this, it makes zero sense to me that Wade's still not making the list. It absolutely makes zero sense to me that Durant, Curry and Paul jumped Wade. Let's give Curry a major boost for the Warriors success which kept going on for another 2 seasons after 2017. What did Durant and Paul do since 2017 to jump Wade? Especially Paul.
Now, if there won't be another vote with Wade over Nash, Nash will win this round even though Wade got slightly more traction and the gap between Nash to Wade is smaller than the gap between Wade to Nash in the current tally.

Aside from the obvious longevity thing, even though Curry's longevity is objectively worse, i think there's 2 main things were at play.

1. Wade's prime ended like 8 or 9 years ago, and he wasn't really relevant his last like 2-3 years so i think that hurts him when comparing to guys who are still playing and are in or not far removed from their primes like Cp3, Curry and Durant. So i think their greatness is fresher in people's memories. I think that matters when they're considered similar caliber.

2. I think the game's transition into a highly oriented 3 point shooting league has hurt's Wade's perception in comparison to others, though it obviously shouldn't even Elgee said Wade might've been similar to Jordan if his prime occurred today. I think that hurts him in comparison to Nash because Nash was a much better all around shooter and he fits the precise mold of who you'd want running your offense today.

I still think there was a lot of inconsistencies in the arguments though. Context was often ignored or used depending on what side of the argument it fell on. It doesn't matter that Wade's offensive support was, but it did matter that Nash's defensive support was. It doesn't matter that Wade "could've" led great offenses because it's an assumption and never proved it, but somehow it's not an assumption that Nash could've won championships. He had good teams he didn't get it done, Wade had good teams and he did, but hey it doesn't matter.

With Curry, his championships and finals appearances mattered, but with Wade they didn't. It doesn't matter that Curry had the goat supporting cast in 2017 and 2018. It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter that he had his whole prime with likely one of the top 15 defenders ever.

Why are you running posts from another thread where not a single other mentioned player is even eligible anymore? If you want to beat this dead horse some more, why not bring it up in the thread it was posted in. There are still active conversations going on in at least two threads where the voting is finished. If you want to answer the Wade fans arguments they are using now, please use the arguments they are posting in this thread against the competition in this thread. I'm not saying this as a mod and I'm not running this project but, sheesh.

[trex_8063]

I'm really interested in Miller vs Drexler vs Gervin vs Pippen vs Barry vs Havlicek vs Pierce vs Allen vs Baylor when ranking wings.

Well that's an easy debate, isn't it?

For the time being, I have them:
Pippen
Havlicek
Baylor
Drexler
Barry
Miller
Pierce
Gervin
Allen

.....with other wings like Harden and potentially Kawhi that need to be worked in, too. Even though there are NINE of them listed above, I have <25 places separating first from last on that list on my own ATL, and there are multiple spots where the guys listed are adjacent.

[trex_8063]

1st vote: Dwyane Wade
I think Wade is arguably the best peak left on the table save maybe Bill Walton. His longevity is lacking [durability was oft an issue], which is the only reason I've not supported him earlier.
But Wade was a crazy good slashing guard, with outstanding finishing ability for a SG (67.9% collectively for the solid decade of '06-'15, peaking at nearly 73%......that's gotta be near-GOAT tier for a SG) and terrific foul-draw rate.......these things combined ot make him a remarkable scorer in an all-time sense. Also an understated playmaker, imo, and in the GOAT-tier of help defenders from the SG position.
Box-based metrics put him at an MVP tier during his very best seasons, and he held up well in the playoffs before his body began breaking down (like around '13 and after).
He's in the company of players like Dirk and Chris Paul, and just barely behind Duncan [all of these guys already voted in] in terms of his multi-year impact measures, which would certainly seem to suggest he deserves some traction even with longevity that is lacking relative to the rest. His peak RAPM rivals basically anyone not named Lebron.

I'd posted some additional bits [part of an in-line discussion] pertaining to his '06 run in posts 104 and 121 of the #27 thread, too.


2nd vote: Patrick Ewing
Overshadowed in terms of DPOY and/or All-Defensive accolades because his career almost exactly overlaps with those of Hakeem, DRob, and Dikembe......I'm willing to bet Dwight Howard does no better on this front if his career overlapped with these guys.

But Ewing anchored [or at worst "co-anchored"] TWO of the greatest defensive squads in NBA history (two of the top 3-4 defenses of the last 30 years), while simultaneously being the 1st option on offense [even if he wasn't terrifically suited to that role]. There are not a lot of guys who can anchor an elite defense AND score 23-27 ppg [even if it is on average(ish) efficiency].

And Ewing had more than respectable longevity as well.
I know there isn’t a mainstream list that has Ewing in the top 30, though I think that’s because they’re all too often based heavily on media accolades [which he just misses out on by having career overlap with Hakeem, Robinson, and Mutombo] and rings.

I'll also quote this post of mine from prior thread:

Below are the 23 all-time greatest team defenses in all of NBA/ABA history (for simplicity, based just on rs rDRTG)....

'64 Celtics: -10.8
'65 Celtics: -9.4
'04 Spurs: -8.8
'08 Celtics: -8.6
'62 Celtics: -8.5
'63 Celtics: -8.5
'93 Knicks: -8.3
'94 Knicks: -8.1
'20 Bucks: -7.7
'52 Lakers: -7.6
'61 Celtics: -7.6
'04 Pistons: -7.5 (*even better late-season after acquiring Sheed)
'16 Spurs: -7.4
'14 Pacers: -7.4
'05 Spurs: -7.3
'99 Spurs: -7.2
'11 Celtics: -7.0
'11 Bulls: -7.0
'07 Bulls: -6.9
'66 Celtics: -6.6
'06 Spurs: -6.6
'07 Spurs: -6.6
'70 Knicks: -6.6


Just pointing out that TWO of the top 8 EVER were Ewing Knicks teams. Yes, these teams had an excellent defensive-minded coach, a roster packed with guys who were "more defense than offense". But still, you don't achieve those kinds of results without an all-time tier defensive big in the middle.
We're talking about TWO defenses that only ONE of Duncan's teams, ONE Garnett team, and only 4 (of 13) of Bill Russell's teams ever bested......NO ONE else managed better.
And note that there is not a single team of Hakeem's, or Dikembe's, or Wilt's, or any Utah team (Eaton/Gobert), or any ABA Gilmore team, etc on this list.

Because his shot block numbers don't quite stack up, Ewing is often held in substantially lower esteem defensively than some of his same-era peers......but he really wasn't far behind [at all] guys like Hakeem, DRob, Deke in their respective primes.
And he did so while being relied upon for anywhere from 22-29 ppg [on anywhere from -1% to +7% rTS].

I'm also going to remind everyone it basically took John Starks having the single-worst shooting night of his entire career in game 7 of the '94 Finals to put Hakeem and the Rockets over the Knicks for the title. If Ewing had a ring [and the FMVP that no doubt would have gone to him in that instance], I don't think Ewing would even still be on the table for this spot; he likely would have gone in the vicinity of Moses/Barkley.

3rd vote: Scottie Pippen
Somewhat set on this pick for my #3.
Was he a great scorer? No, he wasn't......but he was a good one.
Was he a great rebounding SF? No, he wasn't......but he was a [really] good one.
Was he a great playmaking SF? Here I'd hedge toward yes. Not Lebron-level, or Bird-level either; but REALLY damn good in this regard. A stronger feature than his scoring or rebounding, imo.
Was he a great defensive SF? Duh.

Add all those things up, and this becomes somewhat the ultimate utility knife, and someone who is pretty portable on excellent teams, too. He's got the rep of the GOAT #2 for how he meshed with Jordan to form a dynasty.
He didn't mesh half-bad [at least in terms of play-style] with a contender/near-contender Rockets team, despite being arguably past his prime.
Then he meshed well as a MAJOR contributor with a contender-level Blazer team [despite being more definitively past his prime].

The end result has left him 13th all-time in playoff WS (NBA and ABA) and 8th in playoff VORP [since 1973]; he's 45th and 24th, respectively, in the rs in those metrics.
In his late prime and early post-prime, his league rank in RAPM was 6th in '97, 21st in '98, tied for 30th in '99, still solid [+2.5] in '00.
His rs pseudo-APM rank in '94-'96 were 18th, 5th, and 4th in the league.

And overall 15 seasons of actual "value added" for his career.

Among players still on the table, I would say Kidd and Hondo are the only ones somewhat close for me.

[Doctor MJ]

Hey y'all,

Just wanted to say that I've snapped at some people and I don't like it. When I get like this I tend to step away from RealGM for a while, but I don't want to leave this project, so I'm just going to try to step back my argumentation and really try to be a positive force. I'll still post, I'll still vote, but I'm actively going to try not to argue against others for a while because it's carrying me away.

This project is important to me, and I don't want to push it in a toxic direction. I want people to enjoy this, and I want to enjoy it too.

Cheers,
Doc

[Magic Is Magic]

Voting for the #29 spot:


1. James Harden
2. Scottie Pippen
3. Kawhi Leonard

1. Harden dropped 36 ppg in the modern era! He also accumulated three scoring titles, an MVP, and an assist title. Very few have won both an assist and scoring title in their NBA career. Not to mention he is an 8x all-star, but the thing holding him back the most is lack of Finals appearances and rings. He only has 1 Finals appearance, although I feel if CP3 didn't get hurt in 2018 playoffs then Harden most likely wins his first title and possibly the FMVP. I can't count LeBron out completely in 2018 but if Chris Paul doesn't get hurt in 2018 then Harden likely wins his 1st ring (finally). Harden also has 6x all NBA 1st teams (more than some guys voted before him such as: Barkley, Erving, Dirk, KG, Moses, Robinson, Russell, Curry, & Nash [And Wade and Pippen if people are voting them in]).


2. Talk about a true swiss army knife of basketball. The ultimate #2 option for a vast number of reasons. Capable of 20 ppg during an era where most #2 options did not score 20 with consistency. Pippen also is a really good rebounder, and his team's offensive playmaker (assist leader), the team's defensive anchor, and ultimate glue guy. He only had 2 seasons on his own as the #1 option but already his RS peak was 3rd in MVP voting (1994) so that matches Wade's best MVP run, but Pippen also has the 6 rings to Wade's 3. Additionally, Pippen's 8x all Defensive 1st teams is the second most all time and his 10 overall selections is 5th most in NBA HISTORY. Pip also has 3x 1st team all NBA selections, which is more 1st team all NBAs than: Wade, Stockton, Nash, Payton (2). Lastly, his ability to take a 57 win team after losing the greatest player in the world for lowly Pete Myers and only dropping off by 2 wins (to 55) was beyond incredible. I feel Pippen could have won a championship that year if he had someone good (but did not need Jordan) to win it. With a lesser talent than MJ he would have won, even with someone like Reggie or Mitch Richmond could have been enough for Pippen to win that year. Pippen also won over 30 playoff series which is good for 5th all time (if I'm not mistaken). Big time winner, big time longevity, and he really did it all. Pass, Shoot, Defend, Playmake, Lead.

3. Kawhi would be a lot higher if he didn't "load manage" and had more longevity. Only time will tell if this changes but I doubt it. He has done some extraordinary things such as winning back-to-back DPOY awards and 2x FMVP. If I recall correctly only Kawhi and Hakeem have ever achieved such a feat (B2B DPOY winner and winner of 2x FMVP). His 2019 run was also very impressive:

31/9/4 on splits of 49/38/88 (very close to entire 50-40-90 run on over 30 ppg en route to a FMVP. If you value greatness on both ends of the ball then it would be hard to put many guys left ahead of Kawhi. He is elite on both ends, but again, his lack of longevity is hurting his resume along with him needing at least one regular season MVP or Scoring Title. Nearly all of the greats have them but him.

[eminence]

Hey y'all,

Just wanted to say that I've snapped at some people and I don't like it. When I get like this I tend to step away from RealGM for a while, but I don't want to leave this project, so I'm just going to try to step back my argumentation and really try to be a positive force. I'll still post, I'll still vote, but I'm actively going to try not to argue against others for a while because it's carrying me away.

This project is important to me, and I don't want to push it in a toxic direction. I want people to enjoy this, and I want to enjoy it too.

Cheers,
Doc

You can snap at me any time Doc

[Dutchball97]

1. Dwyane Wade - My vote once again remains the same here. Nash was a guy where I didn't see the post-season success to vote for him in the top 30. I was a bit surprised at the sudden comeback of Nash last round as Wade had a huge lead but it's whatever. Wade's longevity isn't great but not an issue at this point, especially when you consider his 06 run to the title. He should definitely make it here.

2. Kawhi Leonard - A diva, a negative leader and an injury liability with terrible longevity is all he is to some. I see a player who led a team to a ring with a performance that was historically great, a guy who can dominate on both ends on the floor, someone who has stepped up in the play-offs every single time and someone who really doesn't have that bad longevity compared to guys like Curry and Wade unless your version of longevity is solely centered around total regular season numbers as his play-off longevity is already waterproof.

3. Elgin Baylor - We're sticking to similar types of careers here. Baylor's prime was cut short due to injuries and he never really was the same after but Baylor in the early 60s was a monster that would've won a title or two probably if not for the Celtics. I feel like Baylor is often a bit overrated but at this point I think he's one of the best candidates left.

[70sFan]

I think it's the right time to consider Artis Gilmore - he's good mention for both longevity and peak guys.

He played 1329 games in his career and only his last season was meaningless - even as an 37 years old man he posted healthy 17/9/2 in 34 mpg, along with 17 PER, 66 TS% and .143 WS/48. He made also an all-star team.

Before Gilmore, Kentucky led by Dampier and Issel were 44-40 team with good offense and poor defense. Rookie Gilmore was drafted and 1972 Colonels became 68-16 team with -4.4 defense (giant +7 leap). He posted 24/18/3/5 on 62 TS% as a rookie and won the MVP award.

They lost in playoffs against Rick Barry led NY Nets team in 6 games, but Gilmore played fantastic. He posted 22/18/4 on 61 TS% and shut down Billy Paultz to 13 ppg on 45 TS%, but Issel shot 41% from the field (48 TS%) and they lost in a close series. Gilmore posted 24/18 on 80 TS% in deciding game by the way.

I don't have any rookie Gilmore game, but you can see him here battling with Chamberlain:

Watch on YouTube

As for peak, he led dominant Colonels team (58 wins, -6.4 defense) to the title in 1975 while posting 24/18/3 on 60 TS% in playoffs. It was one of the best individual seasons in NBA history:

Watch on YouTube

Then his team lost Issel and he put up 24/15/2 on 65 TS% in playoffs, including narrow 7 games loss against much better Nuggets team.

Watch on YouTube

Watch on YouTube

If you don't value ABA highly, then keep in mind that Gilmore wasn't bad in NBA at all. In his first season, he had to adjust to the NBA: in the first 16 games Bulls went 2-14 and Gilmore averaged only 17/13 on 52 TS%. After this very rough start, Bulls went 42-24 (52 wins pace, which would be 2nd in the league) in remaining games. This includes the second part of the season when Bulls went 27-14 (54 wins pace, the best in the league) when Gilmore averaged 21/14/3 on 60 TS% in only 37 mpg. He was MVP candidate in that season, but he wasn't recognised as such because of his and Bulls poor start. Then he went h2h against peak Bill Walton and played on even terms despite having significantly weaker supporting cast:

Watch on YouTube

In next two years, Gilmore averaged 23/13/3/2 on 61 TS% but his team got worse and worse. The last time he was the leader of strong team was in 1981 when similar situation to 1977 happened - Bulls had slow start with 10-19 record. They finished the season with 35-18 record (54 wins pace) and beating very solid Knicks team in playoffs. Then they got swept in playoffs by future champions, but I don't think you can have it against Gilmore. Gilmore averaged 18/10/2 on 70 TS% in this season and 18/11/2 on 64 TS% in playoffs.

Watch on YouTube

The last highlight of Gilmore's postseason play was his WCF series against Kareem in 1983 when he held his own against Jabbar with 20/14/2/3 on 62 TS% series. Spurs lost a close series in 6 games, but Gilmore got better and better, outplaying Jabbar in last two games:

Watch on YouTube

Gilmore is legitimate candidate at this point, as I don't think he's clearly worse player than Ewing and his longevity is even better.

[SpreeS]

I hope what Wade will be next. I dont understand so huge Mikan's rise from 25th into 19th place and Wade's fall from 22th into... 28th?

[Hal14]

28. Elgin Baylor
This may seem too old school. And I'd already concede that Baylor was not the highest impact player. But he still had pretty good impact and his on court production was great. I think it's quite forgotten that Baylor had a 41/18/4 series against the Celtics in '62. Bill Russell had to play arguably the best game 7 in the game history to deny Baylor and the Lakers. It's kind of unfair to Baylor, thinking that West gets so much love for '69 Finals but Baylor doesn't for '62 Finals.
Had he not gotten injured in '65, I think he'd be higher on this list.

It's not too old school at all. I think if anything, Baylor has been getting disrespected in this poll - he's been disrespected on this forum for awhile. West was voted in at no. 13, but Baylor had just as many all NBA first team selections, was bigger, stronger, better rebounder..a strong scorer, passer and defender, had 61 points and 22 rebounds in a finals win over Russell's Celtics yet we're on the no. 28 spot and Baylor still isn't getting love.

If anything, shows the recency bias on this board.

[Hal14]

1. Elgin Baylor
2. John Havlicek
3. Isiah Thomas

Pettit just got voted in, but I'm voting for Baylor here. IMO Baylor is slightly better than Pettit because Baylor was faster, better passer and better ball handler. And in terms of impact, Baylor was Dr. J before Dr. J. Baylor was Connie Hawkins before Connie Hawkins. Jordan modeled his game after Dr. J, as did Dominique Wilkins. Kobe and LeBron modeled their game after Jordan. Baylor was a pioneer. He paved the way for all of the explosive, big, strong, athletic wings to come later.

Also, Pettit's crowning achievement was his 50 point, 19 rebound game to led the Hawks to the win in game 6 over the Celtics to clinch the 1958 NBA championship. However, Russell only played 20 minutes that game because he had a severely sprained ankle suffered in game 3 of that series. Baylor meanwhile, scored 61 points and pulled down 22 rebounds to lead the Lakers to a win over the Celtics in game 5 of the 1962 NBA finals, so Baylor put up better numbers and did it against a healthy Russell who played all 48 minutes of that game. Baylor also played all 48 minutes that game. Jerry West? He had 26 points, 4 rebounds and 0 assists.

Baylor is the best all-around player left on the board IMO when you take into account his scoring, rebounding, passing, defense, ball handling and ability to score/defend both inside and outside.

Baylor and Pettit are both very close and it's definitely debatable which was the greater player. I think both have a case to be top 20 of all time. Scary to think how good they would have been if they played in the modern era with the advantage of 50 years of advances in basketball skills, more favorable rule changes, less days off between games, better equipment, better facilities, better weight training, better nutrition, better sports science, etc. Pettit was voted in several spots ago - it's Baylor's time now.

Baylor's teammate Jerry West is the no. 13 player on this list. And while I do have West ranked ahead of Baylor all-time, it is very close, so if West is no. 13 then Baylor could definitely be the no. 28 guy, considering that when they were teammates, Baylor was often times the better player. Lakers broadcaster Chick Hearn was quoted saying that Baylor was the best player he covered - not West. West is quoted saying that Baylor was better than him. Dr. J ranks Baylor as one of his top 5 players ever. Both Baylor and West made first team all NBA 10 times. Baylor was a better rebounder than West, a bigger, stronger more powerful player who could score and defend just as well inside as he could outside.

Anyone thinking Baylor isn't a top 28 player ever, I invite you to watch these videos:

Watch on YouTube

Watch on YouTube

Hondo is in my no. 2 spot here. 8 titles (8-0 in the NBA finals), Celtics all time leading scorer, outstanding defensive player, strong clutch player, 1 NBA finals MVP.

And yes, I do have Isiah ranked slightly ahead of Stockton and Nash. Isiah, Stockton and Nash - all 3 of them had good careers, and had good supporting casts. But of the 3, Nash is the only 1 who could never make it to the NBA finals and he's also the only one who couldn't play a lick of defense. Plus he struggled his first few years when the game was more physical, had less spacing and more geared towards big men/post play (a.k.a. the environment that Isiah played his whole career in and Stockton played his entire prime in) and wasn't until rule changes, no more hand checking, no more hard fouls, more spacing, the rise of the 3-point shot, D'Antoni's system - defense got much weaker in 05, etc. it wasn't until then that Nash dominated.

In this video at the 14:45 mark, Bill Simmons says, "And then David Stern changed the rules so you could succeed"

Watch on YouTube

At the 49:35 mark of this video, Isiah says, "the game today, it favors the point guards and the small players. The era that I won in, the rules were geared towards the bigger players."

Watch on YouTube

Stockton made it to the finals twice, but a) that was after Isiah retied and b) Stockton's Jazz team lost to Jordan's Bulls both times. Meanwhile, during the time when Stockton and Isiah were both in their prime, Isiah made it to 3 NBA finals, won 2 championships and would have been 3 if not for the phantom foul call on Laimbeer in 88, which even Pat Riley admits was a BS call:

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2103545-pat-riley-admits-84-lakers-benefited-from-phantom-foul-vs-detroit-pistons

And while Stockton's team lost to Jordan's Bulls twice in the finals, Isiah's Pistons beat Jordan's Bulls 3 times in the playoffs, and beat Magic's Lakers in 89, would have beat Magic Lakers in 88 if not for Phantom Foul and beat Bird's Celtics in 88..

Yes, it's a team game and Isiah had a strong supporting cast, but Isiah was the Piston's best player his entire career except for the very end of his career when he had injuries and the Pistons were a joke before they drafted him.

[Dutchball97]

Isiah Thomas is another guy I'm very interested to see where he ends up. I'm not exactly sure where I personally think he should be ranked either. He's one of the next few point guards up but I think there are a couple great wings that probably should get in first.

[Hal14]

I'm really interested in Miller vs Drexler vs Gervin vs Pippen vs Barry vs Havlicek vs Pierce vs Allen vs Baylor when ranking wings.

Baylor
Havlicek
Barry
Pippen

Drexler
Gervin
Pierce

Miller
Allen