1st vote: Jason KiddThe major critique(s) he sustains are the poor efficiency shooting and the lack of great offenses with him at the helm. otoh, I think he's arguably the greatest transition passer of all-time [I'll submit that one video below], and a solid creation passer in the half-court, too, who fairly consistently had some really good ORAPM's in his prime [frequently top 5-10 in the league, I think one even as high as 3rd].
Additionally he's a rare breed of PG who can actually kinda co-anchor elite defenses.
I'll point out that [in an era of already quite low league average ORtg/DRtg] he was a part of three consecutive elite defenses with rDRTG's of -5.0 [1st of 29], -5.5 [1st of 29], and -4.9 [4th of 29]. All three of these were achieved WITHOUT an elite rim-protector in the middle. For that matter, they followed that period up with a couple more very good ones (-3.0 and -3.8, respectively).
I don't want to give you the impression Kidd was definitively the anchor; they were very much "ensemble efforts".......but it's also hard to definitively peg any other ONE member of those Nets teams as MORE important to their defensive success than Kidd.
The '02 Nets displayed some pretty good 3pt defense---despite being one of the faster paced teams in the league, they allowed the 13th-fewest 3PA while also being 10th [of 29] in 3pt% allowed. And unlike, for example, recent Utah Jazz teams, they didn't achieve that by running guys off the line with confidence because of the rim protector they have behind them [because again: the best rim protectors were guys like Kenyon Martin and Todd MacCulloch]; this was simple stout defense by the perimeter core [of which Kidd played more minutes----handily---than anyone].
They managed this while also maintaining a pretty low opponent FTAr (10th of 29), which usually involves not allowing defensive breakdowns on the perimeter.
But their best defensive FF was opp TOV% (3rd in league)......and Kidd led the team in both steals and STL%.
They were also decent on the defensive glass, where Kidd was the team's 2nd-best defensive rebounder.
They other aspect they really excelled at [which I touched on a bit wrt 3pt defense] is opp eFG%, which again always felt like an ensemble effort with this team.
With the '03 team [their single-best defense], their 3pt defense was merely average; it was their 2pt defense that was outstanding [resulting in them being 4th in opp eFG%]. I think moving Jason Collins into a larger minute role helped [outstanding rotational defender, pnr defender], and they got 514 minutes from an aging Dikembe. But mostly an ensemble effort with few defensive weak spots in the rotation.
But again their BEST defensive FF was opp TOV% (and again Kidd leads in both steals and STL%).
And he's again one of their best defensive rebounders (they were 6th in DREB%).
The '04 squad shakes out similarly, with their best defensive FF being DREB% and opp TOV% (with Kidd again being one of their best defensive rebounders AND leading the team in steals and STL%).
His overall RAPM league rank during the heart of his prime:
'02: 5th
'03: 5th
'04: tied for 4th
'05: 6th
'06: tied for 17th
'07: tied for 17th
With mostly solid [often top 25ish] RAPM on either side of these years.......and ALWAYS while playing BIG minutes and missing very few games.
He was an integral part of a title team in '11 [in his 17th season], and still a solid contributor on a decent Knicks team in his 19th and final season, when his athleticism was just shot. The guy simply knew how to ball, though.
From my perspective, I don't think it can be definitively said that someone like John Havlicek was any better. Nor can one say Hondo had better longevity. Halvicek had a more "storied" career [which to some degree may just mean he was luckier].
I certainly think Kidd deserves traction in the same region of the list as players like Havlicek and Pippen.
2nd vote: Elgin BaylorHave been tossing around a lot of names [the circa-30 region of my ATL is VERY much a floating order.....I could see going a lot of different ways]. But I've decided I'm going with Baylor.
I think he's often dinged [around here] for being clearly a tier below his teammate Jerry West.......but West went in 19 places ago, so I don't think it's unreasonable at all to give Elgin some serious consideration here.
Ironically, I feel like his '62 campaign in particular exemplifies how good he was. This was the year he was mostly away from the team in service for the Army Reserves: so he didn't get to work-out or practice with the team, and only got to play a limited number of games [when allowed away]. Fun story as to how big a deal Baylor was to fans: apparently the box-office would get calls ahead of Laker games asking if Baylor was playing that night......and games he dressed for averaged ~3,000 more fans [iirc] than the ones he missed.
Despite the unusual circumstances, Baylor averaged an absurd 38.3/18.6/4.6 per game.
Yes, pace was crazy. But still, even in pace adjusted per 100 possessions this came to an estimated 33.6 pts (@ +1.34% rTS), 16.3 reb, 4.1 ast, while playing a ridiculous
44.4 mpg.
And it's hard to ascribe only small impact to this: the Lakers were 17-15 (which would be on pace for 43-44 wins in an 82-game season) without him, but 37-11 (on pace for just over 63 wins in an 82-game season) with him. Adding 20 wins to an already decent team is no small achievement (I believe the SRS difference was similar in proportion; like +4 or thereabouts iirc).
This is also the year Baylor averaged 40.6 ppg (@ +3.1% rTS), 17.9 rpg, and 3.7 apg in the NBA Finals against Russell and the Celtics, taking them to 7 games (and losing game 7 by just 3 pts). This was the series in which [in game 5] Baylor scored an efficient 61 pts, while also grabbing 22 rebound [no one else not named Bill Russell was in within even 10 rebounds of him] in a 5-pt Laker victory.
And overall he's just got a lot of years in which he was really filling that stat-sheet, respectable WOWYR for this stage of the project, too. Led the Lakers to an unlikely finals appearance in his rookie year with really no noteworthy supporting cast, a number of accolades, and steady high-praise from contemporaries.
It's robust enough of a resume I've decided to go with him here.
3rd vote: John HavlicekHe's more or less right there with my first two votes; it's really slivers between in this range, and honestly I flux a lot over time in this range of my list.
"Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience." -George Carlin
"The fact that a proposition is absurd has never hindered those who wish to believe it." -Edward Rutherfurd