RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #33 (Elgin Baylor)

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RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #33 (Elgin Baylor) 

Post#1 » by trex_8063 » Sat Dec 19, 2020 1:31 am

2020 List
1. LeBron James
2. Michael Jordan
3. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
4. Bill Russell
5. Tim Duncan
6. Wilt Chamberlain
7. Magic Johnson
8. Shaquille O'Neal
9. Hakeem Olajuwon
10. Larry Bird
11. Kevin Garnett
12. Kobe Bryant
13. Jerry West
14. Oscar Robertson
15. Dirk Nowitzki
16. Karl Malone
17. David Robinson
18. Julius Erving
19. George Mikan
20. Moses Malone
21. Charles Barkley
22. Kevin Durant
23. Chris Paul
24. Stephen Curry
25. Bob Pettit
26. John Stockton
27. Steve Nash
28. Dwyane Wade
29. Patrick Ewing
30. Walt Frazier
31. James Harden
32. Scottie Pippen
33. ????

This one will end somewhere around 8-9pm EST on Sunday.


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Hal14 wrote:.

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Re: RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #33 

Post#2 » by Hal14 » Sat Dec 19, 2020 1:50 am

Hal14 wrote:1. Elgin Baylor
2. John Havlicek
3. Isiah Thomas

Pettit was voted in several rounds ago, but IMO Baylor is slightly better than Pettit because Baylor was faster, better passer and better ball handler. And in terms of impact, Baylor was Dr. J before Dr. J. Baylor was Connie Hawkins before Connie Hawkins. Jordan modeled his game after Dr. J, as did Dominique Wilkins. Kobe and LeBron modeled their game after Jordan. Baylor was a pioneer. He paved the way for all of the explosive, big, strong, athletic wings to come later.

Also, Pettit's crowning achievement was his 50 point, 19 rebound game to led the Hawks to the win in game 6 over the Celtics to clinch the 1958 NBA championship. However, Russell only played 20 minutes that game because he had a severely sprained ankle suffered in game 3 of that series. Baylor meanwhile, scored 61 points and pulled down 22 rebounds to lead the Lakers to a win over the Celtics in game 5 of the 1962 NBA finals, so Baylor put up better numbers and did it against a healthy Russell who played all 48 minutes of that game. Baylor also played all 48 minutes that game. Jerry West? He had 26 points, 4 rebounds and 0 assists.

Baylor is the best all-around player left on the board IMO when you take into account his scoring, rebounding, passing, defense, ball handling and ability to score/defend both inside and outside.

Baylor and Pettit are both very close and it's definitely debatable which was the greater player. I think both have a case to be top 20 of all time. Scary to think how good they would have been if they played in the modern era with the advantage of 50 years of advances in basketball skills, more favorable rule changes, less days off between games, better equipment, better facilities, better weight training, better nutrition, better sports science, etc. Pettit was voted in several spots ago - it's Baylor's time now.

Baylor's teammate Jerry West is the no. 13 player on this list. And while I do have West ranked ahead of Baylor all-time, it is very close, so if West is no. 13 then Baylor could definitely be the no. 33 guy, considering that when they were teammates, Baylor was often times the better player. Lakers broadcaster Chick Hearn was quoted saying that Baylor was the best player he covered - not West. West is quoted saying that Baylor was better than him. Dr. J ranks Baylor as one of his top 5 players ever. Both Baylor and West made first team all NBA 10 times. Baylor was a better rebounder than West, a bigger, stronger more powerful player who could score and defend just as well inside as he could outside.

Anyone thinking Baylor isn't a top 33 player ever, I invite you to watch these videos:





Hondo is in my no. 2 spot here. 8 titles (8-0 in the NBA finals), Celtics all time leading scorer, outstanding defensive player, strong clutch player, 1 NBA finals MVP.

And yes, I do have Isiah ranked slightly ahead of Stockton and Nash. Isiah, Stockton and Nash - all 3 of them had good careers, and had good supporting casts. But of the 3, Nash is the only 1 who could never make it to the NBA finals and he's also the only one who couldn't play a lick of defense. Plus he struggled his first few years when the game was more physical, had less spacing and more geared towards big men/post play (a.k.a. the environment that Isiah played his whole career in and Stockton played his entire prime in) and wasn't until rule changes, no more hand checking, no more hard fouls, more spacing, the rise of the 3-point shot, D'Antoni's system - defense got much weaker in 05, etc. it wasn't until then that Nash dominated.

Stockton made it to the finals twice, but a) that was after Isiah retied and b) Stockton's Jazz team lost to Jordan's Bulls both times. Meanwhile, during the time when Stockton and Isiah were both in their prime, Isiah made it to 3 NBA finals, won 2 championships and would have been 3 if not for the phantom foul call on Laimbeer in 88, which even Pat Riley admits was a BS call:

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2103545-pat-riley-admits-84-lakers-benefited-from-phantom-foul-vs-detroit-pistons

And while Stockton's team lost to Jordan's Bulls twice in the finals, Isiah's Pistons beat Jordan's Bulls 3 times in the playoffs, and beat Magic's Lakers in 89, would have beat Magic Lakers in 88 if not for Phantom Foul and beat Bird's Celtics in 88..

Yes, it's a team game and Isiah had a strong supporting cast, but Isiah was the Piston's best player his entire career except for the very end of his career when he had injuries and the Pistons were a joke before they drafted him.
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Re: RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #33 

Post#3 » by prolific passer » Sat Dec 19, 2020 2:07 am

Elgin Baylor as a rookie knocked the defending champs with the mvp out of the playoffs. That allowed the lakers to play the hawks tough in 60 and 61. Also I think he dunked on Bill Russell.
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Re: RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #33 

Post#4 » by penbeast0 » Sat Dec 19, 2020 2:22 am

#1 Elgin Baylor. I know there have been a lot of questions about Baylor taking more shots than the more efficient Jerry West but at his peak he was a force with his scoring, his rebounding, decent passer, good guy. His teams had a lot of team success but couldn't get past Bill Russell -- something which could be said for pretty much everyone else from his era. I just think he's the most talented long career guy remaining. Havlicek was his peer but Baylor was a better scorer, much better rebounder, and did it against teams that gamed more for him; Havlicek is the better defender but in this case I don't think it's enough.

Best remaining big is probably Gilmore, Dwight Howard would be the main competition unless I'm forgetting someone. Maybe Robert Parish or Kevin McHale? Pau Gasol? I've heard Lanier's name come up but eye test, he was a somewhat lazy, passive defender and the stats (outside of outlier season 1974) don't indicate anything different to me . . . either the individual ones or the team defensive Drtg.

Forwards I have Havlicek over Barry of those who have been getting play. One of these two is a class act who plays defense and sacrifices for the team; one . . . isn't. Barry's is the better scorer, rebounder, passer but not the better player if you are trying to build a team. He is coming soon I guess but not yet for me.

Gervin is the best scorer left. I will look at him v. Reggie Miller who was more efficient on lesser volume. His trouble is he brings almost nothing else (decent rebounding and good shotblocking for a wing but which didn't translate to good defense); of course, neither did Miller. George was much more highly rated while playing (ppg v. efficiency always tends to skew publicly toward PPG; usually way more than justified); Reggie had a much longer career.

At PG there is Jason Kidd who brings great defense, good (but in my opinion often greatly overrated) playmaking, and poor shooting through his prime, greatly improving in his old age as he tried to do less, took more 3's, and played less defense. Gary Payton gets you a lot more points but also without great efficiency, maybe better man defense but not the GOAT PG rebounding that was a bit of a game changer with Kidd and Kidd was the better playmaker. Isiah would be the 3rd guard in most people's mix, underrated tough defender, overrated scorer, good playmaker, I don't think he's up yet.

Trying to think who I am missing. Great defenders like Mutombo and Bobby Jones but Mutombo has bad hands, Jones is the Manu Ginobli of forwards with limited ability to stay out on the floor for his NBA career, same for Kawhi except Kawhi also seems to have locker room issues and his defense waned as his offense waxed. I would probably go for both Jones and Manu over Kawhi though I know Kawhi is already on people's radar. I'd rather have less minutes a game but a consistent rotation than someone who doesn't play a lot of the games though another playoff run could certainly swing my perception.

1. Elgin Baylor
2. George Gervin
3. Reggie Miller
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Re: RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #33 

Post#5 » by Hal14 » Sat Dec 19, 2020 3:54 am

penbeast0 wrote: Best remaining big is probably Gilmore, Dwight Howard would be the main competition unless I'm forgetting someone. Maybe Robert Parish or Kevin McHale? I've heard Lanier's name come up but eye test, he was a somewhat lazy, passive defender and the stats (outside of outlier season 1974) don't indicate anything different to me . . . either the individual ones or the team defensive Drtg.

Best remaining big? Yeah, probably Gilmore, but if we're looking strictly at C and not PF...I'd say Gilmore/Reed/Thurmond are all on the same tier..Cowens might be on same tier or maybe just below those 3. After that it gets debatable between Lanier/Bellamy/Mutombo/Mourning/Issel/Parish/Unseld. Howard in there somewhere too, I just usually prefer to rank retired players because you're able to take a look back at their career as a whole after it's over..

At PF, Hayes and McHale are the next guys up who haven't been voted in. After that you have Schayes and Rodman
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Re: RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #33 

Post#6 » by Dutchball97 » Sat Dec 19, 2020 10:55 am

Didn't have Pippen on my ballot, so it remains the same as last round.

1. Kawhi Leonard - You win championships in the play-offs and while a bit lacking in regular season total stats, he's probably the strongest play-off performer left. If you buy into the Kawhi bashing that's been popular ever since he joined the Clippers and think he lucked into a title with the Raptors then I understand him being this high is hard. To me though, his 2019 run is a signature season that's surpassed by only a handful of people. His play-offs longevity and peak are great and that is what matters to me the most.

2. Elgin Baylor - Baylor's first few years are really, really good. It's a shame his prime was cut short due to injuries but he has enough of a resume that his strong peak makes up for it like with Kawhi. It's a bit difficult to determine how effective older players really were but around here seems right to me.

3. John Havlicek - Barry, Pippen and Harden all have arguments here as well (along with others that slip my mind probably) but I'm going with Havlicek here. I was leaning Barry at first due to his very strong 75 peak along with some other good years as a first option but Barry spending most of his prime in the relatively weak early ABA and shooting significantly worse in the NBA makes me a bit hesitant to vote for him. Havlicek is a winner, plain and simple. He was arguably the best player on the 68 and 69 title teams or at least a close second to Russell. Then he took the Celtics to another title in 74 as the clear best player on the team.
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Re: RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #33 

Post#7 » by penbeast0 » Sat Dec 19, 2020 1:56 pm

Havlicek is a worthy candidate here but I think your are overstating your case. Looking at the 70 Celtics makes it pretty clear who the best player on the 69 team (and every other Celtics team since he came into the league) was. And, I don't think it's close.

And I don't think it's clear that Havlicek was the best player in 74. He was the best offensive player but Cowens was the 2nd highest scorer, pulled down over 15 rebounds a game, and was the emotional and defensive leader of that team. It wasn't clear to the MVP voters either who had Cowens 4th in the MVP vote that year while Havlicek was down tied for 9th in the got one non 1st place vote range. So, contemporary observers (including me) thought Cowens was the team's best player pretty much throughout his prime.
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Re: RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #33 

Post#8 » by DQuinn1575 » Sat Dec 19, 2020 7:23 pm

penbeast0 wrote:Havlicek is a worthy candidate here but I think your are overstating your case. Looking at the 70 Celtics makes it pretty clear who the best player on the 69 team (and every other Celtics team since he came into the league) was. And, I don't think it's close.

And I don't think it's clear that Havlicek was the best player in 74. He was the best offensive player but Cowens was the 2nd highest scorer, pulled down over 15 rebounds a game, and was the emotional and defensive leader of that team. It wasn't clear to the MVP voters either who had Cowens 4th in the MVP vote that year while Havlicek was down tied for 9th in the got one non 1st place vote range. So, contemporary observers (including me) thought Cowens was the team's best player pretty much throughout his prime.


Agreed that Cowens at peak was better than Havlicek, his problem obviously is longevity; I'd argue Cowens with 11 prime years would be Top 20 or so. Havlicek isn't as good, but did it for a long time. He led 3 championship teams in win shares, and had years in the top of the league in scoring, passing, and defense (multiple years all-defense). Peakwise he is not player number 33, but he is someone who was impactful and in the top 10 players for many many years.

I'll turn this reply into my official vote, in case I dont get to this later:

Elgin Baylor has become underrated as the pendulum swings. Truth is that he did have 2 bad years of shooting, but he is a volume scorer who performed well in playoffs, an excellent rebounder, and has passing skills and success that most dont realize. Carried a team better than Pippen, which is true of all 3 of these guys, and had more good seasons than Barry, who are probably my next two right now.

Rick Barry carried maybe the worst starting lineup to a championship. He also led a team to take 2 wins in the finals against one of the best teams of all-time. Besides his scoring skills, he was an excellent passer. Not a defensive star, but held his own on that side of the court.

[b]
1. Havlicek
2. Baylor
3. Barry
[/b]
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Re: RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #33 

Post#9 » by Doctor MJ » Sat Dec 19, 2020 8:06 pm

Hey, I'm going to repost a previous post of mine from the #31 thread which I said toward the end as someone suggested that a lot of people probably missed it.

Because the conversation is focused on Harden who is already in, I'm going to put it in spoilers so as not to annoy people, but know that I'm not trying to re-fight an old battle.

I think people are seeing my arguments relating to longevity and legacy and are just not sure what to make of it, and I think I explained it in this post about as well as I can. So for those interested, please read and feel free to ask me questions.

As I try to say each time: I'm not saying "only my way is right", but there's clearly been an allegation of incoherence about my thought process that I strongly object to, so if people are just looking to converse about that meta, I think this is a good place to do it.

Cheers,
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Doctor MJ wrote:
Spoiler:
LA Bird wrote:
Okay, and let's look back at playoff performances using an established standard candle, WS/48. Here's the list of Harden & Kawhi's top playoffs by that metric:

1. Kawhi 2017: .314
2. Kawhi 2016: .271
3. Harden 2020: .253
4. Kawhi 2019: .249
5. Kawhi 2020: .228
6. Harden 2015: .202
7. Kawhi 2013: .194
8. Harden 2011: .193
9. Kawhi 2014: .191
10. Harden 2019: .189

Seems pretty clear that Kawhi in general has been the stronger performer by this metric.

All caveats apply about WS/48 not being the holy grail of player evaluation. I completely respect an opinion of literally Harden > Kawhi, but if you think Kawhi > Harden but choose Harden based on longevity, I just think it has to be noted that that massive difference between longevity really disappears when you look solely at the playoffs.

You keep saying WS/48 is not the holy grail but then everything is WS/48 this and WS/48 that. Where was this in previous rounds?


The phrase "standard candle" is meant to imply that I'm using something that everyone can understand and use as a 1st pass basis for comparison. Want to use a different one, use a different one.

Why am I using a standard candle? Because what I'm trying to show here is that there's a consistent trend toward Kawhi over an extended period of time. That stat is just in general preferring Kawhi to Harden and when you see it all presented next to each other, this I think makes it hard to really think of it as if Kawhi's career is a blip on the radar.

The reality is that if you're someone who only pays attention to the playoffs in the 2010's, you probably think Kawhi has both been better and accomplished more than Harden.

You personally can disagree with that, but you should be able to "see" the picture I'm painting.

As far as why I use a 1st pass metric instead of something else, I mean, I'm using everything I can think of and that includes all sorts of non-quantitative stuff.

LA Bird wrote:1. Kawhi 2017: .314
2. Kawhi 2016: .271
3. Kobe 2001: .260
4. Kawhi 2019: .249
5. Kobe 2009: .238
6. Kawhi 2020: .228
7. Kawhi 2013: .194
8. Kawhi 2014: .191
9. Kobe 2010: .190
10. Kobe 2008: .178

Does Kobe's longevity advantage disappear when we look at the playoffs too? After all, 13 Kawhi > 08 Kobe and 19 Harden in postseason WS/48. And if peak is so much more important than longevity, why are you voting for Havlicek over Kawhi in this very same thread even though his peak doesn't even come close? There is no consistency if you get to choose between peak and longevity depending on whichever player it is you are building an argument around.


Okay, this is an understandable thought. Here's my process in a nutshell:

I'm trying to gauge indelible legacy based on what a player's play and other impact has accomplished with an eye toward factoring in things that cold be put under the umbrella of "degree of difficulty".

This is what I would call a top-down philosophy which differs from the bottom-up approach of those entirely focused on granular data. I feel a need to use the top-down approach because it's just plain true that not every game, minute, or bucket counts the same.

The most simplistic version of top-down would probably be RINGZ! and to be clear, my approach is the furthest thing from simple. However "good" or "bad", "right" or "wrong" it is, it's complicated and basically impossible to put everything on my mind down for others. As I've said, in the end, I try to look at everything in terms of A vs B player comparisons rather than relying on a metric.

To talk through Kobe & Havlicek along with Harden & Kawhi.

I see both Kobe & Havlicek as having had greater legacy in what they've done than Harden & Kawhi. A significant part of this is that they are revered by a fanbase because they did a ton of great things for that fanbase.

I'll note that Kobe - like a fool - demanded a trade to the Chicago Bulls at one time so he could go play with Luol Deng. Had that happened, chances are Kobe never wins another title and his stature in my GOAT list would be lower. But that trade never went down, he stayed, he won 2 more titles and had 3 more finals appearances, and now has a strong case to be have had the GOAT career with the GOAT franchise. Circumstances changed what he accomplished, and while he may be fortunate on that, and I certainly do look to prevent myself from getting carried away with the foolishness of most of Los Angeles on this front, what he did mattered.

If the NBA is still a thing 50 years from now, Kobe will still matter.

And there's a good chance Harden will not because to this point he's got a career largely tied to the Houston Rockets, and in addition to not getting a title, the final telling of his story in Houston is likely going to have to be "They kept getting rid of the stars the acquired to play with him because he couldn't get along with them, and then eventually they had no more assets left to play and Harden showed absolutely no loyalty."

In other words, Harden really should be having an end legacy in Houston that leaves him 1B to Hakeem's 1A even without the titles, but since things are likely to end with such a sour taste because of his behavior, he probably won't.

If all this seems wishy washy, do understand that I evaluate my own career the same way. After bouncing around various tech jobs, some of which were pretty cool, I became a teacher. I spent 3 years at the first school looking to build up everything I could there before deciding that I would be able to do more moving to another school in the district. I'm in my 7th year in the new school and I've put in a ton of effort establishing a legacy at the new campus and won't leave it on a whim. Staying in the same place, I'm an institution who can shape culture and mentor others on the staff. If I show up somewhere new, I've got none of that.

In the end, if you want your career to mean something, you've got to see the value in seeing certain things through and treating endings as well as beginnings with care.

Now you might say "Well but Harden doesn't see things this way, does it really make sense to judge him based on your standards?"

To which I'd say: Yes. Why? 1) Because it's my list so on one level it doesn't matter if I'm right, and 2) Because I've thought about this stuff more than just about 99.999% of people and I'm effective applying it in context. I'm not just relying on being better at my role than everyone else to the point that I have power over them, I'm going into my work domain with intention of every single interaction looking to build.

As I say all of that: This makes me sound more cocky than I am. The truth is, as I've been saying, is that I've been struggling with anger increasingly lately. As I'm essentially calling myself more mature than Harden, I have to own the fact that I have my own immaturities, and frankly they come out most with my online interactions.

But well, at least I'm not partying all across the country without taking any safety precautions during a pandemic and thus endangering the lives of others simply as an F.U. to an employer who has bent over backwards to make me happy and successful for years. Good news for me here is that it would be incredibly difficult for me to be as immature as Harden.

Last note:

I do want to make clear that while I tend to do my evaluation from what I tend to call a franchise-oriented perspective, I do try to recognize when a player is successfully building an orthogonal legacy, which Kawhi might be in the process of making.

Put it this way: If Kawhi had been the best player in the NBA last year and led the Clippers to a title, I recognize the legacy significance of being able to determine where you want to eventually play and win titles everywhere you stopped along the way.

At this point that's not Kawhi's legacy. Right now Kawhi is a guy who happened to play for 2 of the strongest coaches and cultures in the game, during which he won 2 titles, who then spurned them to go to another team with a good culture that he then toxified by insisting that the franchise treat him in a way that left all of his teammates resentful toward him.

But if Kawhi and the Clippers come back next year, Kawhi leads them to a title, and then Kawhi continues with his "hometown team" cementing his legacy as the greatest player in the franchises history, he's going to end up in a very different category in the collective basketball consciousness.

His legacy, in other words, is very much in flux. As is Harden's.
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Re: RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #33 

Post#10 » by trex_8063 » Sat Dec 19, 2020 9:02 pm

1st vote: Jason Kidd
The major critique(s) he sustains are the poor efficiency shooting and the lack of great offenses with him at the helm. otoh, I think he's arguably the greatest transition passer of all-time [I'll submit that one video below], and a solid creation passer in the half-court, too, who fairly consistently had some really good ORAPM's in his prime [frequently top 5-10 in the league, I think one even as high as 3rd].
Additionally he's a rare breed of PG who can actually kinda co-anchor elite defenses.
I'll point out that [in an era of already quite low league average ORtg/DRtg] he was a part of three consecutive elite defenses with rDRTG's of -5.0 [1st of 29], -5.5 [1st of 29], and -4.9 [4th of 29]. All three of these were achieved WITHOUT an elite rim-protector in the middle. For that matter, they followed that period up with a couple more very good ones (-3.0 and -3.8, respectively).

I don't want to give you the impression Kidd was definitively the anchor; they were very much "ensemble efforts".......but it's also hard to definitively peg any other ONE member of those Nets teams as MORE important to their defensive success than Kidd.

The '02 Nets displayed some pretty good 3pt defense---despite being one of the faster paced teams in the league, they allowed the 13th-fewest 3PA while also being 10th [of 29] in 3pt% allowed. And unlike, for example, recent Utah Jazz teams, they didn't achieve that by running guys off the line with confidence because of the rim protector they have behind them [because again: the best rim protectors were guys like Kenyon Martin and Todd MacCulloch]; this was simple stout defense by the perimeter core [of which Kidd played more minutes----handily---than anyone].
They managed this while also maintaining a pretty low opponent FTAr (10th of 29), which usually involves not allowing defensive breakdowns on the perimeter.
But their best defensive FF was opp TOV% (3rd in league)......and Kidd led the team in both steals and STL%.
They were also decent on the defensive glass, where Kidd was the team's 2nd-best defensive rebounder.
They other aspect they really excelled at [which I touched on a bit wrt 3pt defense] is opp eFG%, which again always felt like an ensemble effort with this team.

With the '03 team [their single-best defense], their 3pt defense was merely average; it was their 2pt defense that was outstanding [resulting in them being 4th in opp eFG%]. I think moving Jason Collins into a larger minute role helped [outstanding rotational defender, pnr defender], and they got 514 minutes from an aging Dikembe. But mostly an ensemble effort with few defensive weak spots in the rotation.
But again their BEST defensive FF was opp TOV% (and again Kidd leads in both steals and STL%).
And he's again one of their best defensive rebounders (they were 6th in DREB%).

The '04 squad shakes out similarly, with their best defensive FF being DREB% and opp TOV% (with Kidd again being one of their best defensive rebounders AND leading the team in steals and STL%).

His overall RAPM league rank during the heart of his prime:
'02: 5th
'03: 5th
'04: tied for 4th
'05: 6th
'06: tied for 17th
'07: tied for 17th

With mostly solid [often top 25ish] RAPM on either side of these years.......and ALWAYS while playing BIG minutes and missing very few games.
He was an integral part of a title team in '11 [in his 17th season], and still a solid contributor on a decent Knicks team in his 19th and final season, when his athleticism was just shot. The guy simply knew how to ball, though.

From my perspective, I don't think it can be definitively said that someone like John Havlicek was any better. Nor can one say Hondo had better longevity. Halvicek had a more "storied" career [which to some degree may just mean he was luckier].
I certainly think Kidd deserves traction in the same region of the list as players like Havlicek and Pippen.




2nd vote: Elgin Baylor
Have been tossing around a lot of names [the circa-30 region of my ATL is VERY much a floating order.....I could see going a lot of different ways]. But I've decided I'm going with Baylor.
I think he's often dinged [around here] for being clearly a tier below his teammate Jerry West.......but West went in 19 places ago, so I don't think it's unreasonable at all to give Elgin some serious consideration here.

Ironically, I feel like his '62 campaign in particular exemplifies how good he was. This was the year he was mostly away from the team in service for the Army Reserves: so he didn't get to work-out or practice with the team, and only got to play a limited number of games [when allowed away]. Fun story as to how big a deal Baylor was to fans: apparently the box-office would get calls ahead of Laker games asking if Baylor was playing that night......and games he dressed for averaged ~3,000 more fans [iirc] than the ones he missed.

Despite the unusual circumstances, Baylor averaged an absurd 38.3/18.6/4.6 per game.
Yes, pace was crazy. But still, even in pace adjusted per 100 possessions this came to an estimated 33.6 pts (@ +1.34% rTS), 16.3 reb, 4.1 ast, while playing a ridiculous 44.4 mpg.
And it's hard to ascribe only small impact to this: the Lakers were 17-15 (which would be on pace for 43-44 wins in an 82-game season) without him, but 37-11 (on pace for just over 63 wins in an 82-game season) with him. Adding 20 wins to an already decent team is no small achievement (I believe the SRS difference was similar in proportion; like +4 or thereabouts iirc).

This is also the year Baylor averaged 40.6 ppg (@ +3.1% rTS), 17.9 rpg, and 3.7 apg in the NBA Finals against Russell and the Celtics, taking them to 7 games (and losing game 7 by just 3 pts). This was the series in which [in game 5] Baylor scored an efficient 61 pts, while also grabbing 22 rebound [no one else not named Bill Russell was in within even 10 rebounds of him] in a 5-pt Laker victory.

And overall he's just got a lot of years in which he was really filling that stat-sheet, respectable WOWYR for this stage of the project, too. Led the Lakers to an unlikely finals appearance in his rookie year with really no noteworthy supporting cast, a number of accolades, and steady high-praise from contemporaries.
It's robust enough of a resume I've decided to go with him here.


3rd vote: John Havlicek
He's more or less right there with my first two votes; it's really slivers between in this range, and honestly I flux a lot over time in this range of my list.
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Re: RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #33 

Post#11 » by trex_8063 » Sat Dec 19, 2020 9:11 pm

penbeast0 wrote:
Best remaining big is probably Gilmore, Dwight Howard would be the main competition unless I'm forgetting someone. Maybe Robert Parish or Kevin McHale? I've heard Lanier's name come up but eye test, he was a somewhat lazy, passive defender and the stats (outside of outlier season 1974) don't indicate anything different to me . . . either the individual ones or the team defensive Drtg.


Best [i.e. highest ranked] big left on the table for me is Gilmore (he's coming up very very soon in my ballots), followed by Pau Gasol, imo.

After that I think it'll be Dwight Howard, Robert Parish [again: me into meaningful longevity], Kevin McHale, and Dolph Schayes (if we're including PF's). And then a tiny gap to guys like Bob Lanier, Elvin Hayes, and Dikembe (and maybe Anthony Davis is inching into this range for me after this past season??).
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Re: RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #33 

Post#12 » by penbeast0 » Sat Dec 19, 2020 10:49 pm

Dang, forgot Gasol! Thanks.

And I have Jason Kidd as probably the best defensive PG of all time (when you include defensive rebounding) with Frazier second. It's his offense, particularly his playmaking, I think gets overrated. I never saw him as an ATG playmaker although I hear that a lot.
“Most people use statistics like a drunk man uses a lamppost; more for support than illumination,” Andrew Lang.
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Re: RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #33 

Post#13 » by trex_8063 » Sun Dec 20, 2020 1:45 am

Thru post #12:

Elgin Baylor - 2 (Hal14, penbeast0)
Kawhi Leonard - 1 (Dutchball97)
John Havlicek - 1 (DQuinn1575)
Jason Kidd - 1 (trex_8063)


Probably ~24 hours or just under left for this one.
btw---Good idea to maybe state your favorite between Havlicek and Baylor, if it’s not already clear from your votes.


Spoiler:
Ainosterhaspie wrote:.

Ambrose wrote:.

Baski wrote:.

bidofo wrote:.

Blackmill wrote:.

Cavsfansince84 wrote:.

Clyde Frazier wrote:.

Doctor MJ wrote:.

DQuinn1575 wrote:.

Dr Positivity wrote:.

drza wrote:.

Dutchball97 wrote:.

Eddy_JukeZ wrote:.

eminence wrote:.

Franco wrote:.

Gregoire wrote:.

Hal14 wrote:.

HeartBreakKid wrote:.

Hornet Mania wrote:.

iggymcfrack wrote:.

Jaivl wrote:.

Joao Saraiva wrote:.

Joey Wheeler wrote:.

Jordan Syndrome wrote:.

LA Bird wrote:.

lebron3-14-3 wrote:.

limbo wrote:.

Magic Is Magic wrote:.

Matzer wrote:.

Moonbeam wrote:.

Odinn21 wrote:.

Owly wrote:.

O_6 wrote:.

PaulieWal wrote:.

penbeast0 wrote:.

PistolPeteJR wrote:.

RSCD3_ wrote:.

[quote=”sansterre”].[/quote]
Senior wrote:.

SeniorWalker wrote:.

SHAQ32 wrote:.

Texas Chuck wrote:.

Tim Lehrbach wrote:.

TrueLAfan wrote:.

Whopper_Sr wrote:.

ZeppelinPage wrote:.

2klegend wrote:.

70sFan wrote:.

876Stephen wrote:.

90sAllDecade wrote:.
"Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience." -George Carlin

"The fact that a proposition is absurd has never hindered those who wish to believe it." -Edward Rutherfurd
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Re: RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #33 

Post#14 » by Cavsfansince84 » Sun Dec 20, 2020 4:03 am

1. John Havlicek
-11x all nba 1st or 2nd team(4 1st)
-7x all nba defense(5 1st) and played 6 years before those were created
-7x top 10 in mvp voting
-8x champ and 1 fmvp(strong case in 69 as well averaging 28.1/11.0/4.4 on 52% ts but losing it to West)
-led 3 title teams in playoff scoring, assists and win shares(68, 69 and 74) which is something few other players have done(only other player to do this 3x is MJ)
-great all around skills(led Celtics in scoring 7x, apg 7x, win shares 6x)
-great chemistry/leadership/hustle guy

2. Rick Barry
-11x all league(9x 1st team)
-6x top 5 in mvp voting
-led league in scoring in 67 with 35.6ppg with a ts add of +195
-overall very efficient volume scorer with career ts+ of 104(2% above league average) and 6 straight years with ts add over 120
-led aba/nba in playoff ppg 3x
-from 73-77 led the Warriors in ppg and apg while those teams ranked 11th, 2nd, 2nd, 2nd and 4th in ORtg showing how well he could orchestrate an offense
-epic 75 playoff run in which he won ring/fmvp

3. Dolph Schayes
-this pick came down to Dolph and Elgin for me and I went with Schayes mainly on a couple things: one, Schayes won a ring but also he sort of destroys Baylor in both ts add(1322 to 533) and win shares(142 to 104). Had Baylor came into the league a few years younger and been able to play more in his prime I'd likely have him quite a bit higher. As it is though I have to go by what he actually did.
-12x all nba(7x 1st)
-Good all around player, 9x top 5 in rebounding
-top 10 in scoring 11 times with career ts+ of 108 which is about 4% over league average
-known to be a solid defender from what I have learned about him
-31st in career win shares
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Re: RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #33 

Post#15 » by trex_8063 » Sun Dec 20, 2020 3:40 pm

Thru post #14:

Elgin Baylor - 2 (Hal14, penbeast0)
John Havlicek - 2 (Cavsfansince84, DQuinn1575)
Kawhi Leonard - 1 (Dutchball97)
Jason Kidd - 1 (trex_8063)


About 10 hours [or just under] left for this one. If your name isn't shown above, I've not seen a vote from you.
btw---Good idea to maybe state your favorite between Havlicek and Baylor, if it’s not already clear from your votes.


Spoiler:
Ainosterhaspie wrote:.

Ambrose wrote:.

Baski wrote:.

bidofo wrote:.

Blackmill wrote:.

Cavsfansince84 wrote:.

Clyde Frazier wrote:.

Doctor MJ wrote:.

DQuinn1575 wrote:.

Dr Positivity wrote:.

drza wrote:.

Dutchball97 wrote:.

Eddy_JukeZ wrote:.

eminence wrote:.

Franco wrote:.

Gregoire wrote:.

Hal14 wrote:.

HeartBreakKid wrote:.

Hornet Mania wrote:.

iggymcfrack wrote:.

Jaivl wrote:.

Joao Saraiva wrote:.

Joey Wheeler wrote:.

Jordan Syndrome wrote:.

LA Bird wrote:.

lebron3-14-3 wrote:.

limbo wrote:.

Magic Is Magic wrote:.

Matzer wrote:.

Moonbeam wrote:.

Odinn21 wrote:.

Owly wrote:.

O_6 wrote:.

PaulieWal wrote:.

penbeast0 wrote:.

PistolPeteJR wrote:.

RSCD3_ wrote:.

[quote=”sansterre”].[/quote]
Senior wrote:.

SeniorWalker wrote:.

SHAQ32 wrote:.

Texas Chuck wrote:.

Tim Lehrbach wrote:.

TrueLAfan wrote:.

Whopper_Sr wrote:.

ZeppelinPage wrote:.

2klegend wrote:.

70sFan wrote:.

876Stephen wrote:.

90sAllDecade wrote:.
"Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience." -George Carlin

"The fact that a proposition is absurd has never hindered those who wish to believe it." -Edward Rutherfurd
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Re: RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #33 

Post#16 » by Dr Positivity » Sun Dec 20, 2020 4:41 pm

1. Elgin Baylor - He was a superstar for several years which I value, the post surgery is ok
2. John Havlicek - Great longevity, playoff performer, elite defender
3. Clyde Drexler - One of the better offensive careers left
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Re: RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #33 

Post#17 » by trex_8063 » Sun Dec 20, 2020 4:45 pm

Dr Positivity wrote:1. Elgin Baylor - He was a superstar for several years which I value, the post surgery is ok
2. John Havlicek - Great longevity, playoff performer, elite defender
3. Clyde Drexler - One of the better offensive careers left


I'll count the vote, but fyi it is sort of skirting the line. In future threads please put forth a little bit more and/or contribute to the discussion in addition to a vote post like this.
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Re: RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #33 

Post#18 » by Doctor MJ » Sun Dec 20, 2020 9:27 pm

Vote:

1. Reggie Miller
2. John Havlicek
3. Rick Barry

Continuing to vote for Miller & Havlicek. Commonality that both were able to fit in and add value at various levels of primacy.

Debated Barry vs Gervin for the last spot. Definitely see the argument for Gervin. He's got the efficiency edge and I'm fine calling him the better scorer. How much to give credit for Barry being more well-rounded as a playmaker? Tough to say. In the end I do see Barry as the guy who was generally seen as the stronger player, I see some evidence in that direction (him leading a team to a title while being the only big minute guy is no small thing), and I also look at things like ElGee's WOWYR which rates Barry very highly and Gervin not so much.

I'll hold off on picking guys beyond those 4, and will chime in if I need to to break ties.
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Re: RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #33 

Post#19 » by 70sFan » Sun Dec 20, 2020 9:37 pm

For someone like Gervin, WOWY are almost meaningless to me. George didn't miss any significant number of games in his career and random 2-3 games per season don't tell us much about player's impact.
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Re: RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #33 

Post#20 » by Doctor MJ » Sun Dec 20, 2020 9:43 pm

70sFan wrote:For someone like Gervin, WOWY are almost meaningless to me. George didn't miss any significant number of games in his career and random 2-3 games per season don't tell us much about player's impact.


Good point.
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