1st vote: Jason KiddThe major critique(s) he sustains are the poor efficiency shooting and the lack of great offenses with him at the helm. otoh, I think he's arguably the greatest transition passer of all-time [I'll submit that one video below; also see post 20 of #35 thread regarding transition scoring of Kidd teams], and a solid creation passer in the half-court, too, who fairly consistently had some really good ORAPM's in his prime [frequently top 5-10 in the league, I think one even as high as 3rd].
Additionally he's a rare breed of PG who can actually kinda co-anchor elite defenses.
I'll point out that [in an era of already quite low league average ORtg/DRtg] he was a part of three consecutive elite defenses with rDRTG's of -5.0 [1st of 29], -5.5 [1st of 29], and -4.9 [4th of 29]. All three of these were achieved WITHOUT an elite rim-protector in the middle. For that matter, they followed that period up with a couple more very good ones (-3.0 and -3.8, respectively).
I don't want to give you the impression Kidd was definitively the anchor; they were very much "ensemble efforts".......but it's also hard to definitively peg any other ONE member of those Nets teams as MORE important to their defensive success than Kidd.
The '02 Nets displayed some pretty good 3pt defense---despite being one of the faster paced teams in the league, they allowed the 13th-fewest 3PA while also being 10th [of 29] in 3pt% allowed. And unlike, for example, recent Utah Jazz teams, they didn't achieve that by running guys off the line with confidence because of the rim protector they have behind them [because again: the best rim protectors were guys like Kenyon Martin and Todd MacCulloch]; this was simple stout defense by the perimeter core [of which Kidd played more minutes----handily---than anyone].
They managed this while also maintaining a pretty low opponent FTAr (10th of 29), which usually involves not allowing defensive breakdowns on the perimeter.
But their best defensive FF was opp TOV% (3rd in league)......and Kidd led the team in both steals and STL%.
They were also decent on the defensive glass, where Kidd was the team's 2nd-best defensive rebounder.
They other aspect they really excelled at [which I touched on a bit wrt 3pt defense] is opp eFG%, which again always felt like an ensemble effort with this team.
With the '03 team [their single-best defense], their 3pt defense was merely average; it was their 2pt defense that was outstanding [resulting in them being 4th in opp eFG%]. I think moving Jason Collins into a larger minute role helped [outstanding rotational defender, pnr defender], and they got 514 minutes from an aging Dikembe. But mostly an ensemble effort with few defensive weak spots in the rotation.
But again their BEST defensive FF was opp TOV% (and again Kidd leads in both steals and STL%).
And he's again one of their best defensive rebounders (they were 6th in DREB%).
The '04 squad shakes out similarly, with their best defensive FF being DREB% and opp TOV% (with Kidd again being one of their best defensive rebounders AND leading the team in steals and STL%).
His overall RAPM league rank during the heart of his prime:
'02: 5th
'03: 5th
'04: tied for 4th
'05: 6th
'06: tied for 17th
'07: tied for 17th
With mostly solid [often top 25ish] RAPM on either side of these years.......and ALWAYS while playing BIG minutes and missing very few games.
He was an integral part of a title team in '11 [in his 17th season], and still a solid contributor on a decent Knicks team in his 19th and final season, when his athleticism was just shot. The guy simply knew how to ball, though.
From my perspective, I don't think it can be definitively said that someone like John Havlicek was any better. Nor can one say Hondo had better longevity. Halvicek had a more "storied" career [which to some degree may just mean he was luckier].
I certainly think Kidd deserves traction in the same region of the list as players like Havlicek and Pippen.
And although he's already in, I'll re-post my brief comparison of Havlicek to Kidd from last thread.
I'll start by looking at them thru the lens of different "components" of the game of basketball, starting with scoring....
Havlicek scored at a rate of anywhere from 19.5 pts/100 possessions [in his rookie season; he otherwise was never lower than 21.4] to 26.4 pts/100 [averaging out around 23.5 or slightly under pts/100], on shooting efficiency that ranged anywhere from -3.8% rTS to +2.2 rTS (averaging out at about -0.7% rTS), with a career average of 36.6 mpg.
Kidd---in his first 16 seasons [to keep the same time-line as Havlicek's career]---averaged anywhere from 13.3 to 26.2 pts/100 (depending on the role he took, averaging out to 19.2 pts/100), on anywhere from -7.4% to +3.4% rTS, averaging out around -2.4% rTS, while averaging a nearly identical [marginally superior, if we're picking nits] 37.1 mpg in these years.
Their respective turnover economies look roughly comparable [based on limited info for Hondo, obviously]. So it's safe to say that Havlicek was the better scorer [relative to his professional peers], and significantly so [although still not a great one].
But otoh Kidd is the superior rebounder [and that's before entering into any consideration of "positional expectation"]: Kidd averaged 9.3 reb/100 in these years.......Havlicek's PEAK rebounding rate was during his rookie season averaging an estimated 9.15 reb/100 [despite there being more rebounds to get per possession at that time], and averaged somewhere around 7 reb/100 overall for his career.
I think Kidd is probably the better passer/playmaker,
even in consideration of positional expectation.And defensively, I'm not sure that Kidd isn't the bigger per possession impact defender [which again, is perhaps extra impressive] in his time.
And all of this while playing in a more competitive era, imo.
And then Kidd goes on to have THREE more value-added [at least tiny amounts] seasons after this period, including one year as the roughly 3rd/4th-best player on a title winning team.
Truthfully, it's ONLY out of consideration for Havlicek's more storied career, and I suppose a little for his playoff heroics and leadership intangibles that even have him in the same general vicinity as Kidd.
2nd vote: Artis GilmoreExtraordinarily efficient moderate volume scorer who rebounded very well [if not always boxing out], while providing some hit or miss defensive impact (HUGE some of his early years in the ABA, fwiw), over the course of an ultra-durable 17-year career. As someone who values meaningful longevity, it's hard to not have him as a viable candidate here.
3rd vote: Gary PaytonAnother guy I feel needs some traction at this stage. I'm again ahead of the pitch on this pick relative to all of you, so I may save for a future thread any big post about The Glove.
EDIT: Reggie and Drexler are right after for me.
"The fact that a proposition is absurd has never hindered those who wish to believe it." -Edward Rutherfurd
"Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities." - Voltaire
