Offense Only: Lebron James vs Magic Johnson

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Offense Only

Lebron James
47
59%
Magic Johnson
32
41%
 
Total votes: 79

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Re: Offense Only: Lebron James vs Magic Johnson 

Post#21 » by MyUniBroDavis » Mon Dec 28, 2020 3:55 am

Doctor MJ wrote:
euroleague wrote:
Doctor MJ wrote:
I said LeBron. As I was saying in another thread, I think both are in the rare category of being able to get better and better and better offensively as they age, and then Magic got HIV while LeBron got better still.

Basically LeBron from around 2016 onward has been the most unstoppable offensive force we've ever had.

For the record, I do think Magic had a better feel for the game at a younger age, and so up to a point I'd have given Magic the nod over LeBron.

Additionally, I think first 3-peat era Jordan was better than LeBron at the same age. Then Jordan got worse and LeBron got better.


Yet, in 2016, LBJ was very much stopped in many games by an older Iguodala. Kawhi has done excellent jobs on LBJ during every regular season meeting, and they haven't met much in the post-season.

I feel like Harden is arguably a better offensive player than LBJ if you value unstoppable scoring. In terms of running an offense, I think it's unquestionably Magic here.


2016 was when LeBron led the Cavs in a comeback to win the championship over the 73-9 Warriors. Yes, he very much struggled in that series, but he turned a corner, and really I haven't seen him struggle seriously since. Oh he'll have an off game, but when the series is on the line, he's money now in a way he wasn't when he was younger.

Re: Harden. I need to see him lead the kind of offenses I've seen are now possible (Nash, Curry, LeBron). I'm not saying he can't do it, but he hasn't done it, has struggled noticeably at times in the playoffs, and has worn out all of my sympathy when it comes to the whole "weak supporting cast" argument.


He struggled a bit at the start but i wouldnt say the 2016 series was a struggle, most people have it as the best series of his career lol

With harden i just feel its really his unwillingness to do things off ball, we saw this in the lakers series the most. His countjng numbers were great but the thing that doesnt appear on the stat sheet was the times he drove in trued to iso didnt create anything, kicked it out and they reset with 8 seconds left. It was really noticable that series, and while thats not normally gonna have me blame harden there r rumors he kiterally asked to not to anything off ball which is a bit different than misutilization
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Peregrine01 wrote:Honestly, I'm not sure it should be such a given that the 17 team was better than the 16 version at their peaks.


Lol if you think thats bad

ShotCreator wrote:MIKE CONLEY IS THE NBA MVP + 47 posts defending that take


Yes, he actually said that :lol:
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Re: Offense Only: Lebron James vs Magic Johnson 

Post#22 » by MyUniBroDavis » Mon Dec 28, 2020 4:01 am

euroleague wrote:
Doctor MJ wrote:
euroleague wrote:
Yet, in 2016, LBJ was very much stopped in many games by an older Iguodala. Kawhi has done excellent jobs on LBJ during every regular season meeting, and they haven't met much in the post-season.

I feel like Harden is arguably a better offensive player than LBJ if you value unstoppable scoring. In terms of running an offense, I think it's unquestionably Magic here.


2016 was when LeBron led the Cavs in a comeback to win the championship over the 73-9 Warriors. Yes, he very much struggled in that series, but he turned a corner, and really I haven't seen him struggle seriously since. Oh he'll have an off game, but when the series is on the line, he's money now in a way he wasn't when he was younger.

Re: Harden. I need to see him lead the kind of offenses I've seen are now possible (Nash, Curry, LeBron). I'm not saying he can't do it, but he hasn't done it, has struggled noticeably at times in the playoffs, and has worn out all of my sympathy when it comes to the whole "weak supporting cast" argument.


Bit of a long response here:

I saw LBJ struggle in 2018, against the Pacers - the Cavs only won that series because of the double on Oladipo, who had no help. The Raptors were also crushing the cavs, before they choked like crazy. LBJ did manage to beat the Celtics in 7 games though, although they were without Kyrie or Hayward....and LBU didn't play defense. Then he got swept by the Warriors, although he put up a valiant effort in 1 game... in game 3, the Cavs were within striking distance - but LBJ came up blank against KD. Curry went 3/16, Klay went 4/11, Kevin Love went 20/13/3 with 5 ORB on 66% TS.... but KD just annihalated Lebron.

In 2020, the Lakers dominated as most people expected - AD and LBJ are a forward combo that is basically impossible to defend for the teams they went up against. Both are enormous freaks of nature at their position... and they had very good role-players, with Rondo/Dwight stepping up majorly. Does anyone believe if AD had joined the Bucks in a trade for Khris Middleton and Brook Lopez, the Bucks wouldn't have won the ring with domination on both ends?

Bledsoe vs Rondo
Divencenzo vs Caruso
Giannis vs LBJ
AD vs AD
Wesley Matthews vs Dwight
George Hill vs Kuzma

If you traded Middleton for AD straight up, the Lakers would still have been more talented... if the Bucks added AD, would people crown Giannis the best player in the world after they crushed every other team in the playoffs? Or would that simply be expected?



Lebron averages 34.5-8-10, 65.5TS, including 3 40+ games shooting 58%, 64%, and 71%

He StRUgGlED Vs tHE PaCErS!

Nani!?

Raptors crushing the cavs en route to a 0-4 domination

Nani!?

Celtics - thats literally the only series he did play D in lmao

Nani!?

Broken hand in the finals and starts shooting with his left hand, means he choked. Didnt he have a 33 point triple double that game too, and hit a three to bring it to one with 2 minutes left and hit a layup aft that, warriors just hit their shots and cavs missed easy shots at the end (not bron doe).

All of this with teams not respecting the cavs shooting so no spacing, and the cavs missing open jump shots.

Nani!?


On the lakers and bucks

To try to say the bucks lost because of a talent issue than because of a coaching/tactical issue is a bit odd lol. Also no the lakers would not be more talented lol


Bledsoe vs Rondo

Inserts a picture of rondo getting blown by, by jerry west in his 80s

Divencenzo vs Caruso

Caruso better at his role but caruso isnt a more talented player

Giannis vs LBJ
AD vs AD

Huh

Wesley Matthews vs Dwight

Dwight was useful for one series so he could guard jokic and benched or bleh every other

George Hill vs Kuzma

This is 2019-2020 kuzma whose like a slightly below average nba player

Like lmao i liked ur take on looking at what happened in games but you cant make crap up lmfao


This is the equivilent of me saying "yo like magic did ok but did you know all of his assists were actually lies made by the obama administration" lol

Like if ur gonna lie at least dont say literally a bunch of things that specifically didnt happen XD like you could have switched the team names around and it might be more accurate lmfao

Also if anything it makes more sense to go

Bledsoe vs rondo

Even in their playoff modes at least one plays defense lol

Hill vs caruso

Hill better offensicely, caruso good at what he does but he wouldnt fit giannis well at all

Lopez vs dwight

Lol lopez not even close

Matthews vs KCP

Kcp, although matthews is a better defender, and prolly fits better

Divicenzo vs Kuzma

Kuzma 2019-2020 was garbagio lul

If you switch middleton for davis no the bucks supporting cast is far better lmao. What is even that statement
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Peregrine01 wrote:Honestly, I'm not sure it should be such a given that the 17 team was better than the 16 version at their peaks.


Lol if you think thats bad

ShotCreator wrote:MIKE CONLEY IS THE NBA MVP + 47 posts defending that take


Yes, he actually said that :lol:
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Re: Offense Only: Lebron James vs Magic Johnson 

Post#23 » by LukaTheGOAT » Mon Dec 28, 2020 5:14 am

I'll go Lebron.

I won't cite PIPM, RAPTOR, BPM, etc. because those stats suggest Lebron peaked higher, in large part because they fail to pick up on how Magic's style of play makes him so special offensively (similar to Nash), while those metrics can better pick up on just how good of a scorer Lebron is.

However, Magic is often cited for being among the GOATs offensively because of his offenses, but I think Lebron has a strong case even when looking at things from that lense.

Looking at PS rORTG since the 60s per Backpicks, Lebron's teams have 1 spot in the top 5 and 2 spots in the top 10. Magic's Lakers (86-87) have 1 entry in the top 20.

PS offensive ratings can be noisy because of small sample sizes but depending on the range you use, it still shows Lebron leading better offenses. For example, Lebron's Cavs-Heat years topped the Magic's Lakers in 8 year PS offense.

To me this is noteworthy, because when we are talking greatest offensive players of all-time, a 8 year stretch is good enough to capture someone's prime while not being a long enough span to veer into the territory of longevity (which Magic lacks). Lebron could be argued to have led better offenses throughout his career. The box-score (which misses a lot) is in favor of Lebron as well.

I suppose you could argue that Lebron had more help these years, but to be honest, I would argue the Lakers were loaded offensively too.
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Re: Offense Only: Lebron James vs Magic Johnson 

Post#24 » by LukaTheGOAT » Mon Dec 28, 2020 5:19 am

I'll go Lebron.

I won't cite PIPM, RAPTOR, BPM, etc. because those stats suggest Lebron peaked higher, in large part because they fail to pick up on how Magic's style of play makes him so special offensively (similar to Nash), while those metrics can better pick up on just how good of a scorer Lebron is.

However, Magic is often cited for being among the GOATs offensively because of his offenses, but I think Lebron has a strong case even when looking at things from that lense.

Looking at PS rORTG since the 60s per Backpicks, Lebron's teams have 1 spot in the top 5 and 2 spots in the top 10. Magic's Lakers (86-87) have 1 entry in the top 20.

PS offensive ratings can be noisy because of small sample sizes but depending on the range you use, it still shows Lebron leading better offenses. For example, Lebron's Cavs-Heat years topped the Magic's Lakers in 8 year PS offense.

To me this is noteworthy, because when we are talking greatest offensive players of all-time, a 8 year stretch is good enough to capture someone's prime while not being a long enough span to veer into the territory of longevity (which Magic lacks). Lebron could be argued to have led better offenses throughout his career. The box-score (which misses a lot) is in favor of Lebron as well.

I suppose you could argue that Lebron had more help these years, but to be honest, I would argue the Lakers were loaded offensively too. Finally, according to offensive load, Lebron on average had a higher load, which means he means his teams were closer to a heliocentric offense based around him. I think that the fact Lebron took on a higher offensive load, while leading better offenses is also something that should be considered, as it is not easy.
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Re: Offense Only: Lebron James vs Magic Johnson 

Post#25 » by uberhikari » Mon Dec 28, 2020 8:17 am

70sFan wrote:
uberhikari wrote:
70sFan wrote:I'm extremely high on Kareem because he was arguably the best scorer ever while being DPOY candidate, but I'd never take Kareem over Magic only on offense.

I don't think that individual scoring is the most important part of offense, creation and overall resiliance is more important and Magic is the best playmaker ever who couldn't be contained by any type of defense. You can't double him, you can't defend him straight, you can't stop him from doing his things. He's more natural floor general than LeBron and he doesn't need as much time to adjust as James sometimes does.


The idea that there's no way to defend Magic seems like hyperbole. I don't know how you could even prove this, especially given all the advances in modern defensive schemes.

How could you guard Magic then?


I'm not arguing with an unprovable counterfactual. It' like boxing with shadows. Furthermore, the burden of proof is on you since you made the claim.
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Re: Offense Only: Lebron James vs Magic Johnson 

Post#26 » by 70sFan » Mon Dec 28, 2020 10:15 am

uberhikari wrote:
70sFan wrote:
uberhikari wrote:
The idea that there's no way to defend Magic seems like hyperbole. I don't know how you could even prove this, especially given all the advances in modern defensive schemes.

How could you guard Magic then?


I'm not arguing with an unprovable counterfactual. It' like boxing with shadows. Furthermore, the burden of proof is on you since you made the claim.

Magic played over decade in professional basketball and he faced many different defensive styles and trends, by 1985 nothing could contain him. I don't think the burden of proof is on me at all, I don't say anything extraoridinary.
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Re: Offense Only: Lebron James vs Magic Johnson 

Post#27 » by KTM_2813 » Mon Dec 28, 2020 1:51 pm

James's career has been so long that it makes questions like this a bit challenging. The guy's been a top-five offensive player in the league for almost two decades. He's had years where his offense was exceptional in both the regular season and playoffs (e.g. 2014), years where his offense was ludicrous in the regular season but not as good in the playoffs (e.g. 2013), and years where he took it to another level in the playoffs (e.g. 2017). There's just so much to choose from.

I think that the spirit of the question is more in terms of peak or prime, in which case it's probably a coin flip.
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Re: Offense Only: Lebron James vs Magic Johnson 

Post#28 » by feyki » Mon Dec 28, 2020 8:07 pm

Lebron is better due to offensive boost by era dynamics. I did look at pipm some, last few days. An interesting point was that I have recognized there are 24 players +3 or above on offence between 75-79 and 87 players +3 or above on offence between 15-19. I could realize that it must raise due to teams and players amounts. But +3 defence increased from 26 to 34 compared to 24 to 87?.

You could compared 85-05 players to each other, 05-14 to each others, 75-84 to each others, 65-74 to each others, 56-64 to each others and 50-55. Circumstances is the key, here.
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Re: Offense Only: Lebron James vs Magic Johnson 

Post#29 » by Cavsfansince84 » Mon Dec 28, 2020 8:24 pm

The main difference I see between them is that I think LeBron is more likely to take over and score 35+ when his team might need him to(in the playoffs) than Magic is which isn't to say Magic couldn't do that but that its easier for LeBron to. Its somewhat hard to compare them because Magic played with so much offensive talent for most of his career while LeBron played with a lot from about 2011 on but I don't think it fit around him quite as well. Its hard to be overly critical of Magic's style thopugh when he is out there winning 5 rings in a period of 9 years.
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Re: Offense Only: Lebron James vs Magic Johnson 

Post#30 » by MyUniBroDavis » Mon Dec 28, 2020 8:49 pm

feyki wrote:Lebron is better due to offensive boost by era dynamics. I did look at pipm some, last few days. An interesting point was that I have recognized there are 24 players +3 or above on offence between 75-79 and 87 players +3 or above on offence between 15-19. I could realize that it must raise due to teams and players amounts. But +3 defence increased from 26 to 34 compared to 24 to 87?.

You could compared 85-05 players to each other, 05-14 to each others, 75-84 to each others, 65-74 to each others, 56-64 to each others and 50-55. Circumstances is the key, here.


This is act pretty valid, but id argue 98-05 should be seperated.

A bug part of circumstances is also what certain eras value in skillset vs others, post illegal D pick and roll play became more valuable relative to isolation play for a while
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Peregrine01 wrote:Honestly, I'm not sure it should be such a given that the 17 team was better than the 16 version at their peaks.


Lol if you think thats bad

ShotCreator wrote:MIKE CONLEY IS THE NBA MVP + 47 posts defending that take


Yes, he actually said that :lol:
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Re: Offense Only: Lebron James vs Magic Johnson 

Post#31 » by Jiminy Glick » Tue Dec 29, 2020 11:44 am

Magic, not close. Don't forget you can't put a hand on players now or it is a foul.
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Re: Offense Only: Lebron James vs Magic Johnson 

Post#32 » by No-more-rings » Tue Dec 29, 2020 2:08 pm

LukaTheGOAT wrote:I'll go Lebron.

I won't cite PIPM, RAPTOR, BPM, etc. because those stats suggest Lebron peaked higher, in large part because they fail to pick up on how Magic's style of play makes him so special offensively (similar to Nash), while those metrics can better pick up on just how good of a scorer Lebron is.

However, Magic is often cited for being among the GOATs offensively because of his offenses, but I think Lebron has a strong case even when looking at things from that lense.

Looking at PS rORTG since the 60s per Backpicks, Lebron's teams have 1 spot in the top 5 and 2 spots in the top 10. Magic's Lakers (86-87) have 1 entry in the top 20.

PS offensive ratings can be noisy because of small sample sizes but depending on the range you use, it still shows Lebron leading better offenses. For example, Lebron's Cavs-Heat years topped the Magic's Lakers in 8 year PS offense.


To me this is noteworthy, because when we are talking greatest offensive players of all-time, a 8 year stretch is good enough to capture someone's prime while not being a long enough span to veer into the territory of longevity (which Magic lacks). Lebron could be argued to have led better offenses throughout his career. The box-score (which misses a lot) is in favor of Lebron as well.

I suppose you could argue that Lebron had more help these years, but to be honest, I would argue the Lakers were loaded offensively too.

I don't think this means a whole lot without accounting for defensive competition, era differences etc. One major thing, teams didn't shoot nearly as many 3s in the 80s as today, so that can inflate ORTG compared to then.
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Re: Offense Only: Lebron James vs Magic Johnson 

Post#33 » by LukaTheGOAT » Wed Dec 30, 2020 4:52 am

No-more-rings wrote:
LukaTheGOAT wrote:I'll go Lebron.

I won't cite PIPM, RAPTOR, BPM, etc. because those stats suggest Lebron peaked higher, in large part because they fail to pick up on how Magic's style of play makes him so special offensively (similar to Nash), while those metrics can better pick up on just how good of a scorer Lebron is.

However, Magic is often cited for being among the GOATs offensively because of his offenses, but I think Lebron has a strong case even when looking at things from that lense.

Looking at PS rORTG since the 60s per Backpicks, Lebron's teams have 1 spot in the top 5 and 2 spots in the top 10. Magic's Lakers (86-87) have 1 entry in the top 20.

PS offensive ratings can be noisy because of small sample sizes but depending on the range you use, it still shows Lebron leading better offenses. For example, Lebron's Cavs-Heat years topped the Magic's Lakers in 8 year PS offense.


To me this is noteworthy, because when we are talking greatest offensive players of all-time, a 8 year stretch is good enough to capture someone's prime while not being a long enough span to veer into the territory of longevity (which Magic lacks). Lebron could be argued to have led better offenses throughout his career. The box-score (which misses a lot) is in favor of Lebron as well.

I suppose you could argue that Lebron had more help these years, but to be honest, I would argue the Lakers were loaded offensively too.

I don't think this means a whole lot without accounting for defensive competition, era differences etc. One major thing, teams didn't shoot nearly as many 3s in the 80s as today, so that can inflate ORTG compared to then.


I think it matters first best because the best 8 yr PS offenses are Shaq, Nash, LBJ, and MJ, which is elite company. But furthermore, if we are talking offensive dominance RELATIVE to era, I think it does matter that LBJ offenses are outperforming their opponents by more on offense. Yes, maybe the top offenses will have better relative offensive ratings, but nonetheless the 3 point shot has allowed for outliers, and for 3 point players to potentially be more impactful I might argue.

I also think this is impressive because James did this across multiple teams with different strengths and weaknesses, highlighting his versatility on offense.
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Re: Offense Only: Lebron James vs Magic Johnson 

Post#34 » by freethedevil » Wed Dec 30, 2020 2:00 pm

No-more-rings wrote:
Cavsfansince84 wrote:I think this sort of comparison comes down to the age you compare them at. I think Magic was probably better up until about the age of 30 and then LeBron became slightly better due to both his athleticism and bbiq continuing to grow. I don't think Magic could have done the 2018 carry job for instance or engineered the 3-1 comeback(which factors in defense to some degree) but I think my point is understood.

Lebron’s athleticism grew past age 30?

Lebron in 2016 and 2020 are pretty clearly more atheltic than lebron in 14 or 15 yeah...
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Re: Offense Only: Lebron James vs Magic Johnson 

Post#35 » by fanofthegreats » Wed Dec 30, 2020 3:32 pm

Jiminy Glick wrote:Magic, not close. Don't forget you can't put a hand on players now or it is a foul.


“Not close” lol
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Re: Offense Only: Lebron James vs Magic Johnson 

Post#36 » by 70sFan » Wed Dec 30, 2020 5:06 pm

fanofthegreats wrote:
Jiminy Glick wrote:Magic, not close. Don't forget you can't put a hand on players now or it is a foul.


“Not close” lol

Yeah, I'm on Magic side in this debate but it definitely is close. James has very strong argument for GOAT offensive player, I prefer what Magic brings on that end but it doesn't change this fact.
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Re: Offense Only: Lebron James vs Magic Johnson 

Post#37 » by G35 » Wed Dec 30, 2020 5:15 pm

If I want an offense that has a varied attack and makes the best use of the talent available it is Magic and it is not close.

If I want to base my offense around one player and have that player carry the team then it would be Lebron and it is not close.......
I'm so tired of the typical......
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Re: Offense Only: Lebron James vs Magic Johnson 

Post#38 » by RCM88x » Wed Dec 30, 2020 6:36 pm

Jiminy Glick wrote:Magic, not close. Don't forget you can't put a hand on players now or it is a foul.


Magic has a higher career FTr than LeBron. 0.489 to 0.407

That is a massive different.

If we just look at LeBron post 2014 his rate falls to 0.359
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Re: Offense Only: Lebron James vs Magic Johnson 

Post#39 » by 70sFan » Wed Dec 30, 2020 6:42 pm

RCM88x wrote:
Jiminy Glick wrote:Magic, not close. Don't forget you can't put a hand on players now or it is a foul.


Magic has a higher career FTr than LeBron. 0.489 to 0.407

That is a massive different.

If we just look at LeBron post 2014 his rate falls to 0.359

Magic was lower volume scorer who played in the post much more often. I don't think it's caused by era differences, Johnson simply had "better" style to draw more fouls
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Re: Offense Only: Lebron James vs Magic Johnson 

Post#40 » by KTM_2813 » Wed Dec 30, 2020 7:10 pm

G35 wrote:If I want an offense that has a varied attack and makes the best use of the talent available it is Magic and it is not close.

If I want to base my offense around one player and have that player carry the team then it would be Lebron and it is not close.......


Eh... Considering that LeBron has captained two top-ten playoff offenses of all-time, has excelled in a variety of offensive styles (the 2013 Heat played very differently from the 2017 Cavs who played very differently from the 2020 Lakers), and played a huge role in both Davis and Kyrie having the most valuable years of their careers, I feel as though it's kind of hard to argue that LeBron does not make the best use of talent. Does he force players into very specific roles? Sure. Do his teams generally achieve their full potential on offense? Seems like it.

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