Offense Only: Lebron James vs Magic Johnson

[feyki]

Yes, within the era, only Nash and Oscar could compete against Magic.

[Statlanta]

I’d take Magic because LeBron’s inconsistent in doing the Uber dominant dual scoring and passing threat like he showed at the end of the 2016 playoffs.

[LukaTheGOAT]

This comparison isn't remotely close. I thought it was a troll thread when I opened it. The fact that people actually try to make it legitimate, and especially that Lebron be winning in the poll, just shows how bad the intellectual dishonesty is here, and the level of Lebron PR team manipulation.

Magic career team ORTG:

80 1st
81 7th
82 2nd
83 1st
84 5th
85 1st
86 1st
87 1st
88 2nd
89 1st
90 1st
91 5th
-----
Lebron career team ORTG
06 9th
07 18th
08 20th
09 4th
10 6th
11 3rd
12 8th
13 2nd
14 5th
15 3rd
16 3rd
17 3rd
18 5th
19 24th (LOL)
20 11th
21 17th (so far, 32 games in of course)

These two aren't even in the same galaxy of offensive impact. You can claim the 1st stint Cavs teams up to 2008 were more defensively focused and Lebron had a larger offensive load, but that's true of any team after 2009 (besides 2019).

Magic leads the #1 offense 7 years out of 11, with two more as the 2nd best. He's done it on widely different rosters where he had to adapt to already having a very capable point guard that needed the ball, and rosters were nobody else could create anything. Lebron has had more chances yet never led the #1 offense, and has only had the 2nd best offense once. If Lebron is supposedly the offensive GOAT (which Magic probably should be), how can he not lead a number 1 offense with the 2nd best player in the league and another 15-20th player in 2011. Or with a 2nd&3rd team all nba in their primes who got their impact from only offensive value, plus (old) Kyle Korver and Tristan Thompson. How does Lebron + AD + very solid role players get the 11th best offense??? I thought he got better with age, not just playing with wide-open paints every play? Had Magic gotten that kind of offensive only help (in contrast to a balanced lineup), he blows out historical records.

Magic couldn't be stifled by Jordan and Pippen even when his best players were injured. Lebron has been seriously stifled offensively by a large variety of players and variety of defenses in playoff series. These reached horrifying levels in 2007, 2008, 2010, 2011 and 2013, with poor to mediocre performances in a several key games in 2014, 2015, 2016, and 2018.

The 90 Lakers had Worthy, Scott, Green in their primes, then an ancient Thompson, Cooper, a disappointing Woolridge who kept getting traded around, and rookie Divac. That was the supporting cast to the #1 offense (+5.9 oRTG). One third team all-nba guy (playing for Magic), plus two solid role players.

The Lebron PR team can't answer such a gross disparity honestly, so be prepared for a bunch of bull hypotheticals and excuses that get only applied to Lebron.

I suppose you missed all the data that was shared with Lebron having better PS offenses?

[falcolombardi]

This comparison isn't remotely close. I thought it was a troll thread when I opened it. The fact that people actually try to make it legitimate, and especially that Lebron be winning in the poll, just shows how bad the intellectual dishonesty is here, and the level of Lebron PR team manipulation.

Magic career team ORTG:

80 1st
81 7th
82 2nd
83 1st
84 5th
85 1st
86 1st
87 1st
88 2nd
89 1st
90 1st
91 5th
-----
Lebron career team ORTG
06 9th
07 18th
08 20th
09 4th
10 6th
11 3rd
12 8th
13 2nd
14 5th
15 3rd
16 3rd
17 3rd
18 5th
19 24th (LOL)
20 11th
21 17th (so far, 32 games in of course)

These two aren't even in the same galaxy of offensive impact. You can claim the 1st stint Cavs teams up to 2008 were more defensively focused and Lebron had a larger offensive load, but that's true of any team after 2009 (besides 2019).

Magic leads the #1 offense 7 years out of 11, with two more as the 2nd best. He's done it on widely different rosters where he had to adapt to already having a very capable point guard that needed the ball, and rosters were nobody else could create anything. Lebron has had more chances yet never led the #1 offense, and has only had the 2nd best offense once. If Lebron is supposedly the offensive GOAT (which Magic probably should be), how can he not lead a number 1 offense with the 2nd best player in the league and another 15-20th player in 2011. Or with a 2nd&3rd team all nba in their primes who got their impact from only offensive value, plus (old) Kyle Korver and Tristan Thompson. How does Lebron + AD + very solid role players get the 11th best offense??? I thought he got better with age, not just playing with wide-open paints every play? Had Magic gotten that kind of offensive only help (in contrast to a balanced lineup), he blows out historical records.

Magic couldn't be stifled by Jordan and Pippen even when his best players were injured. Lebron has been seriously stifled offensively by a large variety of players and variety of defenses in playoff series. These reached horrifying levels in 2007, 2008, 2010, 2011 and 2013, with poor to mediocre performances in a several key games in 2014, 2015, 2016, and 2018.

The 90 Lakers had Worthy, Scott, Green in their primes, then an ancient Thompson, Cooper, a disappointing Woolridge who kept getting traded around, and rookie Divac. That was the supporting cast to the #1 offense (+5.9 oRTG). One third team all-nba guy (playing for Magic), plus two solid role players.

The Lebron PR team can't answer such a gross disparity honestly, so be prepared for a bunch of bull hypotheticals and excuses that get only applied to Lebron.

I suppose you missed all the data that was shared with Lebron having better PS offenses?

i actually think the argument is weak in many levels

1-it is easier to never have a bad offense when

a) you dont lead a lottery team out of highschool and instead are a college player joining a goat level player and a excelent offense

b) you play barely over half the seasons, we dont know what lakers into the 90's would have looked like with magic. specially if injuries/decline happened or if magic joined a bottom record team at 19

2-it says the bulls didnt stiffle magic, which they definetely did if we look at magic stats

3-it uses league rank as a métric which can over or understate a team in an across seasons comparisions

the -2.5 1988 bulls defense and the -5.5 2009 cavs defense were both rsnked 3rd for example

4- it pretends only lebron ever had bad games and exxagerated some of the bad years

example: the 2010 series vs boston lebron fanously "choked" has almost identical numbers to jordan finals performance in 1996 (which was good enough to win the fmvp) even down to the part of being great the first 3 ganes then struggling mightly the next 3

5- doesnt mention that 2020 was a top 5 offense until the league stopped, then they struggled so hard at the pre bubble games they dropped below top 10

the biggest takeaway there is that magic lakers were better regular season offenses than lebron team which ks actually a relevant point, but not the unique one

[Bidofo]

I suppose you missed all the data that was shared with Lebron having better PS offenses?

Not to mention that LeBron's defensive competition in the playoffs kind of blows Magic's out of the water.
EDIT: this is within their conference only

Lakers (1980 - 1991) played
top 2 defenses: 3
top 1/6: 5
top 1/3: 10
bottom 1/3: 8
bottom 1/6: 4
out of 30 series.
33% against top 1/3 defenses
26.7% against bottom 1/3 defenses

LeBron-led teams (2007 - 2018) played
top 2: 9 (!)
top 1/6 (5): 14
top 1/3 (10): 18
bottom 1/3 (10): 3
bottom 1/6 (5): 1
out of 34 series.
52.9% against top 1/3 defenses
8.8% against bottom 1/3 defenses

1/3 being used for Magic since the league varied from 23 to 27 teams during his era. Could be minor errors here and there and top 2/5/10 are a little arbitrary, but the point stands. Even by rDRTG of opponents, I'm pretty sure LeBron is up there with the likes of Kobe and Shaq in having the toughest defensive competition in the playoffs.

Something that I don't see mentioned that often and should be investigated further is how rORTG can be a bit misleading. A 110 ORTG vs a 100 DRTG is more impressive than a 115 ORTG vs a 105 DRTG imo, even though both would be valued at +10. Using %s would solve this. Though I suppose getting higher and higher ORTGs gets increasingly difficult as well (would 125 ORTG vs 110 DRTG be better than 115 ORTG vs 100 DRTG?) Then factor in the longer tails that 3pt shooting variance introduces...idk, can be quite complicated...

[RoyceDa59]

LeBron was a much more prolific scorer, shooter and closer.

Magic is all time goat passer.

This one is close. Personally I’d rather build my offense around LeBron.

[SeattleJazzFan]

lebron and it isn't really close.

[falcolombardi]

lebron and it isn't really close.

it definitely is close either way

[feyki]

5 year stretches:

12/16 Lebron, 3 all-nba and 5 all-star years by his teammates in that stretch - +4,5 TmORtg,
86/90 Magic, 2 all-nba and 7 all-star teammate years(excluded Kareem's honor selections as 88 and 89) in that span - +6,1 TmORtg
. Not in the same tier players, offensively.

[Colbinii]

5 year stretches:

12/16 Lebron, 3 all-nba and 5 all-star years by his teammates in that stretch - +4,5 TmORtg,
86/90 Magic, 2 all-nba and 7 all-star teammate years(excluded Kareem's honor selections as 88 and 89) in that span - +6,1 TmORtg
. Not in the same tier players, offensively.

Games played by teammates at all-star or All-NBA level

LeBron (2012-2016): 510/624 games [81.73%]

Magic (1986-1990) : 550/574 games [95.8%]

Your metrics are always hilarious.

[feyki]

5 year stretches:

12/16 Lebron, 3 all-nba and 5 all-star years by his teammates in that stretch - +4,5 TmORtg,
86/90 Magic, 2 all-nba and 7 all-star teammate years(excluded Kareem's honor selections as 88 and 89) in that span - +6,1 TmORtg
. Not in the same tier players, offensively.

Games played by teammates at all-star or All-NBA level

LeBron (2012-2016): 510/624 games [81.73%]

Magic (1986-1990) : 550/574 games [95.8%]

Your metrics are always hilarious.

Well, Wade missed 60 games in three years, Worthy and Kareem and Irving and Bosh both duo missed 25 games.

12/16 Lebron with Wade - +5,2 TmORtg,
86/90 Magic - +6,1 TmORtg
. Yep, feel confident on my estimates.

[70sFan]

lebron and it isn't really close.

Can't see it at all. Magic has a case over anyone.

[PistolPeteJR]

Magic, not close. Don't forget you can't put a hand on players now or it is a foul.

Magic has a higher career FTr than LeBron. 0.489 to 0.407

That is a massive different.

If we just look at LeBron post 2014 his rate falls to 0.359

Magic was lower volume scorer who played in the post much more often. I don't think it's caused by era differences, Johnson simply had "better" style to draw more fouls

Knowing what we know about James' playing style and his contemporaries' FTrs, I really don't think it's as simple as comparing his and Magic's playstyles. James definitely follows in Shaq's footsteps as it pertains to the lack of a whistle.

[PistolPeteJR]

I mean, that's what a lot of teams tried to do against Magic in the early 1990s and I wouldn't say that it ever worked.

I'd argue Scottie and the Bulls successfully did it.

Scottie rarely defended Magic in 1991 finals and Johnson had no help with injured Worthy and Scott. Magic still created more opportunities than Jordan in these finals and scored effectively.

If that's what you call stopping player, then James was stopped plenty of times in his career.

How do you think Magic would have fared going up against a team like the Warriors with guys like Iggy, Green, KD, and to a lesser extent, Klay, Livingston all doing their thing?

[PistolPeteJR]

This comparison isn't remotely close. I thought it was a troll thread when I opened it. The fact that people actually try to make it legitimate, and especially that Lebron be winning in the poll, just shows how bad the intellectual dishonesty is here, and the level of Lebron PR team manipulation.

Magic career team ORTG:

80 1st
81 7th
82 2nd
83 1st
84 5th
85 1st
86 1st
87 1st
88 2nd
89 1st
90 1st
91 5th
-----
Lebron career team ORTG
06 9th
07 18th
08 20th
09 4th
10 6th
11 3rd
12 8th
13 2nd
14 5th
15 3rd
16 3rd
17 3rd
18 5th
19 24th (LOL)
20 11th
21 17th (so far, 32 games in of course)

These two aren't even in the same galaxy of offensive impact. You can claim the 1st stint Cavs teams up to 2008 were more defensively focused and Lebron had a larger offensive load, but that's true of any team after 2009 (besides 2019).

Magic leads the #1 offense 7 years out of 11, with two more as the 2nd best. He's done it on widely different rosters where he had to adapt to already having a very capable point guard that needed the ball, and rosters were nobody else could create anything. Lebron has had more chances yet never led the #1 offense, and has only had the 2nd best offense once. If Lebron is supposedly the offensive GOAT (which Magic probably should be), how can he not lead a number 1 offense with the 2nd best player in the league and another 15-20th player in 2011. Or with a 2nd&3rd team all nba in their primes who got their impact from only offensive value, plus (old) Kyle Korver and Tristan Thompson. How does Lebron + AD + very solid role players get the 11th best offense??? I thought he got better with age, not just playing with wide-open paints every play? Had Magic gotten that kind of offensive only help (in contrast to a balanced lineup), he blows out historical records.

Magic couldn't be stifled by Jordan and Pippen even when his best players were injured. Lebron has been seriously stifled offensively by a large variety of players and variety of defenses in playoff series. These reached horrifying levels in 2007, 2008, 2010, 2011 and 2013, with poor to mediocre performances in a several key games in 2014, 2015, 2016, and 2018.

The 90 Lakers had Worthy, Scott, Green in their primes, then an ancient Thompson, Cooper, a disappointing Woolridge who kept getting traded around, and rookie Divac. That was the supporting cast to the #1 offense (+5.9 oRTG). One third team all-nba guy (playing for Magic), plus two solid role players.

The Lebron PR team can't answer such a gross disparity honestly, so be prepared for a bunch of bull hypotheticals and excuses that get only applied to Lebron.

Ever hear of a guy named Kareem Abdul-Jabbar?

[70sFan]

I'd argue Scottie and the Bulls successfully did it.

Scottie rarely defended Magic in 1991 finals and Johnson had no help with injured Worthy and Scott. Magic still created more opportunities than Jordan in these finals and scored effectively.

If that's what you call stopping player, then James was stopped plenty of times in his career.

How do you think Magic would have fared going up against a team like the Warriors with guys like Iggy, Green, KD, and to a lesser extent, Klay, Livingston all doing their thing?

He'd fare quite well I think. There is no individual defender who could stop things Magic did on offense and I don't think Warriors defense fared amazingly against top tier playmakers.

[falcolombardi]

Scottie rarely defended Magic in 1991 finals and Johnson had no help with injured Worthy and Scott. Magic still created more opportunities than Jordan in these finals and scored effectively.

If that's what you call stopping player, then James was stopped plenty of times in his career.

How do you think Magic would have fared going up against a team like the Warriors with guys like Iggy, Green, KD, and to a lesser extent, Klay, Livingston all doing their thing?

He'd fare quite well I think. There is no individual defender who could stop things Magic did on offense and I don't think Warriors defense fared amazingly against top tier playmakers.

pippen? not lockdown but the 91 bulls definetely slowed down magic (granted he was lackjing help then)

[70sFan]

How do you think Magic would have fared going up against a team like the Warriors with guys like Iggy, Green, KD, and to a lesser extent, Klay, Livingston all doing their thing?

He'd fare quite well I think. There is no individual defender who could stop things Magic did on offense and I don't think Warriors defense fared amazingly against top tier playmakers.

pippen? not lockdown but the 91 bulls definetely slowed down magic (granted he was lackjing help then)

Pippen didn't defend Johnson for majority of the series and Lakers offense struggled because they were injured and had to play some horrible lineups. I don't think Magic struggled any more than James in 2015 finals and Lakers offense was actually considerably better than Cavs.

[feyki]

This comparison isn't remotely close. I thought it was a troll thread when I opened it. The fact that people actually try to make it legitimate, and especially that Lebron be winning in the poll, just shows how bad the intellectual dishonesty is here, and the level of Lebron PR team manipulation.

Magic career team ORTG:

80 1st
81 7th
82 2nd
83 1st
84 5th
85 1st
86 1st
87 1st
88 2nd
89 1st
90 1st
91 5th
-----
Lebron career team ORTG
06 9th
07 18th
08 20th
09 4th
10 6th
11 3rd
12 8th
13 2nd
14 5th
15 3rd
16 3rd
17 3rd
18 5th
19 24th (LOL)
20 11th
21 17th (so far, 32 games in of course)

These two aren't even in the same galaxy of offensive impact. You can claim the 1st stint Cavs teams up to 2008 were more defensively focused and Lebron had a larger offensive load, but that's true of any team after 2009 (besides 2019).

Magic leads the #1 offense 7 years out of 11, with two more as the 2nd best. He's done it on widely different rosters where he had to adapt to already having a very capable point guard that needed the ball, and rosters were nobody else could create anything. Lebron has had more chances yet never led the #1 offense, and has only had the 2nd best offense once. If Lebron is supposedly the offensive GOAT (which Magic probably should be), how can he not lead a number 1 offense with the 2nd best player in the league and another 15-20th player in 2011. Or with a 2nd&3rd team all nba in their primes who got their impact from only offensive value, plus (old) Kyle Korver and Tristan Thompson. How does Lebron + AD + very solid role players get the 11th best offense??? I thought he got better with age, not just playing with wide-open paints every play? Had Magic gotten that kind of offensive only help (in contrast to a balanced lineup), he blows out historical records.

Magic couldn't be stifled by Jordan and Pippen even when his best players were injured. Lebron has been seriously stifled offensively by a large variety of players and variety of defenses in playoff series. These reached horrifying levels in 2007, 2008, 2010, 2011 and 2013, with poor to mediocre performances in a several key games in 2014, 2015, 2016, and 2018.

The 90 Lakers had Worthy, Scott, Green in their primes, then an ancient Thompson, Cooper, a disappointing Woolridge who kept getting traded around, and rookie Divac. That was the supporting cast to the #1 offense (+5.9 oRTG). One third team all-nba guy (playing for Magic), plus two solid role players.

The Lebron PR team can't answer such a gross disparity honestly, so be prepared for a bunch of bull hypotheticals and excuses that get only applied to Lebron.

I suppose you missed all the data that was shared with Lebron having better PS offenses?

Context matters when headed into the playoffs. It's not so necessary that since Lebron and Magic had elite teams, we have to leave out easy series.

Against 5+ SRS Teams:
12/16 Lebron in 5 Series - +4,9 TmORtg,
86/90 Magic in 4 Series - +7,6 TmORtg
. Already, you can't compare 22/12 with +20 rORtg player with 28/7 with +12/13 rORtg one. Different tiers.

[falcolombardi]

This comparison isn't remotely close. I thought it was a troll thread when I opened it. The fact that people actually try to make it legitimate, and especially that Lebron be winning in the poll, just shows how bad the intellectual dishonesty is here, and the level of Lebron PR team manipulation.

Magic career team ORTG:

80 1st
81 7th
82 2nd
83 1st
84 5th
85 1st
86 1st
87 1st
88 2nd
89 1st
90 1st
91 5th
-----
Lebron career team ORTG
06 9th
07 18th
08 20th
09 4th
10 6th
11 3rd
12 8th
13 2nd
14 5th
15 3rd
16 3rd
17 3rd
18 5th
19 24th (LOL)
20 11th
21 17th (so far, 32 games in of course)

These two aren't even in the same galaxy of offensive impact. You can claim the 1st stint Cavs teams up to 2008 were more defensively focused and Lebron had a larger offensive load, but that's true of any team after 2009 (besides 2019).

Magic leads the #1 offense 7 years out of 11, with two more as the 2nd best. He's done it on widely different rosters where he had to adapt to already having a very capable point guard that needed the ball, and rosters were nobody else could create anything. Lebron has had more chances yet never led the #1 offense, and has only had the 2nd best offense once. If Lebron is supposedly the offensive GOAT (which Magic probably should be), how can he not lead a number 1 offense with the 2nd best player in the league and another 15-20th player in 2011. Or with a 2nd&3rd team all nba in their primes who got their impact from only offensive value, plus (old) Kyle Korver and Tristan Thompson. How does Lebron + AD + very solid role players get the 11th best offense??? I thought he got better with age, not just playing with wide-open paints every play? Had Magic gotten that kind of offensive only help (in contrast to a balanced lineup), he blows out historical records.

Magic couldn't be stifled by Jordan and Pippen even when his best players were injured. Lebron has been seriously stifled offensively by a large variety of players and variety of defenses in playoff series. These reached horrifying levels in 2007, 2008, 2010, 2011 and 2013, with poor to mediocre performances in a several key games in 2014, 2015, 2016, and 2018.

The 90 Lakers had Worthy, Scott, Green in their primes, then an ancient Thompson, Cooper, a disappointing Woolridge who kept getting traded around, and rookie Divac. That was the supporting cast to the #1 offense (+5.9 oRTG). One third team all-nba guy (playing for Magic), plus two solid role players.

The Lebron PR team can't answer such a gross disparity honestly, so be prepared for a bunch of bull hypotheticals and excuses that get only applied to Lebron.

I suppose you missed all the data that was shared with Lebron having better PS offenses?

Context matters when headed into the playoffs. It's not so necessary that since Lebron and Magic had elite teams, we have to leave out easy series.

Against 5+ SRS Teams:
12/16 Lebron in 5 Series - +4,9 TmORtg,
86/90 Magic in 4 Series - +7,6 TmORtg
. Already, you can't compare 22/12 with +20 rORtg player with 28/7 with +12/13 rORtg one. Different tiers.

why +5 srs teams and not +5 Drtg teams if what we are evaluating is offense ?

iirc magic faced fairly weak defenses in the 80's west and lebron faced really tough defenses in the east even if overall neither conference was strong on average