James Harden 20-21 Thread

[Krodis]

Last season teams had come to the conclusion that the best way to defend Harden was to just double him.

That’s no longer really possible for obvious reasons, and I don’t know how teams adjust.


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[CKRT]

James Harden since joining the Nets:
24.9/11.4/8.3 on only 15.8 FGA 50/41/87 - 66 TS%
128 ORTG, 7.2 BPM, 25.9% USG (lowest since 2011-2012 with OKC)

Kind of wild that people really believe that James Harden isn't portable or would mesh poorly with other teams. One of the greatest offensive hubs ever IMO.

[MoreyWins]

Only players to average 20pts, 10asts, 5 rebs on 60 TS% are Magic Johnson (87,89,90) and James Harden (17,21). Magic won the League MVP in all three of those seasons.

[Bayaz]

OKC goofed when they broke he & Durant up. That team would've been a dynasty.

[GYK]

Long as the coaching staff respect Paint Protection and perimeter length(four guard lineups vs stars is ridiculous). They will or be fired. I don’t see how the convince ownership to retain them if they walk in the PS without a top 10 defense post March 25. There’s no way to beat them other than injury.
The scariest part of this Spencer contract and the MLE(which every contender uses) aren’t in play. Imagining they will bring in center and wing they might get more stops and transition opportunities. But for one of the most half court dependent offenses I’ve ever seen they are ridiculously efficient. (even more insane because they are a high pace team, they score a lot they give up a lot. It’s a high possession affair in their games).

Another league changing aspect he brings to league is the end of the one ball philosophy. 3pt shooting truly is the ultimate equalizer even to one ball beliefs. It allows stars to play off one another, something other stars didn’t have. But also that HUB players like Luka or Trae don’t necessarily need to be the sole perimeter stars on their teams. You can add other talents with them and not negatively effect your star.

Harden has be fantastic. He’s amazing. I want to call him effortless but it’s more of an IQ based skill. His size up is simple but forces the defender to make a decision. Once they decide for him every move after is just a counter to what’s available. Even his vision I wouldn’t say is elite like other tier 1 points but his mapping comes second to none. If the defense is here the opening is there. He simplified basketball. 13 Lebron is none for cutting all the fat from his game and Harden not so much. It’s a player gorging on the healthiest(most efficient) aspects of his game.

[Bayaz]

Long as the coaching staff respect Paint Protection and perimeter length(four guard lineups vs stars is ridiculous). They will or be fired. I don’t see how the convince ownership to retain them if they walk in the PS without a top 10 defense post March 25. There’s no way to beat them other than injury.
The scariest part of this Spencer contract and the MLE(which every contender uses) aren’t in play. Imagining they will bring in center and wing they might get more stops and transition opportunities. But for one of the most half court dependent offenses I’ve ever seen they are ridiculously efficient. (even more insane because they are a high pace team, they score a lot they give up a lot. It’s a high possession affair in their games).

Another league changing aspect he brings to league is the end of the one ball philosophy. 3pt shooting truly is the ultimate equalizer even to one ball beliefs. It allows stars to play off one another, something other stars didn’t have. But also that HUB players like Luka or Trae don’t necessarily need to be the sole perimeter stars on their teams. You can add other talents with them and not negatively effect your star.

Harden has be fantastic. He’s amazing. I want to call him effortless but it’s more of an IQ based skill. His size up is simple but forces the defender to make a decision. Once they decide for him every move after is just a counter to what’s available. Even his vision I wouldn’t say is elite like other tier 1 points but his mapping comes second to none. If the defense is here the opening is there. He simplified basketball. 13 Lebron is none for cutting all the fat from his game and Harden not so much. It’s a player gorging on the healthiest(most efficient) aspects of his game.

They'll probably get Drummond and/or Mcgee.

[GYK]

They'll probably get Drummond and/or Mcgee.

True. But it doesn’t help if the principles are wrong.
Switch everything has been in the league for 4 straight seasons. It’s been a top 10 defense once and had better personnel for it. But all in all it’s been 6th, 14th, 17th and now 24th. The only team to implement the switch everything scheme as their main identity is MDA teams. But the only coach to have them top 10 is Rockets Assistant Jeff Bzdelik in 18. And the reason it was implemented was to stop the Durant Warriors who don’t exist anymore.

The scheme doesn’t work against the majority of teams and certainly not for the duration we are using it.

I get if this is being treated like practice for the possible eventuality of having to use it but going for a traditional scheme that suits every big ever is absolutely 100% the way to go. Just drop coverage. But we are terrible not because of personnel but coaches choice.
I mean at worst it’s only this year because no ownership with this roster keeps the losing coach with bottom offense and no coach other than MDA switches the paint protector willingly. And that simple change will have us as the dynasty you expect of a team with two top 10 all time candidates.


Anyway this thread is about Harden...few things
His size up is the best ever. No one is close. Right to left between the legs, followed by left to right crossover. Simple and the most dominant move in basketball. Everything about his game is based on reacting to the defense when using it at different speeds.

His pocket passing is fantastic. I never rated such a specific pass but I can’t honestly say who has a better pocket pass.

His IQ on the PnR is also worthy of note. In particular coming off a screen. If the paint is empty he comes with speed, if crowded he slowly trouts with the ball shielded from the defense. It’s simply and basic but all the scoring guards come off with pressure, they also snake dribble more than he does(willing to go fully baseline before coming back out) but he does know how to trap the defender behind him perfectly.

His step back is legendary as well as his ability to draw fouls(tho I never hear about how strong his hands are. His grip on the ball is not normal for a guard) but those are some aspects I think are overlooked and maybe be more dominant then is step back and foul drawing.

[MoreyWins]

If Harden was on the Nets since the beginning of the season he'd easily be in the running for MVP.

[TroubleS0me]

He said 'I feel like I am the MVP'

In March so far
PPG 28.0
REBS 9.9
AST 11.9
STLS 1.8

TOs 4.1

FG%43.5
3PT FG 24.4

FT %.86. 2


any thoughts

[feyki]

Harden's averaging 33/10/13 with 133 Ortg in the 11 games this year when he played 40+ mins.

[sansterre]

Isn't this slightly blown out of proportion?

Comparing '17-20 Harden (hereafter Houston Harden) to Nets Harden

Usage: 36.8% Houston, 28.6% Nets
rTS%: +6.0% Houston, +4.5% Nets
OBPM: +8.4 Houston, +6.3 Nets

Nets Harden is kind of obviously worse offensively. By a fair amount. When people bring up Harden's portability they aren't talking about him turning into a pumpkin with good teammates, they're talking about him simply losing value.

Is he still good in Brooklyn so far? Absolutely!

Has he lost value? Also, absolutely.

[JulesWinnfield]

He’s an incredible basketball player and all people can do as we witness it is largely collectively shrug or say he isn’t fun to watch. I mean the Harden thread has like 30 posts, that’s a wednesday night against Sacramento for the Lebron thread. (That’s just one example, not using this place as the sole barometer for my comment). I can’t stand this Brooklyn team but the only silver lining in them winning would be seeing this generational offensive talent finally get the credit he’s due. Probably still won’t happen though, even though he is indeed the best player on this team

And I’m the furthest thing from a Harden fanboy. Just appreciate the incredible level at which he plays the game of basketball.

[TroubleS0me]

player of the month bump

[Ballerhogger]

Hes having a mvp year had not quit on the rockets and stat padded and got traded at the deadline he would be mvp talks with jokic

[TroubleS0me]

Steve Nash doesnt want to show all his "CARDS" (the Big 3) yet for strategic reasons...

[TroubleS0me]

He has a team now, no excuses.

[CKRT]

Isn't this slightly blown out of proportion?

Comparing '17-20 Harden (hereafter Houston Harden) to Nets Harden

Usage: 36.8% Houston, 28.6% Nets
rTS%: +6.0% Houston, +4.5% Nets
OBPM: +8.4 Houston, +6.3 Nets

Nets Harden is kind of obviously worse offensively. By a fair amount. When people bring up Harden's portability they aren't talking about him turning into a pumpkin with good teammates, they're talking about him simply losing value.

Is he still good in Brooklyn so far? Absolutely!

Has he lost value? Also, absolutely.

Saying he's lost value and then citing box score stats is a little silly, no? Obviously he is not going to rack up insane box score numbers on the Nets like he did with Houston, he's not playing the same role.

[sansterre]

Isn't this slightly blown out of proportion?

Comparing '17-20 Harden (hereafter Houston Harden) to Nets Harden

Usage: 36.8% Houston, 28.6% Nets
rTS%: +6.0% Houston, +4.5% Nets
OBPM: +8.4 Houston, +6.3 Nets

Nets Harden is kind of obviously worse offensively. By a fair amount. When people bring up Harden's portability they aren't talking about him turning into a pumpkin with good teammates, they're talking about him simply losing value.

Is he still good in Brooklyn so far? Absolutely!

Has he lost value? Also, absolutely.

Saying he's lost value and then citing box score stats is a little silly, no? Obviously he is not going to rack up insane box score numbers on the Nets like he did with Houston, he's not playing the same role.

I don't believe I cited any box score stats. If I was saying that he was playing worse because his points per game were down, that would be a fair argument. But I'm not. His usage is way down *and* his efficiency is down (relative to league average).

If your position is "His numbers may be worse but it's because he had to take on a new role in light of playing with stud teammates" that sounds deceptively like "He's having portability/scalability issues".

[CKRT]

Isn't this slightly blown out of proportion?

Comparing '17-20 Harden (hereafter Houston Harden) to Nets Harden

Usage: 36.8% Houston, 28.6% Nets
rTS%: +6.0% Houston, +4.5% Nets
OBPM: +8.4 Houston, +6.3 Nets

Nets Harden is kind of obviously worse offensively. By a fair amount. When people bring up Harden's portability they aren't talking about him turning into a pumpkin with good teammates, they're talking about him simply losing value.

Is he still good in Brooklyn so far? Absolutely!

Has he lost value? Also, absolutely.

Saying he's lost value and then citing box score stats is a little silly, no? Obviously he is not going to rack up insane box score numbers on the Nets like he did with Houston, he's not playing the same role.

I don't believe I cited any box score stats. If I was saying that he was playing worse because his points per game were down, that would be a fair argument. But I'm not. His usage is way down *and* his efficiency is down (relative to league average).

If your position is "His numbers may be worse but it's because he had to take on a new role in light of playing with stud teammates" that sounds deceptively like "He's having portability/scalability issues".

BPM is a box score stat. Usage just measures how many of his possessions end with a shot or a turnover relative to his team, naturally he is going to have less of both. I don't super get the usage of rTS% in this situation either, it's not like Harden's efficiency has taken any kind of meaningful hit, in fact here's the last five seasons:
2021: .618
2020: .626
2019: .616
2018: .619
2017: .613

Damn, huge hit. This guy clearly has portability issues.

[sansterre]

Saying he's lost value and then citing box score stats is a little silly, no? Obviously he is not going to rack up insane box score numbers on the Nets like he did with Houston, he's not playing the same role.

I don't believe I cited any box score stats. If I was saying that he was playing worse because his points per game were down, that would be a fair argument. But I'm not. His usage is way down *and* his efficiency is down (relative to league average).

If your position is "His numbers may be worse but it's because he had to take on a new role in light of playing with stud teammates" that sounds deceptively like "He's having portability/scalability issues".

BPM is a box score stat. Usage just measures how many of his possessions end with a shot or a turnover relative to his team, naturally he is going to have less of both. I don't super get the usage of rTS% in this situation either, it's not like Harden's efficiency has taken any kind of meaningful hit, in fact here's the last five seasons:
2021: .618
2020: .626
2019: .616
2018: .619
2017: .613

Damn, huge hit. This guy clearly has portability issues.

First off, if a guy shoots the same percentage on 40% usage as he does on 28% usage, he is a less valuable scorer at 28%. And while his reduced role is not his fault, that his value drops when he shifts to a lower role is a quintessential example of low portability.

Also, adjusted for league average:

2021: +4.0% rTS
2020: +6.1% rTS
2019: +5.6% rTS
2018: +6.3% rTS
2017: +6.1% rTS

Seriously. 28% usage at +4.0% rTS is simply not that amazing. 36-40% usage at 6% is historically great.

He is still good. But I don't understand how anyone can argue that he brings the same value to the Nets that he did to the Rockets. Which suggests a portability issue.