RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #39 (Reggie Miller)

[trex_8063]

2020 List
1. LeBron James
2. Michael Jordan
3. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
4. Bill Russell
5. Tim Duncan
6. Wilt Chamberlain
7. Magic Johnson
8. Shaquille O'Neal
9. Hakeem Olajuwon
10. Larry Bird
11. Kevin Garnett
12. Kobe Bryant
13. Jerry West
14. Oscar Robertson
15. Dirk Nowitzki
16. Karl Malone
17. David Robinson
18. Julius Erving
19. George Mikan
20. Moses Malone
21. Charles Barkley
22. Kevin Durant
23. Chris Paul
24. Stephen Curry
25. Bob Pettit
26. John Stockton
27. Steve Nash
28. Dwyane Wade
29. Patrick Ewing
30. Walt Frazier
31. James Harden
32. Scottie Pippen
33. Elgin Baylor
34. John Havlicek
35. Rick Barry
36. Jason Kidd
37. George Gervin
38. Clyde Drexler
39. ???

Target stop-time will be around 11am EST on Tuesday.

IMPORTANT NOTE:
At this stage of the list---even with our ranked vote system---it will be rare for a player to actually obtain a majority. Too often it will be something like 10-13 votes spread out among 6-8 players, and even when transferring to 2nd/3rd options, no single player will end up with a majority [usually].
To ensure that EVERYONE who beats the initial voting deadline has a say in who takes the spot, we've then been asking any ghosted votes their pick between finalists. (EXPECT this to happen, guys. And pay attention to which way the wind is blowing: if your picks contain 2 [or more] guys who are unlikely to be front-runners, that means you will be ghosted and/or I will need your opinion for a Condorcet verification.)

The problem we're having is ghosted voters are frequently NOT voicing their opinions in a timely fashion. I realize we all have real lives, and you're not living on RealGM.

However, what is frustrating [particularly given this part doesn't even need to be accompanied by any arguments] is seeing that posters HAVE been active on RealGM AFTER I've given notification that we need to hear from them on a certain Player A vs Player B......and still they make us wait (at times not showing up at all even after 24 hours, as was the case last thread).

That seems a clear indication that they are simply ignoring notifications pertaining to a project they're actively involved in, and potentially holding up the entire project by hours or even days per thread.
Occurring repeatedly, this could take a project that already [in the best of circumstances] lasts ~250 days, and extend it by another 1-2 months (we could watching the 2021-22 seasons on TV before we finish the 2020 project if this continues).

So be advised: if I find specific individuals are REPEATEDLY holding the project up in this manner, we [the mods] may opt to scrub that individual from the voter panel, at least for a period of time [like a penalty].

Spoiler:

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[Cavsfansince84]

39. Dolph Schayes
-12x all nba(7x 1st)
-1x nba champ
-Very good all around player, 9x top 5 in rebounding with good outside shot
-top 10 in scoring 11 times with career ts+ of 108 which is about 4% over league average
-known to be a solid defender from what I have learned about him
-posted very strong playoff scoring even after the shot clock(though efficiency was erratic)
-31st in career win shares

40. Reggie Miller
-incredible shooter obviously who just seemed innately wired for taking and making big shots in the playoffs as well as strong playoff performer
-led the Pacers in win shares 14 straight years while they lost in 4 ecf and 1 finals(while pushing MJ's Bulls to a game 7 in 98)
-very good size with decent athleticism and incredible off ball player
-career ts add of 3450 which is likely top 5 all time or thereabouts including 9 seasons with ts add over 200
-career ts+ of 116(8% above league average) while being 24th in career pts scored(nba & aba)
-18th all time in career win shares
-3x all nba 3rd team

41. Chauncey Billups
-very good all around guard also known for being clutch shooter in playoffs
-strong floor general
-led Pistons teams which made 5 straight ecf in rs win shares every year and in vorp 3x
-led 04 title Pistons in rs/ps wins shares and also won fmvp
-led league in ps win shares in 05 while losing finals in 7 games
-joins the Nuggets in 09 and they go from being swept in the first round the year prior to losing in 6 games in the wcf to the Lakers the following year
-respectably long prime of 9 years imo which isn't that short
-3x all nba(1x 2nd, 2x 3rd)
-2x all defensive 2nd team
-4x top 15 in mvp voting(high of 5th)
-30th in career playoff vorp

[Joao Saraiva]

Well been voting for Kawih Leonard for a while now. But here we go with Reggie Miller once again. So I'll bother voting if either Kawih, Billups or Artis have any traction.

[trex_8063]

1st vote: Artis Gilmore

.

Quoting 70sFan because I'm going to refer to the video clips he'd shared in post 17 of the #35 thread while scouting my own observations [doing it this way because to quote so many video clips can end up choking the page when it's loading]. Ironically---given he's my top vote---I'm going to focus on some criticism; I just want to be up-front in illustrating that I don't have blinders on to his shortcomings......

If you go to the section of individual plays (ABA game, in B&W) 70sFan had labelled "Prime Gilmore defensive analysis":

*the 2nd clip where 70sFan noted "bad boxout": I agree, and in the limited game footage I've watched of Gilmore I find this to a semi-consistent flaw. This is perhaps reflected statistically in Gilmore's massive individual rebounding numbers, but often mediocre [to poor] team DREB%, especially during the latter half of his career. He was so big and strong [and a good leaper early on], I think he got into the habit of simply drifting to the region he thought the rebound was likely to come off toward, where he could simply rely on his athleticism to secure the rebound. Let's call this the "Hassan Whiteside Syndrome": Whiteside is frequently guilty of this, and is no doubt a contributing factor to why the Blazers in '19 [with Nurkic] were 9th in DREB%, and then fell to 27th in DREB% in '20 with Whiteside at C (despite Whiteside's obviously superior individual rebounding rates).

We actually see more of this in the very next clip, which 70sFan labelled as a good play for contesting shots hard.....but it should be noted that if he'd put a harder boxout [instead of leaping and going for the rebound] on the initial shot, there likely wouldn't have been additional shots to contest.

**In the 8th clip (the one 70sFan compliments for the block on Elmore): it is indeed a nice block on Elmore, however it should be noted how easily Gilmore gives ground--->he gives no contact or resistance at all, but rather lets Elmore get right to the basket, again relying on his athleticism [length, and quick leaping] to block the shot. Now it's possible that he's deliberately playing less physical here because of the 3 fouls 70sFan mentions; however, I've seen similar plays from early 80s Gilmore [sometimes even when not in foul trouble], wherein the opponent ends up scoring (because Gilmore just wasn't quite as quick in '82 as he was in the ABA, and thus doesn't respond quite fast enough to come up with the block like he did on this play).
Consequently, I don't think his defensive impact is always as big as his shot blocking numbers might suggest; because sometimes he was hunting/gambling for blocks in this fashion, often at the expense of sound positional defense.

Now all of that criticism aside, there's no question he was a MONSTER defensive anchor in the ABA [when his youthful athleticism was at its zenith]--->which seems analogous to pre-back injury Dwight Howard. He just had so much length, strength, and quickness.....he was at times simply physically overwhelming to opposing offenses.

And offensively, we're talking about a center who scored a somewhat highish volume while frequently [six times] leading the entire league in TS% (and being in the top 5 at least a handful of other times). He did this thru elite finishing and close-range shooting [which saw him lead the league in FG% four times, with multiple other top 3-4 finishes], while also drawing an insane number of fouls (a career FTAr of .544----which is James Harden territory), while being a pretty sound FT-shooting big--->about 70% for his career (>71% if we remove the book-end years, and peaking at 76.8%).
And he frequently proved to be a force on the offensive glass, with a career OREB% of 10.8% (peaking at 12.9%).

So despite him being not much of a passer/facilitator and being a bit turnover prone [frequently brings the ball down low, inviting strips], the above factors combined to make him a considerable offensive force WELL into the 1980s.


2nd vote: Reggie Miller
A lot has been said about him already, particularly by Doctor MJ, as well as myself in the later pages of thread #37; fair bit of discussion in later pages of #38 thread, too.
Almost astounding longevity with Reggie, carrying 17 legitimately "useful" seasons, including probably an 11-12 year span where he was at least a fringe All-Star, peaking as a top 10(ish) player and likely All-NBA 1st/2nd Team level guard [whether he's got the award to show it or not, as discussed previously].

Off-ball style makes him fairly portable, and his gravity a benefit for teammates [something he gets no credit for in box-based metrics], similar to Steph Curry.
He consistently scaled up his scoring in the playoffs with little to no drop in efficiency, which is exceedingly rare among volume scorers.
Six CF appearances [and 1 finals appearance] despite never having the supporting cast that many of the other greats already voted in or with current traction have enjoyed. Led multiple elite offenses as the clear centerpiece (and really what more are you wanting from an offensive player?).


3rd vote: Pau Gasol
I'll tentatively break this ice on this pick (though Paul Pierce and Gary Payton are right here, too).
Try to drum up some arguments for him later.....

[Odinn21]

39. Reggie Miller
Miller got this spot over Payton, Zeke and Gilmore because his prime duration was significantly longer and those 4 didn't make up for it with their quality. I doubt if they made some TBH. Miller's off-ball play had such significance. O'Neal had massive off-ball presence / gravity because you just can't leave him 1v1. Miller OTOH, worked his ass off without the ball. He didn't have big assist numbers but despite being a 3 apg shooting guard, he created more than 5 apg shooting guards.

40. Isiah Thomas
TBH, not entirely sure about this pick. But my remaining candidates other than Gilmore for this spot have some sort of too much winning bias to be addressed. Thomas was declining when the Pistons started to be the Bad Boys, Payton's reputation is mostly coming from his 1996 season and I already talked about Pippen.
Thomas' on court production was getting lower while the team was getting better. I'm not saying there's a direct correlation. It's just that, it can be interpreted something like Garnett scoring 18.8 ppg in 2008 for the Boston team. Lower than his usual prime average and already on the decline. But it still mattered.

41. Artis Gilmore
His peak, prime, longevity combo is a bit too hard to argue against at this point. Especially his longevity (not that he lacked prime quality or duration). 10+ good quality seasons is extremely impressive.

I'm certain about Miller's spots but not so much about Zeke's and Gilmore’s spots. In recent days, I guess I'm gravitating towards Westbrook over Zeke and Payton. When the time comes, I might change my selection.

[penbeast0]

Best remaining big is probably Gilmore, Dwight Howard would be the main competition unless I'm forgetting someone. Pau Gasol? Maybe Robert Parish or Kevin McHale? Maybe even Schayes? I've heard Lanier's name come up but eye test, he was a somewhat lazy, passive defender and the stats (outside of outlier season 1974) don't indicate anything different to me . . . either the individual ones or the team defensive Drtg.

Reggie is the best scorer left. His trouble is he brings almost nothing else. But his efficiency, playoff heroics, and career length make this a reasonable spot for him. Other players getting mentions, Paul Pierce, Sam Jones, Paul Arizin; if we are in that territory you should also be looking at Alex English, Adrian Dantley, maybe even Klay Thompson (but not Bernard King, Dominique Wilkins, Allen Iverson).

At PG, Gary Payton gets you points but without efficiency, strong defense but not the playmaker of the top PGs. Isiah Thomas was an underrated tough defender, overrated scorer, good playmaker. Russell Westbrook has the big numbers, Chauncey Billups is the Reggie Miller of PGs but without the longevity.

Trying to think who I am missing. Great defenders like Mutombo and Bobby Jones but Mutombo has bad hands, Jones is the Manu Ginobli of forwards with limited ability to stay out on the floor for his NBA career, same for Kawhi except Kawhi also seems to have locker room issues and his defense waned as his offense waxed. I would probably go for both Jones and Manu over Kawhi though I know Kawhi is already on people's radar, maybe Chauncy Billups as well. I'd rather have less minutes a game but a consistent rotation than someone who doesn't play a lot of the games though another playoff run could certainly swing my perception.

1. Reggie Miller
2. Artis Gilmore
3. Chauncey Billups (?) Again, willing to listen

[Dutchball97]

1. Kawhi Leonard - It's clear I'm much higher on Kawhi's career value than most here and I don't really have much interesting to say about him. He has a very high peak, multiple very strong prime seasons alongside it, can win in different roles and environments, total play-off contribution is higher than a lot of players already voted in or who are in consideration here despite doing so in less games in most cases.

2. Reggie Miller - On first look not that impressive but he has multiple play-off runs at a very high level along with a generally good track record in the play-offs. I had him behind Drexler but ahead of Gervin.

3. Isiah Thomas - He has some major question marks around him but at this point he should be one of the frontrunners nontheless. He has a strong regular season peak in the early-mid 80s, while posting multiple very impressive play-off runs in the late 80s. His role for the back to back championship Pistons shouldn't be disregarded.

[DQuinn1575]

No change from last vote

1. Reggie Miller
2, Kawhi
3. Sam Jones
Sam Jones has great playoffs throughout the 60s - here he is versus Oscar and West:

g mp fg fga ft fta reb ast pf pts fg% pts/36
62 Jones BOS 7 247 68 134 19 26 42 21 18 155 0.507 22.6
62 West LAL 7 309 73 160 72 85 35 19 25 218 0.456 25.4
63 Jones BOS 7 218 63 122 35 44 37 17 27 161 0.516 26.6
63 Oscar Cin 7 327 80 165 74 83 87 60 22 234 0.485 25.8
63 Jones BOS 6 232 57 126 34 39 44 19 15 148 0.452 23.0
63 West LAL 6 264 76 155 25 33 41 27 11 177 0.490 24.1
64 Jones BOS 5 196 51 108 24 31 25 9 14 126 0.472 23.1
64 Oscar Cin 5 235 47 118 47 55 48 28 12 141 0.398 21.6
65 Jones BOS 5 199 55 117 29 33 24 13 14 129 0.470 23.3
65 West LAL 5 210 59 139 51 59 28 17 13 169 0.424 29.0
66 Jones BOS 5 177 53 104 27 35 15 10 18 133 0.510 27.1
66 Oscar Cin 5 224 49 120 61 68 38 39 20 159 0.408 25.6
66 Jones BOS 7 249 56 138 48 54 45 23 29 160 0.406 23.1
66 West LAL 7 317 88 171 61 70 45 36 20 237 0.515 26.9

Jones 42 1518 403 849 216 262 232 112 135 1012 0.475 24.0
Opp 42 1886 472 1028 391 453 322 226 123 1335 0.459 25.5

Miller was very efficient scorer, which I rate highly, and was solid in rest of this game and a noted clutch performer.
Kawhi is better defensively, not as efficient a scorer, but will surpass Kawhi and a few others the next time we do this.

[trex_8063]

Well been voting for Kawih Leonard for a while now. But here we go with Reggie Miller once again. So I'll bother voting if either Kawih, Billups or Artis have any traction.

I understand voter frustration, but this isn't a national election with 150M voters where you can convince yourself your vote doesn't matter.........we're looking at ~10-13 votes per thread: your vote might be the difference between these guys "having any traction" or not. And regardless of whether or not your top pick(s) are finalists, you're ALWAYS given a say in wins between whomever the finalists are (IF you put in a vote before the deadline).

You can't really tell who the front-runner is based only on 1st-place votes alone (Miller led Drexler 5-2 in that in the last thread, and still the spot went to Drexler).

And while Reggie does appear the heavy favorite for this spot, his top two competitors [based on prior threads] appear to be Artis and Kawhi [your top picks], with arguably Isiah sneaking up on the outside.
Of course, that's assuming you show up again in the voter spread with votes for Kawhi and Artis at 1/2......in a panel of only 10 or so voters (spread among a half-dozen candidates), you going AWOL could entirely change that dynamic.


Further, if you're so against Reggie getting in this early, why didn't you chime in and settle the last thread?
YOU were the last silent ghost vote we were waiting on at the deadline. By being silent you left an opening for Miller to win it in runoff, instead of deciding it yourself.

And I gave you TWO notifications regarding this, with you making one reply after the first, and another reply after the second.....but neither stated your pick between Reggie and Drexler.
If you were undecided between them [and thus uncomfortable taking a side] that's fine, but in the future if that's the case please let me know early on.......because otherwise it just postpones the conclusion of the thread unnecessarily.

[Joao Saraiva]

Well been voting for Kawih Leonard for a while now. But here we go with Reggie Miller once again. So I'll bother voting if either Kawih, Billups or Artis have any traction.

I understand voter frustration, but this isn't a national election with 150M voters where you can convince yourself your vote doesn't matter.........we're looking at ~10-13 votes per thread: your vote might be the difference between these guys "having any traction" or not. And regardless of whether or not your top pick(s) are finalists, you're ALWAYS given a say in wins between whomever the finalists are (IF you put in a vote before the deadline).

You can't really tell who the front-runner is based only on 1st-place votes alone (Miller led Drexler 5-2 in that in the last thread, and still the spot went to Drexler).

And while Reggie does appear the heavy favorite for this spot, his top two competitors [based on prior threads] appear to be Artis and Kawhi [your top picks], with arguably Isiah sneaking up on the outside.
Of course, that's assuming you show up again in the voter spread with votes for Kawhi and Artis at 1/2......in a panel of only 10 or so voters (spread among a half-dozen candidates), you going AWOL could entirely change that dynamic.


Further, if you're so against Reggie getting in this early, why didn't you chime in and settle the last thread?
YOU were the last silent ghost vote we were waiting on at the deadline. By being silent you left an opening for Miller to win it in runoff, instead of deciding it yourself.

And I gave you TWO notifications regarding this, with you making one reply after the first, and another reply after the second.....but neither stated your pick between Reggie and Drexler.
If you were undecided between them [and thus uncomfortable taking a side] that's fine, but in the future if that's the case please let me know early on.......because otherwise it just postpones the conclusion of the thread unnecessarily.

I have Drexler above Reggie. Missed those notifications on time, I'm sorry for that.

[LA Bird]

Reggie choking in the last few runoffs... hopefully he gets voted in here so I can move on to Gilmore and other players.

1. Reggie Miller
2. Artis Gilmore
3. Paul Pierce

Reggie - One of the best offensive players in the playoffs. All time level combination of volume and efficiency and maintained that production against the toughest defenses like the Knicks which even prime Jordan sometimes struggled against. The Pacers were a +7.5 postseason offense over a 10 year period, one of the best ever despite fairly little offensive talent besides Reggie. Great longevity and his off-ball style fits well next to other superstars.

Gilmore - Highest peak in ABA behind Dr J but never reached the same level in the NBA. His impact based on his missed games in 80 and 84 suggest solid impact but it is still concerning for a center to be on a below average defense for ten straight seasons. I feel like NBA Gilmore is similar to late 80s Moses in how they can go through the motion and get their 20/10 numbers despite being not near their peak levels.

Pierce - Solid all around skillet and one of the top impact players in both 15 year RAPM and prime/career WOWY. A great scorer who, like the other 00s guys, kind of get underrated historically for playing in the slowest era in post shot clock NBA. For example, if we compare the top scoring seasons between Pierce and Drexler,

01 Pierce: 25.3 ppg on 92.6 pace
02 Pierce: 26.1 ppg on 92.5 pace
03 Pierce: 25.9 ppg on 90.9 pace
06 Pierce: 26.8 ppg on 92.2 pace

88 Drexler: 27.0 ppg on 103.6 pace
89 Drexler: 27.2 ppg on 103.9 pace
90 Drexler: 23.3 ppg on 102.3 pace
92 Drexler: 25.0 ppg on 99.0 pace

Top PPG adjusted to 100 pace team
Pierce: 29.1, 28.5, 28.2, 27.3
Drexler: 26.2, 26.1, 25.3, 22.8

[Doctor MJ]

Vote:

1. Reggie Miller
2. Artis Gilmore
3. Kawhi Leonard

Repeating my last vote, though I'm tempted to go with Ray Allen over Kawhi. Also find myself thinking Kevin McHale deserve traction.

For my Miller argument though I'll think I'll share this post I made this morning from another thread:

Many here may think Miller was a great player but Drexler was much better. These numbers show that he is a more all-around player, and other stats show it moreso, but his scoring here doesn't do him justice of how great a scorer he was.

You’re expressing the box score-centric worldview which is what needs to be discussed, because it is the thing people need to realize has biased people to see the game through a particular lens that is artificial and problematic.

When you look at things through the box score you see columns as dimensions and thus the “well-rounded” metaphor.

The reality is that Miller was contributing value the entire 24 seconds with his activity.

He was not going after rebounds, but his team (and all teams) have guys for that, they don’t need all 5 guys doing that. Miller playing a different role is not him failing to get rebounds, it’s him finding another niche to add value that fits with rebounding teammates.

Similar for assists. All 5 guys can’t be making plays that potentially lead to assists at the same time. You need at least one guy out there who can be your on ball guy, but you don’t need all 5 out there doing it.

When a sport has more players, guys take on more different roles. These roles in general should be given equal respect because - if they are functioning well - they are all essential to the team reaching the level it does.

A particular player within his role may, however, be quantitatively more painful to replace within their role and thus be more valuable.

However the nature of traditional box score statistics leads us to conflate a certain productivity with actual value, and not just in basketball. In American football fans for a long time basically didn’t even see what linemen were doing. The idea that left tackle would become at times the 2nd most valuable position just wouldn’t make sense to them.

Reggie Miller essentially created a new position. Something that works extremely well with on-ball playmakers and rebounders, both of which were already in existence on every basketball team everywhere and thus Miller’s new position didn’t really ask for much you can’t expect to have at the ready.

The fact that the position emphasized off-ball movement when everything box score is ball-defined meant that this new position was bound to be underrated. The fact that it also happened to involved shooting 3’s at a time when people didn’t understand the value of 3’s is also of course part of the problem.

But now we know more. We know the direct value of 3’s, and we understand the indirect value caused by gravity and spacing. And we know tHe Warriors just had the most dominant half decade in a very long time on back of a team built around two guys who could play as Miller-types (Splash Brothers).

We also know that still in 2020, very few teams have a Miller-type player who is even close to Miller himself. Not a lot of guys today capable of a season at 24 PPG at 64% TS, and think how much harder that was 30 years ago back before these concepts were truly understood and actively being exploited?

What we saw with Miller is an emergent exploit grow out of a maturing game 4 decades after the NBA got its start. It shouldn’t be underestimated how much value you can get out of finding an exploit.

[Hal14]

1. Isiah Thomas
2. Kevin McHale
3. Willis Reed

One thing that's interesting about Isiah is that during the 87-88 through 90-91 seasons (the years Isiah had the most team success) he somehow got significantly less votes in both MVP voting and all NBA teams, despite the fact that his stats across the board were just as good - if anything, maybe a slight dip but not enough to justify such a significant drop in MVP and all NBA votes - especially considering he was now having much greater team success - and considering he continued making the all star team every year. And typically when a guy has more team success, they get more MVP/all NBA votes..not less.

Below you'll find the year, followed by Isiah's finish in MVP voting, followed by which all NBA team he made

*Also keep in mind there was no all NBA 3rd team in 81-82

82 - 17th in MVP - didn't make all NBA team
83 - 16th in MVP - all NBA 2nd team
84 - 5th in MVP - all NBA 1st team
85 - 9th in MVP - all NBA 1st team
86 - 9th in MVP - all NBA 1st team
87 - 8th in MVP - all NBA 2nd team
88 - 12th in MVP - didn't make all NBA team
89 - 17th in MVP - didn't make all NBA team
90 - 13th in MVP - didn't make all NBA team
91 - 13th in MVP - didn't make all NBA team

My theory as to why he all of a sudden had such a big dip in MVP/all NBA votes despite much greater team success is because people truly started to hate the Pistons beginning with the 87 ECF finals, which was a grueling series between the Celtics and Pistons. In 87, the Celtics were a blue collar team that was very well liked, their players got lots of votes for awards, evidenced by Bird winning 3 straight MVPs in 84-86..and in 87, both Bird and McHale finished top 4 in MVP voting.

Then in the 87 ECF, this happened:

Watch on YouTube

Following the 87 ECF, the Pistons became the most hated team in the league. Not only for brawling with the Celtics in the ECF, but also because of how physical and borderline dirty they played overall. The next year in 87-88 - the Pistons were officially established as a hated team. All Pistons players saw a big dip in MVP/all NBA votes - especially Isiah who was considered the ring leader of the Pistons. The other guy on the Pistons besides Isiah who was seen as the poster boy for the Bad Boys image was Laimbeer. If you look at Laimbeer and his all NBA selections and all star appearances before the 87-88. season and after, you'll notice the same discrepancy.

Isiah was top 10 in MVP voting 4 years in a row from 83-84 through 86-87. He made 1st or 2nd team all NBA five years in a row from 82-83 through 86-7. Then somehow magically, the votes he received plummeted from 87-8 through 90-91 despite the fact that he put up similar stats, was still an all star every year and had much greater team success. It's because of bad boy image. People didn't like him and they didn't like Laimbeer. Dumars (despite the fact that hew as on the hated Pistons team) was more of a nice guy, of anyone on those Pistons teams, he had the best image and was the least likely guy on the team to mix it up and get in someone's face, least likely Piston to throw a punch, etc. That's why a) he finished with the same ranking in MVP voting as Isiah in both 89 and 90 and b) Dumars made all NBA third team in 90 over Isiah despite the fact that Isiah was clearly the better player and was the heart and soul of the team, according to this article and many others:

https://exnba.com/articles-news/isiah-thomas-on-who-could-be-bad-boy-on-80s-pistons/

Isiah made all NBA 2nd team in 82-83, while finishing 16th in MVP voting. And that was BEFORE there was a significant bias against the Pistons. So I'm actually being conservative here by saying that he if we remove the bias against the Bad Boys Pistons and specifically Isiah and Laimbeer, then this is what Isiah would have achieved:

-All NBA team (either 1st or 2nd team) 9 years in a row
-Top 10 in MVP voting 5 years in a row

What player still left on the board can compete with that?

Still not convinced Isiah deserves consideration here? How about:

-12 time all-star (in a 13 year career)
-1 time NBA Finals MVP
-2 time NBA champion
-2 times was the best player on an NBA championship winning team (Isiah led the Pistons in minutes, points, assists and steals - in both the regular season and playoffs in both 88-89 and 89-90)
-Only player ever (other than Magic and Oscar) to average over 19 PPG and over 9 APG for his career
-Joined a Pistons team which was on the brink of extinction - there was talk about the team moving to a different city - or possibly shutting down entirely - they went 21-61 the year before Isiah joined the team. They improved their win total by a whopping 18 games in Isiah's rookie year. 2 years later they made the playoffs and 6 years after that they were champions.

Still not convinced? Perhaps you missed this piece of NBA history:

Watch on YouTube

Isiah with 43 points in game 6 of the 88 NBA finals - against the Showtime Lakers who were in their dynasty. He scored 25 of those points in the 3rd quarter on a severely injured ankle. One of the most heroic performances of any NBA game, especially one in the NBA finals. If not for the phantom foul call on Laimbeer:
a) this would have been arguably the greatest performance in a NBA finals clinging game in history
b) would have been 3 titles in a row for the Pistons
c) Isiah would have been finals MVP in 88

Even Lakers coach Pat Riley calls it a phantom foul:

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2103545-pat-riley-admits-84-lakers-benefited-from-phantom-foul-vs-detroit-pistons

To anyone who says "oh Laimbeer got away with other fouls so he deserved to get called for that one"...no, that's BS because a) refs hated Laimbeer, if anything they were out to get him and are more likely to favor the Lakers with calls since the Lakers were showtime, they were the much more liked team and had a much better image than the Pistons and b) the Phantom Foul was called with 14 seconds left in the game - it was an elimination game in the NBA finals. You're comparing apples to oranges if you say Laimbeer got calls in the 2nd quarter of this game so it's ok that the phantom foul was called. Obviously a foul being called on a dude attempting a game winning shot with 14 seconds left - that call carries MUCH more weight and significance than a call in the 2nd quarter.

Also, someone posted in the other thread something like "oh, even if the foul wasn't called on Laimbeer, if Kareem misses that show there was a Lakers player in position for the offensive rebound and put-back. To that I say, no! Look at this video, pause it at the :41 mark because that is the exact moment this whistle blows for the foul. At that moment, neither team looks to be in better position for the rebound - if anything, the Pistons look to be in slightly better rebounding position if you pause it there. If you let the video keep going another second or 2 after the whistle then yes, the Lakers player under the basket is in better position to get a rebound but it was way after the whistle at that point so why would the Pistons keep going for the rebound?

And no, if you think that magical game vs the Lakers was a fluke and if you think that was the only iconic performance by Isiah, you're wrong:

https://theundefeated.com/features/pistons-isiah-thomas-dropped-16-points-in-94-seconds-1984-nba-playoffs-against-knicks/

The bigger the stage, the more pressure is on, the better Isiah delivers. Something you can't say about pretty much any player left on the board at this point.

McHale - did everything you could want from a PF. He could score (with more effective post up moves than just about any player ever), he could rebound and is also one of the best post defenders of all time. He beat opposing bigs down the floor and had defensive versatility (at times would defend the 3, 4 and 5)..oh yeah and he won 3 championships, 5 NBA finals appearances. I think a good comparison for McHale is Pippen. Both had really good team success while playing as the no. 2 guy alongside one of the best players ever (Bird, Jordan), neither has great longevity but both had a solid 3 or 4 years where they were arguably the best in the world at their position and a legit top 5 or 6 player in the league. I think who was better between McHale and Pippen is pretty debatable (McHale a better scorer, about even on D, maybe a slight edge on D for Pippen). Pippen got in several rounds ago in this poll, so right here seems about right for McHale.

[Hal14]

Reggie - One of the best offensive players in the playoffs. All time level combination of volume and efficiency and maintained that production against the toughest defenses like the Knicks which even prime Jordan sometimes struggled against. The Pacers were a +7.5 postseason offense over a 10 year period, one of the best ever despite fairly little offensive talent besides Reggie. Great longevity and his off-ball style fits well next to other superstars.

I could see this as an argument if we were deeper into the project. I'm just not sold on Miller being a top 40 player of all time. You say how great offensively he was but he was not a good passer, defensively he was decent but never a difference maker, not a good rebounder. Good scorer in the half court but not great at either leading the break or finishing on it. Not great at handling the ball. Great shooter, yes. But for a top 40 player of all time I expect more of an all around game - especially since he never won a title and only played in 1 NBA finals.

Some might even argue that Miller doesn't even belong in the HOF:

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/1081043-reggie-miller-is-not-hall-of-fame-worthy

[LA Bird]

Reggie - One of the best offensive players in the playoffs. All time level combination of volume and efficiency and maintained that production against the toughest defenses like the Knicks which even prime Jordan sometimes struggled against. The Pacers were a +7.5 postseason offense over a 10 year period, one of the best ever despite fairly little offensive talent besides Reggie. Great longevity and his off-ball style fits well next to other superstars.

I could see this as an argument if we were deeper into the project. I'm just not sold on Miller being a top 40 player of all time. You say how great offensively he was but he was not a good passer, defensively he was decent but never a difference maker, not a good rebounder. Good scorer in the half court but not great at either leading the break or finishing on it. Not great at handling the ball. Great shooter, yes. But for a top 40 player of all time I expect more of an all around game - especially since he never won a title and only played in 1 NBA finals.

As I posted in the other Reggie thread, a versatile skillset is only valuable insofar as it can be translated into actual results. It's not the skillset that matters but what you do with it that counts. There are only a handful of players who can score at Reggie's level and lead offenses just as good in the playoffs. Reggie is one dimensional with his shooting but it doesn't really matter since he helped his team more with that one skill than any other player left did overall.

Some might even argue that Miller doesn't even belong in the HOF:

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/1081043-reggie-miller-is-not-hall-of-fame-worthy

Some might also use a better measure of a 3pt shooter's scoring efficiency than FG%.

ElGee wrote a much more detailed article of Reggie's career if you are interested in reading more than just the basic stats/awards:
https://backpicks.com/2018/01/18/backpicks-goat-29-reggie-miller/

[trex_8063]

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Near guarantee you'll be ghosted. Save us some time and please give me your order on Reggie vs Artis vs Kawhi [just in case] before the deadline.

[Magic Is Magic]

Hello all, placing my Vote for #39 ranking



1. Bob Cousy
2. Kawhi Leonard
3. Dolph Schayes


1. Bob Cousy: What didn't this guy do? 13x All Star, 6x Champion, 8x Assist Leader, 1x MVP, and 10x 1st team All NBA. I see people are putting Baylor over Cousy and I'm not mad at it, Cousy did have the better team after all. But it's hard to argue against 6 rings to Baylor's zero. 6 vs 0 is huge, and of course Cousy's MVP which Baylor never won. Cousy was also top 3 in point scored for a total of 4x just like Baylor. This is a no brainer for me but Baylor was already voted in ahead of Cousy.

2. Kawhi would benefit a lot more if he didn't "load manage" and added to his longevity. After 2021 we will get a better idea if this changes but I doubt it going forward. However, he has done some extraordinary things such as winning back-to-back DPOY awards and 2x FMVP. If I recall correctly only Kawhi and Hakeem have ever achieved such a feat (Being a B2B DPOY winner and winner of 2x FMVP). His 2019 run was also very impressive: 31/9/4 on splits of 49/38/88 (very close to entire 50-40-90 run on over 30 ppg en route to a FMVP. Who here left to rank has done anything close to a Finals run on 31/9/4 with near 50-40-90 splits? I'm still waiting for this because I think the answer is no body.

If you value greatness on both ends of the ball then it would be hard to put many guys left ahead of Kawhi. He is elite on both ends, but again, his lack of longevity is hurting his resume along with him needing at least one regular season MVP or Scoring Title. Nearly all of the greats have them but him but I guess if we're voting in Ewing than peak doesn't matter that much so Kawhi should definitely be voted in.


3. Dolph Schayes: 12x All NBA 1st and 2nd team selections, 12 all-star selections (top tier level among who is left to have 12 and 12 of both). Top 5 in MVP 3x, Top 5 in Points scored 4x and a Champion (and likely FMVP winner too). It would be hard to argue against 12x all star selections and 12x all nba 1st/2nd team selections at this stage. For example, guys voted in before Dolph did less with these All NBA and All Star Selection metrics, such as Baylor with 10 and 11. Wade had 5 and 13. Pippen had 5 and 6. Frazier had 4 and 7. Again, Dolph was 12 and 12.

[euroleague]

1. Bob Cousy
2. Isiah Thomas
3. Bill Walton

1. Cousy was a revolutionary player in the NBA, and he was a huge contributor on many championship teams. His stats may not have been good, but as a PG, much of his impact wasn't in his scoring stats. His elite playmaking set the stage for Russell's passing to develop, and his transition offense helped the defense by tiring out opponents. It's no coincidence that the Celtics were consistently first in ppg - his offense also allowed for offensive rebounding to be more effective.

Many people hating on Cousy never actually watched these games. I myself haven't watched enough of them to be an expert, but what I have seen of Cousy has him as an elite floor general whose impact went far beyond his stats.

2. Isiah Thomas - Another PG whose impact went way beyond the box score. People often credit Bill Russell's leadership - but Isiah was perhaps the best leader in the NBA's history, in my ranking. Most teams, when hated like the Pistons, can't maintain cohesion and unity with all the players being proud of their roles and completely buying in. Isiah led the team in fostering an image that was scary, brutal, and disliked by most... while keeping the team proud of their image and identity. Furthermore, his on-court dominance was as a floor-general... players like him and Rondo didn't always have the best stats, but their impact on teams is undeniable, as we saw on the Bulls when Rondo went down.

3. Bill Walton - This may be a lot higher than most have him, but his run at his best was so elite, both in the regular and post-season, i feel comfortable putting him this high. MVP, FMVP, would've won DPOOY, 6MOY with the Celtics on a GOAT level team. McHale had a bigger role on those teams, and will probably be my next selection, but Walton's brief period of being arguably the best player in the league, and winning Portland's only title, put him this high for me.

Happy that Isiah is getting traction, but I feel Cousy is quite left out here. He was a great floor general, and Havlicek's coming overlapped exactly with his decline... hiding his impact from when he declined/left. Which is unfortunate, because from what I can see he was very close to Pettit, and a better team player, at his peak.

[trex_8063]

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Would likely be a good idea to give me your opinion on Miller vs Gilmore vs Kawhi [MiM, obviously I know you have Kawhi at the top of these three, but inform me of the rest please].

[Joao Saraiva]

Votes
1. Kawih Leonard
2. Artis Gilmore
3. Chauncey Billups

I'm sorry 70sFan, I should have included Artis previously. I'm gonna give him a pass for #2 here. Still not above Kawih for me, but I've been reading and checking stats. He's not one of the players I've watched a ton, but I'm convinced he and Kawih should go next. But man, Kawih definitely deserves to go in the top 40!

Top 10 seasons by PER among guys getting traction and the ones I'm voting:
1. Kawih Leonard 27.6
2. Kawih Leonard 26.9
3. Artis Gilmore 26.6
4. Kawih Leonard 26
5. Kawih Leonard 26
6. Kawih Leonard 25.8
7. Artis Gilmore 24.1
8. Clyde Drexler 24.1
9. Clyde Drexler 23.6
10. Billups 23.6

No seasons in the top 10 for Isiah Thomas or Reggie Miller. Kawih clearly dominates PER wise in the regular season, having 5 of the best 6 seasons.

Top 10 seasons by WS/48:
1. Kawih Leonard 27.7
2. Kawih Leonard 26.4
3. Artis Gilmore 25.9
4. Chauncey Billups 25.7
5. Billups 25.4
6. Artis Gilmore 25.3
7. Kawih Leonard 22.6
8. Kawih Leonard 22.4
9. Artis Gilmore 22.2
10. Chauncey Billups 21.6

Yet again, Kawih Leonard dominates this category. I can't even see Reggie Miller, I can't even see Isiah.

Well, I don't want to make the post too long, but BPM goes the same way with Kawih dominating, followed by Artisand then Billups.

Top 10 seasons in playoffs PER:
1. Kawih Leonard 31.5
2. Kawih Leonard 28.6
3. Kawih Leonard 27.9
4. Kawih Leonard 27.8
5. Reggie Miller 24.6
6. Artis Gilmore 24.2
7. Artis Gilmore 23.5
8. Reggie Miller 23.4
9. Chauncey Billups 22.9
10. Clyde Drexler 22.8

Kawih Leonard, yet again stands out against the group. Followed by Gilmore, and then a mix of the others really close. Reggie raises in the playoffs, but for me he's still not sniffing Kawih's best as suggested by PER.
Among the ones I listed, I'm definitely way higher on Billups intangibles than on Reggie's or Isiah's.


I'm not gonna post the rest of the advanced stats, but man Kawih is definitely up there in a way the others aren't.

Accodales wise Kawih is among the best too, with 2 FMVPs and 2 DPOYs. He finished 3 times in the top 5 voting for MVP, losing slightly to Gilmore but well ahead of everyone.

Playoffs wise, I believe that Kawih, Isiah and Billups are the top 3 success wise.

Rate it as you wish, but Kawih is definitely a tier up from the other guys.

I understand cumulative stats don't go Kawih's way, however the gap seems too big as far as reaching higher heights.